American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Ted Gaffney, 2 of 2

[Gaffney] And arrived in Selma, we found, uh, we we got off and they did a little testing [clears throat] and then when it was time to go we were told that the bus,Trailway bus was burning in Anderson, so then we all were very concerned about whether or not any of the Freedom Riders or anybody was burned up and so, the, when it was time for our bus to leave they didn't leave on time so these burly guys got on the bus and said, This bus can't leave here like this so they grabbed the Freedom Riders in the front of the bus and threw them down the aisle into past the middle part of the bus so someone in the group had dropped

a Jet magazine that had pictures of Freedom Riders in it, so they was looking at the pictures and then they wanted to know, well, who were those guys back there, which one of them was me, so they mentioned that and we, let's go back, can't see, so I had my camera under my coat, and they didn't notice that I had photographed them down tearing them down the aisle and so the, every, every time we stopped for a stoplight or anything, they were all afraid and looking around and the bus had to put on breaks real hard one time so they didn't come back to see who the people in the back of the bus was, now when we arrived in Birmingham, I - [Producer] Let me cut, let me ask you cut. [Cameraperson] Yes. [producer] When you took the pictures? [Gaffney] Well, I had this

camera, I had just purchased for this trip, because when I started off, I, on the trip from Washington, I had this 4x5 graphic camera and I arrived in Greensboro, I knew that I had to get rid of that because it was in the way, so I shipped it to Jet Magazine in Chicago. Now after, when we was in Selma, and they was beating the Freedom Riders, I made two shots and stuck the camera in my coat and I just sit there like that, so when they discovered a Jet magazine on the floor with some Freedom Riders pictures, then they wanted to talk to each other about who was this guy in the back meaning me, and

Samuel Booker, so they didn't, they said, well, lets go back there and see what, by that time the bus put on brakes, and everybody was looking cuz we didn't know if it was a mob outside to burn our bus, or if it was the police, I was hoping it was the police [laughter] because they wanted to come back and I know if they had caught me with this camera I would've been dead meat, so we went on into, uh, Birmingham and I kept the camera in my coat and when the bus pulled up, There was a mob looking like a thousand people and they had these iron pipes about 18 inches long, and they started beating the Freedom Riders, I went in the side where the coloreds supposed to go and

sit in the restroom, I mean in the waiting room of the bus station and you can see over where the white people sit too, there was a cut-out that separated you so I could here them clunking them on the head, clunk clunk clunk and slamming them against the wall so it got quiet, then somebody said, there's another nigger in there, I said oh, hell [laughter] and so I just, I had gotten rid of my camera bag and coat, rolled up my sleeve, and when the, so the door flew open, I didn't look, I just made like I didn't see anybody there, so they opened the door, and then they left. I sit there, and sit there, and sit there, I

said I don't know how long I've been sitting here, I don't hear the police coming so, maybe, I didn't sit there no more than 10 minutes, but it seemed like it was an hour and a half, uh, because I didn't know where we were supposed to go when we arrived in Birmingham, so I just got up and walked on out where the coloreds go and went around the corner, I didn't see nobody and I was going up the street and I saw 2 black men coming down the street and they said, have you seen any Freedom Riders, I said Freedom Riders? I'm looking around, I say, yeah, I'm with them. [laughter] So it turned out, they were the Birmingham deacons, so they said, I said, he said, where are the rest of them? I said I don't know, they might be dead,

I don't know 'cause they beat them on the head with these iron pipes and everything down there, so they went down to the bus station, so then they came back, I didn't go down there with them, I'm outta there, so they came back and so they said they didn't see anybody, I said, OK, I have my camera down there, Let me go get my camera, I had put in a locker, and so I went and got my camera out of the locker, came back, they went with me and came back, and they drove me up to Reverend Sandlemore's house. i found out then that those who were on the Trailway bus that was firebombed were in the hospital, uh, there in Birmingham, so they called Reverend Sel- [Producer] They're beating them up, they're up here beating them up, you're sitting there, what did you do? [Gaffney] Well, just

