American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Catherine Burks-Brooks, 3 of 4

[Burks-Brooks] On our way back to Birmingham we heard on the radio that Bull Connor had put us out and that we were on our way back to Nashville and so of course we just laughed about it, we thought it was funny but you know we was trying to disguise ourselves so wouldn't anybody know if they were still looking out for us or something so we would never all of us to sit up at the same time and I think I was leaning on Leo like we were boyfriend and girlfriend. And then at one point we heard that, "no they're not on their way back to Nashville, they're on their way back to Birmingham," and then we said, "oh, my soul," so a little bit of fear began to set in then, because we felt that we may be stopped on the road. And I was from Birmingham and Bill Harbour, and so Bill knew a few backroads to take and so did I and so we got off of the main roads and took some backroads back into Birmingham. [Interviewer] Okay, let's cut for a second. When you're-- you're back in the station now in Birmingham, talk a little bit more about that for me, it must have been

a great feeling. You had been put out on the road, you're supposed to be in Nashville now but you're back, and not only are you back, but there are two or three times as many of you as when you left. So how did that feel? [Burks-Brooks] Well when we walked into the bus station and to see all of the ones that had joined us, the other students from around the, around the country, not that it was that many at that time, we were thrilled but we were a little sad because [Selene?] was no longer with us. That was the other white girl that had left Nashville with us. Now Bull had called her father, and I suppose he was, lived in New York, or he was in New York, and her father told him to hold her and he would come to Birmingham to pick her up, which he did, so she was not with us anymore, but two other white girls from Nashville had joined us. [Interviewer] I want you to tell that other story, start over, but I don't

want you to go off on the Selene-- we got that, but maybe you-- tell me again but don't go off there, just how did it feel when you walk in to the station, and Bull Connor, the man had kind of sent you off, you guys were supposed to be gone, and now here you walk into the station and there's more of you than there were when you left, how did that feel? [Burks-Brooks] Well when we walked into the station and to see the other students that had joined us from around the south and maybe we had some from the north at that time, we felt good, we felt that we had accomplished a little bit, that we had showed Bull and other city officials that we were not going to be stopped. Now, and I know they were

surprised because we were not supposed to come back. That fear was supposed to have sent us on. And so just for us walking around in there, just moving around and going in and out of the colored part of the bus station and then going into the white part of the station, going into the white bathroom, and we were going to the white bathroom I suppose every ten minutes, just to show other people that you could go into this bathroom, and it was a thrill. But as the night moved on I think we were in there something like eighteen hours and so we began to get a little tired there. [Interviewer] But you didn't have to go to the bathroom, at least. [Burks-Brooks laughs] So did you have any idea what was going on-- why didn't they arrest you, I mean before they were beating you all up for that kind of stuff,

they were arresting you, and now that you go back and it seems like you have the free reign of the station, why didn't they arrest you? [Burks-Brooks] Well I can guess, I can guess why they didn't take us back to jail. Was at that time we had students from Nashville, from our group in Nashville, that had joined us and we had other students in Nashville waiting. And I'm quite sure we had students out of New Orleans and also out of Atlanta waiting and they probably knew that too and it was not going to do them any good to just put us in jail because they saw that we were not afraid of going to jail and that we were not afraid of them putting us out on the state line, and we made our way back. Now, we didn't get back by high noon, but we made our way back, it might have been by three or four

o'clock. [Interviewer] So you're a student, how old were you at that point? [Burks-Brooks] I'm 21, I think. [Interviewer] So you didn't know all the stuff that was going on behind the scenes with the president and vice-president, I mean not the vice-president, I mean the attorney general, you're just there waiting. So did you know what was going on behind the scenes? [Burks-Brooks] No we didn't know all of what was going on behind the scenes but we did know that there had to be some negotiation going on. But we didn't know who all was involved and as a matter of fact that we heard later and I don't know if this is true or not and I've always been trying to find out, that Bobby Kennedy had said that if they didn't find us or the driver that they was going to send a serviceman, a

