American Experience; Stonewall Uprising; Interview with Raymond Castro, 1 of 2

I would love it. Everyone quiet. And just you're going to look at Kate and I can't. Okay. Um, let's go back to love some of those pictures now. What was one of the jobs you had in terms of, uh, the photograph? Uh, being so camera shy, I love all those pictures. And, you know, uh, I've always been one to... Sorry, sorry, this is so far. All right. We've only had about three today. I don't know where it's not going to happen every two seconds.

Yeah. Like the ones we'd be posing like this, what was going on? Um, okay. Um, I had... I used to go to a warm-in memorial skating rink, uh, back before Donald Trump had his six, way back in the early... Um, I would say early part of the six, early part of the sixties. And this one photographer approached me and took me over to, uh, with his place, uh, the Horn and Harder Automat restaurant. And we had a hot cocoa and, you know, a piece of cake. And he said to me that he's a photographer and he's interested in people posing for a magazine called Young Physique. Would I have any problems with that? I said no. I said, I would like to do it. He said that I would give you all the pictures, including your graduation pictures, and no cause. You get the pictures and no cause. You get free advertising space. So I said, that sounds like a good marriage.

So we made an appointment to meet with his, um, studio. And we took all kinds of pictures. So, um, you know, um... How are they used? Um, they were used in a publication called Young Physique. And in turn, um, uh, uh, frontage was not allowed in those days. So everything had to be a back angle, or it would close on in different poses. So, um, I was very comfortable with that. And it was always, uh, you know, uh, something that I did enjoy. And I usually even take that, once I took that scrapbook to school with me. And before you know it, everybody behind me was looking into pictures that had no clue that somebody had taken my bag and passed it all over the, all over the class. So the teacher got wind of it and said, hey, bring that book up here. So when I turned around, she said, okay, this is no longer a science class. This is in high school. And now we're going to do an art class.

Then she mentioned that by lighting the muscle tone, um, you know, the, um... Just the subjects, the different angles. So, um, she said, do you, you know, she had asked me if I'm mine. I said, absolutely not. What was it, um, Physique? What kind of name? It was, um, like, shy of, uh, I would say, I wouldn't say kiddie porn. But it was, you know, just young people, uh, posing with, uh, almost, almost sexual explicit, uh, content without showing any sex. It was, uh, like, clean, clean, young, uh, bodies, and well taken. So they wouldn't get, uh, it wouldn't be, like, how you say, uh, rated, or as child porn, or any kind of porn. So it was just basically art. Was it a gay magazine? Uh, I would consider it a gay magazine because all the, uh, they had a box,

a PO box number to get in touch with the, um, photographer. And then he, in turn, would send pictures of, of the subject being me, being myself, to these people who requested, uh, photographs. We had no videos, we had no, uh, you know, stuff like that, where you, they could actually view you that way. So I guess pictures was the way to go into those days, black and whites. And I treasure them because it was a part of my life that I did enjoy. And it's me, you know, so that's about it. I did some nude modeling in front of a class of, uh, high school students. Um, but that was kind of strange because, you know, you're up there with practically nothing, with nothing on except a little towel. And then you walk around and you look at what they see you as. It was kind of shocking. But hey, it, it was, uh, in the 70s, and $23 an hour was a lot of money. So I enjoyed that.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, sounds like you were comfortable with your sexuality or were you not? It was comfortable with my body and my sexuality. I've never had a problem being who I am. Uh, if you don't love yourself, then you can't love nobody else. So, you know, love yourself. You know, and I always have. So to, to not, not to express yourself. And, you know, not feel right about yourself, you'll never be happy. So all I say is, be happy. Be yourself. And that's always been my motto, uh, since I could remember. How did you feel in the village? Can you talk a little bit about, um, whether you spent time in the village in the 60s? And what you felt about it? Well, I knew a lot of kids, uh, from, uh, fashion and design. And they always used to like to go hang out at the village. So I would go with them.

