War and Peace in the Nuclear Age; Interview with Sergei Policknov, 1986 [2]

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WAR AND PEACE IN THE NUCLEAR AGE - TAPE FD0256 SERGEI POLICKNOV [2]

Igor Kurchatov

Interviewer:

WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THE FIRST SOVIET ATOMIC BOMB THAT EXPLODED IN

1945?

Policknov:

At this time, I started my work in Kurchatov Laboratory and I

re--remember that as soon some unofficial information came to this

laboratory that a test was successful, that a weapon was functioning. I

would say people were happy in this laboratory...somehow they felt that

they contributed to that.

Interviewer:

YOU WEREN'T ACTUALLY AT--YOU DID NOT WITNESS THE TEST?

Policknov:

You know, at the time I was in the laboratory headed by Kurchatov and

this laboratory was rather large to this time and there were many

scientists which were working in different branches of nuclear physics

and not only nuclear physics except for some engineering problems also

there, and the program of this laboratory and so there was no formally

engagement of some persons who worked at this laboratory, let us say,

production of nuclear weapon, nevertheless, people realize it was

their--their doing, somehow it was related to this program and of

course the successful test was considered the success also of this

laboratory.

Interviewer:

WERE THERE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT HOW THE NEWS OF THE SOVIET ATOMIC BOMBS

WERE BEING RECEIVED IN THE WEST?

Policknov:

No, somehow--I don't remember there was a big interest to that at this

time at least among person whom I work together somehow there was no

concern of that.

Interviewer:

RESPOND TO THAT AGAIN AND REPEAT MY QUESTION A LITTLE MORE IN YOUR

ANSWER. PERHAPS YOU COULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE AMONG MY GROUP OF

SCIENTISTS THERE WAS NO CONCERN OF THAT NONETHELESS WE HAD...

Policknov:

Uh, it's a time when information came about nuclear tests in the Soviet

Union there was no concern among the scientists whom I worked together

about the reaction in the West.

Interviewer:

AND PEOPLE IN THE LAB WERE--WERE HAPPY...

Policknov:

Yeah, in fact people felt somehow that the success in this field leads

to the success of this laboratory also. And they felt happy.

Soviets Build an Atomic Bomb for National Defense

Interviewer:

DID THE SOVIET SCIENTISTS THINK OF THEMSELVES AS BEING IN COMPETITION

WITH NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS IN THE UNITED STATES?

Policknov:

Yeah, obviously they considered only the United States as a country

where scientists work on this problem are really as serious competitors

in this field. That was my feeling at the time.

Interviewer:

DID THEY SEE THEIR WORK AS HELPING IN THE DEFENSE OF RUSSIA FROM AN

OUTSIDE ATTACK OR SECURING A PLACE FOR THE SOVIET UNION AS A WORLD

POWER?

Policknov:

I wouldn't say that there were many discussions on this

subject....there were no discussions at all among physicists at least

whom I knew, but nevertheless I have the feeling that it was considered

quite natural just after the war to work on defense on the Soviet

Union. It was not considered as something unnatural.

Interviewer:

QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER HE CAN CITE ANY EXAMPLES OF KURCHATOV DISCUSSING

WITH HIS SCIENTISTS, THE REASONING AND MOTIVATION FOR THEIR WORK

Policknov:

You know, I knew personally Kurchatov and I had chances to meet him

several times to talk and I recollect quite well him as one who was

leading seminars, discussions, but what I recollect there was always

some scientific problems which were discussed and then practiced, it

was never under discussion, any political problems, let's say, to

explain why we are working from this, consider to be quite obvious.

Interviewer:

FELT THAT SOVIET SCIENTISTS WERE VERY PATRIOTIC IN MAKING THIS WEAPON,

HERE THEY HAD FOUGHT IN THE WAR THEMSELVES, THEY CAME BACK HOME, THEY

WORKED HARD, THEY BUILT THE WEAPON, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THE

UNITED STATES WHERE A BUNCH OF IMMIGRANT SCIENTISTS FROM EUROPE CAME

OVER AND WORKED ON THE BOMB FOR THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

Policknov:

You know I--I consider the statements of Kurchatov. All right with

respect to the Soviet scientist who just return from the war and

started to work on this programs. No--at this time, it was very strong

national feeling in the Soviet Union after the war was came to the end,

people still consider now we have to secure the country so it's

considered that something quite natural. And there were no doubts of

whether we have or not to work on this problem. I don't say that--the

that it was dangerous to--to put some doubts on this, on the necessity

to work on that. That's really would be very dangerous to put some

doubt here. But to my feeling, other people did not talk of that just

enough feelings that it is necessary. They believed it is necessary to

work, and they had no doubt.

Interviewer:

CONFIRMS THE NOTION THAT SOVIET PHYSICISTS WERE MOTIVATED BY A SENSE OF

PATRIOTISM

Policknov:

( ) yeah, I would say so.

Interviewer:

ASKS TO RESTATE ANSWER

Policknov:

Yuh, I would say the continuation I would say that participation of

Soviet physicists in atomic program was quite natural. Not only because

they were interested to work on some sci--on some scientific problems,

but also because they considered that Soviet Union since the war has

finished still has to be very strong in military for military point of

view.

