War and Peace in the Nuclear Age; Interview with Susan Dutson, 1987

So just one my name is Susan back with that and I'm the publisher of the Miller County Chronicle progress and we're located in Delta that we serve Millard County. How did you first hear. Well we were in the midst of another bomb situation with a power plant. And so it it kind of came in kind of like a surprise. I mean we we were focusing our attention on other things. And a meeting was scheduled and some people came in that were going to the meeting and came and alerted us. This is we're going to. See the back to the first. OK. My name is Susan Beck and I am the publisher of the Millard County Chronicle progress located in Delta Utah. And we serve all of Millard County. How did you first hear about them.

Well we were in the midst of a power plant coming and so most of our attention was focused there. And the meeting that was scheduled was kind of I don't know quietly but some people came in that had heard about the meeting and alerted us and so we started you know we went to the meetings. It was just kind of a year for us apparently but I don't remember that they ever sent us a notice on it. They may have but they may have just scheduled the meeting and allowed it you know alerted the public officials and that it would help us. OK. So tell us about it. Well they came in. It's been a long time but they came in and were kind of explaining what they were going to do and it was so wonderful and so exciting and so forth and people who had been aware of meetings they had in other places that were here were immediately voicing opposition and sow seeds of doubt were planted right away which was you know helpful.

Know they didn't get the Air Force didn't get a real toehold before we really knew what was going on. And how'd you find out. Well by going to the meetings and then we were linked up with people from other areas who had been studying it for quite some time and we hear you. If you could just say you talk about the Air Force what they presented to us as well we had lots of meetings so they kind of they kind of run together I don't I don't remember if that first meeting was when the the TV cameras you know. From up around the Wasatch Front had been alerted so they were down because I remember that meeting fairly distinctly because General Hecker and I kind of got into it after the meeting and the cameras they were so close but they didn't pick up they didn't do the sound they just did the pictures. And so I would have friends call me

from other areas that had seen it and they could tell by the expressions on the face what was going on. What were you saying. I don't really remember. There was so much that went on at that time. I don't know because I didn't I didn't really have my temper up at that time I was probably being kindly mean at that time. What made you get your temper. Well I think because we got lied to so much things just nothing would fit. You know they would tell us what their force would tell us one thing and then if you studied into it it was entirely the opposite. And the access to the desert was one of the biggest things that they never could get their story straight on. And if if you if you didn't have any problem with missiles you still wouldn't want them dead desert being used. It is one of the last frontiers in the continental United States where mining activity is going on. We have the only free world deposit of beryllium out here. There

was uranium exploration going on at that time because we do have some uranium and things change and I was the needs of the country right now. Gold other precious minerals calcium carbonate potash. That type of thing is getting very very active and the thoughts of closing off an area that provides such vital material you know to keep the United States alive and strong and not have to depend on third world countries was that was a real frightening thing is that all these girls like me. That like General hacker you know as a person he was friendly and personable. But. I think where he got into trouble was he came in and said things that inferred. Things that happened that had not happened such as he described his meeting with

the General Authorities of the LDS Church and how warm they had received him and et cetera et cetera making it sound like the Mormon Church had said yes we endorse your project will help you to the ends of the earth when actually that had not happened. And he he did this quite a bit. I mean he was quite a salesman. That was what he was sent to do. But it all caught up with him. He was that was quite terrible. So the Air Force overhead it very much could be yes. Yeah they've had a lot of airplanes coming. I'm going to ask. You this sorry. Is this do you wanna wait till the drains go. Every time an airplane goes. Church. Yes most people. OK. Because if you could tell us again Gerald Hagar's like sometimes when I make these great speeches in that room again I can't remember.

I rather enjoyed general Hakkar on a personal basis he was a very friendly personable man. But I think when he got into trouble with his salesmanship was TMX was he had a tendency to word things in a way that inferred things that were not fact. And it caught up with him very quickly. The one thing that I remember that distinctly got him in trouble was he described his meeting with General Authorities of the Mormon church and said how gracious they had been and how kind and he insinuated that they had totally embraced the project and given their stamp of approval which was not the case and that sort of gave him his demise as far as being the spokesperson out here is that over there. Yes. But you guys

are doing this. Right. They cry and they are that's why we didn't throw them in there. Well just let them read. We'll see what happens. So we're going to pick up the story of my blessings and you be right.

