American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Frederick Leonard, 2 of 2

do students at- at Nashville decide, you know, you're going to go down there, you're going to continue to Freedom Ride, did you seek the the approval of CORE, NAACP, SCLC? Leonard: No, we didn't. We did it on our own. In fact, SCLC was really supporting, um, in Nashville, was a Nashville Christian leadership council which was an affiliate of SCLC. Kelly Miller Smith was here and he was supporting everybody, SCLC, they- you know, it was like, whenever you do, we will support you. Whatever the students do, we will support you. And, uh now, we-we had telephone numbers of, um, SCLC members in Birmingham and in Montgomery if we got separated. So SCLC was behind us all the way. They were one hundred percent behind us. [Interviewer]: But the CORE and NAACP? [Leonard]: Well, CORE, I think had just, NAACP CORE, I think they had just kind of like- okay, the

NAACP was not a part of it, and CORE had just abandoned it. They had abandoned it. They had just just left it. But once we started it back, then CORE came back. They came back onboard. SCLC, of course, you know, Abernathy, Shuttlesworth, uh, Dr. King, of course, they were there. [Interviewer]: So we're back in, uh, Birmingham, and you guys- did you know that- there was kind of high-power negotiation [coughing] going on? Between, uh, you know, RFK and- [Leonard]: Had no idea; had no idea all that was going on. [Interviewer]: Let me just- uh, my question aren't going to be in it, for it, you know what I'm saying? [Leonard]: Oh, okay. [laughs] [Interviewer]: So you gotta say, you know, [Leonard]: Okay. [Interview]: -no idea that this negotiations were going on, blah blah blah. All we knew was we were just taking- whatever. Okay, so did you know this was going on? [Leonard]: No, we we had no idea that there were ne- negotiations- negotiations going on- [Interviewer]: Let's start over. [Leonard]: Okay. [laughs] We had no idea there were negotiations on, and we had no idea that Kennedy had sent

um, oh, what is the name, um- Seigenthaler. We had no idea that he had sent Seigenthaler on the bus with us. Uh, we had no idea that there was a man in Montgomery's house that we made it to, which we did eventually make it to his house, that it was a safe haven. And- [Interviewer]: Okay, I wanna- I wanna cut, because I don't wanna go all-in on that, 'cause we're not there, I just wanna negotiations going on behind. Leonard: No, we had no idea that there were negotiations going on Governor Patterson, RFK, President Kennedy, we had no idea. We were in the bus station and all we knew was we were trying to get to New Orleans. [Interviewer]: Mmhm. Um, what do you remember about the trip when we finally get this protection and you take the trip, um, to Montgomery, from Birmingham to Montgomery; What do you remember? [Leonard]: Uh, I know that- that- I don't know- When we were in- in, uh, Mont- Birmingham, I don't- I don't

I don't understand just what- why, and at that time I didn't understand why the plan will come through the bus station, but not harm us. But now I'm finding out, I guess, Governor Patterson must have, you know, he must have sent some warnings or something, and told somebody, "leave them alone." But, uh, when we left there, we just- we don't understand, we can't understand to this day why they attacked us in Montgomery but not in Birmingham. Well, when we got to Birmingham, it was- it was a- [Interviewer]: I want you talking- [Leonard]: I mean to Mongomery, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Time to cut. [Laughs] [Interviewer]: That's fine. I got you for another one, 'cause I want you- do you remember anything about the bus trip at all? [Leonard]: Oh, where, from Birmingham to Montgomery? [Interviewer]: Yeah, that's where you had all the protection and stuff? Do you remember anything about the bus trip? [Leonard]: Oh, seemed like there was some- ugh! You'll have to ask Bernard. [Interviewer]: Okay, that's fine. We got a lot of- [Leonard]: Seemed- seemed like to me that there was- there was something. [Interviewer]: What do you remember, and I want you to just give me the blow-by-blow, you know, as much as you can go back, as

much as you can remember, as much as you can think about, is- is what happened when the bus gets into Montgomery. Okay? So the bus gets into Montgomery, what happened? [Leonard]: When we pulled into Montgomery, it just seemed like the mob just came up out the ground. ?inaudible? It just seemed like, oh, just suddenly! They were- we were, like- the bus was, like, surrounded! You know and when we had to come out the bus, because of, you know, what happened in Anniston; you know you not gon' stay on the bus. You already seen what happens if they- because they tried to kill those people ?inaudible? on the bus in Anniston. They tried to stand up against the door and not let them out while the bus was on fire. So you know we had to come off the bus. And when we came off the first thing that the mob did was went after the white students that were with us. They tried to- Jim Zwerg? They tried to kill him. I mean, absolutely. John Lewis was hit in the head with a milk crate or something, um, William Barbee was like-

