Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ralph C. Thomas III, 1981

View online at openvault.wgbh.org

Transcript

Initial reaction to the culture on military bases

VIETNAM

RALPH THOMAS

SR #2865

T 876

One, take one. 16th of July.

Clapstick.

Interviewer:

Ralph, I wonder if you could begin by telling me when you went to

Vietnam and what you expected to do there - the first thing that struck

you when you arrived.

Thomas:

Okay, well I went to Vietnam in February of 1969. I was, had been, in

the service for about one year, and I grew up in a small town in um,

Maryland, and uh, the place I was at before Vietnam was a place in

Illinois and you just weren't considered a man unless you were, had

been to Vietnam, everybody came back with war stories and everything.

So, when I was assigned to Vietnam I was sort of uh glad in a way that

I could at least go through it and come back and say that, that I had

uh been through it.

It uh really never occurred to me about the fact that it was, it was,

the danger and everything involved. In fact, I put my uh had my

baseball gloves and my spikes and everything in my duffle bag and I was

really expecting just to go through it and say that I was there. So,

when I landed, uh, actually I just wanted to walk off the plane and

then get back on and say I was there.

But, uh I arrived there and I just looked, I was just uh just a kid

with, with big eyes, just trying to look at everything I saw. And the

first realization was that a war was going on is that when we got there

they told me to immediately get out of my suit. I was in a dress suit

uh, and uh, most people were, of course, in their fatigues, but I

wanted to look my best.

And uh we uh they told me to get out of my suit and get into fatigues

because I was going, the place I was going had just been hit. And that

I might have to jump out, we might have to bail out on the way. And,

and that I should be suited, and that was my first realization that

there was something serious going on. And that night, when I stayed in

Cam Ranh Bay we were hit. We were hit that night.

Interviewer:

How did it look to you as a place? How did the people look? Was it a

surprise? Were you prepared for it mentally?

Thomas:

Uh, I don't think uh... I was prepared. It, it was like I was expecting

one thing and there was another thing going on. Uh, to, to get into the

first thing that hit me, since I arrived in Cam Ranh Bay, the town was

not on limits. So I really didn't have a close view of Vietnamese

people at that time. It was just the servicemen. And the thing that hit

me first of all was the, the racial polarization. And I got a real sign

of that that night, as I said, I went to the club, the NCO Club, and I

saw blacks, y'know, giving the fist sign as a welcome sign, uh...

hello, y'know, shaking hands in a certain, in a way that I had never

seen before.

And uh... everyone I was seen by, every black I was seen by, gave me a

smile and a clenched fist. I mean, I had, it was kind of, it was

slightly threatening at first because I had seen it in the States a

little bit, but it was always seen as uh the extremist. Y'know, these

were people who weren't y'know, who were, uh, out to make trouble and

you better watch out. But, uh, when I got there I felt a certain

camaraderie about, I mean, for the first time, it, it, it, the, I was

just accepted. They just took me in and just accepted me as, as uh, as

one of their own, as one, y'know, we were all... uh one. And uh I, I

kind of liked it.

Interviewer:

I wonder if you could, seems a good story, I wonder if you could maybe

just go through the story again, and your real surprise was that you

were welcome and you felt part of something and why you felt... I

wonder if you could just do that story for me again, because I think

we've got into it in a rather convoluted way.

Thomas:

Oh, okay, well as I said I was uh... the first black I saw there uh

smiled at me and gave a clenched fist. And I, y'know, it it looked, uh

pretty good, I mean it looked, uh, like I said uh, before I saw it as

threatening but... uh now the thing to me all looked okay, and I gave

sort, sort of like (laugh) a weak fist back, y'know the thing, hello,

and he came over and started talking, uh, hello brother, y'know, was

the first time. And we had called each other brother in the States

occasionally, but it really meant something at that time. And then I

saw, uh other, everywhere I looked, uh blacks giving either a clenched

fist hello or starting, uh giving handshakes, uh I later learned it was

called giving the dap.