Well General hackers inference that the LDS Church. Mormon Church had endorsed it not only I did not feel it was right but most people didn't because that's not Mormon policy. That is just not the way they operate to to either endorse or unless they feel very strongly they don't you know they just they don't take a stand. Do you feel that it was just ludicrous. Anybody that knows the desert knew it was just ludicrous for just various various reasons. The desert. I just can't imagine what kind of structures that they would put it would stabilize. I mean we have flash floods land that gets wet gets buggy just a multitude of things that would make construction just more monumental than they were claiming which was pretty monumental. And the desert is multi-purpose use

cattlemen grace out there that does their livelihood. Sheepmen grays out there that's their livelihood. The mining people such a frontier for mining it's new things are discovered all the time or things that we already know are out there and then the demand comes in to the point where it's worthwhile to go out in and utilize it. Plus it's recreation area the house range is one of the finest fossil beds in the world. It's just does too many constructive uses for the desert as opposed to a destructive use of making it inaccessible and a target will feel the air. Here. There are. They feel the West is traditionally large pieces of the land is federal law and it's a real sore point with the West because this doesn't happen in the east which the government seems to feel they have the right to come and tell you what you can do with your land.

And as they own about 67 percent I believe of Utah you know should they have wanted to just say this is going to be our land. It probably would have been possible if if the citizenry hadn't been really united to oppose it. Why do you think most people. I think everybody had their own reasons. Some people just totally opposed to what proliferating nucular arms which is a position I went into later somewhere. They don't want their livelihood taken away. The scary part of not being able to get on that desert was just terrifying to people even though the Air Force repeatedly said Oh there will be you'll be out there all the time you know. No big deal. You know you can come and go like you always have. And all the time they were saying that I just happened to be sitting next to a man on an airplane who told me his company had been asked to give them a bid on video surveillance for the entire system on the desert.

Well the desert is very Peroni. It is a place where you go to get away from civilization. The thoughts of being out there picnicking with your family with a video camera trained on you was just just bizarre. And you have the feeling that you wouldn't be anywhere around here right. Right. And they also tried to sneak some legislation through. That said that the military would have this ultimate power that they could stop search detain do anything they wanted to do with any citizen that they felt they felt was threatening or was just there and they didn't want them there. What would it have meant as much as the largest public works project. Well having had the experience of the intermountain power project here the

construction phase of these things is just it's hard to describe. And this is traditionally an agricultural community. We'd like being here because it's quiet it's relatively safe. Anything that we want that we don't have is within 100 150 miles. But you can have a quality of life that there's no there's no way you can buy it to just have a quality of life. So the construction phase if that hadn't wiped out the community entirely having a military installation would have finished it off. What do you think the Air Force. I think they got out a roadmap and said there's at least roads out there and there's less population and they probably won't care. You know they're very conservative. They always go along with the government and so on. Made sense to me. I don't have any idea why they chose it except that we are so sparsely populated and you know the phone was very out of character.

That's right. Yes Mormons Mormons are very noted for supporting the government whatever they want to do. There will be the first ones that will take up arms if you know if that's required. They all they feel that military services are part of their life. They're fairly hawkish because they're conservative and to oppose it was really kind of out of character for for Utah which I think says a lot for how ludicrous the project was. Were you one of those people before this. Well probably not because the old war movies of World War II were great but I was you know to I had to look too much at the Vietnam War. I lost too many friends and I saw the results of it. And though at that particular time it wasn't my style to jump in and oppose something like