black man in the service to drive the bus, they was going to fly him in here on a bomber, and so of course we were kind of thrilled to hear that. But of course this was later, but what was all going on behind the scenes and with all the negotiations, we didn't know at that time. [Interviewer] All you knew was what? [Burks-Brooks] All we knew at that time is that we were going to stay there. We were going to stay there until we get a driver. We was going to wear them out. [cut] [Burks-Brooks laughs] Nah, it won't be like that, it won't-- I suppose you all will be going by the bus station, right? [Interviewer] Yeah, we'll probably, Lorenzo and I will go, we'll let all the people who do the hard work go to the hotel. [Burks-Brooks] Yeah

because they-- They put this mirror up there-- When we got on the bus, we had all the protection, at least we had more protection than we thought we would have. We had helicopters, we had police was on the side, and we had policemens in the front of the bus and in the back of the bus. So we felt quite safe and we had heard, and I don't know where we had heard this from, that they had emptied a little town because there were people in that town that was going to blow up the bus. And so when we saw all the protection that we had and we got relaxed then, we sang a few freedom songs, and as a matter of fact, I dozed off. That's right, felt safe. [Interviewer] Just wanted to-- So then what

happens when you, as you hit the Montgomery city line? [Burks-Brooks] I'll never forget this. I was looking out the window and I could see the policemens taking off in different directions and so with the helicopter and we were thinking that some Montgomery policemans was going to come in then. But then we didn't see no one. And when we rolled into the bus station everything seemed to be quiet. Seemed to be quiet and relaxed, we looked around and didn't hardly see many people, just a few milling around, and then seemed as if in about five to ten minutes all hell was breaking loose. The mob came, looked like from out of nowhere and they started on the newspaper men

first, the photographers and cameramen, and I could see them being beaten. And one thing that I could almost see now that sticks with me is the white women and the way they were screaming and some of them had babies in their arm, screaming, "kill them niggers, kill them niggers." Now we had sent Bob E. down, this is one of the students from Nashville to have some cabs waiting for us when we got there. So we went out to look for our cab and we did find one and the girls, the fellas insisted that the girls get in the cab. [Interviewer] Let me cut for a moment. There's this strange thing, I want you to tell me again, so the bus rolls in, and put everybody where they are,

bus rolls in, stops at the station, what happens? [Burks-Brooks] The bus rolls in and we stop at the station and we don't see any policemen and we don't see this huge mob. You know, a few people milling around and then there were newspapermen on the bus with us and then there was some already there standing around and taking pictures as the bus drives in and so they started beating them first. Now we were getting off the bus too, and of course I'm assuming they're going to beat them first-- [Interviewer] Let me stop you there, this is great but I want you to-- You're assuming now that I know about the mob, that the buss rolls in. [Burks-Brooks] So the bus rolls in. We don't see the policemen, we don't see a mob at this time, just people milling around, white people, and the cameramen,

newspapermen, reporters, begin to get off of the bus and seem as if people then just start coming up from everywhere all of a sudden after about five or ten minutes and what really sticks with me were the women, the number of women that was out there and they was screaming "kill them niggers," and they had babies in their arm. Now we get off the bus, of course looking for a cab, and none of the girls were approached. We find the cab, Lafayette helps us to get in, then the white girls tried to get in the cab, and the mob is thick now. And the cab driver said, "no he can't," he said, "no, I can't carry those white girls." He was afraid, it was against the law. I get out the cab then because I said, "if you can't carry them, we're not going." Lafayette pleads with me to get

back in the cab, that they going to get them another cab, so I said, "alright," and I got back in the cab. Now I look through the window at this time and I can see John Lewis and Jim Zwerg being beaten. And I can see blood coming down Lewis' face and also Zwerg's face and I can also see Bob E. on the ground and the cab driver is afraid. And I told him that-- he's afraid to drive us, so I told him to get out, that I'll drive. And but then I looked down and it was a stick shift, and I couldn't drive a stick shift so I pleaded with him to stay and just take us to a black community and let us out. And so he said, "alright," and then we saw this mob coming down the street and he said "that's a one-way street and he can't go down there," said "man, you go down this one-way streets or something happening to

