Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Robinson Risner, 1981

Tell me your name. Well my name is Rubinson Reisner. I'm currently a resident of Austin Texas and have been here for four years before that home of record is ruled on some medicine into the sea of abuse. And they said Oh we'd be happy to have you all the all of them know ROSSBOROUGH. He is the personification of a capitalist USA. And as I said Will we be happy to have it. But you would have to get permission from the Russians to overfly it. All right. So he walked right up the street a block away or so didn't didn't stop and just walked up and went into the Russian embassy and said the same thing to them they said we'd be happy to have you overfly our territory or you'd need to do to get permission from the Vietnamese which you already had and then started this game of chess. Oh yeah. And then they found out you know a week went by. Or a day or something. They found out that he'd gotten both permission and then the story of how they put obstacles in his

way and how he overcame them you know till the last day and the last hour he even called brazen if at home and got him on person to person but that really upset the Russian embassy in Sweden where he was at last. And they said didn't you know Mr. Pro that you were never going to get in. He said yeah and then but he said what you didn't know is that I have over 100 correspondents on board this are these two airplanes. And he said we have received more press coverage in the last 30 days than I could have bought with 35 million dollars. And you know our plight started to change immediately after that. He's the guy that Clements governor Clements asked to head a committee to address the entire drug abuse program a problem and he being a friend of mine called me off of retirement and asked me to take the job as executive director of a foundation for him to be the action arm of this committee and that's what I am. Mainly with parents right now we're finding this is the most effective means

to breathe clewed drug abuse among adolescents is to get the parent to acknowledge the problem to become educated as to the problem to recognize symptoms to understand what their kids are going through the peer pressure that exists. Once we had to solve them we got a highly motivated crowd of people and they're popping up like popcorn all over the state of Texas. Like what would you like. What do you do in nineteen sixty four. I left the staff or the commander in chief Pacific in Hawaii

and took an assignment as a squadron commander which I had held two or three times previously. But it was it was a grand and glorious job and I loved it and I loved to fly fighters. I went to Okinawa then as a squadron commander and I was stationed there when the Vietnam fracas broke out. And so on the first strikes into North Vietnam I was sent temporary duty with my organization to participate. And I flew the first time out of dening and we struck up an arsenal or a dump ammunition dump. And then I was down there on short tours of only a couple of months at a time. After that several times flying out of court in Thailand. But it was a natural setup. We were over there we were highly combat ready. We believed that the

North Vietnamese who were communists led by the old atheist dictator Holcim men wanted to take over the rest of Southeast Asia. In other words his doctrine was the same as Moutet tongues and all of the rest of the militant communists. We didn't want this to happen. Those were our friends and we had some sort of pact with the South Vietnamese rulers and since we were a highly qualified combat people it was only natural that we would want to go and we were highly motivated and we when we were down there we did the very best job we could in fact it was kind of amusing guys were doing everything in order to get on the flight schedule and in order to be on a combat mission. It wasn't the type of thing that people were pretending to be sick or something it was just the other way people would fly while they were sick.

Or anyway just to get on the schedule to go up and participate in something that we believed in very strongly the freedom of the nation that were our friends a freedom of a nation that couldn't determine that freedom by themselves. And so I believe very strongly. And what I was doing over there. It was simply to protect an emerging nation from the clutches of militant communism. Well I wasn't intimately familiar with their culture their habits when I first went over there. I'm sad to say we hadn't studied that part of the country extensively. But I learned very quickly. I had friends there in Vietnam. Not many but. And I also absorbed there some of their culture. I understood about the 1954 division when the French was pushed out of there by the Communists.