And they would cruise the streets. I mean, there were still high school kids. So, you know, we would cruise the streets and, um, socialize in the streets. Some of them went too young to go into bars. So they just wanted to go and, you know, meet, uh, or just hang out in the village. So, you know, there was a bar called the Stonewall, which, uh, was frequented by a lot of gays. And it was practically all the gays. And I felt very comfortable going in there. This place here was like, uh, you know, a place where you could be comfortable being yourself. Now, uh, you know, the whole Christopher Street, you know, you'd walk from 6th Avenue all the way to, uh, the end where they had the overhead pass of the West Side Highway. So the whole area was, uh, kind of attractive to, uh, myself as well as my friends in the 60s, uh, late 60s, middle 60s. So it was, it was a place to actually meet your own kind and hang out with your own kind,

which was, um, refreshing to know that you weren't alone. As many people, you know, in, in small areas, have a problem meeting other people. And they think this, there's something wrong with them because they're different. So here, we were all the same. And that, that was, that was comforting. Did you ever go to, do you know about the trucks, do you ever meet people? They're not about trucks, sure. I knew about the trucks. If you wanted to get, if you wanted to get, uh, your wallet's taken out of your pockets, while people were walking by you, uh, it was always kind of, you know, I'd go in there. And I would look and I would just cringe because, you know, people would start touching me. And hello, what are you doing there if you don't want to be touched? So, but I was more or less seen what was going on. Uh, I was never one for that kind of scene, but I was just curious. Uh, I didn't want to participate because that to me, number one, it was so packed. I mean, never packed.

And it was also dangerous. I mean, you didn't know who was next to you. So I always kept in my distance and it was not my scene. I'd rather walk to streets and, you know, socialize, go into a bar, have a drink, talk to people. Um, no, I was not, that was not my scene, the truck's ups. When you said packed, packed, doing what? Packed, I mean, it was wall-to-wall people. Pitch time square and, and knew your zeve, okay? I mean, I'm talking like Sardines. And they were, uh, actively, actively engaged in all kinds of sex. And I mean, you could actually smell, smell the sex. I mean, the sweat, even if it was winter, it didn't matter. That place of jam packed. And the summertime, it was even worse. And then you had to worry about the police coming around and raiding the place. So I said, no, no, no, that's not for me. I've never been that promiscuous. Uh, again, you know, you, you don't, you never know if you're, you're, uh, you're gonna walk out with your wallet or somebody's gonna do something to you. It was never for me.

So if the truck's more for you, talk about the bars. What was the alternative? Well, the alternative was the bar. And, uh, and being in there, listen to the music, watching people dance. And, you know, just having a good time. And most of the times, you know, you had a good time. The only time you had to hold back, hold back was when you had the lights turned on. And you knew the cups were coming in. So everybody had to separate and grip their drink. And just be cool, not, you know, no activity of dancing, holding hands or anything because that's what they were looking for, any excuse to try to bust the place. So the light being on a small light, it wasn't a big bright light. But it was a big enough that, you know, you would know the cups are coming. So that's the way, you know, we had, we had, uh, our signal. All the bars that I had frequented, even here around the WS-70s. Um, I think with like 78th Street, there was another bar in a side street. In general, okay, the general typical raid.

Did you get arrested or did you disappear in the streets? What did you do? General Raid. Okay, well, when, uh, you referring to when the night that the storm wall got raided? No, normal raid before the storm. Okay, uh, normal raid, I don't recall any bars ever getting raided. Uh, because I think warnings, uh, they always paid the place off. These gay bars, they always paid the cups off. Okay, whether it was the sergeant, whether it was, uh, uh, the higher-ups in, in the gay bars. Some of them weren't even allowed to sell liquor. They were called juice bars. Okay? But even so, it was a gathering place. And, and, you know, you had to knock on the door, they look at you, they let you in. You had to pay maybe, uh, two dollars for a small glass of juice. And, and that was the, the, the extent of the liquor there. What was, what was going into the storm wall? I didn't get to pay and did somebody decide, you have ID? Well, in the storm wall, I think you, you probably paid a two dollar admission to go in. They gave you a ticket.

You got a watered down drink. And, uh, you know, you, it was like a minimum. So, you know, I don't recall exactly, you know, what the minimum was. But I know you had to pay something to go in there and they gave you the ticket. You gave it to the bartender and you did get it, you got a drink. Um, again, you know, they let X amount of people in. They will look through the door and let you in. They asked you for ID. You show it to them. And then they had this long, long bar, uh, as you entered. And, you went to the left of that and there was a big room with a jukebox and slate floors. Uh, like a Vermont slate. Uh, the music was always in a jukebox. And they had the, the best Motown hits and all those kind of hits that you want to. Stevie Wonder, I never forget the night of the raid. Stevie Wonder was playing. And you had these drag queens near the bar, you know, dancing. And, um, some of them, you can tell they were drag queens because it was so beautiful and so feminine. That you could never tell they were, they were a guy.

