Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ton-That Thien, 1981

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Transcript

Capture by the Communists at the Tet Offensive

SR - 2601.

Ton-That Thien.

This is Vietnam Project. SR #2601, Take 602, Scene 2, Take 1, Ton-That

Thien.

Interviewer:

Okay?

Yeah.

Okay. Could you just tell the story as it unfolded?

Tiny bit more forward, because you're hitting my, you're hitting the

chair next to...

Ton-That:

Well...ah...'68 was a very, eventful and memorable year for me

because...ah...I nearly got caught by the Communists in Hue and also I

lost my mother during that offensive. Now...ah...in previous years four

or five years before that, I always refrained from going to Hue because

my family home is outside the city, about two, three miles outside the

city, practically in the countryside, and there was too much risk

security-wise for...

Interviewer:

Okay, any time.

Okay, can you just take it from where you were saying about going back

to Hue for Tet.

Ton-That:

In ah several years before ah '68 and until '68, I

always...ah...refrained from the urge of going to Hue because...ah...my

family home is out of, outside of city, practically in the countryside,

and there was too much risk security-wise for someone like me. Ah...I

knew that the Communists didn't (chuckles) like me...ah...because I had

worked for President Diem and all that, but that year...ah...my father

was ah ill. There was a risk that he might die and it is part of our

customs that...ah...in such circumstances all the children should ah

visit his...ah... their father. That's what I did.

Ah. But then there was this truce which was...ah...announced to last

for seven days so I said to myself even if the Communists were

treacherous and start attacking right on twelve midnight on the last

day of truce and if I go to Hue on the 29th and the 30th... ahh...and

the 1st then leave back for Saigon the 2nd, I still have five days

before the communist attack but, of course, I was (chuckling) wrong.

The communists attack on the night, on the night of the last day of the

year, that the thirtieth of the Lunar year, so...ah...

No, on the first, I think on the first, not the 30th, the first. That

is New Year's Day. The night of New Year's Day. That's why on the next

day when...ah...I got ready to leave for the airport and...ah...got out

of the house and to the road, I was told by people coming back

from...ah...the city that the bridge leading to the city was occupied

by the Communists and so I got stuck. Ah...And...ah...also the

Communists on the hills...ah...across the ah field from my house and

they...ah...on the other side of the river. My house was on

the...ah...on the ah...on the riverside. And, then also...ah...up the

road. So, my house went right in the middle of communist

occupied...ah...area and...ah... there's nothing we could do but just

wait.

And...ah...the Communists came down from the hills. I think on

the...ah... ah...5th because was some fighting in the...ah...around the

city and the Communists were not sure whether the road was safe, but

when they were certain that the road was safe, they came down and

searched each house, went to check each house, and...ah...they came to

our house and they asked who's ah so-and-so. We were three. We supposed

to be three brothers, and according to the information, we were...ah...

all three directors; important people from Saigon.

And, the list was supplied, iron...ironically by the...ah...local...

ah...chief of village. That is, he's supposed to represent the National

Government, but...ah...well I didn't...ah...blame him for it. Probably

he was acting on a threat for his own life. So, I was...ah...and

another brother was there... ah...but my third brother was not there.

He was in Citadel with his...ah...ah...in-laws, and...ah...but they

didn't believe us. They, they kept searching for this third director,

and...ah...they did it for two or three days running. They came, keep

coming back and back and back and back. In the end, they didn't find

him.

Interrogation by the Communists

Ton-That:

So...ah...after the, that fir...first visit, they left. The next day

they came with armed troops and took us away into the hills where

they...ahh...what I thought was the headquarters...ah... was,

and...ah...we stayed there for a whole day, and then they asked

us...ah...just...ah...very perfunctory questions and sent it back.

Obviously, the people in charge were not high enough in the hierarchy,

so they told us to go back and two or three days after that, they took

us back into...into the hills again. And this time we had to wait ah

the whole after--, for the whole day until the afternoon, late

afternoon and...ah...obviously, someone from, ah, (cough) the North,

very well-dressed, you know, clean. Very well-dressed came and then

start interrogating.

