WNET; WGBH Forum Network; Claudia Bernardi and Mark Danner

Tonight we have as I mentioned already who is an extraordinary visual artist in this area. And she's going to be showing some of her work work which focuses on human rights violations in Latin America. As an installation artist pre-baked artwork is in fact much more than the post-war period. Her work has had a large impact on numerous communities throughout that. You know so you created this. Art Studio over here. Keep your. Community based art project with children you don't. Currently already works Fessor called California College of Arts where she designs classes one or twice. A year. She will be joined by author Mark get her. Who is going to respond to saying that you were a staff writer at The New Yorker and is a frequent distributor of your books. This work is of your first New York Times after many other newspapers and magazines. His work. Is largely about war and conflict and for over

25 years he's covering stories in Central America Haiti the Balkans. Iraq. These. Places. Over the years he has received numerous honors a national magazine or three overseas press corps in 1989 very purposeful. Never gets in. And out of this pamphlet. On its way in Join us for some good works. As. Well. It's technicality first is this fine. Yes. OK. Well thank you so much for being here. Good evening and thank you for the introduction and thank you Mark for being here.

We have been friends for many years it seems. Right. So it's great to be together to continue thinking about bodies on the line. And I very much dearly appreciate the participation of all the other fellows and. Fellows and friends of fellows who have been part of the different groups that we have formed so far. It has been an intense day and a half it's not even the second day but I think we are all left with. The feeling that what precedes us seems to have a location in where we are creating right now together which is in part without knowing that in part that was that the thought of this presentation. It is call Shali ha ha is sick is the word kick chief word is correct. He's one of the indigenous languages in Guatemala. And

we're going to visit Guatemala the end of this conversation. Now Shali ha. Apart from being reverse that meat which relates to topography relates to the way they see the land they see the water. It is also a metaphor of people coming together in bodies working communally. So this is the. Preamble to this presentation. When thinking about reverse and. Thoughts about water I asked them what is reverse for you what is waters for you. So they talk to me about rivers of tears and rivers of words. They also talk to me about this. Josh Hallum Holon which actually means waters that are always changing that are always of different greens. Before we go to what the Molla I would like to sorry to

focus on briefly and mention that my work currently is taking part in a sailboat and it is true I have been working in El Salvador and living in Salvador since 2005. An average of about four to six months. But what brought me to El Salvador the first time in 1992 was. A particular episode which Marcos also part of which had to do with the ending of the war. Now I trust that most of us in this audience knows that there was a war in his son's war that lasted for 12 years a civil war that partition the country severely and left the country in a tragic outcome at the end of the war in 1992 the two parts of the war meaning the Salvadorian army and the guerrilla army or the air for millennia for the liberation National

Front agreed upon the creation of. A peace accord First of all and they also agree. In the welcoming of the international community in the form of the United Nations the United Nations participating in the peace process and as part of a peace process agreement there was the suggestion and then the outcome of investigations of violations of human rights that had been perpetrated against civilian population. One of the many massacres in this war and in the sun is the massacre at Sautee and the case was taken by the truth commission. Again sadly not because it is the only one but because it might contain a number of very in legal terms the dogmatic aspects one of which is that there

was only one survivor to this massacre. Her name was Rufina Jamarcus and the whole case of the investigation was open was built on that particular testimony. So what Rufina says in her original testimony is that in December of 1981 they act like Kaggle But Lillian which was an elite battalion from the Salvadoran Army came to her so they divided men. Women and children and proceeded to kill everyone. The reason for which Rufina survive is very moving and very unique and we can talk about that later if you're interested. What is important in the case of Investigation is again that the whole case is open on her testimony. This is a photograph taken by sis and myself. Days after the massacre. When the peace accords were signed

the Argentine forensic anthropology team was nominated by the United Nations to be the international team that would investigate this particular case that would carry on an exhumation on the site. That is how the arson forensic team arrived first to El Salvador in September late August early September of 19 92. And although I am not a scientist I should remark this. Emphatically I'm not a scientist but I had work before and after. And also with the Argentine team in the production of the archaeological maps this was before computers had programs. That was the time in which we would measure depth and. Locations through centimeters and. Pendulous

of weight. To understand the topography of the many layers that are being rebuilt are revealed in an exhumation. So this is the place. Of animosity. The very first day we arrived. Now before our arrival. The whole location was divided in nine archaeological sites from the point of view of the investigation. The whole case was the place of crime the scene of crime and it was divided for logistics reasons in nine archaeological sites. The judge Pridgin and in the case decided that the first location to ex-CEO was going to be a small building located adjacent to the church which was called the convent and was called the convent because that was a small place in which the priest would come to town and change garments before giving mass so not a convent in a traditional form.

Roughly was about thirty five square meters. About five to seven five meters by seven meters. According to the testimony provided by Rufina. Yes. So Delfina survives because she is in hiding for a period of time during the massacre. So she is. In front of the church for a period of time and then she is being taken out to be killed in the last group of women and she is carrying her daughter. At the time. And. And in the struggle of. This scenario which Rufina is holding her child and a soldier is taking the child away in this struggle where the child actually is being killed. Rufina falls on the ground and that's how she is able to move away and hide away. So for two days of the massacre lasting about three days in total she is in hiding. So she hears what

she doesn't see what she sees when she is in front. Of the church in front of this particular building. She sees men and male teenagers coming out of the church and for reasons she doesn't understand what is the criteria. Some of those men and teenagers are being killed including her own husband. Some others are being taken inside the building. So according to the testimony of Rufina what she saw inside the building are men and male teenagers. That is what the arson time forensic team was thinking. We were going to find as I said the summations started in September October of 1992 and shortly after we removed the original tiles we actually started seeing a lot of. Human remains the presence of human remains from the very early days of this summation. There appear to be a discrepancy between what

Rufinus said and what we were finding. One of which was a larger number of deaths. The larger number of human remains. The other very disturbing evidence even before transporting. The human remains to the laboratory. Is that even looking at the scale. We were looking at the prices of much. Younger people that Rufina described. The exhumation lasted about. Two months and a half. And from all those days the Argentine team collective without exception an average of. Three to seven to 10 human remains every day. They associate with. Garman's associated objects found at the

site. We're also pointing out to the fact that the people inside the building were. Young people were children. The garments that were found the size of the Garman's and the quality of the garments were also showing that these were. This was a place in which the majority of people taken inside the building had been. Much younger. That was Rufina had said. So when you're looking at here it is the official report presented by the Argentine team to the United Nations and to the government office. And it says it is states that we have identified the presence of one hundred and forty three skeletal remains including one hundred thirty one children under the age of 12. Five teenagers and seven adults.

