American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Henry (Hank) Thomas, 4 of 4

Mississippi was determined to, shall we say, brutalize us out of view of the public. So, when you saw us on the film clips being arres- ok alright[different speaker] OK. Start again, we don't see you, when we were arrested. [Hank] When we were arrested. Mississippi was determined to brutalize us out of view of the public, uh, when we were arrested, uh, and taken to jail, uh, it was done in an orderly way- [different speaker]: ?inaudible? [Hank] Yeah well the the humiliation of us occurred while we were in jail and to give you some idea that, uh, when we were finally transported to Parchman State Penitentiary that's when the dehumanizing process starting. What they would do strip you of all of your clothes and make you walk down a long cell block naked and that's the way and the few clothes that you had were in the cell block that you were assigned to and those clothes

consisted of a pair of under shorts and a t-shirt that's all you wore, and there was nothing more humiliating shall we say than just you walkin' down naked, and, uh, group of people just lookin' at cha' and I'll never forget, uh, seeing some of these dignified man, uh, just parading down the, uh, cell block naked. [different speaker]: Hard to believe. [Hank]: Yeah. yes- [different speaker]: ?inaudible? What was Parchman like? [Hank] Parchman, [deep exhale] we learned it was a place where a lot of blacks did not return from it had a brutal reputation, of, uh, blacks and maybe white prisoners being beaten to death and buried right out in the, uh, uh cemetery. Uh, we were told that we would be straightened out at Parchman, uh the jail guards in the city of

Jackson said just wait until ya'll get to Parshmen, they'll straighten ya'll out and obviously yea we were concerned about that and again we was suppose to say "yes sir" and "no sir" to the jailers which we did not do and, uh, we made it a point of addressing them by their first name, which is a no-no, you don't address white people by their first name or if it was Bob Jones it was Mr. Bob and we made it a point not to-, uh, not to do that that so it wasn't long before I got in trouble up there. And I get put in solitary confinement 3 different times and being put in what they call "The hole" is no fun. It's a, uh, black- dark black windowless door that, uh, windowless cell, where it's pitch black in there. Uh, the toilet facility a hole in the floor and, um, a bucket there for water and I think you were given a slice of bread 2 times

a day, along with maybe a couple water each time. I went into solitary confinement because I wouldn't stop singing. I would lead the songs in the afternoon and I was told to stop and I wouldn't stop so,uh, I got put in the hole. [different speaker]: What'd you sing? What was your favorite song to sing? we shall overcome one I learn from the kids in Nashville it goes like this: [Hank begins to sing] Oh, they go wild, simply wild, over me. anytime I go downtown and set for tea. all those bed sheets wearing whites they yell down with civil rights! They go wild let's go wild over me. [Singing stops] Then a real funny one was encouraging white folks to think about integration was, it's [Hank sings again] My dog, I lovea your dog, and a your dog, I lovea my dog

then a why can't we sit under the apple tree which you won't talk with me, you won't walk with me let us be like them dogs [singing ends] [laughter] [different speaker]: What did the gaurds think you were singing about? [Hank] Oh we had one big, fat fella, look like all Mississippi prison guards were overweight and, uh, he did say to me one time, he said, "Thomas, you know for somebody who- who been in the kinda trouble you've been in you- you sing alright why don't you just- just straighten up and do right." [Hank laughs] [Hank]: That was a compliment I guess. [laughs again] [different speakers]: ?inaudible? you all were singing [pause] just as much for the guards, as you were for yourselves. That- uh, the singing drove the guards crazy. [Hank]: Yeah and we'd, uh- and then sometime we thought that we would convert them with our singing. One of the things that unnerved all of the guards, was they were not

accustomed to black folks not doing what they told them because the job of a prison guard didn't pay very much money, 'k? He was at the bottom of the, uh, ladder- social ladder so to speak, both in terms of education and in- in terms of pay, so his only sense of being was the fact that he was white and he could beat up on some black folks, he can make black folks scared of him and here we were, we were a different kind of negro, uh, to these blacks. They've never heard anybody who would talk back to them and who would just talk to them give you an example the standard way that a black person and especially if your in prison supposed to rep- respond to a prison authority is, if they ask you something you go "I, uh, sir? I, sir?" and that was the way you're supposed to respond not- yea, I see you frowning it doesn't make sense, but that was a part, uh, you remember if you've gone to see one of these "African Tarzan" movie