So, that night. We'll have you wait. You can ask your question. Just before we get to that night, was it dark bar, light bar with a cleaning dirty? Well, it wasn't, it wasn't a light bar. None of these bars were light. And none of them were really clean. You know, they were just there for the money. For the money that, uh, these mafia guys were making, hand over fists, you know, uh, they. Hold on. Just over the edge of the example. Sorry about that. Not a problem. Not a problem. Of course, it was quiet for hours today and now it's. Yeah. I mean, uh, who's, who's, who's zoom in? Who is the stone one? Who's making the money? Who's making out your best? Well, everybody was making out.

Uh, the gaze had a place to go and meet other gaze and, uh, have a place where they felt comfortable. The bartenders were making money. The mafia was making money. The lieutenants and all these other people in, in government and policy, politicians, they were making money. They were getting all kinds of, uh, uh, graph, uh, peyola or cola, what you want. They were all getting kickbacks. So every, it was a win-win situation for everybody. You know, in those days, it didn't matter. Uh, I mean, there wasn't, it wasn't a drug thing in those days that I could remember. I'm sure drugs have been around. No, uh, it was mostly, uh, you know, just the drinking. Well, you, but, by the way, just before we get more on the streets, were you afraid of cops? I was never afraid of the cops in the street because, uh, I was not an obvious person. I was not a flaunting my, uh, homosexuality in front of anybody.

I wasn't holding hands. I wasn't looking to, uh, incite any kind of trouble with the police. Never, uh, it would never occur to me to even try to, you know, have any kind of confrontation with them because you don't, you don't want to be, uh, you know, pushed or, uh, or arrested for any stupid reason. And I never, uh, I never had any problems with the police on the outside of the place. I never had any problems with anybody anywhere until that night, where, uh, everything just blew out of, you know, just, the bottom fell out. And, uh, everything was like... Hold on, please. Yeah, so, okay, make sure you do this. You're good. Okay. Um, yeah, let's talk about that night. What, what was the, what time were you headed over? What kind of night were you expecting?

Where were you going? Uh, I was, it was a, um, I'm sure it was like a, like a Friday night where, you know, it was typical Friday, Saturday night. I don't remember exactly what day it was. All I know is that, uh, I happened to be going through the Stonewall with a couple of friends and we went in. It was, it was, it was, it was a lot of people there. A lot of people. And then the next thing, you know, um, you know, the, the bar, the bar itself, the light, we weren't in the back, the back of the room in the, in the back bar where the slate floor is. And the lights went on. So everybody stopped what they were doing. Because not the, the police started coming in, uh, raiding the bar. For, no, I mean, they're, oh, the bar was always, always warned when a raid was going to happen. Okay? Or, or something to that, uh, police activities was going to go on. So they were always prepared. This night, um, you know, the lights went on, but they didn't go on. Uh, we, we had no, we had no clue that it was going to be raided until that night.

When they pushed everybody like to the back room and slowly asking for ideas. Some people would let go. Uh, most of the people were, were gone. But then they had a patty wagon and they had a patty wagon in the front of the bar. Uh, parked on the side, uh, next to the sidewalk, uh, in front of the stone wall. So they decided to hold a few people in the bar very, very late. Meanwhile, there was crowds forming outside the stone wall, wanting to know what was going on. And the crowd got bigger as the night got longer. Uh, at that point, uh, I had, I had been, uh, I had been out of the stone wall. And I was with the crowds and I happened to see a friend of mine, a young fellow who had no idea. So I got a phony idea to try to go back in and give it to him so he can get out. Because he motioned me, you know, like, like, I want to, I want to out. So naturally, I try to help him.

So then I got pushed back in into the stone wall, uh, by these plain clothes cops. And they would not let me out. They didn't let anybody out. They were just holding us almost like in a hostage situation, where you, you don't know what's going to happen next. You're there, uh, there's, uh, there's actually, uh, fire bombs being thrown into the stone wall. There's, uh, police outside guarding the outside of the stone wall. They had, they had to run inside themselves for cover. Uh, money was being thrown at them, uh, coins. In, in other words, like to say, you didn't get paid off. He has your pay, your, your payment. And then, uh, it just escalated from there. Uh, the riots in the streets were getting pretty, uh, I should say the crowd in the street was not going to back down. And I'm not talking about young people. I'm talking about all ages. You know, uh, a man is telling, I won't take it anymore. Something along that line. Well, this is the way it escalated. Well, at that point, I believe that, uh, they, uh, kept us there so long to try to make it look like there was underage drinking.

