American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Gov. John Patterson, 3 of 4

in some ways [Interviewer]: in this very tough place. [Interviewee]: The federal law dealing with schools... [Interviewer]: [interrupting] ?inaudible? I don't want to talk too much about that ?subject? because it kind of takes it away from what ?we want?. [Interviewer]: Okay, the the interstate commerce regulations, the, [there] were some federal United States Supreme Court cases dealing with the the uh, intergration of public facilities like a bus station- public bus stations stations and cafeterias in bus stations and things like that. But you had conflicting, you had state laws requiring segregation in some of those facilities; in some you didn't; you had a municipal ordinances in most. Municiple ordinances required segregation; uh in the, separate- required separate bus stations, separate waiting rooms, separate bathrooms, and things of this kind. Right ?there in? Montgomery, where this incident took place you had two separate places for people to eat, based upon color, you had separate

bathrooms there, separate lunch counters, right there at that bus station and all this was by city ordinance, you see. So you had all these conflicting laws, and everybody wanted to enforce his own laws, you see. And the governor was really caught between a rock and a hard place. A governor was carrying water on both shoulders and trying to survive politically, and at the same time, trying to do his job. This was a tough situation think to been in. [Interviewer]: In some ways, um, I'm gonna just [Interviewee]: What I wish I'd a- ya know, I think about it lots of times and and I've said this, if we'd a swept in there, at the bus burning, and sacked all that bunch up, uh, it might've been the smart thng to do, yeah. But we didn't do it. And we didn't do it because we were trying to low-key the whole thing. We We didn't want to make it bigger than it was, ?inaudible? trying to suppress it and maybe that was the wrong way to do it. It did ultimately cause us to have to pay a greater

price in Montgomery. [Interviewer]: So at one point- so at this point, you've got kind of the Federal Government,ya know, ?personified? I guess ?inaudible? and some ways by RFK, ya know Bobby Kennedy, who's hammering you on this side. But you also have your constituency on the other, wanting something different. Talk about being in between these two things, and what do you owe to the people of Alabama. [Interviewee]: Now I had other programs; I was trying to get money for schools and I was trying to build highways and roads and docks, and I was a big law enforcement man and all of this. And I had a big program in in the legislature and I had to keep the good will of the majority of the legislature if I want to operate as a governor and do the things that i wanted to do. And all these people in the legislature were segregationists. So I had to- I had to deal with this, too. Then I had to deal with it with the problem of municipal ordinances that required segregated public facilities and things. And then ?even? the federal

law was not all that clear - at all - about it. So, uh demands were being made on me by Robert Kennedy and them. Some of the demands I couldn't deliver on. Uh, and and survive politically ?in myself? Robert Kennedy never took any consideration that anybody elses political problems concern him. He was concerned all the time with the political popularity of him and his brother. I don't fault him for that, but at the same time he was very difficult to deal with and he made it hard and could very well have contributed to some of the problems that we had. But anyway we, we probably could've done a better job of it, but, but but we know hindsight is a mighty fine thing [Laughs]. [Interviewer]: Too bad we can't live in it. Would you would you, do you wanna tell that thing you said about JFK and RFK coming from the same mother? ?Do you want to talk about that??

if you're comfortable. [Interviewee]: [Laughs] Sure, ?that's alright?. John, John Kennedy and I became friends and we we remained good friends and I was frequently a guest at the White House and everything; had access to the White House, until the the freedom rider thing came along and we fell out. I fell out, not with John F. so much, as I did with Robert. Uh, but, after that they didn't have- I didn't get more-no more invitiations to the White House. And uh, and then also you know they'd suck me in into the Bay of Pigs thing, too. I got Alabama involved in the Bay of Pigs thing; it cost ?four? Alabama lives. And I felt like that they owed me, really- they didn't owe anything in regard to the intergration and segregation problems. I felt like they owed me more courtesy than they gave me, when I really got got in difficuly. And I think that Robert exacerbated that whole thing by his