But it was something I'd never seen before and uh, I was really, really

uh taken aback. But what touched me most is that although before I

viewed this kind of togetherness as sort of threatening, because all

the, in in the States that... we saw it in isolated uh incidences using

like television or every now and then you saw someone doing that, but

in this instance it wasn't threatening at all. I, I was really accepted

uh by, no questions asked, just a brother from the States. Y'know and I

was just accepted... uh immediately. When I went to Nha Trang the next

morning, uh I was told to take the day off and get used to the base.

I went to the uh... club. And uh, as soon as I walked in, I mean uh,

these blacks sitting at a table saying "Hey brother, uh, a new one,"

y'know, and just, and everyone came and they gave me, and I was really

embarrassed because I didn't know how to do the handshake... at the

time. So uh I had to, to really, they said, "Oh, I see they're doing it

different now... in the world?" They used to call the States the world.

They'd say, "Oh, oh, they're doing it different now?" I said, "Well,

yea, yea" (laughing), sort of lying, y'know, but uh, I eventually uh,

uh got into it.

And as a part of the other side of the warm camaraderie among blacks is

that uh, many whites there took it as, as threatening. And uh... and if

you were seen doing this, giving the clenched fist, that drew the line

right there. You were uh, you you were uh evidently the other... kind

of... kind of people. You weren't somebody that uh you weren't a

reasonable person or you were one of those.

Racial polarization among the troops

Interviewer:

How did racism show itself in the form which was there? You were

fighting a war against a common enemy. I mean, how did it, what were

the classic illustrations to you that caused you problems or pain

or...?

Thomas:

Okay, the racial polarization was...

Interviewer:

Wait a minute till the... stop. Fine.

Thomas:

The racial polarization was uh deeper there than, than I've ever seen.

Uh, as, as some clear... uh observations... the town was on limits in

Nha Trang. And uh... during the day I walked through the town and

really trying to find my way around seeing one thing or another. So

that night I was supposed to go out with the brothers. And uh they,

they took me, and going through it with them was a totally different

experience than going through it myself. They had black sides of town,

white sides of town. And even the Vietnamese, uh, accepted it.

And uh woe to the uh white who walked in the black area unaccompanied,

and vice versa, woe to the black who walked into a white area of town

uh unaccompanied. And it was so clearly seen, I think on the second day

I still wasn't aware of it... of of of it to that extent. But on the

second day I went, I went to this place where I was the only black and

uh, the the reception there, I mean, was so uh... negative. I mean I

could just feel it in the atmosphere. And uh, no one came over to talk,

no one spoke, uh none of the women came over to talk, and it was like,

it was just something that said "Leave right away while you can."

And so, uh, that's what I did. There were several racial flare ups in

the city of uh... Nha Trang. Usually, when whites came to the black

side of town either unaccompanied or who who just did not fit in right,

who did not go along with just sitting there and, and... just being

seen and not heard. And uh, there were fights uh, the uh person who was

beaten up would go get other people, of course, and uh, the whole thing

would start all over again. But, uh getting off the town and back to

the base, the uh clenched fist and uh giving the dap, the, the hair

styles, the hair styles were changing. This was in the heat of the

black awareness movement, uh by the way...

Interviewer:

I wonder if you could start again on the just, just tell me about being

in the heat of that the consciousness movement and what was meant in

terms of hair styles, I mean you've got some lovely things in there,

court martial...

Thomas:

Okay, right, okay. One, one thing that came with the black

consciousness movement, the black awareness movement and black pride,

was that blacks, uh, started wearing their hair longer showing the

natural texture of their hair. Prior to that it was either very low

cut... and uh, or slicked down, I guess, in in some way that was never

found offensive. Hair, haircut regulations was never a problem to

blacks in the past, just because of the texture of their hair. They,

they had it very low, or they had straight hair and then they cut it as

as whites did.

With the uh... new black pride movement uh blacks began wearing their

hair longer. And the uh, the military rules on hair suddenly became uh

irrelevant to blacks, it became inapplicable to blacks. I think there

was one rule that said your hair couldn't be more than two inches long.