And I felt the South Vietnamese had every right to their own self-determination. And I was over there to help them to maintain that self-determination. Years later when I was shot down. Well the second time I guess the first time I was shot down I recovered at sea but two or three miles off shore and a lot of the North Vietnamese boats had a great deal of interest in me and I had about 13 airplanes from my Force overhead and they were using me as a decoy. You might say they were just having a

ball shooting these boats out of the water. So I got back safely and was back in combat and the next day flying the next day. But the second time I was shot down I was about 10 miles north of the provincial capital of then. On that particular mission. I went to the briefing at about 2:30 in the morning because we had a nine o'clock time over target and it took a lot of time to get ready and we had all weather and intelligence and classified briefings and so forth. So when I arrived I wasn't on the schedule. My operations officer second in command had not even put me on and he was flying. So I was there before he was and I simply took his name off the list and put myself on I replaced him. And I was to rue that day for a long time. So that morning our mission was to destroy hunt and destroy five surface to air missile

sites a complex each one of them and we were to go in. I briefed the mission. We were to go in very low and very fast. I'm talking about 10 or 15 feet 600 not miles an hour. And that was to stay below the radar screen and also to preclude oral warnings of bales or whatever they used up there on that particular day and proved to be too successful before I quite arrived at my target. I was flying about 10 feet above the ground and was doing about 600. And I came to a small rise in the ground a small hill and I was going right up Route 1 north from where I had to raise up to go over the hill just a little. And when I did I was receiving automatic weapons fire right down my nose from some fixed positions. And I never quite even reached my target.

And they just shot me to pieces. I took some rounds down the intake my engine blew up. I had fire and smoke in the cockpit. I couldn't see outside nor could I see my instruments and it all happened very rapidly but we had been so highly trained that everything goes by reflex action you might say. So I did all the right things and I did them in quick succession and as I started applying climbing turned towards the water which was three miles to my right I was headed north. I could see the sea and I thought once more I'm going to make it. I had also told my fellow pilots the men in my squadron two things One is that I had no intention of being captured and that I would ride it till it blew up if necessary. I would rather be blown out of the air than to be captured. And number two is even if I were down on the ground had to bailout that I still wouldn't be captured alive. As long as I had the means to resist so I equip myself with a number of items such as two weapons on my person and eight hundred rounds of

ammunition I intended to keep that vow and that particular day I remember I only gain a little altitude before my engine quit and perhaps a second later my controls burned and two. And when this happened the stick came back in my lap and it was limp and there was nothing to tie to. And my airplane at that time pitched over and the only way I could tell it was pitch Dovers it pinned me against the top or the canopy and then I I reached around until I could find the proper handle which I pulled and it blew my canopy off and then I ejected myself. And the moment my parachute opened I looked up to see because I was going quite fast to see if I'd blown any panels out and if I were going to hit the ground very hard and as quick as I looked down to the ground my plane had already hit the ground and was in flames. And so I was quite low and then I looked around a bit and the gunfire was just thunderous.

It was a frightening sound. I'd never heard so much gunfire. And they were shooting in my wing man who was circling me contrary to my orders before takeoff if any one of you shut down the wingman get out over the water because there's no chance of rescue up that far north and the only thing you can do is get out and stand off. But he was just circling me to see what was happening. And I was afraid there were going to shoot him down and probably blow my my purse up. And so I grabbed my emergency radio out of a pocket in my survival vest and pulled the antenna out and began to shop for him to get out of there and get out over the water. And I looked at the ground and I was so close to hitting. I just jammed the radio back into the pocket. And when I did I tangled the wire over a strap where when I hit the ground I could see people running from every direction to be on hand to welcome me and I wasn't looking forward to that. I also saw a little crest of rock that I thought I might be

able to make and then hold them off until the helicopter could get to me. It was kind of a last ditch hope so when I hit the ground I hit on the side of a dike quite high to the bed very bad tumble and I released my parachute just as I was supposed to. And then I jumped up to run. I was in deep rice and then a rice paddy that had about a foot of water in it. And when I jumped up to run I was just flat on my back. I was tangled at my survival kit weight about 90 pounds. I suppose that was part of my seat originally. And I quickly grabbed my knife. I had a hunting knife sewed the scab but it was so in the back of my G-suit I was going to cut myself loose. Well when I tried to get the knife loose piece of parachute cord 2000 pounds tensile strength tied in a knot. Again given all eight Oh.