So everyone as...ah...as...ah...you know had to write his...ah...

autobiography, that's a communist standard practice. So, we all did and

he just after the man called us, each in turn, to...ahh...interrogate

and then he took our ID certificate...ah...of card and...ah...he asked

me question. Now on the card...I must explain, on my card, my card

reads just like ah American green card or the Canadian Citizenship

card, and...ah...very small...ah...like this and...ah...about this

high. There's not much room in there to write everything. Now I was,

that card was...ah... delivered to me during President Diem's time when

I was... ah...press secretary of the presidency. But, because of course

the card was so small (chuckle) there was no room to write "of the

presidency" in there so what the, the only thing was written on there

is technical expert which was my technical administrative function in

the palace.

So, the...ah...the man asked me what is this technical expert and I

said... ah...I'm an expert in languages. I do translations and things

like that. And that...ah...(chuckle) and that end the interview, they

didn't ask any further questions. But, later, another man came and he

still more probably...ah... important because he's still better dressed

than the first one and he made a political speech.

And the first sentence he said and I remember it all my life and this

is why I left a full seven days before the Communists move into

Saigon...ah...in 1975, and that's why I told General Minh in April that

I going to leave because I escaped the Communists three times

and...I...I'm not going to try a fourth time. And, he said, you are all

guilty towards the revolution because you have lived in the Hue and

that is illegitimate that's the occupied area. So, no matter what you

do you are a criminal in regard to the revolution and people who forgot

that...ahhhh...and in 1975 had hope of... ah...cooperating with the

Communists and all that, made a big mistake in their lives because they

will always have a reason to accuse you and put you on the defensive or

out. But that...umm...for laters.

Now...ah...after that, they sent us back again, but this time they

said...ah... well we call you back and...ah...to give you assignments

so...ah in my mind I think this means big trouble because if they

assign you something, you cannot refuse. In fact, during the...ah...in

the...ah last trip to the headquarters, the headquarters...ah...the

local headquarters a student who...ah...was armed and was supposed to

be on their side and...ah...escorted us...ah... to the road and

he...ah...slowed down. I was the last in the file. he slowed down and

spoke very softly to me and said don't argue with them because they are

going to shoot you right away if you do. Which means that all the

people with guns and with the Communists were not on their side. So,

I...ah...didn't say anything; unless this I was asked questions.

I...ah...didn't answer. Then that was, that must have

been...ahhhh...the 8th or the 9th.

Ton-That:

...still more, probably important.

Interviewer:

The ones who came to search your house, who were they?

Ton-That:

Oh, they're locals, but they are [inaudible].

Pix 603.

Sound 2601. Scene 2. Take two. Hoyt.

(Everyone talking at the same time)

Interviewer:

OK, pick it up...Tell about the cadres.

Ton-That:

Well, the thing that I, that impressed me most and I, which I would

remember all my life was that in the late afternoon when this northern

cadre, well dressed in fatigue, perfectly clean and well-pressed, and

clean. No mud, nothing on it, and came to lecture us on the

revolution...ah...on, on the situation.

The first sentence that he said, you are all criminals in...ah...regard

to the revolution because you live in the Hue-controlled area, and that

I can never forget and that was to guide my action afterward because I

knew that no matter what you do, whether you have commit a crime; you

been in the army, police, civil service or not. The fact that you have

no lived in the forest makes you a criminal and the Communist was

always finding way of putting you in jail or accusing you...ah...as

they wish.

The Americans take Hue

Ton-That:

Now...ah...but that was at that day. Then, they sent us back, for the

next three days... ahh...Those people left, but, in the meantime, they

are in our home. Troops are coming in and out all the time and these

troops were, as you now know...ah...dressed in the northern uniform

with the famous hat, the famous so-called Ho Chi Minh

sandals...ahhhh...well-dressed and they talked to us freely and they

told us they were sent to...ah... occupy the city. There was to be a

big review, a victory parade and they had a special uniform for that.

