American Experience; Stonewall Uprising; Interview with Raymond Castro, 2 of 2

I think the stash of Hoverdala, you tell me right off where it'd be cool, like I have a thing. That's sort of a nice part of the story, because you've got feeling of tension, that you're waiting it. It felt like time was passing very slowly. Time wasn't moving at all. Okay, I'll look on it. You can answer that. And we will give you just a chance to tell a longer story. Just along with what David is saying is, can you just tell us, like, from maybe that pushed in there. Until they took you out to the patio, like, if you just walked through, like, what you saw happened, and now it fell. And, you know, I think only you remember, because, you know, I'm sure once you led to another. Telling me, I guess, was it a blur?

How was the experience, like, being when you were trapped in there, and you said you felt like a hostage. What were, like, the stages, do you remember? And did the time go quickly or slowly? Well, the time did not move. It was like, you know, the clock stood still. You're in an animated stage where, you know, nothing moves. It was like everything in slow motion. You wait for the time to go by, you want it to be over with. You're not getting any answers from anybody. You're not sure what was going to happen next. You know, you're just wondering what's going to happen next. So, you know, nobody's answering any questions. You can't ask any questions. The people that were running the bar, they were also in the back room of the Stonewall, where the Judebox was. And they had also no mention.

You know, you come down, everything's going to be fine. Nobody's going to hurt you, just relax. Everything's going to be fine. Just do what they tell you, and, you know, everything's going to be fine. So, they assured me that nothing was going to happen, as far as, you know, being abused in any way. It just felt that it was so long being there. Time did not move. Time did not move. And they made you wait longer. Then it seemed longer. The weight seemed a lot longer than it actually was. But it still was too long. What kind of sounds did you hear coming in from the outside? I heard a lot of pigs go home, something along that line. I heard sounds of coins being thrown at the police. Just, you know, let them go, let them go. You know, that part is not too clear for me.

But I do remember, you know, a lot of chance of, you know, pigs, pigs, pigs, and coins being thrown at them. You know, you can hear the coins hitting the concrete. I mean, there were nickels, quarters, whatever they had, they were throwing at the police. You know, just let them know that this is your payback, your payola. Other than that, I don't recall much of a chance. You know, they have you back there close up. You really don't hear much, but you could hear screaming outside. You know, a lot of noise from the protesters. And it was a good sound. It was a real good sound to know that, you know, you had a lot of people out there pulling for you. And then what did you see, when you're inside, was there front doors, right? Yes. Can you tell me about the front door? I'll talk to you again. It's a little confusing to answer, but can you see anybody, the door break in at any point?

Did you see anything come through the doors? What I had noticed, when I had, you know, I could walk around. They weren't telling me, stay put. I could walk around the back of the bar. I could walk up to the, the entrance, the back, where the back of the bar was. And when the front doors would be open, you'd do it to let a higher, one of these cups of the gold badges or a plain closed cup. They would have to open the doors. And I could see from the outside, you know, I could see the crowd. I could see, you know, correction. Not so much the crowd because they had the paddy wagon there. So you really couldn't see the crowd, but you could hear them. And occasionally, anytime that door opened, somebody would throw something in as the cops were coming in. So, you know, it was like something that, like I said before, something you had to experience. There wasn't, there wasn't much visual going out that door. I mean, it was like a long, long bar, and here you are at the back.

And you could see fire being thrown in. You could see, you know, somehow... Was there a hose that was simply trying to hose something? I don't recall the hose being used either for a fire or on anybody. The only hose that I remember is that if I didn't behave, I was going to get the hose at the precinct. So that's the only hose that, you know, sticks in my mind. I don't recall any hoses. A lot of that stuff, you know, it's hard to think back. I mean, it's been 40 years, but, you know, you remember bits and pieces. Maybe not in the order that I am saying it, but pretty close. And did it feel like somehow, like... Did you feel a sense of, like, the streets were yours? I mean, did it feel like you're fighting for something? I didn't feel like the streets were mine because I wasn't, I didn't have that freedom. But I knew that the street, the town of the city was like almost like taking it back. It was a good feeling of knowing that it was being taken back.

The earlier part of the ride when I was on the outside, yes, it felt great. It felt great to see the guys taking banning together, young, old, and indifferent. It didn't matter because too many years, too many years, humiliation, threats of losing your job, because you come out. And people know you were homosexual. It was taboo, taboo. Something that, you know, your parents wanted you to get married just for the sake of, you know, not causing disgrace to the family. But at this point, when everybody started fighting back and taking back what rightfully belongs to them equal rights, it felt great. It felt great. And it's an amazing feeling to know that you're fighting for something you believe in. No more way you could think that because your parents say shock therapy is going to straighten you out. No, there's no such thing.

