American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with William Harbour, 1 of 2

OK, um. We'll talk about there was right what was it like in the south, what was it like to travel? well (mumble) during that era, everyone felt it was status quo, so, it was, sitting on the back of the bus was no problem whatsoever because we didn't realize that there was a difference between sitting in the back of the bus front sitting in the front of the of the bus. Matter of fact, when I went to Nashville, Tennessee I caught the bus from Piedmont, Alabama to Nashville, Tennessee, and I knew where I had to sit to go to to go to school, to go to Nashville. (Host): "But talk about the.. your, the indignities or not knowing and what you could expect. I mean it wasn't only like you were sitting in the back of the bus. You know when I was growing up was around that time or later, I packed a

lunch and black people still to this day, still pack a lunch you know so the way you had to travel in the south" it was a threat, and everybody felt that because of segregation and because of incrimination, and nobody knew knew anything better so anytime you went on a bus or going somewhere somewhere, going to Ohio, you always packed your lunch because in that time you knew you knew you couldn't go in the restaurant at the bus station and and a lot of times you got in a bus station, where they didn't have a black side of the station, colored side side, so they didn't have a place you could eat. Host: So you couldn't eat? Well.. if the colored side was not open, and people were going a long ways, like Ohio Ohio or Detroit, if you got a small town where where you didn't have a colored side of the bus station, you (inaudible), you couldn't go to the white side, so you had a lunch

shoebox with chicken. Interviewer: How did you become involved in the sit-ins (interviewer) in the sit-ins? when I left Alabama to Nashville, Nashville to go to Tennessee State, I met uh I'm was always going to church and and the pastor for the church I was attending also was the president of the theological seminary which John Lewis, and Paul Brooks and I was going to so so i met John Lewis, and he was from Alabama, and and started to take non violent non violent classes. And that's where and when the sit-ins started, I just became part of the group so you were arrested

in Nashville, you were part of the Nashville Sit-Ins? right. I was arrested several times in Nashville, I was part of the group that in radiators also a bit more than just a do lunch counters, we integrated several grocery stores, HD Hill Grocery Stores that did not have blacks. In additionally one of the things that stood out in Nashville, Tennessee besides stand-ins or sit-ins we did a lot of community projects, (inaudible) and neighborhoods that need cleaning up, painting, and so for inaudible Why do you think that this happened at that time? Why Why did this stuff start to explode, the sit-ins, the why did that really start to explode in the 1960s

What was this happening on the campus in Nashville, why why did things start to explode at this time? the change was a very common expression when students start going to college one of the things I've been doing, I look back at why I think it happened because before ....I was the first generation to go to college, and at that time you had we had very few people you (inaudible) schools, non schools, special black students going to college college and to me, when we started seeing the change, the move move out of communities going to different areas that gave us a focus on life and things we were doing, and even if we go to college, and you can't exercise your rights and as your job, then you're still in trouble. {Interviewer: So you thought that..} that that that part of if was you guys were

as somebody going to college, and things were changing for you, but things hadn't changed That's correct. That's correct {Interviewer} Were you following the riots? No, we were not following the riots We never watched them. Although we knew John Lewis who left Nashville,Tennessee, in our group We knew he was going on the Freedom Ride, but we were not following the Rides No. We didn't have any reason. We didn't, actually Actually, we didn't even think about it, until he got to Anniston, and we heard that the bus was burned. And when in Alabama in Alabama, when everybody got hurt, so that's when we really started following the rides Interviewer: Bill, more energy.. I can sit back there and you call out you you're talking about something big here. What did you think? Remember what what you guys in Nashville, when you thought you heard they were going to stop the freedom rides?

the freedom rides? Yeah, I couldn't believe it. It was amazed that the bus was burned. How could you burn a real real bus. And we started seeing the pictures, and so, when they said they were going to stop the ride, we could not believe that because we felt that if the rides would be stopped thru violence than they could use violence to stop everything else by violence, and we had already already tried to do.. So we felt, that you know something had to happen. We had not we had not made a decision to going to riot, the second riot, you know start the ride again but we knew that violence could not stop the rides because it would also help stop that part of the movement.. {Interviewer} What do you mean? I don't know what exactly what you mean. Well we felt that if the Klan could stop a activity, so such as freedom rides, through violence, than of other sit-ins, demonstrations demonstrations throughout the south, they would use the same tactics to stop them. So we had to make a decision.