Now, to a white man that's pretty reasonable. I mean, two inches,

y'know. But, black hair, two inches is out like that, so (laugh) we saw

blacks with hair growing out like that underneath their cap, but they

were within regulations.

And uh, this this just burned people up. I mean, the whites were

yelling uh "special treatment;" the officers were, eh eh every time

they saw anything that resembled an Afro haircut they would uh try to

make the, the uh soldier cut it down to uh uh a level acceptable to him

uh. Blacks, although most blacks would get it cut, they certainly were

not going back to the old style. And and this was a cause of... the

only people who wore wore their hair in the old way were the older uh

black soldiers, who uh more or less had a stake in the military.

Two. Clap stick.

Interviewer:

Ralph, from the way you're talking it almost sounds as though there is

a separate war going on - that you're there to fight a war - but the

things that are preoccupying many of your reflecions of the black

within the service that you're in, would that be a true thing to

say...?

Thomas:

Yes, it would be a a true, because one, one incident comes to mind in

that regard. Uh... during that time black, all black movies were just

starting to creep out. I, I think later they called em blaxploitation

films. But anyway, one uh came out uh one of the first ones called "Up

Tight!" With an all black cast, and pretty much an all black cast, and

which exemplified the black militancy. And uh, they were supposed to

show it at uh Nha Trang. And uh, it was being shown in the big open air

uh theater. And uh, people came from everywhere to see it.

Blacks came from every town, out in the hills, the army grunts down

from the hills - everywhere. Other nearby bases, everyone was coming to

see "Up Tight!" This was the only thing, although we heard about the

black experience uh, or what was going en in the States. This was

something that, this was a direct uh closeness to it. And uh... we were

supposed to have it in the open air theater that night. And uh it was

packed. Even whites, even, even whites came.

I mean everybody wanted to see why this was so hot. Uh, the military

police were gath, driving around the sides, uh I mean it was just this

thing that something was gonna happen although I didn't, I just wanted

to see the movie, and as far as I'm concerned most blacks just wanted

to see the movie too. So it started off with a funeral of, ah, Martin

Luther King, right, and uh, then it was just about in the first part to

get good, and the uh base commander... or one of his agents, I'm pretty

sure it was the base commander, comes driving his jeep onto the open

air theater y'know, right on the... Rrrrr!, gets right out of it and

says, "This base is now on yellow alert. No movie." Yellow alert mean

uh, meant danger of attack.

And so, I mean he said, "Clear, everyone disperse." And so, uh, I mean

everyone was really angry uh... the blacks especially. I mean, instead

of dispersing, everybody was uh just gathering around in huddles very

angry, uh deciding what to do. Everybody was certain that this was a, a

put on. Everybody was certain that this was just concocted. So that uh

we could not see the film. And uh, everyone was wondering wh, what to

do. Ah, several blacks wanted to just go rioting through the base, just

uh, set things ah, aflame and and do other things. Other people just

wanted to beat up white people.

And a group of other people, of which I was in that group, we decided

to sit down and ah, write a letter to our congressman describing the

whole episode. And uh... one of the first lines in the letter was,

"We're fighting two wars over here." Y'know. And um, that's why... uh

when someone says, "were you fighting, sounds like two wars were going

on, that's the first thing that enters my mind. I only heard rumors of

anything happening that night. But, at any rate, the uh all that it

would've taken was a little push to uh, really to really start

something.

The expansion of black political consciousness

Interviewer:

You have a very interesting deposition in there in which you talk about

the sort of political arguments that went on. Seems to almost be like a

baptism of fire for you cause of the political arguments and principals

and validity of the war. I wonder if you can tell me how these

arguments came about. How they would develop and what would happen, and

how heated were they? Could you set the scene for me?

Thomas:

Yes uh, one part of coming to Vietnam... uh not only for blacks, but

many young whites, was getting more politicized... about uh the war. We

weren't fighting every day, so we had time to reflect about, we were

working hard, we were working ab--about six, twelve, hour days a week

and then next Sunday maybe a half a day and uh so we had time to sit

around and and reflect about just what was happening.