knocked down- a big, I mean, like maybe two hundred and fifty pound white guy had his foot on his neck while another one was trying to drive a steel rod through his ear! [sighs] John Lewis, Jim Zwerg, William Barbee they- they took the worst of the whipping. Bernard Lafayette, myself, along with Allen Cason, we were pushed up against the rail, and we had a width of about fifteen feet down, like, we had a choice to jump over that rail to concrete below, or stay there and wait for the mob to throw us over there. So we jumped over the rail, went into a building which ended up being a post office, came out the other side, and I guess everybody knew what was happening even though it was quiet on the other side. It was, like, peaceful, like a Sunday morning. It was real peaceful, but every black cab driver that came by we asked for- you know, to give us a ride, we wanted a ride, they wouldn't do it.

Finally one black cab driver stopped and took us to the church. And, um, I think we had a mass meeting that night, had a mass meeting that night and the- Interviewer: [inaudible] Leonard: Okay. [Interviewer]: I'mma go back there Leonard: Well one thing- the first thing I heard was, "kill the n*****s and the n***** lovers," that was the first thing I heard. And they attempted to do it. It was like- they were like animals! They were like- it was a feeding frenzy! Like, you know how sharks will just- they were just crazy! I guess we have to cut. [laughter, inaudible] Interviewer: Okay, I'm going to have to ask you one more time. Tell me again what it was like [laughter] when you got out there. Leonard: Okay, where do we go? Like- Interviewer: You can just say, "It was like a feeding frenzy." Just start there. Leonard: I

forgot where I left off at. Where did I leave off at? Interviewer: Okay, so, [laughter] you were talking about how it felt, what you heard- Leonard: Okay, when we got- okay. When we pulled- the first thing I heard was- do I go back that far? Interviewer: Yes. Leonard: Okay, the first thing I heard was "kill the n*****s and the n***** lovers," and that's what they tried to do. The white students that were with us, they wanted them first. And Jim Zwerg really took an- an awful whipping. He took a beating. I think that's one reason why we were able to kinda escape, because they were so busy trying to kill him. John Lewis was hit in the head with a crate, William Barbee was knocked down, stepped on, stomped on, this big guy- big white guy, about 250 pounds, put his foot on his neck

while another guy tried to drive a steel rod through his ear. While all of this is going on, we- you know, we're pushed up against a rail, and the mob is moving toward us, and we looked down; it's about fifteen feet down. So we have a choice to stay there, let them throw us over there, or to jump. We jumped over. I think, um, I got an injury to my leg, uh, Bernard Lafayette got an injury- a head injury, but for the most part we were able to escape. We went into this building- found out later it was a post office- came out on the other side. I saw some black cab drivers, but they would not pick us up. They knew what was happening, even though it was really quiet on that side. Just like a Sunday morning. It was peaceful on that side! You wouldn't know that all this was going on. But they- they would not pick us up. But finally a black cab- cab driver picked us up and took us to the church. And we all had telephone numbers

to get in contact with different people. Interviewer: Talk about the church that night- you said that that night they had this meeting. Leonard: Yes, there was a- Interviewer: -you guys kinda hid out. How did you guys hide out? Leonard: Uh, okay. That night, there was a mass meeting at the church. And, uh, the police was looking for us. And somebody came in, said the police was out there looking for them. And we all went into the choir loft, put on robes. And they came in, they looked in the pews, they never looked up in the choir loft. If they had looked up there, they would have seen John Lewis with a big patch on his head because he had been released from the hospital. And we left out of that church, we- we got out of that church, and some of us- a- the- uh National Guard, we called it- uh, Kennedy had federalized the National Guard. The National Guard took some of us out of there. [Interviewer]: Do you remember- you, before they took you out, do you remember when- what was going on, do you remember seeing, hearing,

the mob outside or anything? How did you- [Leonard]: Oh, yeah, that was- it was Mike O'Brien outside. Interviewer: How you know? When did you first realize that there was a problem outside? Leonard: The next day. [laughs] I mean- are you talking about right there, in the church? [Interviewer]: Yeah. Leonard: I mean, I didn't realize what was going on outside really until the next day, because it was like a riot outside. But we were inside, and people were singing, and the preacher was up in the pulpit talking about all this- this viciousness that's going on in this city. But outside, it was a lot of disturbance which I didn't realize, I guess because we were- we were inside the church. But it just- I don't know why. Uh- it was like, we- we didn't hear what was going on outside until somebody came in, said the police was coming. The police was coming in the church. And that's when we went into the choir loft. [Interviewer]: Um- so the next day, a couple of days later, you guys finally get out and go to Mississippi. Do you remember the ride down to Mississippi? [Leonard]: No, But what happened