Did you know how bad things were in Alabama? How you know things were bad bad with the burning bus, and and you and rioting Birmingham? I couldn't really believe it was that bad, because I was raised and born and raised about twenty miles from where the bus was burning. Anniston, Alabama is the is the kind of small town for Tennessee for a small town which is Piedmont and when they said the bus was burning in Anniston. I just couldn't believe it, because I have a lot of relatives in Annison Anniston, Alabama, and I guess the status quo had been Black people were sitting.. We felt that everything was normal and when you saw the bus was burning and people were getting beaten up in Birmingham, then I knew that a major change in the south. {Interviewer} You knew what? That that something had to change in the South, because I just couldn't believe that could happen you said that a

John Lewis had a special feeling about continuing the rides. What did John Lewis do? Well John, I felt that John had a special feeling because John was on the original original ride that started in Washington DC, and he had left the ride. ride before they got to Anniston, Alabama and for other things so when he got to Nashville, Tennessee. John felt that he should have been a part of the what had happened when the bus got to Anniston, Alabama and John had more more experiences as far as the rides, when we found out what had happened uh, he gave he gave us the background on the bus ride {Interviewer} How did you guys reach a decision in Nashville, to continue the rides? Well we went several hours, all into the night to the next day and Diane Nash who chaired most of the activities at that time time. Made several calls to Jim Foreman to the FBI, to (inaudible), and so forth, and very late the next morning

morning we decided to vote to continue the rides. And the next step was to to who was going on the ride, because we had a couple of hundred of students ahead students from Tennessee State University, (Inaudible), Peabody College College, Theological Seminary. We had to select who was the next student, who would go on the go on the ride. And the very next morning we agreed that James Babble who would was the coordinator at the time, would make that selection. Interviewer: And you were selected? Yes, I think I was selected because the bus bus had been about 20 miles from where I was born and raised, and John Lewis Lewis was from Alabama also, Troy, he was selected. Katherine Burkes, uh, was selected, she's from Birmingham, and I think one of the reasons we were selected, was because we knew the area we knew the territory, so if anything would have happened that time, we would have we should have been able to give an idea about the location, and also make contact

make contact with other folks. Interviewer: Ok, So what's the next step? You got selected well, the next step was to get money, because we were students - we didn't have money to go, we had to get tickets so forth, finally was long detail about how we were going to get the money, but we did get the money, we made several calls calls to relatives, some of us wrote letters, and others wrote wills, but student, I was a student at Tennessee State, so I didn't have any money to leave... So I just called my mother and said, how are you doing and so forth.. then went home and packed, and the very next morning, was ready to catch the bus. What did you tell your mother? I just called. I missed calling at that Sunday, for Easter, and most of the time, um, which was Mother's Day, not Easter, Easter, not Mothers Day, and most of the time all my family would be home on Mother's Day, and my mother was now I was just going to college, and I was feeling bad, and heard about the freedom rides, and I forgot about calling that Mothers Day, so I called a couple days later, but I didn't tell her I was going on a freedom ride. Interviewer: Why?

well, I knew she wouldn't understand going on a freedom ride and she didn't understand, and well she she also knew that I had been in sit-ins, and sit-ins in Nashville, Tennessee, I'd be go in jails several times, and she had written me a letter, and saying, son, you need to watch what you're doing, make sure you know what you're doing Because I don't have any money to get you out of jail... That's why I didn't tell her. umm, what (inaudible) what was the relationship, you guys were "snick"? "snick", um, Nashville Student, not regular snick, it was Nashville Student movement. What did court? say about it when you were all saying you were going to continue the rides record they were apprehensive (inaudible) had been apprehensive what had happened happened. We was told that the atmosphere in Birmingham Alabama of a very tense and that anything could happen and based on

information that they've been receiving that they could not guarantee us safety onto into Montgomery. So did they say don't go? well at first they felt that it was was too dangerous for us to go. They told us not to go Eventually, that's right (inaudible) eventually they realized that were determined to ride ride, and then they changed their mind well had the blessing of "...".. Well, I don't know if we had the blessings of "coor" in Birmingham but but you didn't have the belit wasn't unpleasant. Well, I don't know if it was a (inaudible) Birmingham knew we were coming because Diana Nash had already told them that we had voted to come and and we was on our way. So what happened when you got to Birmingham? we got to Birmingham, we stopped outside of Birmingham

