Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Edward Geary Lansdale, 1979 [Part 2 of 5]

There you go. Let me move forward. No no no no. Oh I see your mug shot. Making a mess of life. Yeah I want to go into that. Ready to go.

If you could project a little forward and could you talk a little bit about what were the flaws in CM What were the shortcomings or weaknesses that contributed to his eventual downfall. The main weakness of the early days of us holding office highest office in the land was that he didn't trust us subordinates to get the job done correctly. In other words he was on the go executive. He tended to want to do most of the work himself. Instead of delegating it to a cabinet member to a member of his personal style or someone part of the executive department a consequence of that was he had so much on his plate that they could just get one

thing done at that time and do it rather slowly because there are other pressures on him other interruptions all the time and he tended to put something to one side and hold it until he could come to a resolution of the problem and to do the actual signing of things and make the final disposition of things. This of course left a cabinet and a group of sometimes able sometimes not so able Vietnamese not doing their jobs whining to and and. Becoming a little resentful of being left to one side and the other the other. Thing that happened was he he knew a tremendous amount about the history and topography and resources economic

resources of his land. I have never met another Vietnamese that knew as much about those subjects as he did. Personally when something or it happened he would tell me not only who had been involved but what go into our family history tell me who the man's father was why he had handled something the way he had and usually go back about 200 years and history of a particular little place and tell me why the people felt the way they did about things said by this man who had known that it got and it was too bad that he had done what he'd done. But his father had also taught a lesson in its own history. Amazing detail so that the end result was a fascinating person to talk to but the talk would go on and on while the kettle was boiling with political problems coming up and crises situations and so forth which he wasn't meeting at the time.

Them. He finally became Bessy doing his job of delegating some things and getting the papers at the office desk and working thanks through. But as they did that they were suddenly missing from his life. A lot of gossip about the people that keep him current with all these families that they knew and other people and they are the person who supplied that was a brother knew his brother knew organize intelligence services to serve that country nationally to be focused against the enemy up and Hanoi but increasingly so the political cost of rivals and opponents and some supporters. Throughout the country in South Korea and

I know this after I'd left fifty six and coming back on visits later here's briefly that they gossip about people became a little more biting and damn well tell me a little more vicious about people than I've ever known before and as a friend I had warned him not to just rely on one source of information but to spread it and turn to friends as well as his brother and get different viewpoints of what was happening up in there. And if the views became too contradictory to get up and say something for himself I think that towards the end of his life he was relying a great deal on his brother Nhu for information about a situation to get a political feel of the feelings

of the people in an area or of a group. Perhaps the brother knew was little but kept up with as its own intelligence agents and people gathering information who are sometimes self-serving so of a wrong view came up of like the situation and way that causes final actions against Buddhists up there that caused his final downfall. And his reactions are those of a man at the end of a long pipeline of information and saying things only from an office and from a capital city and from a background that he had never had before and that if he had gone up eyeball he sings himself on up and same for himself and talked to people for himself he was making decisions that I don't think he ever whatever to them

is own from first time fuse. What was your impression of his brother knew what kind of a man with whom you spoke his brother knew. Was First of all a very handsome person. He could have made a career as a leading man him. It was a clean cut sort of a boyish charm. I'm extremely bright. Masterfully intelligent person very charming smile and one to turn the heads of anyone when this was happening to some of the American cows who were in Vietnam and I knew who used to tell me how good looking a man was bright and

he had. A good education. He was intellectually ahead of most of the people that he was around at the time. And without of course an ego all of that. Let him look at what every said and then came to conclusion is about a thing practically infallible. And I think he was deceiving himself there he needed an ego to be in a position. But finally ran away with it. I think finally he probably thought he was smarter than us brother and knew best for the country what to do. Of more than a brother. I think that the family relationship broke down somewhat at that point. I

suspect that the long loyalties with plain to have become somewhat of the done not. Not terribly so but it was frightening at the time. I last saw the two of them in 1961 and ordinarily. I had just seen alone at least for a period Jem'Hadar asked me to come and sail at the palace and his brother sat there brother who sat there. And our conversation. I would ask a question brother when I answered and I would say I didn't ask you I was your brother here and I am to respond directly to those own feelings and ask him questions about the situation and about some of the rival political figures and some who have been loyal to the government but opposed to him personally so that I could