Uh, for blacks such as myself, it was reading uh after reading uh

Malcolm X and black history uh... Martin Luther King and and and other

more black milit... Eldridge Cleaver, etc., it it naturally led in into

a political reading. And uh I read Dr. Spock on Vietnam. There was

anti-war literature in Vietnam... readily available. And readily

available to everyone. So it made us more politicized and we talked

about it among ourselves and uh, so when something was said by the our

superiors or upper echelon, or even people of our own age, we we we

answered it, we we'd say, "Look, it's ah, America's fault that we're

here in the first place."

And and we would cite uh, uh certain examp... certain figures, etc.,

you know, that we're doing these people wrong - we're ruining these

people. Now we shouldn't uh be over here... uh... uh etc., etc. When a

uh patriot, not that I'm not a patriot, but when a, a down home patriot

heard this y'know my country right or wrong hear, heard this, uh it led

to a very furious arguments. And we were not afraid to argue with

anybody; I took on anybody. Captains, uh, my superiors, uh we felt that

we had the facts and that we were right and that we were correct and

that as long as as we were correct nothing could could happen to us.

I guess it was certain naivet頯f the, of the early movement. Uh, I

remember a General Walt of the Marines wrote an article for Life

Magazine. And it was entitled, "When War Comes,"... no he, it was

entitled, "When Discipline Erodes, Men Die Needlessly." And I wrote an

answer to it. "When War Comes Men Die Needlessly." Naturally

(laughing), Life uh, I guess took mercy on me, thank heaven, and did

not print the article. But, it was kind of uh an answer to him, a

reply. It wasn't the discipline in the military that were making men

die, it was the Vietnam War that was making men die.

Interviewer:

How did this affect, I mean you were there, you were there to fight the

war. How are you able to fight a war when, from what you say, there was

considerable groundswell for an argument that things are wrong. I mean

this seems an immense contradiction in the way in which one thinks

armies fight and morale and everything else. Talk to me about that.

What did that do to your fighting spirit...?

Thomas:

Well, men, people who felt that way, or or like I... uh... they...

Interviewer:

These are people you felt were against the war?

Thomas:

Right, right. People who uh who were anti-war indoctrinated, I guess.

They uh... they ah compromised with themselves in various ways. They

came to grips with it in various ways. Some people said, would say,

"Well, by being here I'm doing more than being in jail. At least I can

be here and see it, and I can go back and tell it." Y'know. Uh, other

people would say, "Well, I'm just following orders. And no one can call

me an Uncle Tom, or no one can call me a sell out because I'm a

soldier, and I was ordered to come here and do a job, and I'm doing the

job.

And, and, I'm not doing this job forever. I'm, I'm in a contract."

Other people would say, "Yes, that's," other people would say, "Well,

what am I I doing here?" It would be a contradiction. "I'm not gonna do

anything else!" Or, "I'm gonna do everything I can to subvert it."

Y'know. "I'll work slow," Or, "I won't do things that I think are

wrong." Uh, it, it was those people, of course, that uh, got in the

most trouble. But uh, it varied. Peoples' reactions varied. Everybody

came to grips with it somehow, much like Vietnam veterans even today

are trying to come, come to grips with being there.

Interviewer:

How did you come to grips with it yourself? How did you personally feel

and how did you act?

Thomas:

You know that's the first time I've been asked that question. Uh, and I

I really don't know if I have an, the way I came to grips with it is

that uh Vietnam was exploratory for me. It was a learning period.

Things that I had read, when I was becoming politicized, things I read

I would check out with the Viet... I was very close to a lot of

Vietnamese there. And, and I would check uh things out that I read with

them. And it was just coming more and more true.

I found an ingrown respect for Ho Chi Minh, a deep respect even within

the South Vietnamese for Ho Chi Minh. Even the day, I was there when he

died. And and and it was a, there was no rejoice among the South

Vietnamese people, it was a very solemn uh quietness. I used the uh,

the the time in Vietnam as as I guess exploratory. Why, why was I

there? I guess, even before I left I was, I think I was anti war, but

as I said, I wanted to... I wanted to uh see it.

