American Experience; 1964; Interview with Jann Wenner, Founder of Rolling Stone, part 1 of 2

So the only other request is just that, you know, my questions get edited out. Rephrase, not salavishly, but that would be great. So you're in Berkeley, 64? What class were you actually? Where's now the grant? Yeah, where are you class of? 64 to 40 to be 68, so I started there in fall of 63. Okay. So what does that mean? 67? I came to Berkeley in the fall of 63 right after high school. I was raised in the Bay Area, so it was a natural thing. My mom actually went to Berkeley. And got there, and I think by the end of when all of a sudden done, graduated, it didn't graduate, had less than two years, didn't even achieve full sophomore status. There's just too much other stuff going on Berkeley became just overwhelm

the fun. Getting to Berkeley in the first year is great, because it's a high school student. You all sudden discover what really serious work is like. And so it's really exciting. Academics, you're a great professor, as I was an English and Bollywood side major. And the level of learning just goes up so much, and it's really challenging and interesting, and exciting. But soon enough, the kind of like the extracurricular activity has kind of overtook the academics. And at that time, Berkeley was really considered the other great university besides Harvard. It was its Harvard's rival in terms of Nobel Prize winners, and every other measure they had in SAT, all the stuff. So it was quite a serious place. But when I got there, I really quickly joined a little group called Slate, which is a really important political group that had start off, you're looking like you don't ever heard of it. But you've never heard of the connection to Slate magazine today, or is it just an interesting sort of thing. But what was Slate all of a sudden?

Slate was an off-campus political group that was the leftist radical group, the Dominic Canvas politics until the free speech one came on. Slate was the organization, for instance, that ran the protests at the House on American Activities, community hearings that took place in San Francisco when it came out in 1960. And was the premier leftist political group? I joined that right away, and what I did, one of the things I did is we started a small thing called Slate Sublimat to the General Catalog. General Catalog being the official list of all the courses and the professors and what you could take. And the sublimat was based on student reviews. And so we would circulate questionnaires out of the campus and they'd be submitted anonymously. And basically two or three would come on a particular course. And I'd just rewrite all these things. Reviewing professors and very established stuff going

on on a basis of three anonymous people. And so obviously the cleverer, the comments were the more they came in. So whether it was valid or not, it was certainly a little bit valid, but it really shook things up. It was the first time students would review courses. And after while after I left, the Slate Sublimat was actually purchased by universities now published by the university. But you said your mom was Berkeley, maybe she was a bomb thrower from the way that? No, no, no. I mean my parents were in Democratic politics forever as far as long as I can remember. I was raised in it. So politics is very comfortable to me. What was, when you got there, I mean you obviously chose to go into one of the more radical parts of the university, but the consensus wasn't necessarily. Berkeley in the 60s hadn't really happened. No, I mean. Great, thank God there are all kinds of things. Is it cold? Yes. I think, you know, I can check that and get out of here.

When I got to Berkeley, it was very much in a traditional mold of colleges at that time. As I said, it was at that in Harvard, the top ranking academic campuses. And it was known for its rivalry with Stanford, which is certainly like a social active campus. And there was a strong Greek system there. And, you know, the radical politics really was just way at the edges. You couldn't find it. I mean, I joined this group called Slate, which is a really small group. And it was the most radical thing around. But kind of what happened was that the free speech move involved is kind of as out of kind of really a series of blunders and mistakes by the part of the University of California administration. I mean, at any way along the whole path of the thing, from beginning to end, have they ever bent

or been flexible on any small little item, you know, such as letting the tables be set up for the distribution of literature, 15 feet into campus property, this never would have evolved. But it was that kind of like unthinking, doctrinaire, rigidity on the part of, otherwise extremely liberal and smart people, Parker, and so on like that, that kind of escalated thing. And it kind of partially was just a sheer thing about authority. It wasn't so much about the principles of free speech. I mean, Berkeley, for God's sake, had free speech of every kind possible. I mean, the members of the faculty, what could go on in the campus, what could go on off campus. I mean, certainly the most liberal thing. But in a way, it was more about authority than anything else. You know, we will tell you, we will make the rules, not you. Yeah, but what's said was, not consequence. I mean, the distribution of literature. I mean, if you would look at it today, that I guess what I was being destroyed is that I was really pretty harmless stuff, you know, and I'm some