talk about them freely with him. And I was quite surprised that the relationship between the two had disintegrated at the pit. Dan had been charged by a father to take care of his younger brother so that he was very happy to do so very proud of looking out for him. Very proud of Gnus intellectual abilities and boastful a bit about it as you would be of the younger brother that you felt was really getting the hat but partly this has changed somewhat. Then 61 the course they overthrow took place two years later so I presume as this situation I still continued to grow up. Lol difference between the brothers. What about you madam.

Madam newest Press one of the most tragic figures of our day of hate and that lovely lady who calmed and grown until the Tiger Lady of a person of tremendous emotional bitterness. Of unguarded tongue and almost a vicious manner towards others. Madam new came from a very prominent social political economic family from north and from South Central North who was brought up by a beautiful mother

a socially elite father group family group and lots of daughters were trying to make a very good marriage just financially and socially and she knew all of the social graces of hostess and a household of wealth and culture so that her her. Training ought to be a gracious lady who would invite people who knew how to make conversation on the dinner table to entertain at the grand piano in my salon and live a live a life of quiet charm. She married a man who looked just so this was going to be his life and a colonial. But and

her her more toward a sissy started to have children. As life became more interesting to do it now she would come in to ask if anybody would like to her play a piano in the salon. Her husband was busy with his brother. There were some terrible problem taking place. There might be military types come running in with their problems and they might be alarmed that the policy was about to be bombed or something. Something very ladylike take place something very unsocial and they men would say no no you just leave us alone now. So she couldn't act or her true role that saves you time for life. So try to move over into their field to be closer to them and. As such a sea loomed into the

limelight more and more she attracted much malevolence and public opinion and so forth. Whether self is a target and I recall talking to or in later years and what si told me of how much of her all the time to be hated and she had emotional problems. This feeling of hatred and this was being expressed in ways it's a given that the press and conversations and. Journalistic talks weather and so on and this hurt her very deeply and I think that a lot of her responses seem so ugly to us in that context or her attempts to use words that she didn't know quite their fine meanings. I think

her talk about killing monks came as he was trying to use American Sign with American reporters of just terribly out of place. And so you have been hurt by it. Some of the American diplomats wives who would become rather catty in her presence about what she was up to even are her personal sex life was being maligned all the time that she was sleeping with the sight of the next general or person and a Vietnamese army or and macadam and so on. Let's. Instead of doing such activity she was in the nursery with the kids and I mean this. This hurt some of the Vietnamese generals spread these stories themselves and we know of course that generals find it originally possibly to their liking

and some of them were some of the Vietnamese dentals also looked like Hollywood movie idols and get help there and much of it do you think there was nothing to those stories. I think there might have been friendships with playing some of these people and I don't know. I'm not an expert on what happened and I wasn't around but when I was their behavior it was completely acceptable socially. I didn't see any side glasses or cutting going on you know handsome or hips or whatnot. I really don't believe that it was anything more than. One thing we tend to overlook is that there were other brothers in that family and for example would you say that the influence of some of the other brothers was very strong on the Bishop.

For example some of the other brothers have influence and push up the oldest brother in particular. Some of them were or. Out of the country most of the time because Jim trusted them and he would send them on diplomatic lessons one was at the Court of St. James as the Vietnamese ambassador another was in France. As a very important buffer but plain French government and the absentee Emperor who was now them an exciting time and one brotherhood the youngest of them all stayed up and stayed with mama and kept the family home going up and away. But best of talk was. Person First of all those whose activities or in the countryside and then the later days he was

down in the south in the Mekong Delta and frequently in the midst of fighting with the sea and the Vietnamese army but with a very wide acquaintance with the people in the villages and farmers in the countryside who would bring this knowledge to one of them when I talked to a brother and was very blunt and talking to a brother. About what people felt and sometimes when I was a little worried about too much information one sidedly coming from brother knew I would urge him to get his brother. Later Archbishop them too. Ask him what what was happening there or to let him go on the part of the country on find out and his own views on the thing tumbling down. One point about that you haven't mentioned and that was that. You mention that GM has