When I looked down after my chute had opened the plane hit the ground was in flames and I was very low and I grabbed my emergency radio out to talk to my wingman and tell him to get out of the area because the gunfire was just thunderous. It was rather frightening. And I looked at the ground I could see people running from everywhere to be on hand to greet me and they were not the people that I would normally like to meet on the ground. There were militia gun crews and villagers. And then I saw he was very close to the ground. I quickly jammed my radio back into the pocket and when I did I had wrapped the electrical cord around a part of my parachute harness so that when I hit the ground I took a very bad tumble down the side of a rice paddy

dike and I pulled the ligaments in my right knee very badly and then I jumped up to run for a rock outcropping that I thought I might make in order to hold them off until the chopper come in and pick me up a helicopter. But when I jumped up I was jerked rudely back to my back and found I was tangled to the survival kit which weighed about 90 pounds. I grabbed for my knife which it carried on the back of my leg and it was tethered to my leg. With an additional chord high tensile strength. And when I jerked the chord it came into a hard knot. And so I grabbed one of my pistols cocked it and it was a pistol that I had worked on personally it was a new weapon and I had sighted I I'd fired it. I knew it very. I was very familiar with it but I had also operated on the sirra pan to make the trigger pull very light so that it required hardly any pressure at all. I

cocked it and stood up ready to make a fight and when I did when my head emerged above the rice in the rice paddy I looked right down a gun boar and I didn't have my gun aimed at this guy and so I had to make a decision am I going to make a fight because this guy was already had a gun right in my head and I changed my mind. I remember telling the guys that would never be captured. But I changed my mind and I dropped the gun. Without uncocking am I grounded in the mud with my feet hoping they wouldn't find it. But an old one eyed villager had seen it seen me with it saw me drop it. He came up and while they were forcing me to kneel and tied my arms very painfully behind me. He searched around till he found it and then he picked it up and I remember still the water and the mud dripping from it and he put the barrel between my eyes and I watched his finger as almost as though I were fascinated or hypnotized and I watched his finger curled around the trigger guard knowing

full well he didn't know how finely tuned that trigger was and that was the only time out of my entire prison career that I ever wondered for even a millisecond if I were coming back alive or not but an old chieftain I found out that night. Reached over this man's shoulder and grasp his hand and the hammer and took the gun away from me and I breathed a big sigh of relief. And that was my capture. The wave as well as the next. They tied me very tightly. I made some signs. I groaned very loudly and they loosened the bindings a little bit and then they took

me to a nearby hut and then the potential rescue planes began to come on to the scene and circle overhead and this frightened the villagers. They quickly took me outside took me into Cayne feel and tied me to a tree and there I spent two or three hours very uncomfortable and the gnats and the insects eating me in my hands were tied. I couldn't find the moth but they were afraid the airplanes would see them. They were very educated unsophisticated when it come to knowing about modern equipment. Could I break here for a moment my nose. It is so true. Thank you for saying yes. They seem to act like that even from 30000 feet. Those

pilots could actually see them down there in the undergrowth. In course that's impossible you can see a tiny figure of a man but they were very apprehensive. Any time an American plane would come over they would run for cover. So ice remained tied up until about dark and I kept wishing those aeroplanes would bug off and leave me in my misery because it would have been nicer you know of course they were attempting to locate me. I had managed to cut or get one of the villagers to cut the cord to my radio before they had tied me up and thus destroyed their capability of decoying the airplanes down. So they then took me to a hut nearby and they began to go through all my belongings and they stripped me down to nothing and then gave me some peasants.

Well stripped me down to my underwear and gave me this peasant's pajamas to put on which were threadbare and cut off at the knees. They took everything and then they allowed me to lie on a bunk a wooden platform and even put a mosquito net down around me and they were going through my things and they were inventorying my gun my ammunition my Bartter material everything I had and I was watching them. They found my hideout gun. It was a little 25 Beretta and they were very intrigued by the fact that I had all this ammunition and the two guns while they were inventoried I went to sleep but i slept for a while. And since that time I have noticed that perhaps it is not unique but I do have the capability under high stress conditions. I can go to sleep. This is a defense mechanism my I feel and so I went to sleep and slept for a couple of hours when I woke up it was totally dark and they had a candle going and ice.