You've born that way. I believe you've born that way. Is that something you choose? Because no parent wants the child to be gay. No child wants to be gay. But it's unfortunate, but you know what? You've got to be happy with who you are. And that night we were all happy with who we were. And loud and proud. And so this day I say the same thing loud and proud. Amazing feeling. Did you ever go to any of the marches that are honoring Stonewall? No, because I had moved from the city out to Long Island in New York. And then I moved to Florida. But I have gone to the same peak, gay pride parades. I've gone to the Tampa gay pride parade. And every year it seemed like it gets bigger and better. And more people are being more proud. And a lot of businesses are displaying their gay flag outside either gay friendly or gay owned. The same thing when you go on a cruise in the Caribbean.

You go to St. Thomas and there's a gay flag there. So that night it was like a crack of light. It was like a chick, a baby chick in an egg. And just bursting it out and feeling free to be able to walk and pack and run and feel that you're not in that cocoon anymore. You're in that shell anymore. It was like breaking out. It was an amazing feeling. And to this day, that feeling does not go away. More people and more people and more people are expressing themselves the way they should. I don't believe in showing certain infections in certain groups. But if you want to be respected, you have to show respect. Give it and earn it.

And that night, it was just like bursting out of cocoon, just being free. It was an amazing feeling. When you look at your, I saw a grade school picture. Yeah. What it felt at that time, you know, have your picture taken with your classmates. What was the norm back then? What was the science back then of you? Okay, that was a junior high school picture. And society expected you to, you know, grow up, get married, have kids. Which is what a lot of people did to satisfy their parents. Later on, find out that they've been living a lie after they have kids. They lie to their wives. They lie to their family. And then they wind up abandoning their family and then being themselves. I didn't, I never believed in that. I never believed in that, you know, you always had to be yourself.

And there's a price to pay for not? Yes, the price to pay, like for being yourself? No, for not being yourself. Oh, yes, absolutely. Suicide, suicide, alcoholism, rejection from a lot of people that know you. That know you're gay, you don't want, you're not being true to yourself. And it's tormenting. It eats you up inside. It eats you up inside, not being comfortable with yourself. I have one, yep, mind your thing. This is going back when you're inside the bar. Yeah. You said yourself fire coming in. And I was like, can you describe exactly what you saw? Because it's not clear you're going to take fire coming in. That means a lot of different things to me. Well, yeah. The night that I was, the night that I was at the Stonewall, I had this, I was leaning towards the back of the bar as far as back of that can be.

I mean, I had seen like trash, trash. I don't know what kind of trash it was, but it was being thrown in lit up. It was fire. I don't recall if it was tied, it was a bundle of newspapers. I don't recall if it was a bottle thrown in with a fire attached to it. But I do recall that there was fire being thrown into the bar at the police. This was, it wasn't much fire, but it was enough to shake them up and know that the people outside were doing everything they could within their power to make it miserable for the people who got into front doors. It's the way they had to actually run in and protect themselves from being injured. And, you know, it's something that you don't forget. You don't forget that. It wasn't, like I said, it wasn't much fire, but it was enough to scare them. That's very scary.

Were you there with three or four people you're talking about a bar fall? Okay. When you talk about people on the outside. On the inside, there had to be the amount of people that were inside. I believe it could have been as low as 13 because I remember 13 were arrested in an article. I said 13 were arrested that night. And I believe I was one of the 13 that was in there, along with the Mafia people, the drag queens, and a few other gay people that were inside a paddy wagon. So the number 13 might be unlucky for some people, but I think that night it was lucky for everybody. As far as the outside goes, I have no clue how many people were outside, but it seemed like hundreds, hundreds, which was something like a good, you know, like a good, I want you to say, the Calvary just came and is going to protect us.

It was huge. I mean, the amount of people you couldn't count, you couldn't count. There was no way you could count. Because there wasn't just gays. There was a lot of straight people sympathetic to the cause that we were going through. Friends, I would even say family. Because, you know, if you're openly gay and your family accepts you, they're going to stand by you no matter what. But I can't say it was just gays. I think it was a conglomerate of a bunch of people all standing together for the same cause, which I can say that has paid off. Calvary is great, great. I don't think it's a huge deal to come in from, but I think we got... I think it's a totally different thing to come back to. Suggestion on it? You can read it. When I was in the bar before I got rated early upon that evening, Stevie Wonder, the record, was pretty popular.

And there was these two young drag queen that looked like... they looked like Barbie dolls. They were so beautiful and angelic to put it. They were so plain. They weren't like overdone. They were very simple, but very pretty. And they were dancing next to the jukebox at Stevie Wonder, I think it was called... If I remember the song correctly, it was... I can't think of the name now, but it was... it wasn't Stevie... It was little Stevie Wonder in those days. Not Stevie Wonder like we know him today. It had the harmonica. The sound was really smooth and easy to dance with. They were snapping their fingers and just... Not dancing while, but just moving to the beat of the songs. This was before the lights went on and they started rating the place. When the lights go on, what are we talking about?