was. Now, I sound like they got- okay- [laughs] Okay, lemme start over. Okay, what happened there was, we, we regrouped and came back to Nashville. We came back to Nashville and we decided that we would take a different route, and we would not test anything until we got to Jackson, Mississippi. We went through Memphis. We stayed on the back of the bus, we didn't get off the bus. We stayed on the back, and when we got to Jackson, we got to the bus station, we got off the bus station, the police was waiting for us. They said, "keep moving, keep moving." We went out the other side of the bus station into the paddy wagon. But what we didn't know at the time was that, uh, Ross Barnett, the governor of Mississippi, had told all the white people in Mississippi, "Stay home. Stay home, let us handle this." He said, "There will be no violence

in Mississippi." And there was no violence in Mississippi, even though that was the state most known for hanging you. You know, that was the most violent state. But Ross Barnett said, "Let us handle this," and that's what they did. They took us straight to the paddy wagon, to the jail, to court, and to the state penitentiary. [Interviewer]: Okay, I'm gonna ask you to do that one more time, and then I think we got a beginning. If you could just kinda start out "when we got to Mississippi." [Leonard]: Okay. When we got to Mississippi, we went- we got off the bus, went into the white side of the bus station, the police was there- there was a line of police officers, and they said, "Keep moving, keep moving, keep moving," and they just shuffled us right on out into the paddy wagon, took us to the county jail. The next day, we went to court and we were all sentenced to sixty days in

the state penitentiary, and five hundred dollar fine. And the day after that, we went in the state penitentiary. [Interviewer]: What had you heard about the- uh, now you grew up in the South, what had you heard about the penal system in Mississippi? What did you know about that? [Leonard]: I didn't know much about the penal system, in Mississippi. But um, after I got there, I found out a lot about it. I found out that they had white prisoners who could guard black prisoners, which was weird to me. They could actually go out in the field- we could see them go out in the fields with white prisoners with- with prison uniforms on, guarding -with guns- guarding black prisoners. Now, that was weird. [Interviewer]: Let's cut. You have to say 'Tennesee State University.' [Leonard]: Okay, yeah, because of the two men TSU had, that's right, yeah. [Interviewer]: Okay. [Leonard]: Mmhm.

[Interviewer]: So, what did you find out once you were in jail, about school? [Leonard]: Okay, when- when we were in jail, in- in Jackson, we found out that Tennessee State University had ex- expelled us from school, which we were really upset, because we would think, being a black university, that they would really be behind us and support us. But, we found out later that it was not the school, but it was the state that ordered Tennessee State. They had passed a law, they had passed a law the year before, I think it was 1960, that- uh- to try to prevent a student from sitting in. They had passed a law saying that- any student arrested- or something, something crazy- cou- would be expelled from school. and, uh, ?inaudible? state law. And so they used that law to expell us from school. [Interviewer]: Okay. Um. What do you remember most about being in- in, in jail, incarcerated? [Leonard]: I guess what

remember most about being in Parchman was, you had to sleep on these- in these little cots, In a pair of shorts and a T-shirt. That's what the men had. We only had had a T-shirt and a pair of shorts. And we only got out of the cell twice a week, and that was to take a shower. You get out, and you had to walk down the cell block naked. Ya know. And it was just to take a shower, twice a week. And we were not allowed a book. The only book we were allowed was the Bible. That was the only book that we could read. And I- I guess I read that thing a lot. But- I guess, the most memorable thing for me in Parchman, was when we would sing, they would threaten us. "Shut up, or we'll take your mattress from ya!" So, you know, we wouldn't stop singing because of a threat take our mattresses, you know. So, one day we were singing and they came in

and they took everybody's mattress. Everybody's. So had to sleep on that cold, steel ?bed?, with just a pair of short pants and a T-shirt. They gave us our mattresses back. So, you know, after we kind of got used to it, we started singing again. "Freedom's coming and it won't be long." They said, "Shut up! Stop that singing, or we'll take those mattresses!" We kept singing. So here they come again to take the mattresses. So everybody gave their mattresses up, and Stokely Carmichael was my cell mate. So, me and Stokely, we decided, we're not giving our mattresses up. And they came in, and they started to take the mattresses, and we were holding onto them. And somehow they got Stokely aloof from his. They took his mattress. But I was still holding on to mine. And so they pulled me out into the cell block, and they were pulling me down