socialist stuff for, you know, typical student lefty things. If you walked down, was it bankrupt way or whatever, what was it like? Well, bankrupt, well, telegraph was kind of a street that led right into campus, which had coffee shops on it and bookstores. And, you know, it was like beer joints and burger joints and one coffee house towards the end, you know, the Mediterranean Cafe, where the so-called bohemians and lefties hung out. And then bankrupt, which paralleled the campus across it, really came down from fraternity roles, from both law schools, up where I lived at the top of Bencroft way. And it was like ordinary, just American campus, all the things that you would imagine a campus would be, you know. And it was at that intersection of telegraph in Bencroft, where the man chose the campus was, and where the first deal went down in terms of where these car tables could be set up to distribute literature. And that's

what led to the free speech with that there. And it was that intersection from that coffee shop, that coffee house, and fraternity role, where it all came. And you had everybody there, right? I mean, students for Goldwater, for God's sake. Oh, everything, you know, it was, it's ridiculous whether it started over yet. Yeah. And so, you know, what was, what was the event that sparked the movement in a way? Well, actually I kind of forget, but I think it was that the police came to remove these tables. Yeah. Perhaps was that it. Yeah. And that started demonstration. That, that I think led to the occupation. I said, okay, so, okay, so it led to this demonstration. But what they wanted the rest of Jack Limeron, they put up a police car in the center of the Sproul Plaza, which was the main entrance to the place. And all of a sudden, I guess or a thousand students surrounding a police car. And he was kind of trapped in and want

to be trapped in. But that was it. And that led, you know, lo and behold to the occupation of Sproul Hall. And the rest of I think 200 or 700 students within a couple of days. But I was at that, you know, it was all of a sudden just galvanized the campus. Every is there. And there's a police car and Jack Limeron is making speeches from the police car and they gave them, you know, the housepeak all kind of stuff. And we're soon up, Joan Baez showed up and she was standing there singing to the crowd singing with God on our side and the building song. And that was for some of the scene, Joan. And I guess over the course of a couple, in the course of a couple of days, students took over the main administration building and then the police were finally called to the Oakland PD. It was called that at one night and arrested several hundred students. And then I was there for that and watched all that. I was working not only was I a member of Slate and sort of inside the kind of somewhat formless, leaderless organization, but at the same time was also reporting on it for NBC News and working with their camera. They didn't see this as a story until, you know,

a little later on down the road. So I was there handling all the cameras and the filming and doing interviews with people and kind of reporting it out and kind of shocked, you know, but it gave me an in and out pass in Sproul into Sproul Hall. And I could see the rest going on, you know, and the cops and dragging people down, you know, marble staircases and has popping and bouncing on things. I mean, just, you know, wait, you know, we thought of the time was police cruelty, but of course, a very mild version of what really could go down. Right. But you were, so you were actually, you had access to that. I was in this side when they were doing all of a sudden he was also good to leave because I had a press pass. So you were this like stringer for the, you know, like this rookie student journalist. Yes. Well, I had this, I had for the last, earlier, a couple of summers had a summer job with NBC News. And in San Francisco, they had a NBC had just a radio station. It didn't have a full-fledged television bill. They didn't own a television station. So in addition

to my summer job, which started off as being the writing the traffic reports from six to nine in the morning and four to six in the afternoon, you'll listen to police radios and handing the disc jockey's copy about where there were accents on our freeways and what to avoid and so forth. That led me in 64 into a job with NBC News at the Democrat, at the Republican Convention, the Goldwater Convention was taking place that year at the Cow Pass and so had a big full load of that as well. But during his school year, if I came with stories, I could sell them to NBC News. And so all of a sudden, you know, going on with this free speech, we involved this huge story. And I was the guy down the spot for them. What, what did it feel like on the campus when suddenly, out of seemingly, out of nowhere, this movement? Well, it's just galvanized everybody. I mean, just riveted the entire campus. I mean, there were kind of people wanting to dismiss it and look down those, and

