American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Frederick Leonard, 1 of 2

Ok, well after reading in the paper at the high schools ?inaudible? in ?Chattanooga? About the sit-ins in Nashville we, decided that we would try again in Chattanoogar which we don't know anything about nonviolence so after school we would get on the bus went downtown went to the lunch- counters and when they snatched us off those lunchounters, off the stools, we were fighting, we were violent and we fought. The next day went back, we did the same thing and then the day after, the same thing - violence. We were fighting back and, uh, ?no? I think it was the was fourth day we went. They had just closed them down. They had closed down the lunch counter. So, you know, we were nonviolent, but we accomplished closing those lunch counters down. Now, when I came to Nashville in 1960 in September ?filed? to go to school at TSU. I- I immediately sought out the people in the civil rights movement and, uh, when I found them, I went to the meeting and, uh, they were talking about -- Bernard Lafayette is the one who was standing up talkin' about, "We will bring this system down through nonviolence and passive resistance,"

and me, you know, I'm 18 years old. I had never heard of passive resistance. I couldn't figure it out. I'm looking around in the meeting to see if I was the only one who didn't know what passive resistance meant because to me, I don't see how you can resist, being passive. And so, you know, Bernard said, um, if- if you- if if you're not going to be nonviolent, then you can't be a part of this movement. It is a non violent movement. ?inaudible voices? Ok, um, when I first went to the meeting, um, through the Nonviolent Coordinating Committee Bernard Lafayette got up and said that, uh, this would be a non- violent movement that we would defeat this system, this evil system of segregation with nonviolence and passive resistance. And being 18 years old, I had never heard of passive resistance and

I knew violence, because you're raised to be violent. You know, your mamma, your daddy tells you, somebody hits you and you hit them back. You take up for your sister- you know, you fight back. Bernard Lafayette says, "Well, if you cannot be nonviolent, you cannot be a part of this movement." And I wanted so bad to be a part of the movement because I hated segregation so much. I wanted to change and help change the system. I decided to go along with the program and- and so I joined the movement, the nonviolent movement. [coughing, inaudible background voices] Interviewer: Continue with the Freedom Riders. Leonard: The Freedom Riders. Okay. [inaudible background voices] So how'd you feel when you heard that [Core?] was going to cancel the Freedom Riders? I felt, that- I don't want to call them cowards, but I felt I felt like, why-why would they give up on this? You know, this we-we what we deal with this everyday in the South. We deal with violence every day.

You know, we- uh, we-we knew Emmett Till, when the whole world knew Emmett Till. We knew what happened there, and, and here you- you're saying that you're going to start a movement, you gonna do something to change this, and then you quit. I think our parents always tell us, "Finish what you start." And when they- when they quit, John Lewis came back to Nashville and, uh, we had a meeting and everybody decided, ok well we'll pick it up from here. We'll start the Freedom Riders back from Nashville. Everybody in the meeting wanted to be on that first bus. And we were- all the ones who did not get to get on the first bus- were really disappointed. And I was one, that did not get on that first bus, and I was upset. So where do we go? Interviewer: I mean, weren't you... weren't you afraid? I mean, you know, these people had just been brutally beat, they had cancelled outgoing buses and burned... Leonard: Didn't have enough sense to be

scared. Well, I'll say young. Okay, I'll say young. Young, feeling invincible. And what we all knew, at least going to the meeting we talked about it. That somebody may get killed. But of course, everybody felt, "okay, it won't be me." You know, we all felt, "okay, well, might might be you, though." You know? But we all felt, "well, it won't be me." It was nothing for us to just jump up and go. We were ready. Interviewer: Um, what did you- [inaudible] When CORE- there's a little bit more here. Leonard: Mmhm. Interviewer: -when CORE decided to cut off the ride, what did you all think about CORE and the people who cut it off, what did you think about them? Leonard: You don't want me to say that. Interviewer: Yes I do. Leonard: [laughs] No. Interviewer: Yeah! What did you think? Leonard: Let me see if I can dress it up. Interviewer: No, don't dress it up. What did you think? Leonard: Well, we We felt - I think we felt that, we felt that

they'd just got in over their heads, that they didn't really understand the South. That, you know, they were from the North, New York, and kind of reminds me of something I heard, um, Joseph Lowery say once, about, these two white guys from New York went to Mississippi, driving drunk go over over here. Run into a car with two black guys in it. One black guy is thrown out into a cotton field. The other black guy comes through to windshield, man, a man in the backseat of a man's car. Killed both of them. The police come and they said, "Oh, we're sorry. We're sorry. We're sorry. We were drunk, and we were driving on the wrong side going over here." And the police says, "Calm down. You see that colored boy out there in that field? We gonna charge him with leaving the scene of an accident." and that one in the backseat of your car? We gonna charge him with breaking and

entering." That's the way the South was. They didn't understand that. We dealt with violence in the South. Everyday. Interviewer: So you felt that, that CORE- Leonard: I felt that they didn't understand. They, didn't, I guess they thought that they would come to the South, and uh- be greeted, be greeted as though they were humans. They didn't treat us like we were human. They treated us like vicious animals, like they were always on guard, thinking that we gonna do something to them while they were doing it to us. and CORE, I think, they felt that South, you know, we- we'll go down there. and you know, they'll let us, ride the front of the bus going to the white station, the white waiting room and everything will be alright, we'll just go all the way to New Orleans doing this, and then come back to New York see, we did it! It wasn't like that.

Interviewer: What do you think it meant or would've done to the movement if the CORE rides had stopped and that had been it? Do you know what I mean? Why, not only- you, know, why- for the movement, why was it necessary for the ride- Why couldn't they just, CORE just say it's over, and the ride's stopped. Leonard: It's like I said, your parents tell you, don't start something that you can't finish. Finish it. Interviewer: When did you, when did you first learn that, um, that the second wave was going down? You guys, now, second wave of riders from Nashville were gonna be part of, uh, were gonna go down to Birmingham. Leonard: As soon as John Lewis came back. Got someone's- Interviewer: No, but you were in the second. You didn't- Leonard: Oh, the second one, oh. Okay, the second one. When they arrested the first group in Birmingham they they took that group out of jail, dropped them off at the state line, but we

we were all already prepared as soon as- if the first bus was attacked by a mob, or arrested, whatever, we were- we were prepared, waiting to get on the next bus, and then there was a group waiting to get on another bus if they had stopped us. We were prepared to just continue to continue going. So, where do I go now? [laughing] um, you gotta tell me what to do. Interviewer: Cut. You're doing great. So, the first group has been arrested. and you guys decide to go down. What happened when you got to Birmingham? Leonard: When we go to Birmingham, went into a bus station. It was kind of odd because, you know, we went in the white side and they didn't- they didn't do anything. The Klan walked through, they had guns. They just walked right on through. They didn't do anything. I guess it was just, they were just gonna intimidate us. I don't know if they had already decided, well, "we're gonna

let them get to Montgomery," you know, "well, we'll just let them sit here thinking that everything will be okay," and uh, when we got the- we stayed in the bus station all night, and we went- if someone had to use the restroom then, it was like four, five people went. You know, as they say, safety in numbers. Um. But uh, we stayed in the bus station all night. And the next day, we went to Montgomery, and of course you know. [Interviewer] When- did you know that