I walked that night even though I was practically incapacitated. I drug one leg and walked long hours that night until a truck met us and then I spent two or three more nights only at night was I moved by truck until I arrived at Hanoi. Several days later in the morning and I they took me out the back of the truck finally and put me up in the cab so that a guard wouldn't have to ride in the back. And it was much more convenient to them and of course is much more comfortable for me because I didn't bounce around like a baby and the roads were cratered and it was very rough. And we arrive. I could see the road sign through my blindfold they had me blindfolded and and tied but I could see through it and they didn't know that I could see Highway 1 the whole way and I knew where I was. You know basically when we arrived in Hanoi and these two guys that took me there must've gotten out of the truck to go ask directions and left me sitting in that truck all by myself and very

curious people came up and stared in the windows surrounded the truck. And one young guy that looked like a college student said Yankee go home. Now you thought if I only could. So that was how I was captured and finally taken to the Hanoi Hilton and. When I arrived at the Hanoi Hilton I remember that the truck stopped and there was a big clanging of gates and we drove in and we drove into a driveway up an incline. I remember those gates closing in. It was very ominous. Then he unloaded me and took me to a place that was later called the acoustic room. It was an interrogation

cell and they left me there for several hours and no one came to check on me. And he just left me in there. I heard a Ping-Pong game going and I thought well this is not going to be so bad. I guess they are recognizing the Geneva Conventions and we're allowed to be out in the courtyard. And it was very pretty courtyard. And we're going to be able to play games tonight. And at that time I thought the war would be over by June of 1966. This was 65 because I had been in a briefing in Hawaii with the commander in chief Pacific when Mr. McNamara had been there and I could almost quote what he said. He told Admiral Felt the commander of the chief Pacific said don't make any provisions no build any buildings make no plans for this war to go on. After June of 1966.

Because it will be over. I took that word with me into the prison. Of course my credibility continued to drop after we were there several years but I was to learn to my astonishment they did not recognize the Geneva Conventions when it came to us. They were a signatory as was the United States but Holcim men went on public radio. I suppose you called a public radio and made statements to the effect the Americans would be treated as pirates and they would not receive the treatment prescribed by the Geneva Conventions on treatment of prisoners of war. So to my astonishment we lived or I lived and many of the senior officers shared my plight. For the most time now OK. And there was no one in my cell. I was alone and I prayed silently

but I put it up to God in such a way that they could be no mistake. Couldn't have been a coincidence. Not even one in a billion is it. Why did this and more than one occasion. I had to have absolute proof that there was somebody hearing me that I wasn't praying to a figment of my imagination. I had to have that in order to stay alive because I was going to die I was going to kill myself so I that happened to me. And if we knew each other for a period of time I could tell you that de-construct This is the event with courage and courage which you all know the this I was after being put into a interrogation. So

after being put into an interrogation cell I was left entirely alone for several hours. And during that period of time I wondered if there was anyone close by. And so I began to saying what was it. McNamara. My name is McNamara. I'm the leader of the band. I used this song and I said and I would sing loud enough that my voice would carry out of a cell you know hoping someone would hear me and I said My name is Robbie Reisner I'm the leader of the group. Listen to my story and I'll give you all the poop. So I shut up for a moment and suddenly an American voice came back and said this is. And he told me his name and so I had my first contact before interrogation started. Now at that time when I was captured there was no torture going on. I was captured the 16th of September 1965 and then

through some unique circumstances I maybe I helped perpetuate or precipitate the torture. I don't know I was then moved after a couple of weeks now. I had many interrogations in the two weeks I was there at the Hanoi Hilton but I was giving only name rank serial number date of birth. I was they tried to intimidate me. They brought in I counted 14 different interrogators and one of them was a woman and they would threaten me and tell me all kinds of things. But of course I I kind of vacillated. I didn't believe them basically But I knew they were capable of maybe executing us you know. And that didn't hold too much grief for me. I had made my peace before I or you know before I even flew my missions. But after a couple of weeks it moved me to a new camp and there they began to interrogate me during the night