conduct in the way he conducted himself. One of the pictures of him that came out in all the papers at that time, was he was spending the night in his office at the Justice Department, and he was a-sitting there, reared back with his socked feet up on the desk. And the picture went all over the country was the Attorney General is listening in on all the things going on in Alabama with the freedom rider thing, and he's up there with his socked feet on the desk, and everything. This ?is? not a good way for the Attorney General of the state to act. Do you think so? Yeah. [Laughs] I thought he owed us more, more deference than he gave us; he treated us like employees in his office. [Interviewer]: Talk about real quickly, the differences between the personalities between JFK and ?RFK? [Interviewee]: Yeah. John Kennedy was a very fine fellow to be around; very pleasant and intelligent, and smart, and a lot of fun, and uh,

he was good company. Robert was right the opposite Robert was abbrasive and rude and always centered upon his own self, and uh, was not a good guy to be around. And I I preferred the President to the Attorney General. I think he probably appointing the Attorney General his- appointing Robert his Attorney General. [Interviewer]: Did you want to say anything about the two ?inaudible? the same mother? [Interviewee]: Yeah, I've said many times, that uh, knowing both of them, like I got to know 'em, that it very difficult to conclude, or to think, that John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy had the same mother; they were so different. They were completely different...personalities. [Interviewer]: ?inaudible? [Interviewee]: The Montgomery...uh, we

we- Martin Luther King came into town and went to this church, right across now from the police department, but that was a vacant lot in front of that church at that time. And they had a big rally and had all the freedom riders along with King there at the church, one night. And uh, they had a riot there. And that's when I called out the National Guard, and we took charge of whole thing and shut the whole thing down, and then get to later we're escorted them to the mississippi fault King at all. I think when King came to town that sort of exacerbated, ?inaudible?, made it bigger and uh, finally it forced us to call out-, forced me to call out the National Guard; ?inaudible? keep somebody from being killed. [Interviewer]: I ?didn't? want to go through that whole thing, um, but let me just go back ?inaudible? Can I? [interviewee]:Sure, yeah. [Interviewer]: ?inaudible? somewhere else. So, the first wave of riders flies out to New Orleans...

[Interviewee]: Right, right. right. [Interviewer]: The second wave comes in; Bull Connor tries excort 'em out of town. They sneak back into town and actually beat him into town. [Interviewee]: Right. I think John Lewis was in that bunch, wasn't he? Yeah. [Interviewer]: At that point in my opinion that, um with the second ?inaudible? wave of riders, it's when you have this kind of ?set-to? with JFK. [Interviewee]: Right. [Interviewer]: JFK ?calls em? cause he wants you to guarantee... Talk- tell me about that. You know what I'm gettin at. [Interviewee]: I made a very bad mistake there. [Interviewer]: Now I don't want you to be in the present; I want you to tell me ?inaudible?. [Interviewee]: Okay. This a, uh...let me think about that a minute, now. [Interviewer]: So, I think it's the second wave comes in, and after they sneak back, you know, they realize that's not going to ?inaudible?, they're not going back to Tennessee. they're gonna try and get through Alabama. And

Kennedy calls you. Talk about that. [Interviewee]: Yeah, I was in my office and the legislature was in session and he called me and I had been anticipating this call, because I figured that when the showdown finally came, I also had learned that a company of infantry from the Second Infantry Division at Fort Benning had been flown into Maxwell Field and hidden in a hangar out there. field and hitting an ira and i have learned that you can't do anything like that without refinement of some atlanta ga and I didn't trust them anymore and I figured they were fixin' to take over; fixin's to ?seize? ?inaudible?. Now, I got- I get this call; I'd been anticipating this call. This call is gonna come from the president and what's he gonna say? He's gonna say, uh "Can you guarantee the protection of these people?" It's very difficult to guarantee the protection of a group of people that won't do what you say, that are

