War and Peace in the Nuclear Age; Interview with Morarji Desai, 1987

This is it. Scuse me but this is an interview with Mirage. Decide it is February 14th 1987 and we're starting on you but number 0 0 9 0 6 6 in Bombay India. It. Has to decide. First remember the period when you were in the government. The early period when this. Was the prime minister. What do you remember about his view on the nuclear issue nuclear weapons. Mr. Nader was against nuclear weapons. As a matter of fact India from the very time it became independent. It took a different stand again nuclear weapons that we had against it. And we were in manufacturing that has been the stand from the very beginning.

You know just pick your other think about it. Because we kind of wind the nuclear weapons we only destroy the will not. Benefit go in in any way it is only of a point of destruction. It doesn't give victory under the person I'm using it because the alternative would destroy. THE WORLD with me I don't know how much a portion of the world and we destroyed a major part of it really struggling for the good of it who are new again out. And that is why we have been against the trend of any meaning but he was against it too. You know the new policy. The policy has been the same from the very beginning. Of all. The time we became free. And that is the policy which we have followed. Discussion and conversation.

So it is a question of discussion. It's what we believe in the same thing. Do you know any conversations I don't remember now conversations. Do you know anything else about you. Know we hear the same view. So between us then there's no question of any discussion. We agreed completely in that view. Therefore it is a question of a discussion between us. The discussion coming on Levy says that US would be fucked. Either way there is no discussion. Now. The nonproliferation treaty in which India didn't sign chose not signed. Why did you feel so strongly against the nonproliferation treaty.

At that time used to sign the nonproliferation treaty because. Those who asked us to sign the nonproliferation treaty. And then themselves keeping it to mean weapons. The NDR stress not to do it. How can we sign it. I told them in these very words. That if good robbers come to me and said well get hit really tear on me. Unless you give up these weapons. I can't saying with you I can't be with your company. But if we then resign or not sign with greed or not the whole world does that I'm agreeable and we will get there the divination that we're made because we believe in it. And if we don't practice it what right have you to

play that people in order to have it is therefore that we have taken a very consistent attitude on the very beginning. Well the people who actually sponsor the cittie. Want their main aim was to stop the spread of nuclear weapons. They do not feel that it would do in the long run how. It would have a monopoly. Those people who live in one of them have nuclear weapons it grew worse. You dig you have nuclear weapons and sign a treaty. I can understand a containment that we're now going to cheat in company with criminals. Yes you do you remember when the Chinese exploded the bomb. Do you remember how you felt at that time when you heard that news there were the Chinese. When I heard about it I don't know the details about. My

reaction to it. Well I was against it. Because when you. Go on believing the weapons. Or the meaning of making experiments with you. It's one thing to make experiments for nuclear energy. And another thing. For making experience for a bomb the world quite different. This is dandy. Did she feel the same way as you did about Bill here all to believe in the same philosophy. At least she said so. She and agreement with you when it came to the treaty. Yes he agreed agreed that when I worked I quit I wouldn't agree. So I don't know that he was in agreement or not when Russians asked me to

sign. She didn't ask me. I said I can't. And so I have been going to arrest you I gave the code ring talking in there and we have a government. She asked me to do that. I don't know left who are still with us she would have stuck to it. Because it's not easy to defer from all other people. But when you want to follow the rules you have to be alone. When was that visit to Russia that you took when. I first visited in 1960. I was in finance minister is a man fact I first went out to India only in 58

as finance minister and I went to the World Bank and they were in Greenland for the Kona visit conference that when they were in fifty eight before that I knew were going out of India. Now after the nonproliferation treaty in 1974 when the Indian test took place. What was your reaction to the test the Indian Test the pok pok when they do their own thing they should not have done it and that is what Mrs Gandhi had known. But it was not done for the moment. She did it just to. Do their own things she should not have done in this raid was misunderstood. Why did she take that decision. But if you wanted to show that we all took a bit of a look. Showing that in our training scheme.

Then you're not really strong and you want to feel you are strong. You're bound to make mistakes. A strong person does not need remote station showed me the action that is wrong. But no one who want to demonstrate strength is not really strong. There's what I believe. Would you mind me asking just to ask anything you like I don't care any restraint. I just want to repeat that. If I can ask you what your reaction was to the deil test. What you did. As I said I was against it I said so. And in that time. I wouldn't go and win. Just then you felt you could just sit down. You should not have been because it creates a lot of

misunderstanding. You're short a double standard. Because North Ridge is not the moon. How can you stop other people from making the experiment. It shouldn't have been done. But it was not really a nuclear weapon which was exploded. Because only an explosion meet the sort of thing that we know it so. He had no follow up or anything. There are nuclear. Explosions here follow which we can take surrounding he has another. He said none. Do you think. The whole world when we understand. Why only Pakistan. Anybody would misunderstand it.