the day and try to wear me down. But at that time there was no torture. And then one day I had a visitor and they made me stand just very tightly against the wall. A man came in. And I'm not positive but I think it was bow and jump there. Or they call him Mr. Defense I suppose. The commanding general and he had a very thick neck. He was dressed only in a pair of slacks and a white shirt rolled up. And through the camp commander who spoke. We called him the dog. We named each one of them you know spoke rather good English. And he said You see they had a dossier on me when I get there and they had the time magazine that they presented to me and show that they knew who I was. And in the interrogation they made a comment that I was amused about after that for some time he said we know who you are Robinson Reisner said everyone in

Vietnam knows you see my picture on the time magazine said with a banner across my chest who's fighting in Vietnam and then a feature story and I'd come back to the United States and made a quick tour and had some press releases and so forth and basically told them what we're doing over there and I thought we were making a big impact on the whole team in Trail and the bringing in but equipment to South Vietnam. So he said we know who you are. Robinson Reisner and I knew it when he said what he followed with that he was only making a point. But he said there's only three other people we had rather of captured than you and that's John's Johnson McNamara and Rusk. And I thought Boy I'm picking a tall cotton you know. And I was to regret the fact that I was Robinson rising or during that period of time I was in prison because they had pinned so much undue importance on the fact that I had received some publicity that I

was featured on time magazine cover and that most every pilot who was shot down were fighter pilots and they all knew of me and so when they were asked you know Robin's right and they would all say yes well that just made me seem more important than I was. And so they constantly leaned on me. So after the interrogations were over at that particular camp they moved me them to the place we named the zoo and their interrogations continued. But they got no place because there was no reason for me to give them more than name rank so number and date of birth until finally they caught a piece of paper that had been written by one of the P.W. that I was using kind of imagine he was in next to me in another cell and I could tap through the wall to him and send messages out to the rest of the people in camp. And he was this was taken from him with bayonets and it

gave my name shouldn't have should have used the code. My code name but someone had slipped up and it said brought Robbie on it. So my fortunes went downhill from there and they took me back to the Hanoi Hilton. But my legs and stocks and I spent 32 days there and pretty primitive conditions they allowed me to live in my own body waste some of the time for four or five days at a time I got no food or water. They were trying to weaken me to make me give them more than they might some day and date of birth. Well at the end of about 32 days they had brought me a bowl of green substance like alfalfa and it was supposed to restore my body functions I had lost control of my bowels and the urinary tract and so forth by just being locked in those stocks all that time and not having very much to eat or drink. So I felt I tried to write a message on the bottom

of my pan that little dish had brought the soup in and the garden caught it. That night they came for me and they tortured me all night. They took me. I won't go into the details. But during the night I would. I tried to endure the pain knowing that an American military man should be able to endure torture until he died but never give nothing to the enemy and never to give anything to the enemy. And I tried my best and my best wasn't good enough. And during the night I heard someone screaming in a distance and I thought Man they are torturing another prisoner and I felt so sorry for him you know. And then I would come back more closely to consciousness and found that it was me I was hearing in the distance I was the one that was doing the screaming and they tortured me all night and by daylight they

had reduced me to such a place that I would give them more than name rank cell number date of birth and they hurt me pretty bad. They put my shoulders out of joint and I did some things to my legs but I found out that I was not as strong as I thought. I couldn't be tortured to death that my will would give before my heart stopped beating. That was very disconcerting. I lived in abject misery for the rest of the time I was a prisoner knowing that I had not upheld the standards that I expected of everyone else. Certainly it did. One thing that made me a lot more compassionate to other P-Dub is who might be called upon or forced to give more than name rank serial number and date of birth. It just