scattering out over town, it's hard to do. If you hesitate one minute about saying, "No I can't. I don't know whether I can guarantee their protection or not." Or, "I gua- I will guarantee their protection," and you fail to guarantee their protection, and somebody gets hurt. If you say, "I can't guarantee their protection," he sends in the federal troops from Maxwell Field and takes over, which would be terribly embarrassing to me and be a terrible slap at the state of Alabama. If you say, uh, "Yes I can guarantee it," and you fail, then he'll send the troops in anyway. This was a call I didn't want to take, because either way that call went, I'd be set up. And so, I I said, "You tell the president, tha-you tell him that I'm in the Gulf fishin', that I'm not here." Now uh, I had to be pretty mad to do that, you know. But I did it, and then he calls the lieutenant governor who's upstairs where the

senate's in session and the lieutenant governor comes dashin' down to my office; Albert Boutwell from Birmingham, comes da-, "?Inaudible? the president's on the phone." I said, "?I? understand he's on the phone now." And I explained to Albert, ya know, why I shouldn't talk to him, and why he shouldn't talk to him either, ya know. But anyway, uh, I- Albert Boutwell talked to the president about it, but I didn't. I didn't. Now, this was a big mistake on my part. I, ?this? is, you owe more than that to the office. You owe it to the office of president, to respond if the office of president contacts you. In this country you owe that, ya know. But I didn't and that later on, later on I had occasion to talk to Ross Barnett about the Ole Miss situation. And I told Ross, I said "Now Ross, be careful now, because you're gonna get that call. And when you get that call you better be awful careful how you discuss that discuss that thing, or you'll find yourself occupied by federal troops, which you wo-

don't want," ya know. So, anyway, that's the story of a that phone call and this was a mistake. I think not takin' that call and I didn't take it. And, of course, this didn't help me with the president either. This helped end my association with him. [Laughs] He did inquire to [uh] he My state campaign manager Charley Merriwether was also my finance director, and he hired Charlie away from me and made- put Charlie on the export/import bank board. And every now and then, even after that and up to the end of his life, he would call Charlie occasionally and say, "Well, how's John doin'?" Ya know. He'd inquire about me. [Laughs] [Interviewer]: ?inaudible? [Interviewee]: For a person who's not directly involved with that kind to understand the reason why you would be reluctant to take the call, you['re] gonna be put in a situation, in which you a-, you a-, it's lose, lose.

If you say you can't do it, and you probably should say that you can't do it, because- unless you can control their actions, you['re] goin to get the troops. If you say, "I can do it," and then fail to do it, and these people would not, ya' know, the people would get off the bus and scatter over town. They weren't stayin' around where you could look after them. You'd have to have a bodyguard with everyone of 'em to guarantee their safety. and protection. This was hard to do when they was ramblin' around over town was full of klansmen. [Interviewer]: I'm gonna ask you ?inaudible? if you can, uh, I want you to tell me that story again. We got kind of a long version. Now ?inaudible? a short version. and he said no his job

I was in my office in Montgomery the legislature was in session upstairs and I have been following this really... on a almost minute to minute basi was we were totally consumed with it the freedom rider thing. and I thought it out very carefully about our position and I knew that that was the company infantry hidden out in Maxwell field in a hanger on second infantry division at Fort Benning Ga waiting to move in and take federal action which was unprecedented in this country for their decision and interference in state And I thought that out very careful and I had figured that I might get that call from the president putting it to me in such a way as either way you answered it you'd lose and you'd be occupied by federal troops. Now if you said first right off the bat I'm sorry can you guarentee the

safety of all of these people of while they're in your state if you said "no I can't," federal troops move right it and take over. The governor himself admitted from his own mouth that he couldn't maintain order in his own state and you'd be you'd be finished. Now if you said yes I can guarantee their safety knowing full well that you probably couldn't guarentee it because they were scattering out all over town you didn't know where they were what they were doing and people in town that you didn't know looking for folks to get in trouble with, if you said "yes I can guarantee it" and then somebody got hurt then you get the federal troops anyway and then you have a bad bad situation politically for sure politically and I preferred not to take that call and to run the risk of setting myself up. And now in hindsight in