I'm pretty pleased for turning people in sports people, but it really took every over everybody's lives. I mean, I mean, it was taking place right in the center of campus for one thing. And once you arrest, what is the number? 200, 300, 500? Once you arrest hundreds of students, you know, and drag them off to jail and the police occupy the campus, what becomes everybody's business, such as everybody was involved in it. And then the faculty took the side of the students and against the administration of Clark Kerr and they, you know, were demanding, looking back, I was kind of small stuff, you know. But in our lives, that was very big stuff. I'm very, very important stuff. And it was a lot of precedenting stuff. I mean, it was, to me, anyway, it was the precedent of the modern student movement. You know, I mean, I think, you know, people are focused on the things that happen at Columbia University of New York in 1968, but really student protest, as we know, as we came to know,

started there then in Berkeley, in 1963, 1964, in 1964 with the free speech movement. And it even had a precedent before that. I mean, it was, was where the so-called riots took place at the House of American Activities Committee hearings that took place in San Francisco. And those, those, those protests will run out of Berkeley. And Berkeley had a long history with the Congress of racial equality, the Corps, which were running demonstrations against auto dealers in San Francisco. And there was a massive precedent at the Sheridan Palace. I was part of that. Hiring, I think, you know, hiring practices. And, well, they don't get the credit date. These are the first ones that were taking place outside the South, you know, not in New York City and not in Los Angeles, but in San Francisco Bay Area in Berkeley. And there was a precedent at the Sheridan Palace, you know, where, you know, it was one of the, at that time, the fancy is the best known hotels and because of the San Francisco. And it was

taken over by the students, you know, who shut the hotel and the, you know, the ability to check in and get in and out down, demanding hiring practices. And same on auto row. So these things preceded the student in Berkeley. But, you know, people are amped and ready to go. I mean, on the left, you know, people coming of age are getting into their early 20s. You know, they were starting to, you know, the shock of the Kenny assassination, the shock of the Vietnam War, the shock that things really weren't as, had been sold to us when we were kids growing up in grammar school and high school. The things weren't at all what had been promised, you know, by the government that, you know, the president was killed, you know, or the wellness war and the facts and shocking facts and discrimination in the South. All this became, you know, became more than apparent once you sort of got out of, you know, you

know, got out of your childhood and went to college, you know, or, you know, as high school students, and it demanded action. And it demanded a response if you had a conscience, you know, if you were aware of this kind of thing, if you were into politics, you know, political action. And that was not an orty viewpoint. And it slowly gradually, but surely became a majority viewpoint and a majority activity of my generation. But it started there at that time. And there was a link between the South and the free speech movements. Well, Berkeley, you know, we sent, I mean, to my knowledge, tremendous amount of the freedom writers, the people involved in that sense, you see, came from Berkeley. It was a major freedom ground. Is that what you're for? Yeah. And also they came back. And people, of course, other people had been down South. Well, and Mario was, you know, one of these unique galvanizing, I saw him give that speech.

And tell me about the speech. It was just, you know, it's, I'm not at that age, we, you know, there was that card, that computer card, we will become, we will not longer be cogs in the machines, we'll throw ourselves against the wheels, the machine, and to break down a lot of kind of stuff. I mean, just powerful stuff out of nowhere. Mario was, you know, nobody knew who he was. He was just kind of a guy with a real, you know, gift of speaking. In fact, I believe he stuttered was, you know, and it, for him to deliver the speech, he was just pretty moved. And he became the central figure of it, unintentionally. And it was a very decentralized, you know, like very ad hoc movement. I mean, and it came together around the person of Mario Savio. And I interviewed him that night for NBC News, every give that speech, you know, but it's