used get all the torture that was favored with the Vietnamese It was what we call the rope trick or getting bent. It was simply. Now when they they torture me the first time they were less than scientific I'm sure they did not intend to yank my shoulders out of joint. I don't know. Nor. And they damage the nerves in my arms and hands for a considerable period of time. They learned how to hurt you without damaging you sometime later. But on that particular at that particular time they were just they were trying to hurt me. That's all they wanted to break my will. Certainly they bent me all out of shape but they started with my wrists and with me still in stocks. They tied my wrists is tied as two men can tie that. And of course it bit right into the bone. The

ropes they were using. And then when they got me to the torture chamber they had walked me around barefooted. And let me fall down stairs and so forth for a while I was in kind of a battered condition. Then they started with my wrist with my arms behind my back and wrapped my arms together under the arm pits. Well the two arms were together and they just pulled my shoulders out of joint. And there was that. And then they did some similar things to my legs and I was in intense pain. Well their favorite trick now they became as I said more scientific after that was to use the ropes and similar matter but not pulled the shoulders out of a joint. They would simply tie your arms at the elbows where you have nerves exposed slightly above the elbows and that was pain inducing by itself that would tie your arms behind your back and very tightly sit you on the floor. Cross your feet in front of you run a rope from your bound arms across one shoulder. And around your crossed feet

and back across an opposite shoulder and through your bound arms. And then with one guard bouncing on your shoulder blades with their knees. The other one would take up slack. Each time he bounced until your feet was firmly in your mouth or under your throat and they would tie you and leave you where the body was not meant to be a pretzel and it protested the camera roll over for the day. There was a period of time. When I was ill. I be and I was old enough to become incoherent. I had been given a room mate at that time. This was to soften me up and prepare me for a propaganda

stunt. They had planned which I had no knowledge so I had a roommate for four months and 11 days. Very young lieutenant who had been in the service only a short time but. Anyone know he was a wonderful companion. I was so lonely I would have taken a snake or a rat or anything you know to be mine to have something. That's how lonely a person can get. I don't take a North Vietnamese gladly. But I had a roommate and then I came down with a kidney stone. And they did nothing for me and there was a period of about. 10 days when I took no nourishment food or water. And finally I became incoherent. And then they took me some place and they put a needle through my back into my kidney and gave me an injection and evidently was. Effective and I recovered and it was shortly after that that

they took me into the interrogation room and then I met the cat. The cat was the top man who dealt with American prisoners top Vietnamese. He was he was rather a vain person but in a kind of a subdued way. But he was intelligent. He was always trying. To make me feel that there was a certain relationship between us because we were commanders and we were fighting men even though we were on opposite sides there and I quote him could be mutual respect. The only thing is he was always after something you say. And any time he showed up like I quit knowing that. So when he showed up this time and he said is old one. No it isn't. Oh OK.

Yes. When the cat appeared on the scene it was not for a good reason or it was for a good reason for he as he was concerned but. I anticipated great results when he showed up because he wanted something. And on this particular occasion. He said he was going to let me and I quote him. I talked to some of my fellows unquote. Well my fellows normally meant prisoners of war and fellow prisoners. When I asked him and he said no these are not prisoners these are our countrymen. I said from the United States and he said Well not necessarily. So now I'm getting down to the crunch of it. He's talking about other Caucasians but they could have been anyone. Normally they were communists you know. Certainly they were not friends to us or they never would have been there.

And so yes I quaked a bit thinking about the grimy details that were going to occur before. The final decision was made because I resisted. And he had everything on his side. So he's I said I I don't want to see them. And he finally got down to the point where he said you have no choice and he said you are going to meet with them and talk with them. I said I cannot. I had to learn before through punishment not to say I won't. That was rebellion to them. So I said I cannot. He said. How many times have you opposed me. And I didn't answer. There was no reason to. He said Have you ever beat me. I didn't answer that either because I hadn't. Just just partially. In other words he never got all he was after. He always got something he was willing to hurt me bad enough. So he said.