the, uh, the African always referred to the white man as "Wata" yes "wata", yes "wata", uh, yes master and so "I, sir" and "yassir" was a way of saying "yes master" and- and the black prisoners knew what they had to do that, they had to do that to survive. A test-, uh, test- ,uh, Trustee rather could do just about anything to uh, a black prisoner, beat him up and a lot of them did and so they- they psychologically they just didn't know how to handle us now. I'm pretty sure they took out their frustration on the other black prisoners and as I look back on things that's probably something that I do regret. So were and- they got mad with me, they couldn't do much to me except put me in the hole cause they were not allowed to beat ya and then you know you he took it out on some other black prisoner. [different speaker]: What did the singing in jail do for you? Why did you all sing? [Hank]: All social movements, military campaign,

singing is a part of what you do. It- it's a galvanizing effect it's, uh, um, there are war marches that soldiers sing when they marched, uh, people sing when they work so and all movements throughout [pause] the years of, uh, had songs, uh, that were part of that movement in World War I, it was over there, over there, uh, the White Cliffs of Doler-, uh, White Cliffs of Dover and Yankee Doodle and of course the battle hymn of the republic so that's what singing does. [different speaker]: Well, what did the Freedom Rides accomplish? [Hank]: It's tremendous we freed black Americans, we began the process of freeing black Americans. We destroyed, did a lot of damage to the myth of the docility of black folks. There were white people

who consider them people of goodwill, very religious people who felt segregation was God's will and that black folks were fine and happy with it and we know that's a kind of a psychological mechanism that all oppressors use, uh, when they are trying to, um, discuss what they are doing. They say, "the people that they are doing it to really prefer that way". so white people thought that that's the way black people liked it, black people, of course never did like it. Always lived in fear of white folks and now they're seeing, um, black folks, uh, young people, uh, defying white people and so we help to get rid of that myth of fear and, uh, impotence on the part of whether or not you can do anything about your condition and so it then it just is the crack occurred in the Berlin wall this

crack started to occur in the apartheid wall in the south and, uh, obviously we begin to unleash the floodgates, or when the genie was out of the bottle and support for black inferiority is ?inaudible? and white superiority and that we begin to destroy that system and that's what the Freedom Riders did, that's what the sit in movement started to do and the Freedom Riders just, uh, increased the momentum." [different speaker]: M hm. I think one of the- on of the things that the freedom writers needed, was really important, was- was the f- first, um, kinda national movement, that was a first- you know there were these local movements that we had before that but this is the first time that- that you know it became, what we kinda knew the civil rights to be later on- [Hank]: Yes. [different speaker]: young and old, north and south, and black and white- white. that it was this, that you know that, that it was this national peace, you know that- that you didn't have in Nashville, you didn't have in Greensboro, didn't have- have in Memphis, you know, that something that's a little bit different." "[Hank]: Very good point.Um,

When I talk with young folks and I've had an opportunity to talk with, uh, black and Jewish teenagers, I let the black teenagers know, and same with a Jewish teenagers, that the civil rights movement was an integrated movement and I usually start out when I've address Jewish groups I said, "Lest I forget the Old Jerusalem" that when you talked about the national character of the freedom ride in the participant, yes you have large numbers of people from all over the country and from the north, uh, whites wants to come down and become a part of the movement and yes, that was this national character." "[different speaker]: Let me ask you again, 'cuz I don't want you to talk about- when you talked with the Jewish communities, ?inaudible?" "[Hank]: OK." "[different speaker]: -just talk about the national characters "[Hank]: Yeah. Uh, when we had people- people coming down from cities in the north, cities out west, that made the Freedom Ride a national movement.

And that's very important and that's when I think the Freedom Ride gave whites of goodwill, whites who want to do something who were searching, who knew that this whole system was wrong, and so now they have an opportunity, uh, to become a part of something that's changing the country so that was the good uh, collateral effect of the Freedom Ride." "[different speaker]: OK, that's good. I'm good." [long pause] "[different speaker]: Hang on one second. Can I just ask one more time- that question. The freedom ride started the national movement- what did the freedom rides accomplished?"

"[Hank]: It started a national movement, we had people from all walks of life, the four corners of- of the United States and uh, internationally to come to this country to wanted- wanted to get invol- involved in the- in the human rights movement. And that's what the Freedom Rides did. We had, uh, people of various religious faith, obviously black and white, young and old, uh, to get involved and so, um, it became a national movement."