that. I always questioned in my mind why are we taking the finest you know to be butchered mentally and physically maimed. What purpose are we serving. You know so I had some problems with that. And then the military's even though their policies have changed a lot over the years at at the time that I pay I guess a lot of attention to the military. It was a dumping grounds for people who do you want to go to jail or do you want to go out in the service. And I know now that they have you know they have UPS up their standards considerably. But you think of a missile system that is untried untested. So you know so fantastic in its scheme you know the Rube Goldberg. And then you're gonna put it in the hands of maybe not our finest You know that just kept running through my mind. Like I say the military has up their standards since then but and then

at one time I got into a discussion with Senator Hatch and I said I said I think we're going entirely in the wrong way. You have tanks that don't run. They leak. You have those airplanes that the wings fall off. So what good does it do to have a big you know missile system if you do not have the surrounding things to tend it. And he said well we're going more toward that type of warfare and that just scared me to death because if you've got a face to face somebody to kill him you may figure out a little bit more civilized way to work out your differences. But if you can push the button and just blow people you don't even know or care about off the face of the earth that gets real scary because it gets too easy. So scary for us here. I don't know if I had enough sense to be scared at that time. I mean scared in the scared sense I think I was more angry that we were so insignificant.

And even if we were insignificant the prevailing winds would take radiation right across the rest of the United States. But I don't remember being particularly scared. I don't think that was my emotion. You got to feel for your words. Yeah we did. We really did. And I thought they also thought we were stupid. People always get the idea that if you want to live in a small town you can't make it in big time. They don't understand that we have discovered quality of life and we will sacrifice a lot of things for quality of life. Yeah I think Utah has. We have. We're still in the midst of all the problems caused by the open air testing and under the Freedom of Information Act people have come up with the documents that show that they would watch the winds. And when it was blowing up over St. George and Cedar City and up toward

this way they would say go ahead with the tester's least population there. So there are still people trying to get that sorted out. Dying of cancer and so on. We have a big big Hill Air Force Base which because it it is what it is makes it a target if you want to consider that then you have to Twiller Ordinance Depot with the chemical weapons and you have Dugway. So the military has used this for ugly things for a lot of you know for a long time and then as soon as they come up with nuclear waste they don't know what to do with. They immediately think Utah doesn't matter that we have so many national parks and things like that and we have positive things to offer the country that if you tie them up with negative things they're lost forever. I was driving with one fence. We were often referred to as the lunatic fringe and that that amused me because I had never

seen any project any anything that had united more factions of the population. And yes there were some that I guess you'd call a lunatic fringe but there were people who were very very dedicated anti-missile. We do not need to proliferate. There were farmers and ranchers and mining people and environmentalists and housewives and professional people. It it touched every segment of the population. And if you can refer to every segment of the population as lunatic fringe I guess we were. So what you do for us. We tend to do to start to do our protesting methods that we

used were were very varied we would attend meetings and we did flyers. We did mailings we did posters we called people. We made ourselves available for any media or raw speaking engagements anything you know. Because when you're so small and what the nation considers insignificant you have to be fairly loud to get people's attention. And we tried to see this would have affected everyone in the United States either by money or by the way on the track. The missile system would have affected everyone in the United States and one of the things that we tried to do was bring it home to everyone. And we knew when cartoons started appearing and make excuse in magazines like The New Yorker that says I don't

care where they put it as long as they don't put it in the subway. Then we knew you know people were starting to think about it. Economically it would put the country on its knees. It wouldn't matter what kind of a missile system we had because it would have tied up so many natural resources construction projects and they the figures that they put out on it of course were probably about a fifth of what it really would have cost had they ever completed it. That was another scary thing. They the military has started many projects and then abandoned them later on leaving areas just in worse shape than they were to begin with because they have all this garbage around and they've ruined the aesthetics of the of the area. So there was a lot of things to take into consideration but the expense alone what it would have done to the taxpayer was just phenomenal. Did you use that paper very much. I'm very small have very small circulation but I figured the readers

that I was reaching I was going to do the best I could to keep them informed on what was going on. Well we had something in about every week but of course there was something going on about every week. And if other publications had something fairly good we would get permission and reprint it and we would cover the meetings and just keep it constantly out and and constantly describing the different factions of population that would affect anyone who came to visit who really helped people. I don't really understand made the military system or their side effects are. They sent quite a few people here and in a way it got to be amusing after a while the potency of the people they were sending to Delta. It was I mean when William Perry came in flew in and brought his wife in I can't remember there was a man named Seiberg with a man at