And it was very, very late at night, and we were disturbing the peace. So finally when, uh, they started, uh, taking me out, arm and arm up to the patty wagon. Um, I resisted a rest. And the more I resisted a rest when I was in the, in front of the patty wagon, I would, in, just pass the doors in the stone wall on the sidewalk. I jumped up by the patty wagon entrance, which was, uh, like opposite of the driver's side. I jumped up and I put, uh, one foot on one side, one foot on the other. And I sprung back knocking the two arresting officers. Uh, well, they weren't arresting officers. They were escorting officers. I should say knocking to the ground. And then I had four more policemen join in. They left their posts on the back of the patty wagon. And somebody came and opened it. And a whole bunch of people were in the patty wagon ran out. So when they saw me fighting with the police, that inside them more.

They, they took the bully, a bully stick, a bully club. And they stuck in between my legs to trip me to drag me into the patty wagon. At that point, my adrenaline was so, uh, pumped up. They put the handcuffs behind me. I wasn't the patty wagon with the mafia guys. And they said to me, don't worry kid, you're going to be all right. Don't worry about anything. Everything's going to be fine. So when I got to the police station, my handcuffs were no longer behind me. I had slipped them underneath my feet and I put them in front of me. Uh, here I am in a lineup with everybody that wasn't a patty wagon. I think it was short-right. I think it was a fixed pricing. And there's the guy with the gold badge. And looking at me, what, and what kind of animal are you? It took five of my men to get you down. I wanted to reply, you called those men. But I knew enough to keep my mouth shut and not say a word. All I did was, because I was still not over my adrenaline rush. Uh, I knew that if I made some kind of remark,

there would take me in the back room with the rubber hose and really give it to you. So I knew, you know when to shut up. You know, especially in the way that that night was happening. Uh, I had also observed way before I got arrested, you know, uh, prisoners being taken away from police on Sheridan Square right near the subway. They had, uh, they were throwing garbage cans, bricks, fire bombs, everything at the police. They were outnumbered. And, uh, I know it was almost like a vigilante kind of, uh, a riot when you had a police holding onto a, uh, trying to make an arrest. And you had, uh, the gays pulling, pulling the, the, the gays back. And actually taking back the prisoners for a lack of a better word. They were taking back, you know, defending our own. So, you know, I can't, I, I say it was a night where Mayor Wagner was running for election and his scheme to try to clean up the city, quote unquote, give the city back to the people,

clean the city, backfire it. And I am proud to say that, you know, um, when I was arrested, uh, I was part of it. I got told by a Hispanic, uh, playing clothes, policemen. Don't worry about it. You're going to go before the judge weekend, uh, weekend court. We're going to slap you in the wrist. You're going to go home, no problem. It's, it's, it's nothing. I said, all right, I'll do that. So he says, fine. So he walks me up to the judge's weekend court. And I said, your honor, not guilty. My Miranda rights were not, uh, given to me. I had no arresting officer. I have no clue why I'm here. So we made an appointment to, um, meet, you know, make a court appearance. And I had a lesbian that was also arrested with me that night. She went with me. We had the same lawyer. And the case was dismissed. The case was dismissed.

Actually, I think the law, if I'm not mistaken, the, um, judge at times that, uh, you were, you were, and I don't think he used the word incarcerated. I think he said, uh, you were, uh, arrested. And you, if you have anything, anything appearance, uh, taken from you, you will get them back. Uh, if you will care to sue the city for false imprisonment, uh, you can do that. So in my reply with, I just want to get out of here and be done with. Did you ever go back to school? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that week. What happened? Uh, I don't know if I went, I don't recall going back that week because I used to work, uh, as a baker. And, uh, my hours were very, you know, early in the morning. Can I ask a question? Did you, during your ride, when your adrenaline was going, were you ever scared for your life? You don't have time. You don't have time to think. You know, you, you act on impulse. Just like, you know, um, if you, if you see somebody being, uh, maybe even being run by a car, you know, you try to push them out of the way.

You don't have time to think. So it wasn't something that I had planned to be, uh, be there. It just happened. And, you know, uh, I think that's the best way to, you know, react, uh, impulse. It's just almost like, you know, you go shopping. I wasn't looking for that shirt, but, ooh, it, you know, it looks good. I'll buy it. Did you ever think it was going to be sort of a turning point in history? I never, ever gave it a point, uh, you know, a thought of it being a turning point. Uh, all I know is that, you know, uh, enough was enough. And, you know, you had to, you had to fight for your rights. I fought for everything I have of the own gotten. So, you know, to me, fighting back was never a problem. So this was actually having sent that what happened happened. And you, you don't look, you don't, you don't look back. You just look forward.