I wanted to uh say that I had had been there. And uh, boy was I sorry

sometimes after I was there. But, uh I just wanted to say that that I

was there. I think, uh... I think the way today the the coalition

between Vietnam veterans and anti war groups is that we are the surface

of their well. We are the, we are, we are the verifiers of their

allegation, what they can only uh, what they can only speculate we can

verify. And so...

VIETNAM

RALPH THOMAS

SR #2866

T 876

This is roll 2866 T876. 16/7/81. Continuation with interview with Ralph

Thomas.

Three.

Clap stick.

The strength of racial unity between officers and enlisted men

Interviewer:

Ralph, does it seem to you the proportion of blacks seem to be about

the same as it was in the States where you personally were? Were there

many black officers? Or...

Thomas:

Well, I wasn't aware of many black officers. I only saw, I only

remember one. I only remember one. And uh he was a lieutenant, which is

sort of a junior officer. And uh, he was, of course, revered by the

rest of us because he acted like one of us, he would go to places, uh,

that the black enlisted men went. Oh, to slightly contradict myself

though, one incident I remember, and I don't think these people were

from, these officers were from Nha Trang, but there were two young

black captains. And we were in town. And...

Interviewer:

Just say, "We were in town with these two black captains."

Thomas:

Right, we, we were in town. I, I was with a group of my friends,

enlisted friends, and coming opposite us was, uh, two young black

officers. And, in the military, if you're in uniform you have to salute

no matter where you are. And we uh went to salute and both of the black

captains at the same time gave us the clenched fist salute and walked

in, and annnnd, it it it ah made us feel so good, I mean, to even...

y'know even if the military uh... bearing even as far as something as

basic as a salute had not transcending racial togetherness or, and uh,

that, that was kind of another sign of, of the closeness, and the

camaraderie of of blacks in Vietnam.

Interviewer:

Wasn't that conceived then that a black officer was an "Uncle Tom" that

he was playing the game, or didn't it seem that way?

Thomas:

Well, wwwe, of course, we thought more that way towards the upper

non-commissioned officers, the the senior level sergeants, who we felt,

a lot of those were looked at as uh as Uncle Toms. And uh, playing the

game, but more so than rank... uh was associated with Uncle Tomism. It

was uh, time and service. I mean there was mainly the four striper, the

low sergeant, staff sergeant, who had in about 16 years in the service,

who, who, who people usually viewed as running scared anyway. And uh,

those were I think, most viewed as Uncle Tomism, because they pretty

much ran the service. I don't think it was fair for uh a lot of them to

be labeled with that, but uh. To, ha, I I I I guess they had their

reasons. Ah and, not all of them were like that anyway.

The prevalence of drugs and prostitution in Vietnam

Interviewer:

I wonder if we could move on to the drug scene and the prostitution

scene and what is actually happening to the social fiber your lives at

the time had. What, what for example was the drug and prostitution

scene like? Was it holed in a corner, was it up front, or, could you

just describe it to me?

Thomas:

Prostitution was a way of life in uh, Nha Trang. Prostitution... uh,

could be said in the same breath with my job was an administrative

clerk. Ah, when you went into town, you saw prostitutes, you met

prostitutes. There was no place frequent--frequented by... uh GI's in

which prostitutes were not present. Though prostitution was an accepted

way of of casual life, uh... one thing different though, prostitutes

there, or and prostitutes in America is that uh guys had girlfriends

who were prostitutes, although the the the girl may have worked all day

doing her job as prostitute, when she went home, much like a housewife

to her, to her man who was staying there.

An unfortunate result was the babies, of course, that were left behind.