The arson team was not allowed to continue this exhumation. It took many years until the Argentine team could come back to this same site known as mossel day and continue exhumations. Now the exhumations were not done as part of a criminal case. They were part of his Sebille case just to retrieve the human remains and give back the human remains to the families and to the communities for a proper burial. We can talk a lot about the. Questionable process of law in the war and we can also talk about the failures and the successes but especially the failures of the peace accords. But that will take us away from the presentation today. But I am welcoming those questions. For the ones who stayed you in the week are the ones who would like to speak about this further.

As I said before I am a visual artist and not a scientist so. What I can say about the experience of unmuzzled is that it seems to be that it marks a difference between everything that happened before and everything that has happened seems. And also my art changed profoundly. The reason for which I do art change profoundly the way I think about history and politics change. And perhaps because I am an artist when I I feel confuse. I look into poetry for some assistance or so last. And this is a poem that for me was was and it is very important by chiselers Milosz. It speaks about angels and talks about believing in them. But it is this last group of verses that

inspire me profoundly day draws near. Another one. Do what you. And what is what. I can to. Keep will. Sarah Sure. I really didn't know. Certainly art was a way in which the experiences add Elma's So they found a home. A lot of my work that until Elmo sold they was timidly reaching into. Instillation work became a new vocabulary and a lot of the work became installation. And I suspect that is because in the modifying of the space beyond what the Peace talks about there was something very important about modifying a given space. It felt to me that had a lot in common with the perception of the space of the mass grave itself what we thought we were going to find what we actually

found how that modify the way in which the history was being rewritten. So installation became a new vocabulary VDO installation was part of. I would say the expansion of the vocabulary. These video installations that I have created up until so far recovers sound sculpture from the sun and from the area where we leave and also all the images are vernacular to the area so it seems to me a way in which the sun is peeking through the artist is really not the artist speaking about in Masorti and what a sun. But then. Something. Perhaps more important for me than my own artwork started happening which is that since 1992 until right now until now I've been to El Salvador every year

and most frequently I stay in a community called King but King is located four kilometers north from where the massacre place of unmuzzled the once took place today in Perkin's. We are living in a community where ex commanders of the half a million live there ex military personnel live there survivors of massacres live there and very possibly the people who carry on the massacres live there and. Everyone else including the children the children of them all. So because I have been in contact with this community regularly for so many years at one point it came to me as an invitation from the mayor of the town. Literally what she said was the following. We have seen the enormous importance of art in our community because every time I went I did some

kind of art work with the children mostly but then expanded to the elderly and the adults. So the mayor said we have seen the enormous impact of art in our community. How can we make the insertion of art a constant in our community. Why don't you come to create an art school. And I thought that was a fabulous proposal. It is very rare for artists working in communities. Usually it is the artist who has to convince the community that art is a good idea. This time the community was inviting the artists to do something. So I responded to that invitation and I went back to create together with the community the school of art an open studio of banking which is a collaborative and community based. Project. It started in 2005 and I think if I were to highlight

the most important success for me I would say that the most important success of this project is that the school is being run today by four local artists. I go in and out of but again as I said before I go every year for three four five months. But the school continues in the hands of four local people who five years ago had never seen art have never done art and today they are wonderful teachers wonderful artists and administrators. That is part of the sustainability of this project that has to work. We always say that our work is political but is not partisan and this catchy phrase is actually very potent because we have all these political tensions. We had to stablish our pressers by saying Here everyone is welcome and we are focusing on the children we are focusing on historic memory. We are not taking sides

in a post-war scenario. This is nothing short from a miracle. Quite frankly all the credit to the people of king who continues to see art as a tool for diplomacy. So we have painting classes for children and we have mural painting for children and adults. We have wood sculpture classes. We have the presence of children of our community and other communities nearby. We have very popular adult classes in painting and drawing. We have printmaking we create every project with the recognition that everything we do is the response to what the community wants. Meaning we don't have a preset up methodology or planning all the art works that we create is a response to a town meeting in which people do tell us what do they want and most

importantly perhaps is why do they want it. So this again these are beautiful pictures and you know I could tell. The whole story about each of the projects. All of these projects have in common that when they were created they were not created in agreement with all the parts of the community. In fact all the projects were created with some kind of tension. And one of the tensions that I would like to highlight in this presentation is going back to well-muscled day in 2006 when we were celebrating we were commemorating the 25th year anniversary since the massacre. I was told that the community wanted to paint a mural. And quite frankly I didn't think it was possible because the tensions in the community are. Enormous for many reasons. Most of the tensions have to do with land ownership which we can talk about that later more

extensively. To make a brief summary of how complicated the project was. I would like to tell you that in the first town meeting we were to talk about the project we were going to paint a huge mural on the new built. Church built church after the war. It's about 55 feet long by. I think 25 feet high. It's a very big proportion. Half of the community wanted to paint the massacre and the rest of the half of the community refused to accept that the massacre had occurred. So this was already a quite benevolent beginning for a community project and it took us a long time and a lot of conversations with the elderly with the youth with the children and trying to find out what the community had in

common. And they finally came back to the recognition that they wanted to paint a mural about how it was like before the massacre had occurred. So even the ones who refused to talk about the massacre had to accept it to a certain extent. So what you're looking at is the development of this incredible mural which we couldn't actually photograph together because we have trees but you're saying in part it's very importantly one of the man who was the most active voice against the mural is the one who came up with the drawings and then he transported the image on the wall of these two buildings. These are the two original buildings of the church and the convent that we axium So you know was very interesting to see that the recommendations of the Argentine team were very clear about not touching anything from the location of sorry of the place where