You will do as I say. And it was a question. And I said you know I cannot I'm an American fighting man. So he said you want the ropes. I said no you know I don't want them. But if that's all the choice I have then I have no other choice. So he hollered at a guard big hug who was one of the chief torturers. There were two of them. Big hug was vindictive. He loved to hurt you. So he they all left. He and an interpreter the cat the interpreter left big dog with me the guard and he began to burn me all out of shape. And then after a while I began to make the noises that an animal makes when he's in pain and they evidently didn't. There must have been another American prisoner or prisoners in the vicinity because they didn't want me screaming. So he attempted to stuff a bloody bandage into my mouth and.

I bit his fingers and then he took my I had a whole team in sandals which is part of a used rubber tire. He took that and stuffed the bandage into my mouth. He stuffed so far down my throat until I was on the point of suffocating. And that scared me. I don't know why I wasn't scared of dying but that's not being able to get my breath was scary. Well. After they had exposed me to pain long enough they came back and took off the pressure. And this time I decided to play it smart. I wasn't going to let them put me to the point or take me to the point where I had no resistance left. I thought out I was still. This time I'll just be smart and I will. I will choose devious ways to beat them if I can because I had never won anytime before except just by being devious

and. Cheat or lie anything that I could. So as a net result of this. And through threats he brought me to a point where he gave me a list of questions I was going to ask. Whoever the guests the visiting dignitaries were. And then the. The answers he provided also. He even forced me to say the answers on tape so he could take it back to the higher headquarters and prove to them that he had subdued me to the point that I was going to play ball. This time I had a roommate. This was all attempt to soften me up. This was the carrot and stick. My roommate was the carrot. The threat of torture and the torture was the stick and then the morning that was supposed to be taken to see whoever it was it was going to interview me. They gave me two pictures of my family. It's hard to describe my

feelings but since I had been gone I didn't know if any of the children had been killed. I didn't know if they died of the disease. I didn't know anything about them because at that time had received no letters so they gave me the two pictures that the dates on them they were recent pictures and nothing that I ever possessed in my life. Meant so much to me as those two pictures. It showed me that my family my five boys and my wife were all right. They were healthy and well. And then because they knew of my great faith of God. They had hung a large picture of Christ on the wall over their heads. This was included in the two pictures. I had in those two pictures. The most valuable possessions that a man could possess. And so they took me down

get. Those pictures of my family were my most prized possession ever in my life. Because they were so meaningful. They were a link. Of my past present and future. And then they took me. To the place I was to meet with the foreign dignitaries. The next morning. And I told my roommate before I left I was distraught. I didn't know what to do. So I told him to get ready to leave. I said they will never leave you with me because I'm going to fail them. I cannot. Force myself. To betray my country by making false statements. And you know they're not going to leave you with me. So. This is basically what happened through several sequences of filming. They

asked me questions which I did not answer as they had brief me to do. At the end of the filming. After many threats. And attempted intimidations. The East German filming crew. Asked me for the two pictures and they said We understand you've received two pictures of your family we would like to use them and we'll return them to you. And my heart just sank to think about communist hands on the picture of my family that I love so dearly. But they made a mistake. They put me back in my cell for a few moments before they came for the pictures. And amidst many tears I took those pictures in the tiniest possible pieces. Roll them with a rock into a piece of paper and sunk them in the refuse bucket which was quite full. And when they came for the pictures I simply said I destroyed them and they hovered for the guards and I started

10 days of torture. They used the ropes on me twice and I went as long as I could go. Each time they only wanted to know where the pictures were. Each time I said I've destroyed them. After the second application. I didn't have any willpower left in fact I was paralyzed at that time. They'd treated me rather badly. And so when I said I've destroyed them the second time they said you want more. I said I can't take anymore and I couldn't. So I said I'll show you. They drugged me to my cell. And I dug the remnants of the pictures out of the refuse bucket and. Yes. And let me complete what I was saying a moment