this car, the SCLC going to pay for this car." So then he drives us unto a little black community and we, as soon as we get into this black community and he drives up to this house and this black lady standing on the porch and we jumps out and run right in her door. And then I called Reverend Shuttlesworth. [Interviewer] This a black driver? [Burks-Brooks] Mm-hmm. Don't know what happened to him. Yes, I understand the-- with the mob, that they were quite organized and that they had ascertained at the time to do what they was going to do to us before the policemen would step in and that's why they went after the photographers first. Now I don't know if they went after the local

photographers, which I don't believe they did, I believe there are more pictures somewhere. [Interviewer] So they went after the photographers-- you think that they had an arrangement, that they could come after you before the police? [Burks-Brooks] Yes. Some of them throughout the years have stated that. [Interviewer] So at this point when you're on the bus and you see that mob come out of nowhere and you see those women yelling "get those niggers," and they have clubs and stuff like that and they're beating people, at that point you're scared. [Burks-Brooks] At that point yes I knew what we must do at that point is to get out of there and but then I felt good when Bernard said that he would get a cab for those white girls which that was, they had a rough time. But then also look through, I looked through the side and the back window and I could see some of the fellows, all of them didn't stand to take the beating, I could see some of them jumping over

what I thought was a cliff but it was way that that place was made, it was a wall up there and some of them jumped over that wall and some ran into the post office, I understand that that was near and some just ran down the street. [Interviewer] I wanted to just understand that this is a black cab driver, so you can say, "Bernard grabbed a black cab driver," whatever. Just let me know that again. [Burks-Brooks] When we got our cab, this was a black cab, at that time black cabs was not allowed to drive white people and white cabs was not allowed to drive black people. So this was a black cab driver. And he was afraid to drive the white girls. [Interviewer] So even in that circumstance-- [Burks-Brooks] In that circumstance he had to think about his life. [Interviewer] Let me start again, because I talked over you, but even in that

circumstance when these white girls might get killed, he still couldn't, the thing was so rough and so rigid that he can't even take these white girls. [Burks-Brooks] No. He can't take them, it's that feat and see one thing you have to remember now, this is Montgomery, Alabama. This is this is the heart of the Confederacy. This is where the first Confederate White House was located. So he had that fear. [Interviewer] Where did you regroup, where did you get back together? [Burks-Brooks] When we got into this lady's house, asked her if we could use her phone and I called Reverend Shuttlesworth here in Birmingham, Alabama and told him where we were located and what had happened and so he told us to stay there, that they would send someone over to get us and he told us that

some was at the church and some had gone to the hospital and that we should stay there and they would send someone to pick us up. And later we were picked up and I think from there I don't know if we were carried to someone's home or if we were carried to the church. [Interviewer] When did you learn that there would be this big-- was that the rally the next day in the church, did you go to that? [Burks-Brooks] Yes. [Interviewer] You went to that but you never, you didn't go on to Jackson, right, you went to the rally-- [Burks-Brooks] Yes. [Interviewer] The rally was the next day? [Burks-Brooks] The rally I think was that night. I don't think it was the next day, I think the rally was that night. [Interviewer] It doesn't matter, because I know Martin Luther King comes, so it might have taken him a day to get there because he wasn't supposed to be there. [Burks-Brooks] No, but see one thing you have to remember, this is going on early up in the day.