normal, I had it already preset click click [mimicking camera shutter] click, I only took 2 pictures. [Producer[ I want you to do that for me and, and just tell me, tell me again. [Gaffney] You don't me to put in ?facing?. [Producer] Yeah. [Gaffney] OK. [Producer] It's beautiful, tell me the Feds got on the bus, OK, and I want you, uhh, if you can sir, Gaffney, to give me a ... and, you know, while they're beating, alright? [Gaffney] Yes. [Producer] OK so, OK so, go ahead. [Gaffney] We were informed that the Trailway bus full had been firebombed and when it was time for our bus to leave, these thugs got on it 5,6, maybe 7 and said this bus can't go anywhere like this and they started beating, the whites and the black Freedom Riders or anybody else they thought was a Freedom Rider in the front of the bus. Now, there were people on there who who wasn't Freedom Riders who were black, but they were sitting in the back. So, at- as they started beating them

I know my job is to take the picture, so I grab my camera, took the picture, 2 pictures, put the camera in my coat and sit there and just look around innnocently as I could but scared because did did they see - i should't have, but I made 2 flash shots, i said no, but they didn't see the flash, so when they uh tried to determine who the blacks was on the back of the bus; some all of them was just people, ordinary people traveling they didn't know anything about the Freedom Ride I'm sure they were scared too, but I guess they said I'm back here where I'm supposed to be, but then when the hoodlums start trying tried to determine whoo the blacks were in the back in the bac of the bus,uh that's what scared me and

I say now, if I jump off the bus, where am I? I- wouldn't know where to go, and that would be the worst thing to do because when y'ou're alone, thats when a mob will hang you or whatever, and so, was nothing for me to do but sit there, now Booker and Book and I didn't sit together, we never sit together, we sit in different places places on the bus, well we didn't make no plan of that, but that's what we road the bus down there. [producer] you said that uh, you told me before that either you, you can put the camera down now, you told me that either you or or or or Simeon,I can't remember, maybe or both of you, like took a newspaper and poked holes in it and were looking through it [Gaffney] No I didn't have no newspaper [laughter] [producer] Yeah you did, maybe Booker did that, I thought you said he was like looking through the holes of the newspaper. any way so. [Gaffney] But Booker told me, afterwards that

one of the hoodlums had a gun [Producer] So um when you got to Birmingham, cut for a second, one thing. When you get are we rolling?, the bus pulls into Birmingham uh what happened? [Gaffney] when the bus pulled in Birmingham, you could see looked like thousands of people, they even had kids in the crowd and they had these iron pipes and as we were getting off the bus, they start beating the , they didn't actu- I don't know [stammering] determine whether you was a Freedom Rider or not, but they just start beating beating everybody that's getting off the bus, so I went in, so I went in a side door there, I don't know if everybody everybody supposed to go in that door, getting off but, as we were going in there, they started beating up the Freedom Rider's in the hallway

and I was in front of them, so I went in the part where I saw this colored lady sitting down and had 'colored' on the door, and she had a baby, so I said i have to get rid of his camera, I got rid of the camera and uh I heard them say 'There's another nigger in there". So I probably was sweating, so I wiped the sweat off of me me and tried to look as innocent, rolling my sleeves up, and trying to look like an Alabaman, I don't know how they look but I took my towel off, opened my collar, and they opened the door, and I don't know how many were coming, I didn't look at them, cause I might have shown fear if I had looked that them, they might have known that I was with them. as a Freedom Rider, not as a photographer, because they didn't see the

camera, and then [clears throat] after everything quiet down, I walked out and turned a corner, looking around, didn't see anybody I said where are they, was wondering what happened to Booker, and Booker was uhh aged himself and I and frail, [laughter] I said I hope they didn't beat Booker with those iron pipes but uh, I start walking up the street and I saw these two colored men coming down the street and they asked me, had I seen any Freedom Riders, I looked left and right [laughter] I said, uh I'm with them. They said, You're with them, where are they? I said they might be dead or something, I said they were beating them with iron pipes

a while ago when the bus came in, so they said [producer] thats good, thats good, we got that story I wanted to ask you tell me about now you know as as as as the bus pulls into Birmingham, right you know you get off the bus and there is this mad mob there what did you feel? how did you feel? what did you feel like? [Gaffney] My feeling when the bus ride, rode into the Birmingham station [doorbell] [dogs barking] [producer] cut, lets cut. get off and in there into the station, what did you feel like? [Gaffney] Well, when the buss arrived at the Birmingham station, you could see all these people out there, I know that I had to to go the opposite way or do something, [producer] Cut, okay you know what go ahead, when the bus ride arrived in