in hindsight I think that was a mistake and you don't refuse to take a call from the president of your country if you're an American citizen even if you don't like it [laughs] [Interviewer] i haven't been in that situation. so um do you know julia there I lied but I tell you looking back I probably wasn't the only fellow lying in that whole thing either I just lied and they pressed and they pressed from the office the White House Office and they said he can't be reached they said well where is he get him on the phone if he can't be reached he's out in the gulf fishin' and when they lietenuent governor came down there, he was a much

older man than me, sort of like my- a father figure to me; he came down there and he couldn't believe that I refused to to take that call...and he took it. [Laughs] That ain't funny, ya know, ya know it's really not funny. [Interviewee]: What was- In all of this ?inaudible? (inaudible) this is not my last question (inaudible) I just want to talk about this for a minute. In all of this what did you feel was kind of the worst moment for you; in this whole kind of freedom riders, freedom ride ?inaudible? what was the worst moment for you in the whole thing? [Interviewee]: Well, when I refused to take the call of the president, that was a very very bad moment for me and has haunted me ever since. Ya know, really. People can't understand that. That's hard for me to explain it ya know. And if I had it all to do over again, I'd take their; take their call and try to be as blunt as I could about it and try and make him understand what our situation was. But I thought we's being set up and I still think

think we were being set up...for something. Uh, Now the the, when they had the riot at the church, two or three nights later some nights later, when King had- Martin Luther King had flown into Montgomery and had come to the church, and all the freedom riders were in the church there. Uh, and uh, had a big rally. [Interviewer]: Let me start over again. I want to get into all of that ?inaudible? they has a big rally. The next incident though, I think was a very low moment for me, was sitting there in my office and hearing that riot gettin' louder down the street there that night, after it got dark. Uh, and I sent of mine, a state trooper named Tom Poser(?) was an aide - I sent him down there - I couldn't - Floyd were supposed to keep me posted and I wasn't getting any calls calls from Floyd; I could hear that thing down there getting louder. It was right near capitol. And I sent Tom Posey down there, ?said?, "Go down there Tom and find out was goin' on and

call m- find a pay station phone and call me, here at the governor's office." And I had a colonel there from national guard assigned to me as a liaison officer, just in case and I had to declare martial law, real quick. Already had the proclamation of martial law prepared and was on my desk. and the passionate tone down the phone call back in a little bit from a pay station down there and he said, "Governor, you better call 'em out; you better call 'em out, this thing's gonna get out of hand." And uh, and, and... and I signed the proclamation and handed it to Colonel Shepard uh, and I said, "Hear, call 'em out." I already had- we already had a combat team; a regiment of troops in the Dixie Graves Armory within a block of where that was. And Floyd had two or three hundred of ?inaudible? close by. And the city- when the crowd rushed that church, the city police hug back and didn't do a

thing. And Floyd, Floyd and his few people with him beat them to the door of the church and drew their weapons on them, and just in a matter of minutes the National Guard was moving in with their rifles and bayonets, and that thing ended in just a few minutes. And we put the whole place on the martial law and took- took over all of the activities in Montgomery. And that ended the whole affair. This was a very, very low point for me; it really was. [Interviewer]: Let me ask you a question about that, because it, uh, it must have been a horrible moment you know a ?inaudible? moment. You know, and I just want to get it clear, you know, cause you're in your office. and uh, I ?just? want ?inaudible? to tell me the story again. And you can hear, what's going on out ?inaudible? Tell me that story from the beginning. So, you're in your office. [Interviewee]: Yeah

I'm sitting in the governor's office and I have that with me my aid, Liutenant Tom Tom Posey, state trooper, and a colonel with the National Guard, Colonel Shepard is a liason officer with me, cause we had anticipated that we might have to call out the guard if the thing got out of hand. And I had already prepared on my desk a proclamation of martial law, on my desk. And I could hear the church where this has taken place, this thing, was only about a block from the capitol, and you could- I had my window up, and I could could hear the din going on down there. And what was actually happening down there, the, the uh, the federal government had brought in five hundred marshalls, ostensibly to protect the freedom riders. Uh, five hundred federal marshalls, Robert Kennedy said that they were trained in riot control; they were not - they were, they were process servers. These guys, these were middle-aged, fat men that served papers.