we had exhume. However there has been a lot of modification of the original building at the end of these 25 years. The only part that survived from the original building is this part of the floor of the original floor part of the. 2005 2006 planning of how much thought that was going to be remembered was to decide whether or not this floor was going to be preserved. And again the communities some wanted to remove the tiles. Some wanted to preserve it but finally they agreed. They agreed about creating a garden. And creating a public art project which interestingly is very similar to the actual exhumations site. When we were exhuming you know there the pyramid trail area shows the pyramid trail building as we found it at the time of the exhumation. And these are children of almost all that

today children of the same age that we work today in art are the same age as the children that we assume in 1992. So in a personal journey I have to say that is an incredible gift of enormous proportions to be able to go back to that place and. Work in art. With children. Of the same age. There's something this poetry justice in it. And we have talked a lot in our gatherings so far about transformation. And I think this is one aspect of transformation that is possible because there is a whole community wanting to be part of it. So the project in El Salvador the school of fart has been named the Perkin model. I didn't name it but it was interesting that the project well or was call and

it is being known now as the Pritikin model. It is known that way because the same way we work with in El Salvador has been replicated in many other locations in Latin America and in Serbia and in Northern Ireland. In Guatemala we have worked with survivors of massacres survivors of torture women who are survivors of sexual violence indigenous women who are survivors of sexual slavery. We have work with the community of survivors of violence in poker Namli the U.N. in Colombia. What all these places have in common is that it's a tragic history of violations of human rights and a group of survivors that have a commitment to the next generation especially in the remembering what happened. That's where art comes as a tool to produce any art form that they may decide to preserve the communal memory

transporting what happened to one generation into the next one. So we are now in Guatemala. And this is an image of a less known what the mullah what the mullahs the country that suffer a war for over forty five years. The peace accords were signed in 1996. And I am. Sad to inform that the violence in Guatemala is as active today as you in the time of war. In most regions in the north western area in the north eastern area as well. The Argentine forensic anthropology team conducted an exhumation. In the north part of the molecule. But then in 1995 and this is the summation what you're going to look at is the exhumation of the community of the two Rs very similarly to what we saw in a Salvor exactly one year after al

MAZZOTTI December of 1982. They K.B. list which is an unlit battalion from. What the mullah came to the community of the two Rs and again divided men women and children and proceeded to kill everyone. According to the testimony of the few survivors they say. They said that. The children were taken to the building that was used as the school. And the children were left to be murdered last they were taken close to this area where you're looking at. We are in the. Land area of a family called Arevalo the family Arevalo was they were building. 12 at the time of the massacre. The well had not reached the source of water yet the survivors said that the children were taken from from the school

very close to this area and it is in this in this location where all of them were killed and thrown into the well. So the exhumation that took place in 1995 was the summation to go inside the well which. Means very rapidly we understood we couldn't go in the traditional format of just putting the cord and going down because the adjacent areas. Of the well were collapsing on top of us. So we had to open a large adjacent area to make the entrance safe. And after two months of doing that we actually arrived to the original area that the top area of the well. And we started finding what. The survivors had indicated. A total of one hundred sixty five human remains belonging to people who at the time of

death was plus minus 12 years of age with an average age of seven years of age. The human remains were given to the community for burial. And Conneally. Not that long ago. A friend of mine a dear friend of mine Mimi a member of the Argentine forensic team sent me this image which also became part of the report. This is an image taken by a pacifier. In the community of the two Rs. Very shortly before the massacre had occurred. These are the children of the community of the two Rs. The ones probably that we you. So this brings me and I think as in many conversations to the question of power. What is power. What kind of power are we talking about.

Human Power. Power crouton power. This is echoed by political bedo who is a writer thinker from Argentina who wrote a book called Power and disappearances. Weapons are potentially maddening. They are created to kill. Thus providing the illusion of having control over life and death. We are now in the north eastern part of what the Maila in Altamira pass. In June July of this year. The school of art and open Sudie of kin were invited to come to pass to a place called bandsaws in ultimate I-PASS to work with 75 men. Women and youth all indigenous kicky people who are survivors of the massacre of bandsaws that took place

on May 29 of 1978. The woman in the photograph is my mockin. The woman on the left is Maria. McCain is the granddaughter of my mama King. The massacre that I Open-Source took place. Again for issues related to land and land ownership. Mama mockin was a Elisir. Leader Issa they say in Spanish of the community so she went on that morning of twenty ninth of May of 1978 to request for the land to which she went with a certificate and she also went with her granddaughter Maria. The massacre took her. My mama King was one of the first to be killed. She fell over Maria mocking Maria was 11 years old at the time and she played dead. She survived she escaped

and she was one of the members of this group of artists in I'll give it a pass. In June July of this year. We are invited to working with the Maila. We have been invited to working with the Maila many times by a local human rights organization call it up. It keeps the Daddy-O the Acciona secret society which stands for psycho social community team. The mandate of a cop is to accompany survivors of state terror in many different capacities as legal advisors as psycho social workers. They also help them relocate. And this is very important because what happens subsequent to the massacre of bandsaws is that well first of all the massacre of bandsaws is not the last but actually the first of many other massacres that took place in the same area. The survivors of the massacre of

bandsaws and many other communities imagining that the army were coming after them. Scaped to what is called Sierra Minas is a mountain range. It's about it's about maybe 200 miles from bandsaws. It is known to be impenetrable and it is in that location where the community is lived and survive for 30 years. Some of the people we work with in June-July had left the mountains for the first time only three months before the project. Although. As I said the. Peace accords were signed in 1976. The political scenario of what the Maila is very frail and people felt rightly so very insecure about coming out of meanness. The project in open source. Is similar to any other project that we create community. We first gather. And the

question is produce what is what you want. And. Why do you want it then. Furthermore we ask where if this is going to be a mural Where is the mural going to be located. And is this going to be a mural to be shown to the community or needs to be protected needs to be preserved for small groups. All those hard decisions that the community themselves take in this case and in every case we have worked in this particular case. The community chose and they were allowed they gave they were given permission to create the mural in the communal house. So if you if you were to think about this setting as the square we have here the municipality here is a cultural hall and there is the church. It is from this buildings where the army shot at.