on tape somewhere, you know, and sat down and went through it all. No kidding, we should probably look, I mean, it would be really a trip if we could pull out of the archive. Yeah. You interviewed Savio. I would be something. I mean, if anybody has it, it's NBC. But I doubt they kept it. I don't know. What do you think it was about that moment when people started saying, I got to do something about it? I think that, you know, this sort of growing awareness of the injustice at various levels in a society which we told was going to be a justice society. I mean, you have to, I mean, you have to step back for a second and say, well, what is the baby boom? Because this is what it is. This is who it was and what it was about in essence, despite like the, you know, the leadership being maybe in their 30s or 40s, and you know, Martin Luther King or not baby boom, well, well, well, what's the baby boom?

Here you have coming into college and adulthood at that time in 64, the beginning leading edge of the biggest, the brightest, the best educated, the wealthiest generation in history of America. And because of that fact, it's going to start to define, you know, and great part what America is and what it's going to be. So this generation was raised on kind of like all these kinds of ideals and like America has been for a long time and it's studied all this stuff in school. And obviously, this girl is not true. So you feel you, you know, you've been told this is the way it should be and you've been told there will be social justice and equality and all men are created equal and so forth and then you believe all that stuff. So you move to act upon it. You know, this being the largest generation of American history and the, as I said, the best educated and the wealthiest, it gives it a lot of clout and a lot of meaning and the opportunity to act and, you know, rather substantial ways.

Yeah. Yeah. I think money is surprisingly important in this equation. These were... Well, these are not people with, with memes, anyway. Well, these are people who, a generation that didn't really have to focus right away on jobs or getting employment or studying professional stuff in school. I mean, the society was very, very wealthy, you know, and parents are wealthy and there was no hardships and that's not to say that it was super wealthy. But you could live on your parents and on student, you know, on tuition, you know, things that were, you know, being paid for and see eye loans and all these kinds of things. With ease, you know, there wasn't, you know, there wasn't a desperate scramble for it. The job market wasn't flooded, you know, it wasn't, well, what is, isn't like it is today where... Well, was there a kind of, we look at your book pictures of the 60s and the kids look like they're from the 50s.

You know, the kids in the 70s look like what we think the 60s were. The conformity, the consensus, the kind of madman kind of was really pretty amazing. Well, you know, it was a small, what do people look like? Well, it was a smaller America, it was a much smaller America, I mean, remember, the population was half the size, it was like 150 million then, it was now the impact of all those people everywhere. And then all the stuff that suddenly happened, I mean, just communications, it was great. But, you know, it was an Eisenhower America. You know, people coming out of World War II, our parents have been shaped up by the government to work together, organize, they had collaborated as a society and, you know, one of the greatest achievements ever, you know, World War II and the destruction of Hitler and so there was a, you could feel really positive about government. Our parents grew up feeling this, this, this, this government, the government accomplished something.

And one is war. I mean, you know, it's clear evil. Now, it's, we've come back from war and the government is paying for education for building universities and colleges that accommodate our children as GI bills and all these things are put in place, including the welfare state, which is still in place. And it was a period of quiet, you know, Eisenhower did a great job, as we now know, and running the country, keeping it out of war, stopping the hawks from bombing everything and general domain and all these crazy things are going on and managed the whole war rather well. So, you know, there's every reason to kind of get along and feel comfortable, not rock the boat, you know, our parents certainly felt that way. And it was just that madness of youth coming along and come 63, 64, as it starts to, leading the edge starts to go to college and start to enter their young adulthood. And that kind of like, wrestles of youth to rebel and to, you know, see things different and find different things and be curious and, and given the education that this generation