had it in many ways a mandarin outlook the other thing is that he was a Catholic. Which was not a majority religion and Vietnam. Do you think really that he was the kind of man to govern a country that was in a revolutionary situation. Was jam of my own. Catholic minority group plan to lead a country or revolution or so to it. Let me answer it this way. He was a man who had been in public life before which few other Vietnamese had been. He had made a name for himself as early on while he was part of the court a way

to urge the French to give independence and freedom of action to the enemies to govern themselves. This is a very courageous stand taken and one that was well known throughout the country. For that very Some Hope urged him to join ho's government and if one of them I say a very independent highly patriotic. Person. So in Vietnamese eyes here was a patriot heading the country of times of stress. Certainly is nothing wrong with a patriot heading up a government and revolutionary system situation when almost everybody in Vietnam knew that a lot of very important posts and

early coalition government that the Communists. It's shortcomings for those of practically any Vietnamese at the time. Since none of them have really held high administrative or executive course. And I talked with many of the Vietnamese who later became ministers or chiefs of departments or or bureaus and their government had had to set out practically at the door during fronts times and be the receptionist. And some of them knew that unless your are of this department the main piece of work was to stamp paper. Now there's what the front to do not to run a department not to run programs but to sit there and be clerks. And they had a great deal to learn about handling their own terrorism and running a government.

One observer and yet for an American certainly the pike once referred to Vietnam as the land of the double cross and which will Vietnamese are maneuvering against each other. There's very little cohesion in South Korea. What could you comment on that. Vietnam was a major social problems and the lack of cohesiveness and that society. There there were families. It's basically a family structure but once you leave the confines of the village what. Is not only the basic and politically and socially but. It's perhaps an only place where there is some cohesion where elected

rulers executives actually reflect the will of the people and are accepted by the people. Once above that level there there are rivalries of thought they would be of a village of people from 10 miles away of being dirty foreigners certainly stands. And there are defects down in our national political life so that they must trust the foreigner meaning someone from another province or another city or another town or village is very evident and then their attempts at political organization political parties have always had a hard time. They no sooner start organizing than they get splinter groups rights on a political party

the brother knew and tried to put together to. Can allow. Became splintered but held together principally because there were civil servants who are members and one person and civil service will tend to accept another person in the civil service as a as somebody who is known and not a foreigner. So that was its main strength and also its main weakness and to be a member of the club meant that you were fired from a government job because. You are a member so that it became and its membership a little bit too self-serving of members of the public and that's worse and corruption started and jam days. The real

tragedy was that the Vietnamese were never able to get together and. Rule themselves by accepting others long enough to let them take over the executive job then and being accepted by people even though they elected people. The very last day I was in Saigon and 1968 in the summer a lot of the small town provincial politicos had wanted to to come and say goodbye to me. And a lawyer friend of mine a Vietnamese had invited them and to us was home and so I kind they lived in a very small. Home on a dirt street and so many people showed up for the US that I was to be along to this house at a meeting couldn't

take place in this house it was too small so we sat on along the curb of this dirt street and talked to each other and there were several hundred of these politicians from all over the country and the neighbors came in and brought soft drinks and food for the lot to us of course and all these different homes around and the theme of my farewell tour was for God sakes learn to to work with each other unless you unify you're going to lose your country you're gonna lose your homes and probably you'll lose your lives. But during the thing I would ask him what he believed in something and he would tell me what he believed that he was really very idealistic highly principled and several others would be looking at him as if to this and so I never know that you believed in that. That's what I believe and I said that's the trouble with you never talk to each other enough to

discover that you share a great deal in common. I got back to my house to finish packing to come back home. The phone was writing it was then present to you and they wanted to see me right away. I went over to the palace to see him and he told me that the police and his police he said would report to him that I was fomenting a revolution in the streets. But all these politicians from all over the country. And I said now it's doing so I think I'm very angry at you about it. They said why are you mad at me I said it's your job as president of the country to talk to all these people and get them to get their views and to somehow or another get on working together. I said that as a leader and I said don't let a foreigner. Don't let my American like myself do it. I'm leaving and they were saying goodbye and I will say them again. I don't think so. How about you starting to act like a president for a