All the people that were gather in the square. So we were painting in the cultural house a la Casa Comunale communal house and literally beyond the wall is where the massacre occurred. So a lot of the conversations that the people share was where they were located at the time of the massacre. That was the beginning of the conversation in this project. And then any other one. We start by remembering together. What happened and always presenting the question what is what you want to say. What are your memories. We go through drawings every everyone draws. Everyone looks at everyone's drawings and then there is this selection process that is being done by themselves trying to figure out from all that is being said. What is the most prominent. And then we go to the actual wall that frequent these preprepared. In this case it's a

wall that was 50 meter long by almost 16 50 feet long by about 16 feet high. And. We transported the drawings back to the actual place and once more we converse about how are we going to make this transition. Will we look at the mural. Thinking about anchors or poles of gravity and we think what is the most important image of this mural. And if this is the most important image where is this going to be located to the right to the left. Are we going to talk a lot about what happened in the land. Are we going to have a lot of space for the sky. What is the decision process. It's very fascinating to hear and to accompany all these conversations that in the case of bandsaws was. Spoken a lot. Now we have to we have to

understand and I share this with you that all these people have survive. In the Sierra Meenas only because they had a very strong community awareness or community that the praxis of community life was needed in order to survive. So the project the art project was no different than collecting food distributing it collecting water and distributing it. In fact the vocabulary was re-affirming of that that the art project was a resemblance in a way of this survival skills that they have developed in Sierra Meenas. The youngest artist were about five and six years old. So we are looking at three generations. We are looking at the elderly people who are the survivors of the massacres then the adults who are the time of the massacre were about 30 to 40 years so and they were looking at the young people who

were born in the Sierra miners who only knew about the massacres through their parents and the children who are the children of the youth. So actually four generations not three. The way we work here and in all projects is by having the community working together at all times. And remarkably if we thing any other visual artist in this group. Well if you meet other visual artists after this conversation talk to them about ownership of the image and competition. And having your voice being heard or not. I don't know how it happens. Well we are not interested in the traditional learning of Western art but my experience is that that which would make almost impossible a project of this nature in the United States or went aside as Argentina is possible in Paso's in Cologne Janja

Salvor people do come together and work together collectively mostly dividing the space through scale. The children pain blow they they young people who can go up in the scaffolding love to go up in the scaffolding while the women tell them what to do and what not to do. And the men are in the middle together with the women. And here we have a Romeo painting. One part of the project that the women thought was very important. So every line he was making the women were there to watch it to see if this was a good move or not. And here we have Maria LA Rosario and Maria Pope three wonderful women artists. Scaffolding. And here we have three young men who were left with a very very difficult task of painting my mama King. And there are the civilians of Marie mocking the granddaughter. So Maria I'm

a king and my mama can wear the anchor of this. Place of this mirro my mama kin was the most important part of the mural as they thought. It should be because of what she embodies. And they didn't want to make her dead. They wanted to make her alive. And in fact they decided that the presence of my Mama Kin was dividing the past from the present in the mural. It took about a week and a half. To go from a white wall to a beautiful beautiful mural. And at one point I said to them I think we are finished. Let's take a step back and let's see what we have done. And we did we all step back and this is this are some images of them looking. At the mural. For the first time seeing it all. And this

is what we saw. We saw the beginning of the mural from right to left. The right part is the memories of how they remember the area when they were children. Very very important part in this area. And again we can talk about that later. Is that in this area of bandsaws is where there that. The rail the train rate of the United Fruit Company was first built. That is why the origin of land ownership became such a conflictive reality in this area because for the United Fruit Company to create the railroad they had to literally remove all the indigenous communities that were living there. So one of the first memories the people had was the beginning of the railroad and how the first formation of the railroads coincide with the memories of the first aggressions against the civilian

communities in the area of pan sauce. And then the area moves the mural moves towards the left part and you are already presenting with the first images of war and the first images of violence against communities violence they never understood why it was happening. Maria pope painted her husband as the image to the right and her. There are many many stories. I wish I had the time or actually the capacity to translate but the case of Maria in a way is symbolic in that not only she saw her husband being hanged. After the man died. The Army took him down and obliged Maria to cut him to cut him into pieces. She had to cut it into pieces which she did. And. Her. Biggest sorrow is that she couldn't find all the pieces for

burial until today she's. Hoping to find some. This is the actual painting of the massacre including the presence of a local woman whose role was to kill the children who survived the death of their mother. So this woman is Lalia who still lives in Passos actually was part of the Army. She was she was a Latina. She was not indigenous. So the army. Gave her the task to collect the children that had survived the death of their mothers and her role was to kill the children. Mama King. Right here in the ME THOUGH separating the past with all these tragic memories. From the present and the future so her image and you see she still has a certificate in the end. Right. And. Two words my mama King's right. We have the

press and the beginning of a possible future. Here's one of our translators Matilda Karlan who said she was going to be the first woman to take a photograph in front of my mama. But we had all the women taking the photograph in front of my mama King. And this is the mural. Completed. This or this art is from pencil's. Unbeknownst to me at the beginning and I think was good when we. Presented the mural to the community when we. Open the place for the community some of the members of local politics that came. We learned that they were the responsible of the massacre. They had actually been part of the massacre. So they minister a local minister of

culture. And the mayor here they are directly connected to the massacre. So when we learn that. I really didn't know how to handle this but I talk to the participants I said What do you want to do. So Emilio curculio said I wouldn't talk to them. I want to tell them what happened to us. Looking at the mural so because you have this in English I will read this in Spanish. I know so throw off the press. CM But no Sunday since the 70s. And if they would I'll. Well we mustn't get up in. The end and forgive my. And on what I can look at them and said. Look I've been down. Longer that. They speak to me about it. Taqwa it's the opposites that govern the

universe. Earth-Sun vollies high and low. Woman. And man. They also talk about reverse. They run across and along many lands they adapt to the path of least resistance. Working with the power of the earth and the power of water. What I learn from them is that in my uncle Smallbone me the colors of corn represent the colors of life. Red is the birth of the day. Yellow is when. White is water. Black is the end of the day. Life. Death. Transmission. And survival. Shali ha. Are the Reavers that meet ever fluent forces that late. They speak about this movie liquid snake that meets and gathers. Rivers is life. We. Like rivers.