the cell block, telling me "Turn the mattress loose!" and I wouldn't do it, and they didn't hit me, they did not bother me. I mean, these big white guards, they didn't put their hands on me. They just kept saying, "Turn it loose, turn it loose, turn it loose," and I wouldn't do it. So finally, they got this black guard, who was- not black guard, I'm sorry, black prisoner, I mean, who was a prisoner, and told him to take my mattress. And I felt so bad for him, I mean, he was built. I don't know if they had weights in the prison system, but he looked like he had been lifting weights for years. He had muscles. And he begged me to turn that mattress loose. He said, "Please, turn it loose. Let it go." 'Cause he's black, he does not want to beat me. But he knows what's gon' happen to him if he does not. I wouldn't turn the mattress loose. They called him, "Peewee." The white guards told him,

"Get him, Peewee." Peewee started crying, but Peewee started beating me on my head [slaps hands together], "Bam! Bam! Bam!" He would beg me, "Please turn it loose!" It- "Bam! Bam!" "Turn it loose, please!" And I was still holding on to that mattress. And finally, one of the white guards put something around my wrist, looked like hand cuffs, but it wasn't. Put something around my wrist, and started turning it. And when he turned it, my hand just popped out, just like that. And it was painful. They call 'em wrist breakers. And that's when I finally turned the mattress loose. I mean, I had no choice. They made me turn it loose. But Peewee, I wish I could see him today. I wish I could see Peewee. Because, I- I really- I really would like to tell Peewee, "Peewee, I love you, brother." and I understand why he did it. I really understand, and he knew that if he did not beat me like that,

they may have even killed him. ?Hey?, I guess they were looking- "You siding with outside agitators?" That's my most memorable moment from Parchman. [Interviewer]: ?Tell me about the] time they -he's called "Peewee"- so you- they're trying to get you from the mattress, and for some reason [laughs] you're not letting that mattress go. [Leonard]: No, no, I would not turn that mattress loose. I remember how cold that steel was. I don't know, I- I do not know why, because I knew eventually they were going to take that mattress. But I just- I- I was determined I was going to hold on to that mattress, and they- when they dragged me out into the cell block, The wa- I was all the way down through the cell block, you know, they're telling me, you know, "Turn the mattress loose, turn the mattress loose," until finally, that's when they told Peewee- do I need to go back that far? I'm sorry. [Interviewer]: Yeah, you need to tell us who Peewee was. [Leonard]: Okay, Pee- Interviewer: So- so then, they call Peewee, and whatever. Leonard: Okay, Peewee was a prisoner, was a black prisoner in the state penitentiary,

built like Arnold Schwartzenegger. You know? I mean, he was built! He was short, but he was built! You know. And um- finally, when I wouldn't turn the mattress loose, they told Peewee to "Get him," they said, "Get him, Peewee!" And Peewee begged me to turn the mattress loose. And I wouldn't do it. And he was crying, he was begging me, "Please!" to turn it loose. And you know, they said "Get him, Peewee!" And so, Peewee just started beating me. Uh, just- all the blows were to my head. Head- No- no body punches, all to my head. Uhm! And he was begging me, "Turn the mattress loose! Turn the mattress loose! Turn it loose! Please, turn it loose!" I mean, uh- it seemed like every time he hit me, every time he hit me, just seemed like more tears came out of his eyes. Uh, he did not want to beat me like that, but he know that if he didn't, what they would do to him. Finally- because even with the whipping that I was taking from Peewee, I did not turn that mattress loose. But the guards pulled out something- looked like handcuffs, but they weren't. They called them "wrist breakers." He put it around my wrist and

turned it- like that. Just turned it. And then- just- I mean, it was painful, and my hand just popped straight out- just like that. And that's when they got the mattresses- the mattress from me. That's when they took the mattress. [Interviewer]: Okay, let's cut. Leonard: [laughs] Interviewer: Let me ask you, um, talk about singing, why did- why did you all sing so much in jail? And what did it do to the guards? [Leonard]: Um, it- it irritated the guards and- and it seemed as though they- they felt that we were in jail, we should be, you know, like, "Let us outta here!" But we were like, "We're glad to be here!" You know, we singing freedom songs! You know, and I mean, we- we've sung, I mean, so many songs, we started making up songs in jail. And, uh, um, old James Bevel. James Bevel, he- he was good at making up songs. He made up some songs, and we would all sing them. And the guards just felt like, "Why are these people people singin? They, they, they happy. Which, you know, we weren't