And uh... the the emotion, it was very hard to marry a Vietnamese woman

and bring her back to the States, made purposely hard, I guess. But uh,

I knew several couples who would've gotten married if they could have,

and uh, were not able to. As far as drugs, drugs was also a way of

life. Drugs could be said in the same breath also as "my job was such

and such." Ah, I saw characters change, the whole character change. I

was a country boy from Frederick, Maryland. Okay? Now, if uh...

Interviewer:

Could you start again...

Thomas:

I was a country boy from Frederick, Maryland.

Interviewer:

Once more.

Thomas:

I was a country boy from Frederick, Maryland. There were... still

engrained to American values and traditions. There were other people,

many other people just like myself from other parts, ah, although I

came through it alright, as far as, ah, as the drug scene. There are,

there are others who, who did not. In the same predicament as I was,

who in a year just changed so dramatically in in their outlook on life,

and and are probably still ruined uh because of the drug situation.

There was an easiness of...

Interviewer:

How come? Was it overall the military was willing to turn a blind eye?

Was it because it was available so cheap? Was it just spare time? Or

what? How did it come about?

Thomas:

Drugs uh, were available cheaply, uh. In fact the first, I don't know

if I should tell this story (laughing) of my first day, when I went

into town, I got into... this Vespa. They had to have these little

taxis that they called Vespas - these three wheel jobs which starts

like a lawn mower - I got in and the first thing the guy asked me did

did I want a girl? I said, "No, I'd like to see the town first." And he

said, "Would you like," and he held up this big pack of what I assume

was uh... marijuana, now I know it was marijuana. At the time I just

assumed it.

And uh, it was something like ten dollars, ah I guess what now would

be, I mean, hundreds of dollars, and even then in the States it was a

high amount. But it was available, if I wanted it, it was available. I

could either have drugs or I could have a girl, or I could go to any

part of town I wanted to. Now, uh, let's say you can turn down a girl,

or you can turn down going to a bar. I mean, it, whatever the taxi

driver said, offered you, you couldn't turn down every one. I mean, it

was something he said that you were gonna want (laughing).

And so, uh, that was one availability. It was available everywhere. And

uh, the uh, the military couldn't clamp down on it too much. I mean,

iiiif they did, the arrests would be, it it it would take too much man

hours, too many man hours. And uh, and uh, I don't guess it was a uh...

uh a crime in which they would want to pursue, I mean, with other

things going on in ah, in Vietnam, that could have been a third war.

Not only the war between the the the South Vietnamese and the North

Vietnamese and, and the race wars, you also have a third war - a drug

war. And uh, I guess they weren't ready to prompt uh, uh a third war.

Interviewer:

Let's cut.

Black troops identified with the plight of the Vietnamese

Sound. Turning. Marker. Four.

Clap stick.

Interviewer:

Could you tell me how did Vietnamization affect you, Vietnamization was

going on, what was happening?

Thomas:

Well, as, we were one of the last units to leave. The more Americans

left the more often we were getting hit. Ah, we always felt that the

Vietnamese stake in protecting the base was not as uh as deep as our

own. And, I think a lot of Vietnamese soldiers were sympathetic to ah

the ah Viet Cong, or the North Vietnamese cause. Uh, I talked, we were

working very close to the Vietnamese in the army or in the air force.

And uh, we were, I was having this philosophy discussion with one of

them.

And I said, "Yyyyy'know, the way you sound, you could be a Viet Cong."

I said, "Why aren't you? Why are you in the army?" And he said, "Uh,

why should I be?" Y'know. He said, "If I was a Viet Cong, I would have

to live in the mountains. Now I live at home. I wouldn't be sure when

my next meal would be coming from. Now I'm fed three times a day, and

the army pays for it." He said, "Uh, I wouldn't uh, see my family as

much. I wouldn't be as secure. Why should I, uh, join the Viet Cong?"

And, and there was an implied uh inference that that they were gonna

win, that he knew that they were going to prevail anyway. Uh, one of

the things they used to say, they had had seen so many people come and

go, like the French had come and gone, uh, the Chinese uh before that,

and now the Americans. The Americans were just taken as another wave

just uh we were there and soon we'd be gone. And uh, so that's pretty

much how, how Vietnamization affected, affected me personally.