had, why it was more curious than ever. So, enter that into the assassination of one of the most popular presidents of these young fresh guy and enter that into the coming of the Beatles, the wonderful freshness of the whole rock and roll thing, you know, where my generation is listening to him you, to this kind of music, speaking to him, that was the only thing that it did speak to my generation, you know, because you couldn't read, pick up life magazine or the San Francisco Chronicle or watch the three networks or find anything to do with young people and maybe a little of the clock hit parade here in the afternoons or, but otherwise youth culture was completely shut out. And when youth culture did start to emerge, as for instance, say the arrival of the Beatles, one thing, it got, it was pissed upon by, you know, time magazine and then newspapers and it's all screaming girls, it means nothing and long hair, this will go away or this will vanish in the same way that Elvis Presley was kind of dumped upon sort of band from

shaking his hips on TV and so like that, but nonetheless it was the voice of a generation, it was the medium through which young people could talk to each other and which ideas could be expressed in philosophies and not coherent organized philosophies, but philosophies about how you treat other people in a way, and philosophy about justice, about human relationships, about social justice, about goodness, about love, and that those kind of message got deeper and more recent as it dealt with more sophisticated things in the rise of Bob Dylan, but Bob Dylan and the Beatles, the Stones are steam out very sophisticated and adult and mature themes. Do you remember where the first time you heard the Beatles? I, the first time, yeah, I saw, I was, went to see a hard day's night with some friends of mine, so you gotta see it, I'll see it, and then in Pasadena, California, and I was just blown away by the kind of like the life, the spirit, the enjoyment, the joy, the music

was wonderful, you know, I just, and they come in February of 1964, the land of Kennedy Airport, and the whole country goes nuts. Yeah, I remember, at first when they landed, I didn't pay attention right away, I do, but I do remember, like all kinds of things, always getting together in dorms and places to watch the Sullivan and Sullivan show to see the Beatles, you know, and I was quite, I was kind of in my little fokie phase at the moment, but um, the Scott it soon enough. Yeah, um, it's been stereotyped away, you know, uh, Beetlemania and everything, but it really did permeate the culture, you know, way that nothing else had done. Well, you know, the Beatles kind of represent in great part the idea that youth and growing it could be joyful or rebellious and, uh, fresh and original and, and, uh, rude and fun, you know, just sheer fun.

And, uh, that was him, they always were talking fun at the reporters, you know, like making the rebels, and they, and they were joyful, and that's kind of what you want to be. And jeez, what a kind of fun job to have too, by the way, and Carl's running around chasing all over the place and, and just the act of making music. Um, so I mean, I don't think you can underestimate all the impact of the Beatles or the Stones or Dylan had in any of this. I mean, these are, these are major players of the culture of the generation and, uh, the fact that John Buyers shows up at the free speech, you know, in its infancy and sings that powerful song of the Beatles, with God on the side, you know, it says a lot about how it all intermingles. Now, uh, nobody was able to really to capture the spirit of music and bend it to their political will later on, you know, and as, as things emerge in this, this area of our

nation's history, this, the slice of it. Yeah, but it was a powerful cementing voice, you know, for kind of unity. It wasn't a left-wing thing, you know, but it was, it was a very powerful, I mean, in a way, shape the generation much more saving politics did. Although that's the year, uh, uh, the rise of very global. Well, just to go back on that for a second about me, I just wanted to put, music, the rock-roll music did more to shape the ideas and values and culture and style of this generation than ever did the political side of it. And there was some animosity about that and some, if you know, music was too frivolous and all that stuff, but nonetheless, that was what more than any other single thing captured the imagination of the generation and expressed it even to this day. And it didn't, wasn't opposed to politics or left-wing politics by any means, it was

just a different strain of it and broader. And I think any proper understanding of 1964 and what comes after it has to, you know, really finally properly acknowledge that, that fact. Right. Um, and it is a great, right, I mean, the Beatles are something new. Well, you could, it was all foreshadowed in the early days of Baby Boom by Elvis and Chuck Barry, who after all is thinking about rebellion and can't wait to get out of school and, you know, puppy love, you know, love and all that stuff, but, you know, some, what, what Adolescence was in a very direct way and there was a lot of controversy about them being a little too frank, you know, a little too overtly sexual, but that's what it is, isn't it? Today, of course, you don't hear that, you can just forget about it. But um, so it, it was, it came also in the rise of music and you could see it, it came