This is a sign. What was the purpose of Mr. Carter's visit to see you in 1977. The late 70s. The purpose was really good relations I think. Just as I would read you. I assure you I mean we're getting pushed here and I will come there. You compress. But it was just a friendly visit I don't think there was any particular purpose in it unless he had something else in his mind I don't know what he wanted you to sign a safeguards agreement. He didn't try to do that but I did go to him in plain words what they said. How can a sane. Treat you like that.

And he feels did try that. Then I gave the combating of a robber. He felt it to be it. And so after a meeting was over. Then he made his own advice. He told them that this man seems to be a very tough guy really had to be tough with him going back to Washington. He said that. And one of these men told me this. He pretended that to me. So when Mr. Carter met me again for another conference and we had some difference of opinion. And then I said Mr. Carter why did you become tough you know I had to be tough after going to work and can be tough here and see what it means. And then he said he was sorry.

He alleged it was wrong. But it is always better to be truthful and frank. Not keep anything in your mind. Then the relation to my relations with him going really going. The Indian nuclear industry depends on United States for supplies at this time. Really they don't supply anything. They didn't complain that if you say it's a play. I said you were really wrong because when you had made. This agreement with us to supply us with these things then there was nothing this. How can you know Jane that. You are totally wrong but you can do to feel like. You don't believe in keeping your word I don't mind. Just so it's clear for me and. Do you did you believe at that point in the peaceful new to me explosions we talked

about the test. Do you believe in peace. There was such a thing as a peaceful nuclear explosion. There is a peaceful nuclear use of nuclear energy for the next city for their purposes. It can be used. And I don't see anything wrong in doing that. Everything can be used for bad purposes and for it would put it we have been going to be used for sale defense anyone can use for an attack. We came to me and there's me. But we don't keep the army to attack anybody. We're new at deg many boarding. You need to leave her self-defense. Do you think we're doing enough today to stop the spread of weapons. They're saying they're dead but I don't see much.

Carnage to forgive argued yet. Pointing to and. I think we're doing enough to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons. What are they doing. America is again making explosions something. Unless they're determined to do it. It can be done. And those who want to have a leadership of the word they will never stop doing it. I don't know why they want to be a leader of anybody. There is a great goal in them. Where do you want to be my leader I do want to be leader anybody. We are now living you know. He is quite different from the world before. And really on no considering the. Independence of all people.

He's equally important and equally secular saint. Therefore the freedom of United States is not more. Than the freedom of a small state of 2000 people. You must treat them equally and their ways. You have freedom you know what. This is about your crew and what I told them and they had to agree. Do you think that nuclear weapons carry some kind of magical power. Status that yes they do they want to frighten their people by that they way they do want to have nuclear weapons. It's only meant for destruction. It's just you. Can you tell me again why President Karzai came over to see what

is in terms of the nuclear issue what he wanted to. I think he came only for good relations. But incidentally he thought he might persuade me also. Because signed the treaty is a matter of fact. He wanted us to keep to nonproliferation. That is not to use nuclear weapons. That is but that was only that he did not have part of that because we were still get it did we not. But it was not on property on his part or tell me that because he was keeping nuclear weapons. How can he ask me not to do. This or that or tell him. This is Gandhi's view on the nonproliferation treaty. Did you and she agree on that very meandering.

You you felt a little more strongly towards I don't know where that believes in the Metra principle as I believe I can see. He may or may not be may be relieved to know she's no more. One cons kind of thing about it. Can you just explain what policy was when you were Prime Minister in terms of nuclear issues. How you felt about this terrible thing. What made my body she had that time. When the same policy of India but I mean I tried to work. And I spoke in the United Nations I'll talk. About it. And then there might be 10 men not to have this nuclear weapon. And you know use expenditure on arms and military everywhere every country to return we knew that. And then should we know.

We've been to prate countries or groups of groups. We could then he certainly of having a conflict when he should have equal relations with all people in the hood. Then he saw that this is worth a try to explain to them. He DID YOU CAN mean they agreed but in practice they didn't behave. But you've had continued longer could have so I think I made her second and I don't. Why did you decide to go ahead with the nuclear weapons free with just a nuclear free zone.