Goffe and they were pretty potent people pretty high up in the whole project and they come to Delta to meet with a few public officials. They tried to sneak into town but by that time there was always someone who would let me know when they were coming. So they sent some pretty high powered people on. Have they come in. Well sometime depende Some didn't make it like the time that Antonio Chase was supposed to come down to one of the meetings and she was in a helicopter and they got as far as 12 and got lost. So she had the helicopter pilot put her down there and she hitched a ride with a trucker and went back to Salt Lake so he never made the meeting. This was a little scary. The undersecretary of the Air Force cannot find a little place to have a meeting. You know that was that was rather interesting. Why there if the military can't find Delta. How are they going to find their target if we ever get into anything.

Now you at one point the Air Force took you on an engine you Francis her operations people there they the Air Force conducted several punch and cookie tours. I wasn't a very nice person so I didn't get invited to a lot of times. But at one time they did take us to the Air Force Base in Omaha and they had all these meetings scheduled up that we were set through. And then they'd line us and Dynas and I thought it was interesting that immediately they said the speaker will speak. Do not interrupt the speaker and then you may ask questions after it's all over with. And I thought why can't you ask questions as they go along. You know have they got them or robot that they just. If we make them lose their place or what's the problem here you know. But that was the way it was always set up as they must give their speech. And then we could ask questions afterwards.

All I saw was you know as the base. I thought it was very shabby and the time that I went to to be on the Donahue show and I had a conversation with McCarthy I think his name was I told him that I felt bad that the military had gotten so shabby and that if they wanted to do some lobbying and some efforts to get some money put into upgrading their bases and that sort of thing I would help some but that I felt when the bases looked so shabby that maybe looks aren't everything. But I mean they were just they just really looked shabby. I don't expect it to be plush. Military is not but cracks in the wall and things like that that I would fight him on the missile. But I would help him if it was to get better quarters for the troops. People feel that they were hard hit here and you told. You Does that gives it any thought. We are a target. We

have always been a target. Having the mixed missile here would have just been an increased target. It would have been the ultimate target but I guess under mutual assured destruction that's the whole plan. You know we target you and you target us and neither one of us are going to hit each other because we're targeting each other which doesn't make sense to me because accidents do happen. And I just don't think civilizations come along very far. That's the best you can do. What did you ever feel like you wanted. Well I think he was just a pawn like I think the Air Force. President Carter I think was just upon the same as the air force was upon. I think it always felt very clear to me that defense contractors think these things up and then they sell them to the military. And so when people would say if if this is what the military wants then we should

let them have it. I just never felt it was what the military wanted. I just felt it was something that a defense contractor thought up for them. Did you. Get. It. OK. You were saying we're going to do that. Remind me what I said. I asked you what you would the mindset of Carter. OK basically I always felt that President Carter and. I always felt that President Carter and the Air Force were pawns in this whole fiasco. It seemed very clear that defense contractors think these things out to make money and then they sell them to the military so I could never buy the statement that if the military wants and needs this we should support it because I never and I often got the

feeling talking to some of the Air Force people that they didn't buy it either. They were just doing what they were told to do. I just didn't feel a sincerity. We need this we have to have it. So I don't really think that as far as military strategy goes it had. It was playing any part. It was just a monumental money project that brought in having the system this close to us. And please answer me. So you know what I mean you want me to start having having a system like that this close to us would have brought jobs and that and that was not a primary concern here because we already had the power project coming in and we knew we were going to have jobs but sometimes people forget that if you trade quality of life for standard of living you don't