hand in hand with also the rise of technology and, uh, and communication so that, you, music, which started off as 33, 78s became 33s and for that, you know, because of technology started become more and more ubiquitous until it reached today where it's every, it's you, you can have it, you pick up your phone, you've got it, you know, you pick up your little thing, you're carrying it constantly. So, uh, technology, but you were asking about, you want to bury goldwater. Yeah. Well, I had the privilege of working for Huntland Brinkley at the, in the, in the broadcast booth at the 1964 Republican National Convention, which was at the Cow Pals in San Francisco and saw that great speech, you know, where, uh, I think it was a high salient speech. Uh, well, there's a bunch, I think there are peers,

but Rockefeller has been, you know, is the establishment Republican. Right. But who gave the speech attacking the press? Eyes now. Eyes now. So I'm like, so, yeah. But in that mood, I think, and I, and I was standing at the broadcast booth with Chad Huntland, Dave Brinkley, they were, they were just five of us working at booth for the whole convention and, and looking down, they all said in the, all the four of people, delegates were shaking their fists up at the broadcast booths, yelling and screaming. It was like a, it was scary moments. Like if you went out with your press badge on, you know, you're going to get jumped or something's going to punch you. I said, I forgot this phrasing, uh, but it set off among this kind of like thing, which you see this day, you know, blaming the press for all the ills and the delegates were shaking our hands and fury at looking up at the booths. And, um, what did that tell you about the goldwater faithful who had packed the convention?

75% of the people in the convention had never been to the convention in either of the two previous elections. This was Barry. You know, this was the true concert? Well, yeah, it was the rise of the true believers. And, uh, they're always, I have been around, they've always been a strain of American politics. And when I went to high school, and I went to high school in Southern California, we had the John Birch Society in the close to Pasina. I went to very bright. And so we had seen General Walker, and then you see all those fringes of American society. I went and grew him in California, you would see billboards that impeached Earl Warren, who was then the chief justice. Um, but to see them gathered on mass and in a place as establishment and at the center of things as a public convention

was scary. It was like a new day. And, uh, of course, one is prepared to believe the worst about everybody and how dangerous it was and all this stuff. And, but no, it was, it was scary. I mean, this was somebody talking about, you know, setting up an H bomb in North Vietnam. I mean, you know, turning into a parking lot. I mean, my God. So, uh, he kind of like, you have to think twice, you have to do every kind of stop this. Um, do you remember in Rockefeller, speaks the day before Goldwater? He's the one that's been, you know, Phyllis Schlafly and all those folks consider Rockefeller the ultimate need to republic, the ultimate establishment, country club republic. But they hate. He's the one that gave them, this is the people that gave them Tom Dewey and Wendy Wilkie and all these

people. And Rockefeller decides to speak about a platform he wants to introduce to the platform of a plank about opposed to extremism. And the crowd goes crazy. And he stands there for like six minutes, trying to speak and they won't let it, booing you. Uh, yeah. A semel moment. We've seen it. We say, we've seen all that. Now come to pass, Emily. Extremism and defensive liberty is no buy. So is that the court of Barry Goldwater's? Um, and, you know, it's all co-ling for how crazy we may get, you know. You were there for the speech, you know, he had been accused of being an extremist because of this, some of his loose talk about, right, nuke and stuff. But in fact, that's not that, that crazy thing to say. But politically, it was one of the stupidest things you could imagine. Because

it's already been painted. Well, I mean, you know, in Dredges, but we now know that Barry Goldwater is much more of a libertarian and his views were, you know, really rather radical. And, um, and much, much we would embrace today. And we'd be probably better off today, you know, if we still had Goldwater around, you know, the honest man, you know, he said what he wanted to say. I mean, uh, relatively innocent. And that's kind of one of the things I kind of find and fascinating. He was the uncandidate, you know, the guy that said whatever we find, no matter how politically, uh, stupid it was. Do you remember coming in and out of a convention, there were 50,000 people protesting outside or something? I, you know, I don't really, you know, we get to work early and then we were there for 24 hours and we just lived there. That's the first convention really that doesn't mean anything, you know, before then most of the conventions were, of course, that's how you smoke film room and party bosses