Birmingham I saw these thousand, it looked like people, even teenagers, some like they was 9 and 10 years old and I understand that they have been issued pipes like this, some was a little longer, and the police had given them 5 minutes to do whatever they wanted to do so they were clunking them upside the head with these pipes and you could hear the sound, the clunk, clunk so I got off the bus, and I round after half of the people who had gotten off and moved around like I didn't know what was going on and I went into the colored waiting room and that's where I put the camera into a locker [producer] ok, uhh just

just just tell me over again that you know that I took off my coat, rolled up my sleeves, tried to look as Alabama as I could, playing with the baby, anything not to be not to be recognized. Do to disguise yourself [Gaffney] Well I rolled up, took my coat off rolled up my sleeves, took my towel, put my coat and camera into a locker, and I was glad I had some change [laughter] to put into the locker, so nobody would be able to go in there and get my camera uhh out, because I had this film on there showing what happened in the bus in Selma and so then when these hoodlums came down the hall, I could hear them say, there's another nigger in there So I, the lady there who had a baby, I

started playing with the baby, and uh when they opened the door door so they held it open for, it looked, about 10 seconds, and I was uh, didn't look at 'em because I didn't want them to see the fear in me [laughs] so they closed the door and [producer] that's good um if you could um, if you could cut for a second. Oh this house and threatened to rape his wife because he was broadcasting what happened at the bus station the day before [producer] can you just say 15 minutes? just say 15 minutes [Gaffney] 15 minutes [producer] couple times, they gave him, say they gave him 15 minutes [Gaffney] 15 minutes that's what I heard [producer] you say they gave them 15 minutes [Gaffney] I heard that the police gave them 15 minutes [producer] good, ok, umm cut [Gaffney] the night umm

I answered the phone and Attorney General uh Kennedy's secretary was on the phone she want, he wanted to speak to Booker, and he spoke with Booker and Rev. Shuttlesworth and uh, I don't know what was discussed but in the meantime, Rev. Shuttlesworth received a phone call that those who were on the bus, firebombed bus were in the hospital, and the mob was up there to get them. And they said we can't have this up here, you all have to get these people out of this hospital, so the Birmingham deacons again got in their cars, drove up to the hospital and even the blacks and the whites that was riding with them, laid on the floor and they came up to Rev. Shuttleworth's house when they arrived there the the the

whites weren't white, they was, it looked like they had been in a coal mine dark from the smoke, they was all smoked up and it was a terrible sight. and then uhh to see the Jim Peck with the patch on his head where he had 52 stitches from getting beat with a iron pipe [producer] umm [coughing] ?you said to see Jim Peck get with 52 stitches in his head, it was what? you didn't finish the sentence. [Gaffney] Hmm? [Producer] you said to see Jim Peck beat, with 52 stitches in his head. How did you feel when you saw Jim Peck with 52 stitches in his head? [Gaffney] No he can't, uhh I felt bad for him, not only

because he was old, but he was doing something to help his fellow Americans, and I was very much ashamed at something like this would have to happen for people of his color and then to see all that think for several days those whites still had, couldn't get the smoke out of their faces [producer] ok so the next day um the Freedom Riders get back together and go to the Birmingham bus station and try to get a bus cause they want to continue, talk about the decision what happens in the decision not to continue, cut [camera person] cut [Gaffney] The next day in the bus station, we got- had a-

little group together [unintelligible] We were going to Montgomery Alabama, and as we waited on the bus, Rev. Shuttlesworth was in there with us, so they were going to arrest him for loitering in the bus station [laughing] so so he went and bought a ticket. He wasn't going anywhere [laughter] so we there and, we had a little conference after we'd found out the bus driver said there are a thousand waiting for you, outside of town You all are Freedom Riders, I am not, I have a family. [laughter] [laughter] so I'm not driving this bus, so in the meantime Up there is Howard K , Smith, uh the