Are reaching one another at this time. Power. Is to know that this is true. Thank you. It is an honor. To be here and honored to be your bodies on the line. And thank you to Anna Deavere Smith and to the Nolan foundation and most of all to Claudia Bernardi. Who. Has been part of my life for a long time. And who I met. Standing one of the scenes that

was pictured in her presentation. At. The. Show. I had traveled up there. As a writer for The New Yorker magazine. I remember that I felt I was a fairly young writer for The New Yorker magazine and I felt increasing. Trepidation as I approached because this was the scene of an accident exhumation of a mass killing that had been notorious for many many years and have been known about in the United States and fought about in our politics within six weeks of its occurrence. And the American government denied. That. It had happened. Though the embassy. And. The third secretary of the IOC and others on the ground knew essentially that happened. And finally. 11 full 11 years later the explanation was happening in summation of nearly a thousand dead.

Probably the largest massacre in modern Latin American. History. And I remember very well. Feeling a kind of fear and foreboding as I approached growing up into the mountains of more of a song. Is there a way to get back to. One of your slides or. Easily. Sure. I just want to show the map that we're talking about borders. Go back to I guess just the map. Salvador we're talking about borders and one of the significance. Significances of the killing at the elbow. So. That one. Is that it happened. Hooks by. Fuji for centuries. Well it didn't you know didn't even disrupted some sorry ass for it. One of the

great significances of it was the site lives near the border. Of the political border between Salvador and Honduras. OK. Susan solaces. Photographs. Of. You. Over here. In the mountains. And in the larger context of the Salvadoran civil war. The guerrilla forces of the FMI Lansberry. Took refuge refuge over that border in Honduras. You can turn it off and I see it doing that. I think. The guerilla forces of the Kremlin took refuge over the border in Honduras and. Army operations. The American advisers American trained Salvadoran Army and were concentrated in those mountains. And in fact at the time the massacre happened right

after Ronald Reagan took power also not a coincidence. There was a great deal of killing up in those mountains because the guerrillas the ammo and looked like it might indeed be able to seize that part of the country and that some countries notably France and Mexico might recognize Morrison as a separate country which would have been a catastrophe in the context of the Civil War. And I knew that I was on my way there. 11 years later feeling trepidation about what I would find. Wondering what the story would be like. And when I finally arrived at the site. I found this very strange atmosphere of horrible images some of what you've seen. Of bodies. Or skeletons rather actually bunches of clothes because they are very small. Because the great majority overwhelming majority at that particular site where children is caught has described to you and then floating over it all the Argentine forensic team.

Who were these young wonderful Argentine women. Who and you know. It was in this funny way like a mythological scene in some way as if they were angels angels of death and also angels of life I should say because one of the things they were doing. Is giving voice. And we talk about power and truth. But they were taking things that were inanimate objects that were actually denied their existence was denied. By both the Salvadoran government the Salvadoran elite. And the American government. And they were showing that first and foremost these existed. These people had been killed a thousand of them. And. They're saying I think that this massacre. The photographs you saw from Susan my Selous. Were taken six weeks after the massacre happened. So were immediately. Confronted I think with a question which

is first of all how do you get from Again another border from denial. To fact. To establish fact. And the second transit difficult transit is from fact. Truth. Another very difficult border. We were caught. During that acts during that exhumation still caught between denial. And fact. And what Claudia had to say about the attitudes within Pakistan. About doing a mural that would actually commemorate the massacre and the fact that half of the people in the town still deny that it exists. Is I think indicative of something very real that you can get evidence you can show. What does it mean to establish something as a truth. This is it seems to me an extremely vital question. For our society. Among others.

I've been writing a lot in the last. Seven or eight years about torture. Some of it is a fact. And that indeed the government of the United States and the Justice Department of Defense other reports have shown quite clearly as a fact. That for the country it is not yet a truth. It's not yet a truth. The question is it seems to me the one that's raised vividly by Claudius is. Tom. These How do you get. From. Fact. That is from those bodies to truth. And I would argue. That truth has not yet been arrived at in either Salvador Guatemala. And that that striking mural in Ponce's. With my mom McKean holding out. I wish I could call the image up but I won't try holding out that letter is in essence a plea. For Truth. And it says something it seems to me. Very vital. She is depicted she was killed and was the most prominent member one

can speak in terms. Of that township who was killed. And though arguably it was what the police she made that in some way catalyzed that killing. She is depicted as alive. And holding symbols. A very powerful cultural symbols and a basket. And holding out the letter which is a plea for land first and foremost and secondly justice. And justice is presented as outside. Of time and space is something that is going to be constant real inextinguishable it will stay there just as she remains. As depicted in essence still living and still alive because the claim on justice. Is still alive. I should say that my first image of Claudia. At the massacre site. Was her standing on the edge of this exhumation.

With a sketchpad in front of her drive. And I remember this absolutely vividly. Several of these other photographs some clown whose job was to depict the disposition of the bodies. To make of this complete tangle and chaos of death. Some kind of conceivable and understandable spatial arrangement that you could look at. And the way she. Tackled this was to do drawings that were kind of beautiful extraordinarily elegant I wish you had slides of these stick figures essentially. These beautiful that showed the disposition of bodies and they were done on vellum or the equivalent of tracing paper layer after layer so showing each layer. Of these tangled tiny mostly bodies. There were some adults but very few. So you had these layers one after another.

I think they were 7 or 9 7 7. Depicting 143 total. Bodies which is this. You know. A 7 total of those killed. On this. Day. And then on the bottom was a depiction of. Where the bullets were found in the floor. Of convento. Which is really the Vestiaire right out of the competition said. So the bullets were depicted very precisely the bullet holes the slugs that had been found in the floor. And when you put all of these together one piece of vellum on top of another with the bullets on the bottom. Something quite miraculous happened. Which is. These depictions were transformed from depictions into a kind of truth because they showed. With the bullets in the floor. And the claims that had been made for many years then 11 years about the massacre they.