have anything in the end. And one of the beautiful things about a rural area is you don't have a lot of rules because everybody's neighbors everybody's friends you expect you respect rights pretty much. And as soon as you start getting your population increasing there has to be a lot of rules. So progress sometimes means loss of freedom and the jobs in that that it would have brought in. It wouldn't have employed that many of the locals. You know it would not have made it a lot of difference for people living here. It would have just transported more people than. You or any of the public meetings. Well probably one of the events that stands out in my mind the most was the Bill Moyer event that they held at the salt palace and all of our fringe lunatics the ranchers the farmers the businessmen the housewives

got together for a little rally in the courtyard and supposedly the FBI or someone was over in the Howard Johnson filming all of us because we were so dangerous to the country. And then the debate was just great. It really was great. And I sometimes also felt that when the Air Force or whoever they send in to speak for it came in they expected us to be so stupid we'd swallow about anything. And Antonio Chaiya us was just notorious for making ridiculous statements she threw out some big figures in that debate about how much land it takes to sustain so many hit a sheep and so on and so forth just had sheepmen rolling on the floor. I mean you got to do your homework if you're going to come on to somebody's home ground and try to tell them how things are and the more your debate was very good. And of course Cecil Garland who was so wonderful through all this very bright very articulate and a wonderful sense of humor.

He just brought the house down with his suggestions on the basic most else is that really people as I did I say people don't know. Yeah they don't know. Did I tell you that. Yeah. Well they always were patronizing. Definitely. Yes. They talked to us like children because we live out here we prefer this kind of a lifestyle that means we're not too bright which is not true at all. Memory of that was very similar.

I only saw them in person that one time. William Perry and his wife and Seiberg and Al Gore flew in. Seems to me there was a political person with him at that time but I don't remember who. And they wanted to meet just with the mayors and the county commissioners and so on. And I don't know how they thought they were going to accomplish by that I would think that if if they wanted to really impress the citizenry they would have wanted a bigger meeting. I don't know. They were very nice people but you could tell that they felt they'd made a mistake wasting their time coming out because they just didn't get that warm of a reception. I mean everyone was cordial but nobody said Yeah. It's great you came out here we'll jump on your bandwagon nobody did that. What was the reaction to all of this deployment is the reaction to the map was just horrific horror. Everybody was horrified. The great basin is so unique.

One of the few friends here is left in some sort of natural state and so fragile it has so many wonderful things about it and the thoughts of tying that up with a missile system as well as its multiple use land in both Utah and Nevada. It was just horrifying the thought of using something so destructive that would it would cut off anything that's productive. Even though they guarantee this continued. Oh you'll have access. Oh nobody will stop you. And then they get into these heavy debates about how the Russians could put monitoring devices on sheep collars and the sheep would get too close to the fence and the Russians would all know what we were doing. It was just craziness. And now the Air Force that we really need is this is for national security that are to be modernized. We were the same ones we had since early 60s. The Russians all generations are very younger. And we really need that system.

So I like I said never I always felt that the Air Force felt real sincere about this. They kept talking about the three legs that nothing could operate without the three legs you can use the argument for two legs for four legs for five legs. It made no sense. They kept saying the Strategic Air Command takes care of the air we got the Tridents for the sea. Now we've got to have a land basing mode not just the fact that the others have it doesn't mean the Air Force had to have something different. And why did the Air Force need that if they had the Strategic Air Command. Why wasn't the army complaining that they didn't have their piece of the air. I mean it was that was just the end then kind of an argument and everyone knows knows the missiles are getting old but they play these games and they leave them sitting there till they just fall apart like the ones dead in Arkansas that they dropped a ranch on. So what difference does it make what your system is if you're not trained in what you got. You don't miss me.

Donahue Yeah yeah. What did you say. What do you want to say. I was invited to be on that small segment of the Donahue show. I think it's on another channel or something I'm not home at the time to catch these things. But it was a result of an article done in the Chicago Tribune and I didn't really know exactly what they wanted. And Donahue started the show by saying to the Air Force now explain this button button theory that you've come up with for these missiles which kind of put me at ease because I felt that the show was not taking the missile system seriously as Air Force. And they went through a really nice rundown about how the system would work and they ask what it would mean to this area and what we thought about it. And then they took all of that and edited it down to just a few minutes so there was really not a lot that ever got put out as a result of that.