actually pick the delegates. You were in the booth with what was going to be the wave of the future. You were with the media. You'll become the dominant force. Did you feel that at all? No, I mean, just, I mean, you know, they were shocked. They never say anything like that before. I mean, boo, being booed and hissed. I mean, there's a serious people. The, yeah, we were all shocked. But that convention also was, really, it was the first where, I believe, where the meat where you had roving reporters on the floor and they were can't huge backpacks kind of like they were astronauts and, you know, with electronic equipment and filming and doing things and really reporting out. So, I mean, there are more of a presence there than they had ever been at a convention before, which is before used to be covered pretty much by print reporters and trying to discern what was going on in the back rooms. And now you can, I'll bring people live on TV. It's just kind of contribute to the

air atmosphere of hysteria, you know, and intensity and getting people to go, because it's all now being done in live time and kind of instant response. And so you, I, we recall, I recall that during that demonstration against the press, we were looking at our reporters on the floor going, what's going to happen to these guys? You know, are they going to get mobbed? You know, are they going to get beaten up by this crowd? Mobbed down there. John Chancellor was on the floor. John was on the floor and Frank McGee was one of the correspondents. At one point, Chancellor gets kind of, he got roughed out in somebody, didn't he? I'll share it off by these thugs. And his last line is, this is John Chancellor signing off, somewhere in custody. Well, it was all pretty, we are part of a lot of drama going on there. But we, it was the center of it now. It happened that was the NBC dominated the ratings and killed it all and took that commission away. But you probably, you weren't

in New York, probably, but the world's fair, it comes out in 64 and the Ford Mustang. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. The Ford Mustang in T, wasn't I? Not much. I don't remember my car person. That muscle car. Well, I mean, you were aware of it, but it didn't mean much to me, you know, I mean, who knew it was going to have such resonance? Yeah. Do you remember where you were when? Now of course, it means a lot. You know, we're trying to get those to spend a fortune in advertising, right? Celebrating their 50th anniversary. Do you remember where you were when you heard Kennedy? Yeah, right in Sproul Play. I was walking back from classes and it was, you know, in the morning, wasn't it? Like before noon in West Coast. And there was a massive amount of people, students, all gathered around outside the student union, which was one of the things that faced on Sproul Plays, where later on

all the sit-ins took place. And you just walked by and said, what's happening? Everybody's watching me. What's happening? Somebody told you what's happening in New York, completely shocked by the whole idea. And I stayed a little bit and watched TV and then went back to my apartment and just kind of gotten bad. And then it was, didn't want to go out or deal with anything or, you know, it's just too disturbing. You know people just clustered around? People clustered around, yeah. Television. Yeah, yeah. And then everything came to halt. You want to do lots of people? Oh, yeah. I think everybody, everybody. 93% of Americans. Really, wow. Yeah. Really unprecedented. But, I mean, I don't think you can, I mean, that was the 93%, but you cannot, I mean, that singer event led to the 60s, as we know it, and the disillusionment of young people and the rise of protests and the letting loose of everything, of all the strictures and

all the things that kept everything slightly in control, all got loosened because of that. You know, if that could happen, if you could assassinate the president of the United States, particularly that president, who embody all these dreams and hopes for the country and things to go right, then you were permissioned to go out and, you know, raise hell or your disillusioned, everything was suspect. You questioned everything. And the only positive note that comes along, obviously, as soon as the Beatles, you know, and then you can put your faith in that. You know, but you can't, you know, trust the political process, can you? I, uh, Robert, looks like you gave me an interview and he talked about being at, um, Cassius Clay's training camp down in February when the Beatles come in, and he got hurt it into a room with the Beatles and Clay, and then they do a photo thing. There's