First of all that it never happened. Secondly that it was actually guerrillas guerillas who had been killed in the war. Were. Disproved. In the act of that. Art making. In other words those bullets showing through those layers of vellum showed that those people were killed or at least were shot again which is probably more likely what happened as they were lying in a heap. In this conflict. So that very active depiction. Proved something by itself. Without even the Argentine forensic. Report. And I remember looking at that. For the first time and thinking oh my god that is a miraculous. Thing. You know you don't need to be told anything. It shows you. And this massacre had been discussed in front of Congress denied discussed by Assistant Secretary of State denied. Mentioned by the president Reagan denied suddenly in the act of looking at those layers it was proven then.

So step one toward fact. How do you take that step. Second step towards. Truth. I think this is where. Claudia and I. Diverge. And where our lives since. So they in effect have taken a different path. I've going on to report on. Other wars and I've never returned. I went after I did this. Long piece for The New Yorker became a book. The massacre Vilma's. They were described how this happened. But I have never returned for any of the anniversaries or for the death of my other single witness who she mentioned. Claudia has done something very different. And I think this is another border which is. The border between art. And action. Art and talking. Between speech and silence. There are a number of ways I think we could be depicted but she can model.

As others have called it. Clearly is about that border and trying to cross that border. I have a quote. From. That really struck me. About. The open source project. But it could be true of the as well. The mural would be a book of history. That would narrate a different story. The personal testimonies that they had given to human rights agencies. This is about the punsters massacre. The book of history is one of history would contain personal stories that could be rendered as a community effort in which the memories of one person would emerge. Engage in excuse me engage a company become the memories of everyone so individual memories are transformed through and through the act of painting drawing. But more than anything else collaborating. Collaborating discussions about what had happened.

The exchange of. Personal stories that come together in a kind of rumor. To make one story. And then also serve as a way to articulate what actually. Happened and also what can happen in the future. I mean look at us. It seems to me just looking. I have not been there or reported on it but it seemed to me so striking. The narrative toward truth that was contained in that mural. That is it began in the 1870s I think late 1970s when the railroad came through a plotline that is very familiar through much of Central America. Railroad. United through. Extraction exploitation and then an attack on landholdings that is small holdings. We I think that we as Americans I think this is not true Argentines but as Americans we are almost imbued with that we can view of history as the British call it. Which is that we see we want to believe that things get better. The word underdeveloped is an indication of

that. They're just there behind us they're underdeveloped. But in fact history doesn't work that way and Central America is a great demonstration of that. We have so-called progress and then we have a ripping away or tearing away of property rights. And the 1920s 1930s and Salvador and Guatemala were a time when land that had been for generations small holdings and had given people their income. Was seized by the powerful. Next door in Salvador. You had a love of towns a famous enormous massacre that occurred during this period. But essentially you had a journey as it were back. Back. Back into a different kind of society where people had fewer and fewer rights. And eventually didn't even have the right to or the power to raise their own food and became something little more than slaves. This is it seems to me what this massacre was certainly

about during the forty six year civil war in Guatemala was certainly what it was about. And the U.S. of course. Not to make us all feel guilty but perhaps to make us all feel more informed. Had a very direct role in both of these events as the trainer of the cocktail. And also as probably. A watcher of that particular massacre and on a something. As an overthrow of probably the one positive turn in Guatemala in history that is the Arbenz regime in 1954. Which the CIA overthrew. So we were we are very much part of this. Stream of history. What. I admire. So much. So fervently in what Claudia told us today. And this is a very personal view because it as I say we diverge in this. I've gone on to write about. A lot of different violence which is of course violence is another. Border

between life and death. Occupied by violence all these places. And you've gone on essentially to try to. Heal although that word is somewhat. I think. Misleading. These people don't heal from an event like of them that they are upon us. But. In some way to integrate. These events of the past into present life through art. And to. Put at the head of this claim for truth. And truth. It seems to me as a very particularly when it comes to El Salvador Guatemala. But also when it comes to the United States. Is a very elusive thing. Perhaps it's the greatest border of all Greatest border of all. We've been witness to the difficulty. Of coming to understand truth as a society. It seems to me over the last decade or more very vividly and we still haven't reached it. You know President Obama's words we're. Looking forward not back. And it seems to me that one of the things that cloud you has done. Is to show a way

of looking. Back. Of taking and animate bones. And giving them voice taking inanimate objects and in a sense making them live again. Taking. People who have been used as means not the ends and the content. Location and making them and again. Giving them. A role and integrating them also in a limited way. In people's present lives. I find the whole process. Frankly rather miraculous. To tell you the truth. And I have you know early on I don't know if anyone here noticed it. But there was one of the early on the images where there were a lot of bones and other things. There was a little red. Horse. In on that table and I had written earlier in this book about the first day I was there.

I mean me Dorothy and unfolding one of these bundles these little bundles of bones that were this big and that had to be carefully opened and the bones taken out one by one found in one of the pockets. This little. Horse just a plastic horse. And. She cursed. And. I didn't even know where. I don't think I don't think I'd been introduced to her but I stiffened and understood immediately. What had been the shock of this that these bones suddenly were made into a living personality by looking at this toy. This was this little girl's. Toy. This little horse. Many years later I went to a silent auction that Claudia. Had which was to support actually the Perkin model as it's now called. And there on the wall was a spectacular beautiful and haunting painting. Called the Little Red Horse I'm not mistaken.

And I bought it. Not without difficulty. Somebody put their name on their mine at the last minute as people deal with silent auctions. Claudia saw me looking for a raft and came over and said What's the matter. And I said Oh I. Got the painting. She went over and talked to the person and lo and behold suddenly I had it again. So it means that. I get up every day when I'm in Berkeley. And new options House and other another echo. In this presentation. And I look at that little. That little horse. And it reminds me not only of. The death. That. I was trying to understand that brought me into contact with it but also what you can. Do with it and the death is not the ending. And these things that's not the ending at all. That's a border that's I think. Quite artificial. And your work it seems to me shows that.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Sorry. I. Just. So. Much. When.