How would you feel that he ever came back in a few years and said this was using much less land area. Probably early on in the opposition to the mix things have been scaled down and more reasonable I might have not been so much opposed but as the thing drag on and the fight drag on and you became a little bit more aware of what the whole new kid or system means. I would oppose any missile anywhere at any time. You mean you became our entire nuclear deterrent force. The fact that seven strategically placed bombs according to Dr. Helen Keller Caldicott who I have great respect for would totally wipe out the planet. And right now we have an excess of 6000. I would oppose any more missiles anywhere any time because I think we are already in a position of totally destroying the planet Earth. And I don't think we need to build any more to assure it.

We see very and that there is a need for more missiles. That's a part of the is that there is a real big disadvantage. America has Soviet Union people don't protest. This air force is really frustrated because they tried this and they have to deal with this for the Soviet Union. It's going to get way ahead of us. They're building more missiles more warheads. Do you feel that you know is there any sense of maybe we should be you know putting American. Yes I don't really worry about America being in an inferior position to the Soviets. And the fact that somebody is Bhuvan around that the American public has the right to protest as opposed to the Russians. They can move to Russia if they like that system better. You know that's why we're here. That's why that systems in place and a very wise man that lives here that has been in political life

told me voters get what they deserve. So if we want to protest things then that's not the right way to go. We get what we deserve. But that's the great American way. That's why that's what the whole missile system is to preserve supposedly. So I don't I don't care about their grouping around about that we have the ability to protest and it makes life so tough. The only person that is making life tough on us defense contractor and that is the least effective way to spend the tax dollar you get less return. Remember that we have to do it every day. No one protested the Soviet Union. And they're building more faster. And you know the thing is you know again the national security interest to let this possibly get I don't worry about the Soviets getting ahead of us. I really believe that Soviets are fairly well levelheaded. If we have someone to fear it is not the Russians it is other countries that are not so level headed.

And the fact that we can protest in the United States is wonderful. That's what democracy is all about. And if people don't like the idea of protesting missile systems and they can move to Russia and build their missile systems because they won't get any protests. The whole idea of making the United States strong is to preserve our rights and our freedoms which we are rapidly losing as it is. But the right to protest and have a voice in your government is what the United States is all about is why we're fighting this for two years being involved in something like that. AirMax protest for two years was just devastating. It just wiped you out. You eat ate slept and and breathe the protest. I don't know how we functioned here in the business at that time because it was chaotic. There was newspaper reporters and foreign. Der Spiegel came in. Australian TV came an ABC Nightline came in. It was nothing for

the door to open and in came a whole new batch of them. You know sometimes they'd let you know they were coming sometimes they didn't. I must have had a good staff that time because I was not doing much of anything. Oftentimes we were referred to as communists. I was accused of receiving money to protest this and I kept waiting for the check because it was getting mighty expensive for out of pocket to do the travelling we were doing the printing we were doing taking time out of my life just to go to meetings and so on. It was we were so busy I guess we didn't have time to really think about the frightening aspects because I remember my mother suggested to me that possibly the government would get even that there were many things they could do to get even. And I thought about that a little bit and then I thought well I still have to do what I believe or why am I here. You know I have to do what I believe. And it was so exhausting. It's been years now and I

still am tired from what it took out of us. So what if they came in wanting to do it again I'd fight him again. I don't care for smaller larger or in between I would fight him again. We do not need more missiles and we are not going to take something as valuable as this desert and make it dead. So what about your public officials here. Did they help your we didn't really get a lot of assistance from elected officials. I remember one time there was a hearing in Salt Lake and some of our local people went up and spoke and Dr. Henry came home and said we are so lucky to have two very good representatives looking out for our best interest. Cyberlink from Ohio and Santini from Nevada. We did not get help from our state officials. I don't mean state state I mean like Representative senators and so on. They were very hawkish and very