Interviewer:

What about the Vietnamese? You seem to talk in very friendly terms and

that guy you were speaking to yesterday. Would it be true to say that

as a black you identified pretty strongly with them because of their

position? That in some respects they were closer to you then some of

the white guys. Could you actually verbalize that?

Thomas:

Yes. Yes. We felt, I think blacks felt very much closer to the

Vietnamese and sympathized with their cause eeeven much more so than we

did with our white counterpart. Most, Vietnamese were called uh, whites

had a term for them, they called them "gooks." And ah, they would

really hold them up to to scorn, as if y'know, we're protecting you, so

you should be grateful to us. You should wanna be able, you should

wanna do everything for us that you possibly can. Uh blacks, on the

other hand, had been a part of that, had been on the other side of that

scorn. Uh... before, and I would, I would take up, I would uh defend

Vietnamese verbally anyway, when when it came that, uh, in any kind of

uh, uh, attack by whites on them.

Interviewer:

So you think it was very much a racist, racial denigrations.

Thomas:

It's racial, right.

Interviewer:

Could you just discuss that? How...

We're not gonna have much more.

Five. Clap sticks. Okay, roll.

Interviewer:

Were you aware of the war being fought against the Vietnamese almost on

racial terms? You mentioned the word "gooks" and so on. How did this

express this, or how did you see it?

Thomas:

I think that the general white attitude towards the South Vietnamese

was uh one of condescension. Or, uh, condescension and contempt. Like,

although we're carrying the red, white and blue flag for democracy,

it's also we're defending your country. We're, we're fighting your war.

Yyyou should be beholden to us. Y'know. You should be, you should uh,

bow down to us. And uh, this is what a lot of blacks, including myself,

found so, so contradictory, so uh... uh unwarranted. Uh, as I said, we

had been on the, on the other side of that scorn before. And uh, we

knew exactly what it was all about. I mean, it was, it was pure and

simple racism transferred from uh one place to another. And uh, this

time they had more of a ground for it because they were defending uh...

South Vietnam for democracy.

Increased anti-war sentiment among the troops

Interviewer:

How do you think, to go back to the point I raised slightly earlier,

you were talking about people just go home, do you think that in fact

morale within the army remained the same, that it got worse as

Vietnamization went on, did morale, what happened to morale whilst you

were there in this period of '69 to '70?

Thomas:

Even in the short year that I was there, early '69 to early '70, uh, to

me it seemed like a 180 degree drop downward in uh morale. The things

that we were reading in the papers just weren't, uh... jibing. It just

just got more and more uh, uh ridiculous. Uh... the uh... uh, as

Vietnamization came, and we felt that the Vietnamese were not doing

their job as far as as defending ah, the base, etc., we got more and

more people were saying, even people who thought we should've been

there thought that, they were now saying, "Well, we should be here, but

the war is being fought wrong."

Now, that's quite, that's a substantial change for uh, for many uh,

down home patriots. And uh, like I said, in in... just in that short

period of time, just that year, the morale of a lot of people changed

uh dramatically. Even officers looked like they were just going through

the motions. Just carrying out their orders. We knew that what they

were saying in private conversations was not what they were saying when

they were around us. They were trying to keep up appearances for us,

but it became harder and harder for them as time went on.

Interviewer:

What about morale being affected by things that were happening at home?

You said there was anti-war propaganda. But what about things like race

problems at home, economic problems at home. I mean, what did that do

to the guys in the field and to you?

Thomas:

One thing stands out clear. The conspiracy trial was, the Chicago

conspiracy trial was going on uh while I was there.

Interviewer:

Would you explain what the Chicago conspiracy trial was?

Thomas:

The Chicago conspiracy trial was uh eight uh activist leaders uh, whom

one of them was black, uh Bobby Seale. And, and others were tried for

conspiracy to disrupt the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in

1968, which nominated Hubert Humphrey, uh shortly after the

assassinations of King, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. These

people were charged with conspiring to disrupt it. Ah, the trial, their

trial was going on while I was in the, ah, in Vietnam. Ah, during the

trial Bobby Seale was gagged, tied and gagged to a chair. Bobby Seale

was chairman of the Black Panther Party.