And they'd armed them and they had gone down there formed a ring around the church, about five hundred marshalls. And oh cousre, the city laid back in the shadows - the city police and then we had a few state troopers right close by former right there, with Henry Gray and the adjutant was there, and right nearby within two blocks, was a whole combat team; a regiment of infantry, national guardsmen with bayonets and rifles ready. We were ready. And I could hear this din down there, and what happened was the- when it got dark the toughs, the young toughs began to come out and talk to marshalls, and somebody start throwing bottles and when they started throwing bottles at marshalls, uh ducked their heads and covered up, and when they did, the crowd ran over 'em and headed for the door the church where King and all the people - the freedom riders - and a full church of people were in there, ya know. And Floyd, Floyd and his people beat 'em

to the door...and drew their guns. amd kept 'em, from going into that church and of course, in the meantime ?they? called the Guard and I had issued the proclamation. They turned over a couple of cars and set 'em on fire. So the thing was a real din goin' on down there. And just a few minutes it was over - and that was over and we kept ?them? city of Montgomery under martial law for about a week, until the freedom riders were escorted to the Mississippi line. Yeah. [Interviewer]: Why didn't- hadn't you called out the National Guard before? [Interviewee]: Calling out the National Guard and declaring martial law is a very, very serious thing to do. It supersedes all constitutional rights; you can arrest people without warrants, you can search 'em without warrants, you can jail 'em on without a warrants. This is something that an official should be very, very reluctant to do...cause that is not a good remedy.

I coulda called them out at early early on, up in Anniston, but I'd a had a bunch of state troopers running around over the state wielding billy clubs and stuff like that without any without anybody having any rights. No, I, I-, that's a- martial law. I got acquainted with martial law in Phenix City, when Governor Persons sent the National Guard into Phenix City to bust up that gambling thing over there, when my father was killed. So, I had a little experience with martial law and it's not a very pleasant remedy. Yeah. The reason was I was reluctant to do it. [Interviewer]: I heard a story that uh, that in the church, ya know, Martin Luther King mainly, the others were ?inaudible? ?calling? out to RFK to tell him what was going on, and you were listening in on the call. Is that true? [Interviewee]: No. [Interviewer]: ?Inaudible? you know, you have some great statements about ?inaudible? at the time. How did you feel when, you know, if the freedom riders were already here, ya know, you got Anniston, the bus burns, and you got the riots in Birmingham, you got the riots in Montgomery, and

now you hear that Martin Luther King is coming to town. How, how'd you feel about that? [Interviewee]: Well I wasn't happy when I found out that he was going to town because this would exacerbate the overall problem of the the interest in the thing and it would draw attention more attention to it and it would create- bring out more of the crazies, ya know. And I remember one one day, uh, Floyd Mann was telling me that he walked up, he saw a stranger standing in front of the- right near the capital, in front of the supreme court building on the corner, and there's a white guy and he walked up, and he knew that he didn't like he should be there, and he walked up up to him and said, "What are you doing here and where are you from?" He said, "Well, I'm from Oklahoma." ?inaudible? "What are you doing here?" "Well I heard some stuff was goin' on over hear. I come over hear to get involved in it." You see? You had this kind of- well, during the height of this thing, Norman Rockwell [Patteron means George Rockwell] and his nazis show up in a bus; you remember him? With their Sam Brown belts on and so forth. We just arrested them and took them on to Mississippi. Uh, ya know, it was safe enough to arrest a

a nazi without not having to worry about being prosecuted for not having a warrant. [Laughs] But ?inaudible? you had all this crazy stuff. Then when when King- when the word came that King was coming in, about twenty marshalls and several carloads of marshalls went out to the airport in Montgomery and picked him up when he came in and escorted him to the church. This probably wasn't a good thing to do. But uh, it put the government right on the side of the freedom riders. And this irritated a good many people in the way this was done. And I- now don't get me wrong - I'm not against Martin Luther King, ya know, The black citizens in this country wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for him. and for what he did