supportive of the thing and they did not help us at all. One of the officers the guard and I had a real go round one day. It was one of the tours to the area and he was coming here and going to radio station and that we had quite a go around about it ended up screaming at each other out front. And he told me if I didn't if this missile system didn't go in I better learn to speak Russian and I said Well that would be acceptable to me as opposed to speaking air force which is not the truth at least I know where the Russians stand. That was the end of that conversation. But I think toward the end as things got I think we've finally gotten our point across that it would cost too much. There was a lot of former employees. From the HDR who were insisting absolutely standing up in street corners and insisting that they were falsifying the soil

studies out here and not to make it work. Because if you study the soil and were honest about it it wouldn't support that kind of a system and surface water is so close and it's so mineralized. You know it's not usable water. I'll wait on the truck. And what he wanted all along. But I think as as the protests went along we were firing and getting our points across. Of all the fallacies in it. The scary thing of not completing it using so much money using so many natural resources. Are they going to take a system that it would take over 10 years to get into position. Barring no complications whatsoever then does that put us ahead or does that put us behind. Don't we find something that can be done in a year or two because obviously 10 years down the road what they're doing right now is going to be obsolete. So I think

finally politics fell out of the situation about who is going to support who would scratch each other's back and common sense finally took over. And I think particularly when the Mormon church steps a step really particularly out of court you know out of their usual realm to do put a strong protest out. I think that the Mormon Church is the dominant influence in Utah and that would affect Garn and hatch and Marriott and all of them because they're all Mormon and they would listen to their leaders. So what was it. I think we knew that it was dead. I don't think we even had to wait for Reagan's announcement. There's just you know things you know and the potency of religious leaders particularly Mormons is just unquestioned. Even on a national scene. And that was surprising.

They usually don't. It's a it's it's not characteristic of the Mormon Church the leadership to take stands like that. So the fact that they did you know really snapped a lot of heads because they thought well if leadership that doesn't ordinarily you take these kind of stands takes this kind of a stand. Obviously you know they've given it some thought and they feel very strongly about it. What is it to make it not very likely that. Well the Mormon Doctrine is that you uphold your leadership that that's Mormon doctrine. That's part of being a good Mormon is you you are supportive of your leadership whether it's kings presidents rulers or whatever it is you are supporting and to oppose them is just just not in the doctrine. What does it mean for small get well it wasn't just us protesting or it probably would have been.

I mean it would have really been Melford down the road from us was very supportive of it. They just begged them to come in. They were traditionally a railroad town and the railroad didn't stop there anymore and they were in bad economic trouble and they felt that that would bail them out. That's the scary thing that people will will make those kind of tradeoffs. But we weren't the only ones protesting. This seemed to become a focal spot. I really don't know why but there was large groups in Salt Lake in Cedar City in St. George in Las Vegas all around the fringes of it. There were you know many groups of people protesting. So do you feel the government arrested you just throw. Yeah. In Utah we definitely felt that the rest of the nation considered us too insignificant to even give a second thought to what it might do

to us. Just take this and be glad. Did you realize during the summer of 1980 presidential candidate that Ronald Reagan was president. That was I remember as as we watched the political scene. We were always trying to you know to read which which political leaders or potential political leaders how their views would be on that. And but I don't really remember if I if I gave much thought to what Reagan wanted because I felt that it was going to be in Congress and it was going to be more important in the Senate and the Congress. How did you feel. Yes I think we just all gave a big sigh of relief. And but earlier on you know we really

felt it was going down. It was just a matter of time for the announcement. It was winding down. And we were so exhausted so exhausted. Did you feel. Well you can always feel a sense of elation when the small is able to stand up to the big and be successful and our government has become so top heavy and so dictatorial that it was a nice feeling that this small person that the citizenry could still have a say because you don't always get that sense of feeling anymore. Let's just think something here.