change. It was quite taken aback by that and that's about why you turned around and gave me a painting as a farewell gift. But he said I thought you were starting a revolution to overthrow me. I wanted to kill this mouse so I changed his mind. Let's go back to the early period. One of the big achievements. Maybe it was your achievement too was how he managed to defeat all these different sects and groups that were trying to overthrow him in the mid 50s. What would these groups the sect troubles which ran. A little bit in 1954 late and them got to their climax on a spring of 1955 were two religious acts and one

underworld organization. Underworld social type of group them and the urban area of Saigon and so on. Religious groups were. The cow die from along the border of Cambodia about do west of Saigon. Watch how or a group where recent just below the so-called Paris be down there the Gulf of Thailand southwest of sight and then in the city itself the sector and so on who had originally organized a sort of democratic social club welfare and so on. But those leadership are taken over controlling all of the

narcotics traffic mostly opium. All of the prostitution and commercial prostitution and gambling in the city had. Obtain from Bow Tie the right to select the chief of police of out of the city area or area allegedly for a large sum of money. But they essentially felt that they should control the city and control the country and. Elect their own people to move in and take charge of running things rather than they looked upon it in the form of jam as a Puritan goody goody of a person that was really acting against their own personal self-interest.

So they secretly decided on which one was going to be the boss when they overthrew this mine and who is going to have jurisdiction over what. They started then. First of all by trying to negotiate with them why and wouldn't trust them at all so we threw them out of the office and would talk of they decided to use force to force them out. Now a lot of people were involved and what happened next. France still had armed forces in the area. And moved some more in as this discussion started getting hot. The troops that belong to the sex they all had armed forces Army or

French army and had been under control of France. Almost entirely. There were some exceptions and the main thought on the other side was if they could get rid of him physically by by blowing them up telling them they could move on and take over. They moved their troops into the city positioned mortars to shell the palace and while both the French forces and the Americans who were there were trying to defuse the situation trying to bring about a peaceful solution to. The thing and resolve some of the claims that the

forces were making what's what's included some things that happened a very unfortunate timing. France said we are giving our independence to South Vietnam which means that we can no longer pay. But they did it this critical moment. And. Zach said Well somebody's got to pay us you know we've got armed forces to help defend my country. Why don't you make me the commander of all the armed forces 1 0 7 0 0 0 take over the defense of Vietnam and. Other said make us part of the Vietnamese army and we'll take over and run. Thanks to all of which of course John said nothing done but France were trying to come up with a solution. General Aly the commander of France

Expeditionary Force and time and Helen was the U.S. ambassador General Taylor at the time. Do you admit one Taylor General Collins asked me to head up a French-American group to come up with solutions to this problem which included what do you do with demobilized troops how do you get them into gainful employment how you resolve some of the the economic needs of the areas where these people come from and turn them from being belligerent to peaceful settlement. About the time we were wrestling with coming up with answers to the problems the benzo on who were in Saigon and him own essentially shell on us

as a gangster territory if there is open fire with mortars on the palace hoping to get him a place. I talked to just before and I've gone up to to give them a message from both the general and passive Collins that we hadn't. Come up with a solution to it but we were very hopeful and we wanted to hold off for separating out a fight. And Dan was laughing at me or out on the front porch and he said you were standing about where I think the first shell is going to hit and that's going to be coming out in about 20 minutes and you better get out of here and I'm not initiating I'm receiving here. So and sure enough 20 months later the guard broke up against him and he told me on the phone they said

listen to my orders and I got generally on the phone and have him listen then he said. Listen to this. I'm telling shells and I'm giving some orders here for counter fire and without it gave orders to us artillery mortars were firing. Just a minute. So he just it was just a battle there was no. Did they actually fight it out in the street they were fighting on the streets. This took place and started in the evening and went on until almost midnight that day and the dark and the French had moved forces and to try and control the situation. But what was happening was a Vietnamese army towards French estimates at the time and by some of the Vietnamese in the cabinet even or the Vietnamese army