TV personality, now they had said they was going to kill him, he was way up - they didn't know he was in there. so after a while, none of the buses would take us, so we decided that we would fly out of uh Birmingham and so the deacons were put back to work again, the deacons came, picked us up and as we were going to the airport, to see the country roads and I remember this one scene where this man, 2 or 3 people in at a barbershop, they came out there and the guy was getting his haircut and he had the thing that men you know, have on when they cutting their hair they was watching us, because it was being announced on the radio, that they're going to the airport

so when we get to the airport and uh I went over to the counter and bought some insurance So, [laughter] by that time all these hoodlums and some of them, like I say 10,11,12,15 years old and some was 30 and 40, and so, they came into the airport and Booker had asked me what you don't need insurance, I said okay, now when they announced that the first plane wasn't going to fly us out, uhhh Booker went over and bought some insurance I said hey, you said we didn't need insurance [laughter] and so we stayed there we missed 4 or 5 planes, and in the meantime

than their call wasn't and the return to home sent a person from Washington down to the airport and that's the only way we got out of there now, while we are waiting, all these people with all the We gonna get 'em today, we gonna get 'em, I said to Simeon Booker of Jet now, [stammering] you might be nonviolent, they might be nonviolent, but I'm not, I said If somebody hit me, they gonna have Nikon on forehead, cuz I'm gonna bust them in the head with this camera [laughter[ because they gonna kill me anyway, cuz I got, I had the camera out, I wasn't trying to hide it then, so when we were flying out of uh Birmingham, and

we arrived in , uh New Orleans, as we were going to our place to stay, the police was out there taking down the tag numbers, of all the cars that was driving us [producer] let me, let me cut, cuz I wanna, I just wanna ask you some, one more couple questions maybe about bout, I mean was it, How did, What was the feeling like? [Gaffney] Well I, in the airport and all of that is the man who's just joining in, uh chanting We gonna get 'em tonight, we gonna get 'em tonight, I didn't see any policemen then them i don't see any boys' look anywhere this Freedom Ride, so I knew we were on our own, but I always hoped that the FBI was somewhere in that crowd, but it was not to be.

[producer] mmhmm, you said, you told me before, that you had never phoned before, and that you you were you were ready, you would've flapped your arms to fly out of there, how was that? Tell me that one again [laughter from Gaffney] so how how were you [Gaffney] Well, when you're trapped, you want to get out the best any way you can, if the airplane don't go, you try to fly yourself [laughter] so you know uh you know you're not going to leave the ground [laughter] but, the Attorney General, Kennedy, kennedy center's man and men to rescue us that not all of us would've been killed that night, because, they still had those iron pipes [laughter] and I I can look at them, some of them were little kids I could work 2 or 3 of them myself, but then after them, what you [laughter] you you you're meat [laughter]

it goes both ways did your brother would fight it and that was scarier and then they weren't too scared to be scared so i've mellowed flown before good when that plane, got off that runway [laughter] I'd rather take a chance on getting killed in a plane crash, than to get beat to death uhh by hoodlums with iron pipes [producer] ok cut, let keep rolling, umm just tell me again, how did, so so after all of this has gone down, finally that plane is going down the runway, as the wheels leave the ground, and you're finally getting out of Alabama, island that that you're um, finally getting, getting out of Alabama [Gaffney] Oh, when the plane was going down the runway, I never, worried about flying, I [stammering]

wasn't afraid to fly, 'cause Iwas afraid to be on the ground in Alabama. [producer] and just say that the, that you had never flown before but you, y'know weren't afraid to fly because you weren't safe on the ground in Alabama, so as you were leaving, how did it feel? [Gaffney] I had never flown before, and I was felt relief going down a runway, I had no feeling of fear of flying then [laughter] and I now as play a vet no it's all my head taken and get permission for them to take that plane off, 'cause they had to get uh order probably from the Attorney General Kennedy [producer] were you disappointed at this, keep going, were you disappointed at the civil, that the Freedom Rides were over?

[Gaffney] Was I dissappointed? No, because, they're were many people, say this can't be and SNCC and other so right groups claim no to