Each of them has a special uniform that made for parade. But, all these

people are from the north, and they told us that ah we didn't have to

ask because we...ahhhh... recognize this hat, we recognize the northern

accent and... ah...when we asked them, they told us.

So...ah...there's no secret about that. So, the three days...ah...there

was fighting and nothing really happened. They must have sent us back

on the uh 8th, I think, 8th of a lunar year. And, then, we just start

to live through three or four very tense days. For some strange reason,

they didn't take away our radio. Ahh...Ahh...Radio set. So, we just

secretly listened and...ah...occasionally these boys would come in

and...ah...are you listening to radio? We were listening (chuckle) to

the BBC at the time. So, we had to switch to something else

immediately. But, through the BBC then we learned that the

reinforcement would come from the south, that the American Marines have

landed in Hue that is downtown in the...ahhhh...near the bridge.

Everyone knows about that...ah...area, and just, we just wait and

prayed...and...ah...that the companies wouldn't take us away in that

time. And, for some reason, they, they didn't. either they were too

busy or for...ahhhh...some other reason, I...I...I don't

know...Ah...it, but the fact is that...ah...on the 12th, I think, of

the lunar year the...ah...Marines rushed from, arrive at the railway

station which is about a mile, a mile-and-a-half from our home, and the

next morning, this is one of the surprising thing about American

fighting tactics, they simply run one stretch from that bridge to our

home. That is about half, one-and-a-half miles, and... ah...I found out

afterwards that...ah...they did so because there was a...there was fire

by a mortar, and when they came into my home in the back yard

and...ah...we were in the house, and...ah...they came in the back

and...ah...we were afraid they would...sh...they would, they would

shoot.

So, I came out and all the time I said don't shoot, don't shoot, don't

shoot all the time. And, then I found these Marines very tense, you

know, the things on the gadget. And so, they said, they said "VC

where's the VC?" And then... ah...I was very cool at that time. I said

let me talk to your skipper. Call your skipper and then...ah...the

little man came. He said where's the VC, and I said the VC is gone but

my family's th...are there. I said, I beck...everyone to come out. So,

everyone came out and they said VC, they...they fire from here. But, I

show them the...ah...the hatch. You know they always...the Viet Cong

practice us to cut retreat path...Ah...and I say, you see the, the

hatch Viet Cong cut this and, for their retreat.

But, the...the lieutenant insist and they say that we were far from

here. Oh, I said, I understand now. The Viet Cong had a long tube

and...ah...they occupy the house across the street, so go and check

there. So he went and checked and...ah...of course the Viet Cong had

start a mortar position there. So, when he came back, it's all right,

it's just, they relaxed. Ahh...And then...ah...I told the...ahhhh...the

lieutenant that I had to get out. My brother too. And he said, umm,

well, we have a jeep. We can uh take you out...ah...but

just...ah...don't worry. Ahhhh...you could sl...sleep there. I say I'm

not going to sleep here because you're going to pull out and the Viet

Cong's coming back tonight. There's no doubt about that so I insist so

much, they we... there's room for one. I said there's also my brother

and my sister-in-law, they have to...So, in the end they took us, all

three...ahh...down to the...ah...to the...ah...to the station, the

radio station.

Interviewer:

Cut for a second?

You want to cut for a second?

South Vietnam and the American press

Interviewer:

What was Diem's-- are you rolling?

Ton-That:

No, not 1961. I was there in '63 because I left in '69. I...I, I was in

close touch with Mr. Nhu but...and the government, I was not there in

'61.

Interviewer:

What mistakes did Diem make? You were there in the 1963 Buddhist

crisis. What mistakes did Diem make during the 1963 Buddhist crisis?

Ton-That:

Well, I think the mistake made by Diem all through these years as by

all the other Vietnamese politicians is never to have understood what,

as my nephew say, what makes America tick. They did not understand

America at all. The constitution structure, the importance of the

press, opinion and all that. They never under...not...not one single

Vietnamese, to my knowledge has understood that part, and from there,

they made all kinds of mistakes. You see, ignoring, ignoring the

importance of opinion in the American political process.