the police that was in charge, got on the bus, and identified all the freedom riders and Paul Brooks and Jim Swerve were sitting in the front seat, and they were was immediately arrested, taken off, the bus because they refused to go to the back An hour later we went into Birmingham, they wouldn't let us off the bus so so we sit on the bus for over two hours or more and people started coming around and looking and pointing athe freedom riders so the policemen started getting newspapers and cardboard and plastering the windows on the bus so no one could see the new freedom riders coming into Birmingham. So we sat in the bus for two hours or more before they let us off (Inaudible) Well, what did they thought you were going to do? Well they thought we were going to into the colored colored side of the bus station, and we, I know we agreed we were going in there to just get off the bus, because it was getting hot, there was no air conditioning, in the summer Summer time so we immediately, when they let us out, we immediately went into the whites only side of the bus station. And then what? We stayed

stayed there all that afternoon, uh, late that night and the Chief of Police, Bill O'Conner came in and people started crowding around the bus station cause it was all on the news, that some new freedom riders and and Bill O'Conner came in late that night,and said that they would the rest of us put us in jail for our own protection. How long did you stay in jail? What happenned What happened next? stayed in jail overnight. Um, and and all the next day, and they were trying to decide what to do with us so the second night, uh Will Koenig (?) came in and said they were taking us back to Nashville, Tennessee, uh they took us out of the jail cell. And we got on outside, and they had two police police cruises, and a limousine, and they loaded us up without our luggage and and started driving, 1:00 in the morning, we didn't know exactly where we were going

and couldn't see, it was dark, . Ass a matter of fact they told us to make sure you keep your windows closed closed and so forth, cause they were taking us back to Nashville and made sure nobody saw us after several hour of riding we get into a certain point in Alabama to the Alabama and Tennessee line, pulled over stopped the cars, told us to get out of the car, dumped our luggage on the ground And we found out where we were located was where the Tennessee and Alabama line come together and the railroad track divide both states they turned around and left. They said, so you can catch the train or a bus somewhere. We saw no train and no no bus in sight, and it was 5:30-6:00 in the morning but the worse part about that is we didn't know if the Klu Klux Klan Klan was following us, we didn't know where we were located, we saw no telephone to make any calls to make any calls, and it was early in the morning, and we knew that if the Freedom Riders information on the information was on television, so we had to make a decision to get

secured somewhere so if anybody was following us we had to find a place to hide. So we had to make a decision and John and I discussed it. We walked down the railroad track and being from Alabama Alabama I felt we could find a place that looked like a Black community and near the railroad track. I placed basketball most of the time and I said we lived across from the track and the first house we got to, John said lets knock on the door, we knocked on the door door. An older gentleman came to the door, he said so the freedom freedom riders. He said you cannot come in, no all cannot come in, he closed the door and a few minutes later we knocked on the door again. And his wife came to the door with him and and we told her we were the Freedom Riders, she said, "you all children, you come on in" and that's how we got into the house. so just there you were able to call for help>

We was able to call for help A car came from Nashville, Tennessee and they picked us up. But first we had to make a decision, we were really going back to to Birmingham from Nashville Tennessee, who had we on the line. and all of us voted that we were going back to Birmingham, and we got a car from Nashville to pick picked us up, and that afternoon, before dark, we were back in Birmingham what Bull Cunnig, Yeah, Bull Cunnig thought were were back in Nashville on the way back, on the radio was saying well the freedom riders ought to be back in Nashville Nashville, Tennessee about now , and at that same time we were pulling into city limits of Birmingham, Alabama back to the bus station. Yeah. Inaudible Oh we (inaudible) hear some noise, yeah. Yeah, one of the things that we thought was really ironic was that on the radio it was saying the Freedom Riders should be back back in Nashville, Tennessee by now and at the same moment , we was pulling back into the bus station