that great thing of him hitting four of the Beatles, pretending to be knocked out while it's in. It's shortly thereafter because Muhammad Ali Americans don't know what to make it. He's, he's another figure that, personally, do you remember him? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, uh, some of they tried to run out of business and run that town because he's just speaking of truth and doing what he wanted to do. I mean, he's fun, I said, I felt like a thing, you know, be a con, never do anything to me. You know, and, um, often in poetry too. Yeah. I mean, he was, he was a great figure, but they had just, you know, went after him too. So just any non-conformist thing was, was, uh, really, they want to shut it down. Yeah. You know, and, um, it's always you could argue that Kennedy's assassination was the first day of 1964, you know, in a way. Well, that's what opened, that's what opened the 60s. That's what the 60s about. The 60s began there. Yeah. You can call it opening 64 or call it opening

at 60s, but it was at that moment. I mean, Chris, that was all still about eyes and hour area and everything was nice and things were moving in a better direction. But, um, you know, remember how you felt about LBJ taking over? Well, I mean, I was just as, uh, how I feel about LBJ. Yeah. It's hard to remember at first how you might have felt about it because it was probably, well, he seemed good. You know, I mean, I think everybody felt very positive about him and you know, what did he do after all, but trying to continue the legacy and pass all those legislation and getting him wanted to pass or was in favor of. And it really is to get non-more that toward all apart, you know, and toward part LBJ, you know, and individual and towards, and really went on to just tear America apart. It's amazing when you look at the steps that he takes in, you know, the troops go in in 65, but the decisions to escalate, Tonkin Gulf is in August of 64. All the steps, the big full steps have 64. It's like, from that point on,

when did it, when did the full-brice start speaking out? Not till quite a bit later. He's skeptical at 64, but he knows a lot about it. He was one of the key reasons that Tonkin got preservation passes. Because Johnson persuaded him to- Well, the Vietnam War after the assassinations, you know, those two are the principal things that tore America apart. I mean, what belief are you supposed to have as young people growing up in the country? I mean, as opposed to our parents, you know, who had the World War II to believe in and to celebrate and to know that they had done a good thing and seen America's society stand for something so positive and so powerful. He, I've tried to try to try to try to try to try to solve. Whereas my generation was- our experience of American government was when they allowed the assassination of our society,

we had the sausage of all the key leaders, inspirational, great men and the war in Vietnam and the denial of civil rights in the South when they were asked for. So, this didn't make any of us feel positive about. And to this day, it infects us because it didn't make any young person the brightest and best of our generation want to go into politics, to want to go into government service, to want to become leaders of this society. So, I mean, I think a great opportunity to see the best and brightest most committed go into the government, go into positions of leadership was severely diminished. 19, you know, August of that year, another band gets number one on the charts, the Supreme's. What's going on with that? Well- That's a cultural shift, too.

There are very- in there, the white gloves, the ball gowns, what's very good? What's going on? Well, I mean, very good, when he started mowing down his slogan was, the sound of young America. It didn't want the sound of black America, it was the sound of young America and he made all that black music palatable to wipe you. So, this day, I'll dress up in gowns and gloves and coats and ties and looking easy and innocent and non-threatening and non-dangerous, but the music was stunning. And, of course, later on, of course, it got a lot of political overtones and emoticallic, but, you know, he just, he got the spirit of the time, the beat, you know, the dance music, you know, and the, and the desired integrate society. And society starts to get integrated partially through sports, a great part, to express them, and to a greater extent, probably, than any other field in music,

good rock and roll music. I mean, because, based on black music, but the idea of young people, black and white, being together harmoniously and sharing something, I mean, comfortably each other, because more from music than in any other field. And, you know, and Motown was part of that. And Rolling Stone became part of that. You know, I mean, what magazine, other than Jet and Ebony, was putting black people on the cover. Then, and, and this thing keeps popping out, as I thought, it turned out, my...