And uh, we knew that something, the way they were reporting it in the

papers, we knew that that couldn't be right, the way he was just making

a scene in court, just acting crazy and the judge had to have him uh,

gagged and tied down. We knew that there was something else to it. And

uh, it just uh, it, and it turned out that we were right. But anyway,

we were, we were supporting, it made us more, more uh, closer uh,

together, and and more polarized as to the ah white establishment. It

was two total different reactions. The whites were saying, "Uh huh, you

see that, we're going to wipe them all out." Ah, and when the blacks

were saying, "you had, you couldn't shut him up, y'know as you did in

the past.

You had to tie him down and gag him in a court room before you could

even get him partially quiet." That was a part of of of uh of the

dignity, pride, etc. Blacks were much more uh less open to to uh

suggestions that they uh keep quiet or do one thing or another. Like I

said, it was uh, probably a naive kind of uh of a dignity... that we

were, we're right and nothing can happen to us. We know we're right on

this and we're gonna say what's right to anybody. And, and nothing is

gonna happen to me because I'm black. You know. And, and so that's

that's the type of effect it it had. And one thing I'd like to add is

that knowing the problems in Vietnam uh made me more uh, made my

arguments better later in life when I became, ah, sort of a lawyer for

people with less than honorable discharges.

Ah, people got less than honorable discharges for, many blacks, for

exerting their new found pride and dignity. And uh, it was it's good to

explain that at a hearing on a level that that senior officers can

understand. But it's to bring mostly, it goes into bringing out the

fact that this guy had every element of being a good soldier -

determination, hard worker, good worker, ah, punctual everything that

you'd want. And that the only problem is that - was the white

insensitivity to uh the uh black consciousness movement going on.

Demonstration of special handshakes

Interviewer:

You were talking about the handshakes, and so on. I wonder if you could

explain what even the dap was and what, could you just sort of show us.

Thomas:

Okay, here's one handshake. It it changed over a period of time. It got

longer and longer but ah, the most simple kind of handshake was two

blacks would see other, ball their fist, clench their fist, one would

hit each other, one would hit the other's fist down. The other would

hit it down like that, and then they'd meet. Okay? Ah, sometimes it got

to be this, this, this, and then you'd go do this and do that. And then

it got, like I said, it got longer and longer and you really had to

keep up with it. Keeping up with it though, was also showing how much

you were into ah black you know, camaraderie, and and it showed your

interest, really. And if you could keep up with the handshake, it

pretty much showed you knew what the blacks were all about in Vietnam,

what ah, what they were doing. So it it showed a certain, I guess,

degree of ah, of blackness, I guess.

Interviewer:

That's fine. Let's cut it.

Transcript

Transcript

Series: Vietnam: A Television History

Raw Footage: Interview with Ralph C. Thomas III, 1981

Contributing Organization: WGBH (Boston, Massachusetts)

AAPB ID: cpb-aacip/15-ng4gm81w79

If you have more information about this item than what is given here, or if you have concerns about this record, we want to know! Contact us, indicating the AAPB ID (cpb-aacip/15-ng4gm81w79).

Description

Credits: Publisher: WGBH Educational Foundation
Writer: Thomas, Ralph C., III

AAPB Contributor Holdings: WGBH
Identifier: d3047e524e3e33441a65c62b740eb6541dc344d8 (ArtesiaDAM UOI_ID)
Format: video/quicktime
Color: Color
Duration: 00:39:39:07

Citations: Chicago: “Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ralph C. Thomas III, 1981,” 1981-07-16, WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed October 5, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-ng4gm81w79.; MLA: “Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ralph C. Thomas III, 1981.” 1981-07-16. WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. October 5, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-ng4gm81w79>.; APA: Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ralph C. Thomas III, 1981. Boston, MA: WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-ng4gm81w79