You. Said. You would. Change. Your. Life. Do you think. The. Right. Thing. I think you know when people talk about. It. Is the comfort to being. Used.

Great. Kinds. Of. Theories in. A way you would like to. Be both. Very similar. For. I have come to think of an image that for me is very. Potent And I think of this kind of tragedy as an amputation of sorts. And I think if someone. Would have an accident and loses a leg. No one would expect that another leg would grow up you know and no one would. Now with that only leg that you have. One can learn how to dance and even enjoy travel the world but another leg will

never will never reappear. And I think that to me is. What I observe in my own life as an option and having gone through the years of military dictatorship personally and community is what I see in the people. In medicine in Colombia all these places that the tragedy is so enormous. I mean this vignette that I share with you about Maria pope. The way she speaks about it many years after the massacre over 30 years after the massacre makes her cry as it happened yesterday and makes me cry not not knowing just knowing that the possibility what it would be like if I have. To go through that. So the healing. I never used the concept I never did write about it. And if I do I will always go out of my way to explain all that I'm telling you. Now the other side

of it is that in reality every art project that we have conducted perhaps because it is collaboratively done and produce creates a new. Platform a new bridge a new frontier. And. I think all projects having come in that is very sad at the beginning when we first collect all the memories is very frequent that they cry we cry. There is there is what else can you do. I mean what else can you do when people start talking about it. But then and this is the miracle of art perhaps it's celebratory. And as we were saying today in one of I forget we're talking about the King's work and about genocide on the other side of the spectrum which is creativity to be creative is very wonderful and to be creative together brings such an amazing possibility. So we go from the first days of

sharing. Deep sorrow to having a ball and having great time and people laugh a lot. And you know in this case of console's we were working with interpreters. I I really don't know actually. I'm so sorry to say. But. This is what I see art can do. Art can bring a new frontier of joy to the creation. And it's not about holding hands and the world is going to be a good one you know. No it's not that it's something far more provocative and it is singular and yet different. Every time we create something because the participants are different. So yet again about console's I wanted to learn how to say good morning and they told me they don't say good morning. How do you say good afternoon. We just say good afternoon. Just say good night. We never say good night. Say what do you say. We say

choice. Which means. Do you have happiness in your heart. That's where you are concerned. And to me this is an incredible transformation for people who have gone through so much damage to still care whether or not I have joy in my heart. And the answer was I have a lot of joy at working with you. So whether or not that is healing I don't know. I'm open. It's not a full circle. It's a it's an unknown relation. Find. Differences. You have the. Conflict. There with. The

resolution not. Some. Kind of compromise. I just wondered. What. That. Was. Ways of dealing with tragedies. Well. You are right in saying these two projects very differently. Pencils Everyone was the survivor of the massacre of pan sauce so they had great. You know acceptance of what had happened. The memories were the same. And even for the next generation although they had not gone through it they had learned through their parents in animal soap they was. The other way around. We had a very polarized community. So I would say that in

responding to your question one of the first achievement was just the proposal of the project as I said before. So these four kilometers south of where we are. We members of the School of Art and parking went to a mall so many times and. They were so polarized. I finally said. Call me when you can stay in the same room. And they said well we cannot stay in the same room set. So I said don't call me because we can only paint this mural when you all will be able to be in the same place. So they thought about it and they sent a young person to say it we are all at the Casa go now and we're all that they come you know a good start so that for me was a very prosperous project. They have come to at least be curious enough of how this project would be. And then of course the conflict became.

Part of the structure you know. So the conversations were very well if we cannot paint the massacre and we cannot forget the massacre what is what you are going to work with. And that took another two months until they came up with this idea that they all wanted to paint the mural. Featuring what it was before the massacre and then it became again very joyous. People remember. Do you remember such and such. He had this little store and he did it. And so we were collecting all these images. The older people talked to the young the young reinterpreted and we had all the classic communal feel with drawings and he was in this selection of the drawing was where I started seeing that the community was finding a bridge. Interestingly one of the men who was very very opposed to the project and now the one who was very opposed on flooring then who refused to be part of the meetings ended up wanting to be part of the mural.

He wanted his portrait holding a book that says history very much so that still today people ask me how did you float in. And I didn't somehow change. And he wanted to be part of it. So. That is one way in which that community really changed through the project. But most importantly and this is to the credit exclusively to the community. I think one part is to paint the mural and then the second one is to take care of them you know and the place where they knew garden was creative needs a lot of attention especially in the dry season it needs to be water and it is to the credit of the community that a new committee to keep alive the monument has been. Created by people who are in favor and against something that I didn't show in the images for lack of time

is that they the two parts. Recognized the importance of having the names of the children who perish so that can recognize. So they've both accepted the creation of a very humble and potent ceramic tiles that name all the names of the children according to his senses that exists of the community with the ages starting at three months old was the youngest victim to 12 years of age. So at the very bottom. Part of the mural you see all these names and these ages and people take care of the mural. It might be a point worth pointing out just in answer to the partial answer your question that technically speaking. So there was not something made by survivors there weren't survivors. And that is a major difference between these these two things there was only one. And there's one adult and possibly one child

although that's somewhat disputed about whether. Indeed he is a survivor. So the people who are arguing and fighting though some were related to those who had died and were from surrounding areas. So it sort itself was extinguished completely which makes writing about it difficult to with. But so these were different. They were in a different relationship to the violence that happened those of us were were people who had all suffered the violence and had escaped it. It should be said again according to media following what Mark says that the recent of the antagonism is. Directly related to land ownership because there are no survivors after the peace accords were signed and after the exhibition happened people came back to that to repopulate it. This is as a side effect of poverty the enormous collapse of economy in the world the post-war