wouldn't fight. They say they have rushed them to. Saigon the Vietnamese army. And I remember saying on group in front of a schoolyard getting ready to move down a few blocks on. I asked them how they're feeling and they were grabbing their rifles and strong let me Aaron let's go let's go now to just the reverse of what the diplomatic corps had observed with the French headquarters where they said that they wouldn't fight and didn't want to but they were eager to get in and settle a problem. Well you did. You acting as an observer were you acting as an advisor to see him on how to handle the seconds. You know now. I was saying jam once or twice a week at his invitation and

once in a while I would go and one pastor would ask me to go in and convey something to him. He knew that I was trying working on the sex problem and trying to resolve it. He knew that I was a close friend of one of the sect leaders it was trendline who was head of the dissident group that had split away from the regular and close friend of the commander and chief of the armed forces and General Fong. I had asked them not to participate with those with a pullout and didn't do. This. This problem of the thing I had very strict orders from the US and from our Ambassador do not begin on the palace when I am fighting started and not to give any military advice on how to cope

with the enemy. But to pull out and jam was very much aware of that. I think I was one of the reasons that I was standing where the first shell was going to hit. He told me where the batteries sort of so I may have excellent intelligence from my brother. I mean it's been generally assumed that the French at that stage were trying to get rid of GM is that true. The French had a feeling about that was exacerbated by by their having lost a war and by their having to give up a colony and to pull out of the country and they felt that by having a nationalist patriot if you will. So just having the government that was supplanting them that this was sort of

rubbing salt into a very sore won't there. And they felt and said frequently that jam was arousing the people against the French and a lot of that rubbed off on me that they also said that I was the one who was trying to arouse a revolutionary spirit among the Vietnamese to be French. And this simply wasn't so at all. I had to remind the French that they have been fighting against the Vietnamese for eight years before I ever showed up on the scene and I haven't started that war or been a part of it. And this was just a natural consequence of combat. And you had some disagreements so it's been reported that you had disagreements with the American ambassador General Collins. What was what were these disagreements about.

Well the only one that was sort of I'm sorry to repeat that you had disagreements. My only disagreements with and Pastor Collins General Collins concerned the matter of the feelings of the Vietnamese problems and one of the. Times was when they first night of fighting sex against the government. Yeah along about 10 or 11 at night. Pastor asked me to come over to do his residence and see him mediately and I drove past much of the fighting then going on the fronts were breaking up armor to do whole strongpoints in the town

and blocking off Vietnamese army on us who were going on to reinforce and people who were some army of their own army units who were holed up in my police station and so on and needed reinforcements badly and the French tanks were blocking the way. I go by and pass out up to the pastor's residence and start telling him that the front two are interfering one sidedly a mess. This fight that was going on and then Pastor told me that he and General Elliot come to an agreement and the French had the forces there to to reinforce and make that the souce instead of away troops and cease fire immediately everybody to stay in a position where

they were and I felt that. He had a very. Misinformed view of what was going on but he still believed that the Vietnamese army would fight. That this essence of the truce would give the government of. The Country Jam and people a chance to sort things out and maybe come up with some viable workable peaceful solution of compromise with the other side. Actually the Army and I have a very viable thing going for them. If we had left them alone it was it was Embassador Collins cool to the idea of supporting him.

I would say so he he didn't. I'm sorry could you repeat General Collins looked upon as much as the French did. He was had a close friendship with many of the French officers and Vietnam. I had a call instead. Group two to a doctor except their viewpoint of. GM I would say that's a massive loss. Who put his head down and go against anybody's grain just to have his own wife. I had no real chance to annoy him. Usually when I met personally to talk jam would get something out of them basters tone or words that they use that led him to think that

this man doesn't know the country or the people or the situation. And at what point Jim would become the professor and educator and take time out to start telling them what the situation really was and sometimes talk for hours on end get carried away with a lecture so that he would lose interest of of a man who wanted to come to a decision quickly have to get something done so that there was a personal difference between our pastor and the prime minister as well as sharing and sympathizing with the French views. Do you think that it was.