ago that the Vietnamese because I did not come through for them. Then tortured me for about 10 days and nights. And it was the worst. They hurt me and they did that because they had lost face. During the whole period of time we were in prison we heard of protests. Of course the enemies. Exposed us to four hours minimum of propaganda a day because we had slave speakers on every cell. There was no way to get away from them. So they dreamed up all kinds of wild tales. If 200 people marched on Washington they made it two hundred thousand. We learned how to deal with the numbers. Of course every protest. Every anti-war speech made by a person such as McGovern. Jane Fonda. Gilbreath all of those. Only encouraged the Vietnamese prolong the war. Worsened our condition and

cost the lives of more Americans on the battlefield. And what was the other that you wanted me to mention. It was the 26 of October 1972 when on the slave Speaker we received a program you might say. It turned out to be almost verbatim the agreement that would be finally signed between the United States the South Vietnamese and the North Vietnamese. And although it was different and was very interesting to finish Shabbat it sounded so typical because the Vietnamese said but the representative of the United States did not show up in Hanoi today. Therefore there will be no agreement and you will not be going home by Christmas maybe never. And so it sounded you know and then they took me out of the cell and took me to the commanders.

Office where he said. What did you think of the radio program tonight. I said what radio program. I didn't want them to know we had. Had any special interests. He said I know you are very sad and I said why are. He said you and your fellows are very sad and I said why are we said. He said because now you know you will not be going home for Christmas. I said we never expected to go Christmas. I said we know we are political prisoners. And don't you think we have been lied to enough that we're not going to believe anything that you all tell us. You see I was much braver because torture had not happened to us for quite some time. Previously I would never ever tempted to say that because they would have simply tortured me. Well he said to his interpreter you are a very good actor. And from that day forward from the 26 of October 4 and signs increased until the day we were released on the 12th of

February. 1973 which was to bring us back. By C-141 air transport aircraft made into ambulance type planes that brought us back to freedom landing at Clark Air Force Base Philippines. And that is in short my life under the control of the Communist Vietnamese. Yes the bombing attack in 1972. There were 19 senior officers in my room at that time. This one place that we were held. And that was it. I don't own nine o'clock at night. Perhaps when we heard the rumble of jet engines it sounded like squadrons of fighters. You

see no bombers had ever come that far north. They had not been permitted to bomb bomb north. Well we heard the bombs start hitting. And we thought this is the first time they bombed North in a long time the fighters hadn't even been up for some reason. Well then when we heard the bombs start landing a half a mile short. Of the prison and walk right by us and string we knew it had to be bombers because fighters don't care that many bombs. And the jubilation was unbelievable guys jumping up and down and clapping each other on the back. People hollering and shouting and the bit mommy's guard excited and poking his gun in the door and telling us to the movement to get under our bunks. You see they normally made us get under our bunks which were normally seen that. They said for protection simply so we could not see our own airplanes and have our spirits raised. You see. Well in this particular room our beds our box was a solid slab of cement on which we placed all of our grass mat side by side.

There was no place to go underneath and so it was ridiculous. Everyone was laughing about it but the guard cocked his gun and prepared Kick-Off around and I told everyone to lie down on their bunks. I was afraid they would go on to somebody and the excitement was going to get hurt. And then they came for me and the one of them looked in the door and said you know they are trying to kill you. I said they're not trying to kill me. They are trying to kill you. Well he left on a run and they came back and got me and took me to the camp commander's office. And he had changed everything around by the time you know it was typical. The guard told the commander that I said I was glad they were killing women and children. I hadn't even mentioned women and children. Well that was the first night of the bombing and of course our hopes were high as could be because we knew they could not stand the pressure of our military might even with conventional warfare very long and we were right and we were out of there or the agreement was

signed. Not long after that. Because as Mr. ROSSBOROUGH who had a man in Vienna Chan talking on a daily basis to the ambassador from North Vietnam. As he ask that man during the Christmas halt after about five days of bombing. What do you think your government will do. This Vietnamese a younger man not so hide bound by tradition said we. I see we have only two choices. Either negotiate peace or commit suicide. And that's what happened they negotiate. I'm I'm going to really have to run. I wish I had friends to talk to you if you have any questions I can answer.