American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Catherine Burks-Brooks, 4 of 4

[background noise] [Interviewer] We've heard that before, but talk about the fact that, you know, there were people there who weren't going to die. [Burks-Brooks] Well I think when I first realized something was going on is when I heard a rock at the window. So although I was not one the ones who looked out the window, but I was with some of the ones that looked out the window and then another rock came in and then there had been some people coming in who said a crowd was gathering out and then there were some of the ministers was on the phone talking with government officials about what was going on on the outside. And it was a little shaky, it was a little shaky, and we had a number of people in the church who were not as non-violent as we were

and some had decided that that they were not going to die there without a fight with benches and things that they were going to break up and use. I understand, I heard yes that there were some with those in there, and I understand they was told that those should be put away. [Interviewer] You can't say those, because we don't know what "those" are. [Burks-Brooks' laughter] Good try. Please say it, we're not, we don't know who has it, but that "I'd heard that people had guns inside the church," alright? Tell me that. [Burks-Brooks] Yes, well I had heard that people had guns inside the church and they had been told to put those away. Now I suppose they put them away and then there were people talking which benches they'd break up and use, if the mob

had broke in in the church. If the church had been set afire. Now we did, I can recall smelling the tear gas, something that they was using outside, burning some of the cars. And later in just moving around, upstairs to downstairs. And then later when they-- National Guard got there, we were told stay on the inside and I can remember trying to go to the door to look out and I saw them with guns pointed toward us telling us to close the door, which I thought was strange but of course we closed the door. But later

we were allowed to go out on the back and just walk around, and but this was after the crowd was gone. [Interviewer] Okay, let's stop for a sec. [Burks-Brooks] Yes, I went outside and as a matter of fact, we were just sitting on the grass outside, because-- [Interviewer] That's like blowing a whole scene. "We were just around the back." [Burks-Brooks laughing] A tense scene. So when people went to the window and looked, did you go and look, why or why not, did you go and look? [Burks-Brooks] Well I don't know, when they went to the window to look out of the window I don't recall why I didn't look out the window, maybe the rock came through there so fast and so I knew not to go and look out the window. It could have been a thing, I was not tall enough to look out the window to see the ones, the crowd

milling around out there. And of course Shuttlesworth came through that crowd and we knew how thick it was out there by that point. [Intervierwer] I want you to tell me again, it seems like it's kind of a little bit disjointed, I want you to just tell me, "a rock comes through the window," how many people are out there, could you hear them, everything, were you afraid? One more time then we'll be done. And people are making speeches and giving sermons and stuff like that, had Martin Luther King spoke already? [Burks-Brooks] Martin Luther King, yes I think Martin Luther King had spoke by the time the rocks and things started coming through the window and the time we began to smell the tear gas. And then we were

just milling around, the singing had stopped, and we were tied at that point, I don't recall exactly what time it was, but we were about fit to leave the church. [Interviewer] When did you realize that you couldn't leave the church, that now there was-- you couldn't leave, you were trapped? [Burks-Brooks] When the National Guard arrived we were told that we couldn't leave the church and to stay on the inside. Now some of us wanted to, still wanted to see and we went to the door and opened the door and then they told us to close the door and it seemed as if the guns was pointed in our direction which I thought was strange. But what really sticks out in my mind so is when all of us had the opportunity to leave the church and they put us on the back of these huge army trucks, that call I call army trucks, and I thought to me it was like we were in Vietnam,

Vietnam War was going on at that time and so that's what was running through my mind then. And of course it was just about maybe four or five o'clock before we all left the church because they had to take us out of there on those big army trucks. [Interviewer] Was the mob still there? [Burks-Brooks] No, the mob was gone. The mob was gone then and I don't know how long the mob stayed there after the National Guard got there. [Interviewer] Could you hear the mob outside or no? [Burks-Brooks] Oh the mob was quite loud, yes we could hear them, but of course we couldn't make out what they were saying but we could just hear the chanting. [Interviewer] How many people do you think were outside? [Burks-Brooks] I would say give or take four or 500. [Interviewer] Okay, let's stop for a moment. That's the next day, right?

[Burks-Brooks] Yes, this is the next day. Now I was not in that meeting but now I was there in the house and we were, we were in different meetings and I don't know if you know about that or not. [cut] [Interviewer] You decided you had to go back to take your finals. [Burks-Brooks] Okay, well in Montgomery the next day a group of us decided that we would go back to Tennessee State to take our final exam and I hadn't graduated, some had, and a car was sent for us to go back to Nashville to take our exams so I went back, took my exams, and then I led another group of Freedom Riders into Jackson, Mississippi, so in so many words I was on

two Freedom Rides. [Interviewer] What happened when you got to Jackson? [Burks-Brooks] Well, as Captain Ray arrested all of us, got to Jackson, and got off the bus, walked toward the white waiting room, and he said, "keep walking," and then we didn't keep walking, so he said, "you under arrest, disturbing the peace." And he carried us on to Hines County Jail. [Interviewer] Let's cut for a sec. [cut] --about Parchman Farm. [Burks-Brooks] Parchman Penitentiary. One thing that sticks out in my mind about Parchman Penitentiary are bugs, and these are what now I call sandflies, they were so small that they would come through the screen, they kept the light on all night. And we had to walk on them, so I suppose they took our shoes. And I can remember wrapping up in the sheet

and they would still get in the sheet with you and so I can't stand bugs right now, you won't find no bugs around me. And another thing which was kind of funny, I remember the governor's birthday they gave us some cake and put a lot of salt in it, that sticks with me. And getting out of Parchman, I recall the attorney that came to get us and he carried us to his house and his wife had made some spaghetti. I'll never forget that spaghetti, and we went to laughing so she said, "what's funny?" and we said, "we so tired of eating spaghetti," but it was good. [Interviewer] Okay, let's cut. Talk about writing a will. [Burks-Brooks] Well we

felt that it was a possibility that we were not going to make it out alive. And we decided that we would write a will. Now, most of us didn't have anything [laughs] worth willing, you know, it took a little of the edge off. It took a little of the edge off. One thing that sticks in my mind, although I was a senior, but I had my doll, and so I wanted my sister to have my doll. And my books. And one of my sisters, I wanted her to have my mouton

coat, I loved that coat. [Interviewer] Okay, let's cut. Let's get some-- [PA] This is room tone. That creaking thing, this is room tone. [silence] Thank you. [Interviewer] "I found I was expelled, even though I only had nine credits left." Okay. [Burks-Brooks] When I got back to Nashville I found out that I had been expelled. And I only had nine hours to do before graduating and so I knew I had to graduate. If I wanted to live because my father might not understood that part of it, and Central State had accepted us but we went to

court and won our case, never forget, Attorney Luby, won our case and we got back into Tennessee State and I graduated. [Interviewer] Let me ask one more time, just say the same thing, but say why you were expelled. "I got back I was expelled, I only had nine credits, because--" [Burks-Brooks] When I got back to Tennessee State, found out that I had been expelled because I had been arrested in Jackson, Mississippi for breach of the peace. We went to court and won our case and I went back to Tennessee State and graduated.