really happy to be in there, but we want to fill the jails up, too. We wanted to fill the jails up, that's why we- because we could have gotten out of jail. But we actually ended up staying, like, forty- forty-something days, and, um, Take that back, sorry. [Interviewer]: That's okay- listen, I want you to finish up with the singing. And maybe, do you know what that song was, that song that you were singing? Singing's always good. [Leonard]: Uh, okay, okay, um, I'm sorry, we- James Bevel, you know, he just, you know, um, this is a thing that he was singing that we need to purify our bodies- and- James- James Bevel was something else, man! [Interviewer]: I've heard. [Leonard]: Hoo-wee! [laughs] James Bevel had us believing that we could stand up there and make the cell blocks open. He told us all to stand and look at the cell block- Is he filiming? [Interviewer]: No. [Leonard]: Oh. [laughs]. He told us all to stand up and look at the cell block, and if we looked long enough they would

open, and, uh. And you know, we said, oh, you know, you're crazy. And he- he stood up there, and he was looking ?inaudible? starin' at the cell block, just staring. And it seemed like everybody said, "Maybe it'll work." Interviewer: [laughs] Leonard: You know? And so all of us got and we start staring at the cell block! You know, staring, ya know, ?inaudible? of course they never open. You're not recording that, are you? [laughs] [Interviewer]: No. Leonard: [laughs] Okay. [Interviewer]: I wanted- I wanted you to talk a little more about singing. 'Cause I think you started out with singing, and you went to something else Leonard: Yeah, I always do that. [chuckles] Interviewer: That's okay. That was something good, but what you said why did you sing- [Leonard]: But I- I'm not singing. Interviewer: -and what did it do to the guards? [Leonard]: The singing, it irritated the guards, but it made us feel good, because it was like communication. We- you know, all of us went ?inaudible? all of us went up and down the cell block, singing um, I guess, um-um, our favorite song "Freedom coming and- and it won't be long." That was our favorite song. Did you want me to actually sing? [sings] "Freedom's coming, and it won't be long."

That's all I'm going to do. [laughs] Okay. Oh, you need my ex-wife here to sing. She can sing. [Interviewer]: [coughs] But since the singing was a- uh [Leonard]: It was not led. It was- it was, you know, we were cooped up in, I don't know how big those cells were. They were like, uh, my goodness, maybe, oh, eight, eight by ten or something like that? I don't even know if they were that big. I mean, you got two people in there with nothing but a toilet. Ya know. So. [Interviewer]: Okay, let's cut the video. [Leonard]: Are you still filming? Interviewer: ?inaudible? that that, you know, you had a lot of emotions, you were really back there in that moment. And so that there- what was the crowd like, what was the emotion of the crowd like? When- when you get the bus doors open, when you get off the bus they come flying through those double doors, what was the emotion of the crowd like?

[Leonard]: The crowd was like, shh...shocks. A feeding frenzy. Okay? [laughs, claps] Are- are you filming? Interviewer: Are you getting everything, seriously, or no? Cameraman: I'm rolling. Interviewer:'Cause I- What was the crowd- you don't even have to stay that. You can just say whatever you can think of. Leonard: Okay. Let me see- How- I don't know what I said the first time. Do we go back to- [Interviewer]: I just want to know, what was the emotion of the crowd like? What was the crowd like? [Leonard]: The crowd was like- the crowd was like- they were like, "Can you believe they got the nerve to come here and try this?" So we gon' teach 'em." So when we got off that bus, that's what they were trying to do. They beat us, William Barbee was hit, knocked down- [Interviewer]: We- we- Leonard: Okay, we got that part? [Interviewer]: Yeah. [Leonard]: Okay. Interviewer: I just wanted to get the- the emotion of the crowd. That- that's good. [Leonard]: Okay. [Interviewer]: One of the things I-

no, you can roll. What was- this is going, this is a kind of a different thing- [Leonard]: Okay. [Interviewer]: What was travel like back then for black people? You know what I mean? I mean, this is all about inter-state travel. What- what was so bad about it? [Leonard]: What was so bad about it was, we were denied citizenship. That was- that was a thing. You were denied citizenship, you were- you were treated you weren't a citizen. You- you know, you- you don't have- you don't have a right. You don't have the right to- to ride on any part of the bus. You've- the, uh- the, uh, the bus terminals. The white side? Elaborate. The black side? A little hole. A little dark, dingy hole. And you- you know, the white side of the bus station, it was, you know, it was like- like you don't exist. It was like you were hidden away.

You're not- you're not- you're not American. You're- you're not- you're not- we are citizens, too. That's what we're looking at. You're denying us citizenship. Where do I go next? [Interviewer]: We have to change tapes. Um, okay, let's just, [inaudible] [Woman speaking]: This is, um, room tone? Interviewer: [inaudible]