Listen I think the lesson we learned from it as is our right still work I think I think they would force the government whoever would like to put out the word that they cancelled it on their own accord that they found out it wasn't exactly what they wanted. But I don't believe that. I think it was the protests that did it. You think that Mr. Reagan had cancer do you think. I always had the feeling that even if if we were you know totally beat down and they went ahead with a system it never be completed. I was just thoroughly convinced that it was going to take too long. And if what the former employees were saying about the oil studies was true they were going to run into all kinds of problems out there that were going to have to require all kinds of modern you know modifications and

changes. And I just never envisioned it would ever been finished ever. And in the meantime they would have set back mining and and probably wiped out a lot of ranchers and sheepmen because they would not have had access to the desert. They would set the country back economically if your country is hungry and your country is on their knees. It doesn't matter how many missiles you have because people worry more about being fed. And that project would have really economically devastated the United States. When when you talk about a whole mountain range which is we have large mountain ranges here that it would require that much gravel and then you have to think a semantical along with it. And where do you get the water to mix all this stuff. And if it was going to be on the train track where do you get all the steel for these miles and miles and miles of train track. I mean it would been economically it would it kill them and it would not matter if they had a missile in everybody's backyard if they were hungry they wouldn't have cared. You know for 10 years the air force studies this strategic mine

in Analyze the way these are 40 different versions and they come up with the one that is the best way. Who are you guys to say this is ridiculous. Were they the ones that did all the studies. Why it's ridiculous. If the air force had their best minds working on this and this was the best they could come up with that scary. That's absolutely scary because it is a ridiculous system. And the reason why we could protest and feel good about it is because this is our desert. We have spent generations on this desert. The Air Force some of them we're seeing it for the first time. So they knew nothing about what they were talking about about the terrain. You know how did you feel about that. Well it was interesting that the greatest minds that supposedly come up with this concept and then they

continually changed it. They were going to pop out of the ground and they were going to have trucks and are going to have him on trains and it's going to be a railroad track and then it wasn't going to be a railroad track it was going to be on the trucks and they were continually changing their ideas and kind of gave you a clue that they were a little worried about what they were actually doing. And how you feel. It was interesting that the greatest minds had come up with this racetrack idea. But then they continually changed that they were going to pop them out of the ground and then they were going to have underground silos and they were going to have on railroad tracks or on trucks and they just kept continually changing which of course gave us hope because they we could see that they were running and running into problems and they were trying to modify. It. Did it make you feel that the whole thing was just too ridiculous.

Yeah that just got worse and worse it was just wonderful. They were so bad. The basic melts just that we finally realized that what was really going to be the teller of the tale was the humor out of this thing. So when we finally start working on the humor aspect and I think that was a big help in its demise. What did you learn this terrible situation. Well you know you get to a point where all you can do is laugh. Everything else is so bad that that's all you can do is laugh. But cartoons started picking up on it and doing some real fun things. It was funny. Well they. I can't think of any right off but political cartoonists were doing great things. I have a book at home where they are fun fun fun.

Well it was it was. How do you describe it. It wasn't really funny funny. It was just I guess ridiculous. And you started playing off of the ridiculous what I was trying to think of specifics. I have an term coming up with specifics in different ways. Well Barry does a great cartoon on the dense pack you know putting him all like a six pack and calling it the dance pack and there was a cartoonist out of Cedar City that did wonderful things but I can't think of any of the specifics right off the top of that. I was in Washington D.C. I was in Washington D.C. in March. I go every year march to our convention. While I was gone my foster daughter and her family were living at my house and she received a phone call an anonymous phone call. The man was looking for me. And she told him that he could reach

me there and he said well he would just tell her some things. And she kept saying well you ought to call her but anyway he went into great detail about how he had been involved in the concept from the start and that it must be stopped. It was ridiculous. It wouldn't work but he could not do it himself because he would be just you know they would discredit him. And so he wouldn't get any. I mean it wouldn't serve any purpose and I never thought it was a crank call because a lot of the things that she took notes on that he talked about was not really public yet it was later that these things became more and more public and then I referred back to those notes of what she'd given so I'm sure it was a legitimate call. But he never called back and I have no idea who it was just he just said Tell her to keep fighting. He just kept saying Tell her to keep fighting it's got to be stopped. He said I've been in on it from the start it won't work it's ridiculous it's it's just ludicrous. Tell her to keep fighting. Tell him to keep

fighting