and buy mammogram is yes little mad men have a new book of them believe that the crew of back again in the meantime will and ims an appeal in nashville tennessee mr i got another group opposed to the stimulus and then and so next morning we had them taken into ms dumas in ready cash to bus to london or more twice and twice as many as the audio book of a sauce again the second time where the dishes do from nashville tennessee and we looked at we had twice as many it was at first time the bell is back in nashville but when our to regroup in america i wasn't there or what we still felt that the red mosque must go deal camilli that they would relate burnham us open national

much of themself and when i'm a shoe that the big service agent it carries your interest you know it will do things for your book on elysium police chief and now mama him he was at a desk a ligament glasses on in a nearby was afraid of their own identity and a moment to low I went on the Freedom Ride, But Catherine Burkes knew Bill Cunning, She's from Birmingham but every time Bill Cunnig said something, people jumped, and he was determined that we were not going to to catch a bus out agreement among them are an in hispanic and this town and he he made sure that her to have some happy he was there well this personification

mechanic and he was like so this year only one book only and will close seven check for the whole south and when i'm jim mccomas and that's when i went they had about that he ruled the entire city even students said that when and swimming pools, the wait ins, the sit ins, in Birmingham, Bull Cunnig ruled those. Interviewer: Ok, so now you're back in the station, in Birmingham. What happened? Back in the bus station next morning and we thought with agreement had been made a testament armor and abbas in the first bus was on schedule for us to live among them was notable about and the butter i refuse to remember statement to them from both of silly or one on one life to live in the giveaway for end of a cpm and most <unk> attempt so that was i refuse back two hours later and three of

later, another bus driver who was supposed to be taking us back to take us back to Montgomery, and he refused to take us some of bush's shalom somewhere and we found out in the shower takes to work among them oh we heard private files six most of the postseason from a bus truthful postseason and back in a boston area are applying police helicopter flying the top of a bus in every four five miles down how it's among former as jake triple on the same row as a bus there's one and i felt it was safe then a bombing in on that and actually when the sleepless in ocilla journalist and women and does not amount to them or so alix leave for a while and i woke up a new among them around them the next fifteen or twenty minutes and there's no policemen no helicopter know i'll stay true with everything the pot and get a synonym we pull into a bus station

was eerie feeling recently been seen it was so covered tax accountant and john said to that maybe all said things the unbundled that said we should have a point person here wish you had some people from oh the montgomery movement here went on us and nobody at the bus stop <unk> water and lesbian families all hell broke loose you have people coming with sticks in baseball bats in and roxanne hammers him and then one of a gorilla money so badly at a little it was one lady who had no punch out one of their children with them compound and get them and kill them to kill kill and just reopened as raymond i couldn't believe that that what happened is enough to their work but it would show up even even using that type of language a roman folk

ok well when things happen sometimes wears didn't do that somewhere and it pushes by the storm oh not over really the bus station there's a mile an hour on a bus pulled into the bus station we saw no one there was no work and i was silent bush welcomed us off he got out we followed him outside of the station didn't really go into the terminal in less than three minutes the buzz thousands of people come around and acts and sticks in and roxanne and baseball that you know and it was right that it was really that now that the unused table people but palin this drubbing of the

newspaper photographers and so forth and jumps were down was the whitest of the metro nashville tennessee and then they felt that girl but why should not have been part of the freedom ride and then gm got to be the worst of all because it was wasted and the same although some of alcohol and get them into lower get them and a buddhist or for the month they just get rid of that no single line in my life so mr cain judge us some less than about it i was not the real we eventually wound up in the deal in which was all about to walk away which is a post office for all both of us so the mom refused to come in a post op eventually getting out of them and to de thousand community the

first rug that i don't think the year when the modern won't be pitching be shown tell that because of what happened in birmingham and four on the first friday came to lend him of those achievements have been showing the last four five days and the moderate in that what the information gathered good the experimental but throughout the south this was it was it was beginning to be a major issue as a freedom rider about to work the south plus the weapon often attempt i was found everywhere and so they rebuilt after a veto so so so yet to happen and affluent be a belief i guess if they are wrestling with the new surge or less alone in the south it's a clothesline the west or is it you

want to remember when i didn't you know i'm really so i think we need them i was one of those plant those outside until we got a bus and out of all those same people that the nba the first round up and remember that something so that would probably say same group but they was early <unk> in love again so i think as burma trip that the entire plant and the news coming from under armor and so they'll lose probably refer to again