And I'm very happy to say that, you know, whatever happened that night, I was part of it because, you know, you don't think you just act. Now, you may have been a fire, you know, for it didn't just, I mean, I don't mean as an aggressive fighter, but that you've fought for things in your life. But maybe some of those other people hadn't. Did you feel a sense of, like, community with other gay people? That was really you? Were you looked around? Well, you know, uh, Gays have always been known to be a feminine, uh, be scary cats, uh, get taken advantage of, get, uh, beaten up, and get robbed. And I, I never felt that way. I never felt the fear, uh, growing up in Spanish Harlem, growing up in Black Harlem here in New York City. Uh, I just, I just thought that, you know, uh, there was a time for change. And I think that, you know, what had happened that night. You know, I mean, I never associated myself with really anybody in particular.

I had all kinds of friends. I had feminine friends. I had friends that weren't feminine. I had friends that looked straight. I had married, married friends, straight friends. You know, it was a melting pot. A friend's. But what about that night when you saw all these people? I thought that, you know, um, the night that I saw all those people, I thought it was fantastic, because it was bringing a crowd of people that had been pushed around, stepped on, slapped, slapped, slapped over, spit upon, taking advantage for all political reasons, uh, knocking their house down and building their own. So at that point, I just thought that, you know, it's time. It's time. And I was so happy to see that people were fighting back because you don't, you know, it was a one-shot deal. I mean, it could have been any bar that, that happened that night. But it just happened to be location, location, location. That was a perfect spot where

everybody that used to hang out in the village that weekend was there. And it could have been there by the time. The only one who wasn't there was more cops because they were under, they were undermanned. So that was a good thing. Did they know what was going to hit them in the house? They didn't know, I mean, they hit them like a ton of bricks and literally a ton of bricks. There was construction site, not far away. And a lot of those bricks made it to the police. When the patty wagon was being driven away, a lot of those bricks were thrown at the patty wagon. Ties was slashed on police cars to slow them down. It was like, you know, I'm not going to take any more. That kind of atmosphere. And it just went on all night long. I mean, with the fire, garbage cans, there was garbage cans being lit up on fire and being thrown at the police, coins, bricks. They never expected that. Never in a million years. So it was a good thing that they were under man and under staff, you know,

and we were over staffed. But to the point where it worked on our favor that night, it was just, you had to be there. You had to be there to experience it. I mean, just reading about it, telling somebody else about it, it's not the same. You know, you have to experience it. And that was an experience which, you know, it will last your lifetime. It was 40 years ago. And I could remember like it was yesterday. Many people that I used to know then, I don't see them anymore. I don't hear from them because everybody just moves on. I've lost a lot of friends to AIDS and different medical reasons. But, you know, a lot of young people today don't know, do not know the doors that were opened that night for them. And, you know, I'm sure that a lot of them will find out through films, through plays,

through document, documentaries. So I just say that I'm just glad I was part of it. Because I did help open a lot of doors. And to this day, I feel really good about that part of history. Did you see it? Did you hear any chance? Do you remember any chance? Any chance? I don't recall any chance, because, like I said, you know, I don't... Parking meter? You were on the inside. I wasn't inside for a long time before they finally got me out. Before it all broke loose. It all held broke loose. And then I was arrested. I was in the precinct. So I really didn't get a chance to see much of that. And from the inside, what were you seeing? Did you ever see, like, lighter fluids or anything? Was there any fire on the inside? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Incendiary devices were being thrown in. I don't remember if there were...

I don't think there were a lot of tough cocktails. But it was just fire. Being thrown in when the doors got open. There was fire inside the place. I remember that. And it was being put out really quick. I mean, the place never caught on fire. But it was... It was basically thrown in the place that was in front of the place when they had to take cover. They had gone inside for their lives. Were you... Were the cops inside with you? We had plain, closed police there. We had a uniform cops there. Oh, yeah. They were in there. Were they shouting orders? Did you hear anything? They really weren't shouting any kind of orders to anybody. They just told everybody to stay put. You know, don't worry about it. They didn't give it any information. You couldn't talk to them. You couldn't reason with them. They wouldn't tell you anything. It was like, you know, you're there. Keep it much shut. Keep calm. There is nothing to worry about. Just stay put. You couldn't get anything out of them.

Anything. It was just like, you know, your hostage. Your hostage. And that's the only way I could put it. Because that's what I was. For that period of time. We're the doors, actually. Yeah.