It's like an empty bulb hanging on a piece of wire. It's not a lamp. It's just a light. It's a very cheap light hanging on a piece of wire up to the ceiling in a dingy lit room. And if that light goes on, you know, to stop whatever you're doing and separate. This was the clue that something wasn't right at all gay bars. It didn't matter, you know, Stonewall otherwise. This was our signal. Stop, you know, don't, you know, behave because the cops are here. Did the Stonewall have a different feel from other bars of reason you liked it? It's not that it had a different feel. It's that, you know, you met more people there. To have a good time, to socialize. And, you know, you felt comfortable. Some bars were, you know, had the leather. Some were into that kind of stuff. Some of them were just drinking bars.

This is a bar that, you know, accepted everybody. Young, young gays, old gays, lesbians, transgender. They had, you know, it was a place where everybody could feel comfortable. So, naturally, everybody went there. It wasn't a wild, it wasn't a wild place, but it was a fun place. A place where you could be, you know, go for a drink, feel relaxed, and socialize. Or pick up a number or two and just take them home. You know, it was the, it was a fun place. Did people dance on the bar? Supposedly, yes, at times they had like a go-go dancer up on top of the bar. But naturally, you know, it was with like a disco music. And they would have their shorts on. And people would go up and, you know, just, you know, put money in their shorts, but they were not out of touch, no touching. Yes, occasionally they would have dancers up on top of the bar towards the back of the bar, not the front.

Did you ever see like the dirty water tub? Did you know how they clean glasses? Did it worry you? You never give that a thought because see, you don't see that. The counters in front of you and those glasses are underneath there. You know, so you don't know what you're getting. You know, it wasn't like they had plastic cups. Everything, you know, they just wash it and just put it there. So, you never know how dirty it was. Actually, you never even know how dirty the bathrooms were until, you know, you probably get a flash bag and say, my God, that urinal was just a big trough. You know, it's just nasty. But you could go from like from one bathroom, from the bathroom, actually to two of the rooms with almost like connecting. And actually, you know, you'd go there and you use a urinal and you'd make a little corner of the eye, look to the next person. And you'd say, a big boy or, you know, just observe the side. And then you, you know, naturally there was, you couldn't do anything. You couldn't touch anybody.

They had a black person there, like handing it, you know, he worked on tips. So, he was like a, what do you call an officer? No, he was a fellow who was working there for two handing out towels. Or maybe he would hand you some cologne or something. He was like a valet or, you know, somebody who was there, naturally, he was there mainly to make sure that nothing was happening. Which, you know, you can't blame the owners of the bar because if you get a plane close cop to go in there and somebody touches him, you know. Now, you know, the whole place is doomed, including yourself. So, you know, entrapment, entrapment was very big, very, very big in that time. Much more so than today. Today, you still have to worry about being entrapped. Because there is, there, it still goes on. It still goes on.

Okay. Mayerland, you can quickly do it. Okay. Just, can you give me just a little word on what was going on at the time with the mayor? I think it was Mayor Wagner. I think it was Mayor Wagner. Lindsay was later. Okay. I think Lindsay was later. Okay. So, what was Wagner trying to do at the city? Wagner always had the idea. I think he ran for a couple of turns. If I'm not mistaken. If my memory serves me right. I think he ran for two terms. But the, I think it was the second turn that he was running for office. That he wanted to clean up the city and clean up the city. That meant getting rid of all the fags for lack of a better word. Because that's what they called us. Okay. It wasn't gays or homos. It was homos and fags. Okay. Let's clean up the homos. Let's clean up the fag. I mean, didn't say let's clean up the lesbians. Excuse me. They wanted to clean up the city and give it back to the people. And this was their rendition, their version of clean up the city. Rating the gate bars and locking up gays.

That was, you know, there was no other way to put it. In Trapman. Did it happen anywhere else besides in the bars? Sorry. Excuse me. No more almost done. Okay. Water? Okay. Yeah. In Trapman, in Trapman would happen, basically, New York City subways, parks, public bathrooms, you name it. It didn't matter. Because in Trapman, you know, they actually look to get you, have you arrested. And many times people, you know, looking for a thrill. Hello. If you know, you're, you're seeking a thrill. Why have the thrill there? So naturally you get careless. You fall for it. And the next thing you know, you have silver bracelets on both arms. It's something that it was very common. I don't know if it's gotten less today. But as far as I'm concerned, it still goes on.

And people have to watch this step. You don't want to be a victim. I mean, we've been victims long enough. You don't have to, you know, go any further. And, you know, it's not just gays. It's married men that get entrapped. Because they're seeking a little side thrill from their spouse. I mean, it goes on all the time. So in Trapman, it really is a big part of what they do to people. I think we're good. I do too. One suggestion. You said you know, like kids from fashion and design, right? Yeah. I see me with fashion and design high school. Yeah. I think that may not be clear to the viewers. I think we're not going to be having that detail in the background. To precise, I think, for the amount of space we have. Okay. I think we need to have about 20 seconds of silence to catch the room. We have to record the room with no one talking. Okay.

Okay. Okay.