[Interviewer] Okay, so when did you, you learned that there was going to be this big rally. Why? Why was there going to be now this big church meeting? [Burks-Brooks] Well I'm assuming that it was gonna be this big church meeting because of the ride, that what had happened to us at the bus station. And with the people being beaten and now some of us was in the hospital at that time. And the city itself was just up in arms. [Interviewer] And what was the idea of this rally? What-- [Burks-Brooks] To let the people know what was going on and to-- we always had mass meetings and to me it was similar to a mass meeting. And this the way we were informed and so that was nothing out of the ordinary. [Interviewer] What was a mass meeting? That's something that's been forgotten in time, what was--

[Burks-Brooks] A mass meeting was a mass of blacks getting together to learn what was going on and what our next move should be. So that's what we called a mass meeting, and to keep us together and to keep us motivated. [Interviewer] Hold on one sec. [background noise] Okay. What J.T. is asking is that when I finish asking you a question for you to pause for two seconds before you talk. [Burks-Brooks] Okay. [Interviewer] We try to start cutting it and we hear my voice a little bit. I wasn't there, it's about you. So let's go. [Burks-Brooks] Okay, a mass meeting, let me see.

Mass meeting was something like church. It's like church on a Sunday although it was usually on Monday here in Birmingham and the purpose of the mass meeting was to get together and determine what we was going to do and of course to raise money and to keep our spirits up and to, well, to inform, to inform the mass of the people what was going on and what we needed to do about it. And and volunteer your service or whatever you could do. [Interviewer] Let me ask you again, because I want you to put it in context of the movement, because when you're talking, I don't know that you're not talking about something that happens as part of church in the Christian way, this was part of a movement, right? [Burks-Brooks] Yeah, but now

the movement was in the Christian way. [Interviewer] But the mass movement was-- okay, let's stop for a second. [Burks-Brooks] And some even shouted in the back and so and then some was there to get the spirit, to get the feeling, and that's all the spirit is, a feeling to keep you moving, to keep you hyped up, because if not, if we hadn't had that to keep us hyped up throughout the period going through the wilderness of North America, it would have been a mess, a triple mess. So you will go and get them spirits moved and for those that didn't go and get them on a Sunday and then they could get them get it that Monday, and you was going to always have maybe two or three preachers there, that was going to-- maybe one of them was supposed to preach, but the other was going to steal them a preacher like.

[Interviewer] But I was trying to get-- [Burks-Brooks] Well yes, it was, yes, to motivate people for change but then you've got to admit if you've attended some church services in the south that that was, the church was used quite a bit for that too. That was the thing with your new president and his church. [cut] --a different way, but-- probably end up back at the same-- it was to inform you and to motivate you. [Interviewer] But would you say-- but you couldn't say the exact same thing, you would be stretching the point I think if you said-- [cut] [Burks-Brooks] --the way our church services have never been the way your regular Europeans

would have their church service. [Interviewer] I understand. I guess what I'm trying to get at is when you-- when they're walking around a community on whatever day that was after the beatings and they're saying, "we're going to have a mass meeting," what people knew what this was going to be, when Martin Luther King flies in, everybody knows what's going to happen there, that it's not going to be, the talk is not just going to be about Jesus. It's going to be about some other things and that's what, everybody knew that, right? That's all I'm trying to get at, that there's going to be something going on there in this church and everybody that goes there knows what they're going there for to hear. [Burks-Brooks] Okay. After our mass meetings we would know that we were going

in to find out what had happened in the movement and what we were going to do. What was our next move. And who was going to participate and who needed to participate. [Interviewer] So what happened at, what do you remember about that meeting, what what stands out to you about that night? [Burks-Brooks] Well the first thing that stands out is that we-- [Interviewer] So when did you first realize that something was happening outside the church that night? [Burks-Brooks] Hmm. I suppose when I first realized that something was happening, I think when I heard a rock hit the window

and I don't know how long, of course, how long it had been going on before that. When I heard the rock hit the window and some of us went to look out the window and got some more rocks. And so then that's when a little fear came, just a little bit, what's about to go down. Mm-hmm. [Interviewer] Let's keep our energy up here, we're almost done. You got a lot of energy so start it out with the line, we want it to seem like it's the same person. [Burks-Brooks] Alright. [PA] Phones are still off? I just heard two beeps.