Interviewer:

Could you, could you think of some example or an anecdote that

illustrates this point?

Ton-That:

Well, I can think of...let's see...ah...the typical case of Dr. Dan.

When Dr. Dan was ejected from the national assembly in '59, I was still

there. (Coughs) I was still press secretary to President Diem. I was

disturbed. I was very disturbed. I, so, I went in...ah...I first saw

Mr. Diem...

Interviewer:

I'm sorry you're going to go into a story that will be way too

complicated for us to tell.

Can we cut just a minute?

Just cut a second.

Get into that element. For example, would you refer to her statements,

such as, describe you know, referring to the burning monks as

barbecues, what did you do to try to ah...

Ton-That:

Well, since you mention this when she...ahh...

Interviewer:

Would you mention her name because...

Ton-That:

Mme. Nhu, Nhu that is, President Diem's ahh...brother, sister-in-law.

Now ah this (chuckle) barbecue, that you mention, interests me

because...

Interviewer:

No, you got to do it over again. I'm not in the show.

Ton-That:

Huh...I was...interested in this so-called barbecue story. Mme. Nhu say

that her kids pick it up in...the... ahh... what you call it, caf鮀

People were talking about barbecue. The kinds brought that word home

and...ah...she liked that. But, when she used...ah...this word in a

telegram sent to ah...I think, the New York Times...ah... and she want

me to send that telegram through my office... ah...because I had

facilities for that, I refused. I said this is not the right thing to

do and...ah...she got it sent by the Ministry of Information

afterwards.

But, that's one...one part of it. Mme. Nhu is a spoiled child, as you

like, and...ah...because she was the wife of Mr. Nhu, Mr. Diem could do

little about it because out of consideration of his brother, he

wouldn't want to meddle on, comment on, on his brother's-in-law's wife.

That I can understand that position. With President Diem it was a very

difficult position there.

Now...ah...Monsignor Thuc who...ah...was listened to by practically

everyone in the family, now... ah...unfortunately tend to support Mme.

Nhu in...ah... and...ah...all, all that she did. And Mr. Nhu being Mme.

Nhu's husband, although he got mad at her privately and... ah...he, he

did that at least once in my presence...ahh... said to me ah...

End of SR #2601

Vietnam.

SR #2602.

Ton-That Thien.

Okay. This is Vietnam, April 21st.

Sound #2602. Pic. 603. Scene two. Take five.

Ton-That:

Now, as insider I know that everyone was mad at Mme. Nhu except for ah

Monsignor Thuc, but as Monsieur Nhu said everyone is kicking at my

wife, you expect me to kick her also. That's it, that's ah sums up the

position of the family in regard to Mme. Nhu.

Interviewer:

That's fine. I think we can go [inaudible].

Okay, let's just do a wide-shot. Everybody quiet. Room tone. Just look

over here, sir.

Transcript

Transcript

Series: Vietnam: A Television History

Raw Footage: Interview with Ton-That Thien, 1981

Contributing Organization: WGBH (Boston, Massachusetts)

AAPB ID: cpb-aacip/15-639k35mf1g

If you have more information about this item than what is given here, or if you have concerns about this record, we want to know! Contact us, indicating the AAPB ID (cpb-aacip/15-639k35mf1g).

Description

Credits: Interviewee2: Ton-That, Thien
Interviewer2: Hoyt, Austin
Publisher: WGBH Educational Foundation

AAPB Contributor Holdings: WGBH
Identifier: 748902f03f7c317160dbe0460f6d2ca2e318db13 (ArtesiaDAM UOI_ID)
Format: video/quicktime
Color: Color
Duration: 00:00:00

Citations: Chicago: “Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ton-That Thien, 1981,” 1981-04-21, WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed September 17, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-639k35mf1g.; MLA: “Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ton-That Thien, 1981.” 1981-04-21. WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. September 17, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-639k35mf1g>.; APA: Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Ton-That Thien, 1981. Boston, MA: WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-639k35mf1g