process. But because there were no documents to state who own what. It was pretty much based to first arrive first serve and that created enormous friction among families who said well you know larg is the son I am the sister of the deceased who has more right. And so that points out again to an unfulfilled aspect of the peace accords. I think the peace accords were successful in some aspects and very unsuccessful in others. One of which very important and successful proposal is the redistribution of land which has never really been done. And the little that has been done has been done very wrongly and with a lot of corruption and imprudent decisions. So they thought their refusal to accept that the massacre occurred is not so much about the massacre it's about. If they don't recognize that a

massacre occurred they don't have to deal with the fact that they are living in a land that doesn't belong to them. There's actually another even another aspect to this which is it gets to what almost there was about which was Claudia mentioned. And as I write about a lot in my book it's still not clear what exactly why exactly they killed these people at this point. One of the reasons clearly I mean this is a demonstration of violence that is you're not trying to kill the entire countryside you're trying to kill enough people to scare everybody else. Another example of using people as a means not an end but the reason those 1000 people died was because they stayed when the army came during this large operation. Now everyone else left and the people here are fighting over the land and claiming and so on. They left. They weren't there. And one of the reasons that the people know they stayed some evidence suggests is that their relations with the army were were fairly

good that there was a significant number of evangelical Christians among them as opposed to Catholics who were not sympathetic to the guerrillas. So when this operation came in two as it were empty out the area of guerrillas the people who had better relationships with the FML and left with the FML on the island. So they people stayed thinking that their relationship with the authorities would protect them. And in fact it didn't. So there's there's a further irony here which is that the people who came back and claim the land were in fact the enemy of you know at the time of the government and certainly in the military much more the whole question of the politics in the area is very complex and fascinating it still is actually. The way. I think we've answered all their questions apparently.

I'm. Wondering. Because. There. Might be some. Curious. As. To what is inside. Us. You talk about these. Major major atrocity. Once. You are conscious

which is. Your. First question whether or not there will ever be a mural depicting the massacre. I really don't know. But in a way if I if I have to answer that I would say I hope not. I hope something else will be the subject of the mural. What I can tell you is that the children are growing up very aware of what happened there and again in animals so that today there are children that are related to the survivors of the massacre and relatives of the one who perished. And there are also children that are sons and daughters of military personnel that. You know married women from what a son. It's really interesting to hear the children talk about what happened. So

I really cannot say I cannot predict but as I said in a way I hope not the whole Sautee community is in a way a place of memory. The human remains that they are in time for a sick team recovery 1992 and the ones that were recovered later 2000 in 2000 2001 two or three of four. All of them all those human remains are now buried at and so they and there is a monument that remembers everyone. People come from all over the world to pay homage to the people who perished. So this is such a. Such a. Parable. Like Mark says it's such an incredible potent. Symbol that is not only of what I saw in order to solve although it represents Latin America so people come constantly what is really beautiful to hear is. That now people come also to see the murals. And these

I have seen I have seen people who receive the visitors and say we have done this. And to me this moves me to tears when when we presented them to the community and I went there early. The community ones and the others had taken all the benches from the church outside and they were all watching the mural as if it was a movie. And I thought that was beautiful. So it has not been defaced it still is very well taken care of. I think that talks about the community and what they want to read. The other question is so complicated. I really don't know what to say. What I can tell you is that the tools I use for my art are the same tools used for the exhibition. And I was very very aware at the time of the physicality of it all. I thought it was incredible that we we're using small brushes and spoons and little tools that are exactly the same ones that I use

in my art making that it was. Frightening. It was it was. I remembered looking at these as if one would look at you know of this. Scene seen piece of something that I don't know what it was whether live life and death or whatever but it was it was emerging almost as a sound rather than a visual there was something there that I could not understand. And in regards to whether or not. It's a person or added to them or not I think Mark pointed out well although we never thought about it but yes his journey has been so different. And I admired. Mark's. Journey. I read his books although they are sad and I read them your and I have a mutation because he she goes into this channel of sorrow and for me I think after most thought they

were so matter of fact unus that emerged with it that. The poem. Of mid-last summarizes that. What can I do. And I know. The only thing I can do is art. I don't know how to do anything else. So for me together with my own art which as I said is hugely impacted by that the creation of this community art projects became an answer and I know and I talk about this very briefly when we met in San Francisco and I said I think this community work is a new level of art. I never do the the work. I never paint anything. I seem to be. The one person among many who whose task is to. Help other people create. And I it and I know that there are many artists doing this and well those are the artists that are not highlighted in art in America I think. And I guess is because. We work a

lot so we don't have time to talk about it but being is one. I mean part a lot of the project he does and his. Part of the world is similar. I think we are looking at Interestingly we are transiting the creation of a newspaper in which an artist. Can help other people do art and that is the art form. Is there work. Is it. Our vision helps others. You know I have to add just one last image to that because your mention of Milosz reminds me of something that has a little beautiful paragraph in a book of his. I think it's called the separate notebooks in which he talks about that phenomena I'm sure all of you noticed that you walk into a gallery a big gallery room like something in a room in the back. For example you see far on the other end of the wall you see a picture it's so far away you can't tell what it's depicting. You can't tell what it's about. You can't tell anything except you know it's a Titian or you know it's a

Tintoretto just by the way it looks. And Milosz and I had this observation a lot as I'm sure most people here have. And Milosz talks about that and says. You know what this is is the personality and spirit of the artist taken away from the subject taken away from everything that you can see because you see it at a distance and he goes on to say that actually everyone has that particular privilege of the artist is being able to embody it in a form that others can see. So it seems to me that one of the things that Cloutier is doing in the Parakey model among other things. Is bringing that ability to embody something that others can see. To a great many people. Who. Have been injured. Have lost terribly. But have something to tell the world and to tell themselves. And it seems to me if this is a new

genre. That's the genre. So congratulations. Thank you. Very much. And. I guess the US was wondering. Because. Earlier they were. Not. Far. For the Far Right. You suggested. That. Art. And genocide are. Counted. And when we try to imagine that they couldn't imagine our speaking. Yes. If you're thinking about instruments using the same instruments perhaps as we

continue our conversations. We should worry. About what God. Told us. What he take the Masters. So thank you so much for this. Kid.