Interviewer:

WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF KLAUS FUCHS AND OTHER ATOMIC SPIES IN THE

DEVELOPMENT OF THE SOVIET BOMB?

Policknov:

I don't know what the type of information was transferred by Fuchs to

the Soviet Union. Uh, I can just express my personal attitude. I never

heard of Fuchs at the time when I was engaged in the first years in the

work in nuclear physics. It came later but I--when I learned about

Fuchs but it seems to me that the--what had go-- in the case of basic

research, obviously if any information transferred by Fuchs was of no

importance because basic research is first of all intellectual

potential of the country and technical--technical level of the

industry. But with respect to some ethical aspects maybe there was some

information transferred by Fuchs which was of interest but here again

one has to take into account that it is not enough to have some

information but one has to have the industry capable for realizing

the--some technical things and just to own information it is not

enough. Of course, it--it is very helpful, but on the other hand it

maybe that some information could help to the Soviet Union to choose a

right ways how to develop Soviet atomic program and this I don't know I

wasn't there.

Development of Soviet Nuclear Program

Interviewer:

WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THE BEGINNINGS OF THE SOVIET THERMONUCLEAR

PROGRAM?

Policknov:

You know it was again a never stated that from this time we start to

work on this project. You know everybody learn that in it's own way.

And for me that was also my own way how to learn that and in fact maybe

this better to start not from the beginning how I learned about that,

but I would say from the end, from this story. Maybe that's a little

bit long but I try to ex--to tell you. It happened in 1953 that I had

to do some experiments with plutonium. And for that reason I had to

travel to Ural, to the land where plutonium was produced. And it

happened that at this time, Kurchatov wanted to go to this place. It

was the same place it happened. And he invited me with my apparatus to

travel together with him. That was in January of 1953. And it happened

at this during our travel to Ural, and Kurchatov was 50 years old. It

seems that he escaped the celebration. And it was just in one railway

station where our special coach was standing and the--I appeared to be

one who celebrated this Kurchatov is 50 years at university. And then

in the evening Kikoin came to visit Kurchatov. Kikoin was a physicist

who was ahead this time of diffusion problem of separation of isotopes.

And when Kikoin came, he brought a present, small present for

Kurchatov. And that really was very curious what has happened. There

was a small animal cut from the stone, and this animal was like a

lizard, and there it was written in this piece of stone: "To one

victorious, from one defeated." So, did I explain correctly what is

written there? From --"To victorious from defeated one." So--and then

Kikoin has given this present to Kurchatov, and more likely Kurchatov

realized what does it mean, but he pretended to show that he does not

understand and he ask me what does it mean? What is written here, I

don't understand? First I did not understand myself but then it came to

me the explanation. You know, in reality that was not a lizard, but

that was an animal which lives in water and is called Triton (Triturus

newt). But by shape it is like a lizard. But Triton is the same as

tritium, and tritium is a material, a heavy hydrogen, which is used in

hydrogen weapon. So then I realized that it was symbolically not this

animal but just tritium. So and then at this moment I thought so that

maybe explosion of thermonuclear weapon occurred. So was it was not

true to, but it was very close to that because in a few months, there

was a successful test that was one way how we learned that uh, program

of hydrogen weapon coming at least to the end. So, but

nevertheless...to talk about my personal involvement of other persons.

It happened that in the 1950s, I started with in our group with others

through to construct a small accelerating team in which we use

reaction... in plastic, that was exactly the reaction which is used in

nuclear--in hydrogen weapon. And later we started introduction of

neutrons produced in this reaction with uranium. So somehow it happened

in '51 or '52 when this experiments were in progress. And obviously it

was at the time when some other groups of physicists just were

measuring different constants--constant, different quantities of

important for hydrogen weapon. That's one--another example of how it

was clear that this--all this works were related to hydrogen weapon. At

that time, I remember once, Sakharov visit our group. That was

somewhere in maybe '52, either the beginning of it, '52 or the end of

'51. And since that time Sakharov who was not famous at that time, but

he was just interested to know some one--some results of our

measurements so that's means for me...that somewhere in early '50s the

work on the thermo--thermonuclear devices was intensified.

Interviewer:

QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THERE WAS A CLEAR-CUT DECISION BY THE SOVIETS TO

DEVELOP A WEAPON

Policknov:

Oh, I believe there was such a decision taken at the very high level of

this--it was taken at the level of Kurchatov and his co-workers. But

you know some persons are very engaged just formally in this project,

but some persons were just doing measurements, not, maybe even not

realizing exactly that they are working for thermonuclear device. As

they did not know of this for some formal decision. That's how I feel

about it.

Interviewer:

QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THE US DECISION TO DEVELOP A HYDROGEN BOMB

INFLUENCED THE SOVIET DECISION TO DEVELOP THEIR OWN

Policknov:

No, I don't know. But I would say soon, some ideas came to the Soviet

scientists. They would work on that you know. I would say it would

depend on this.

Interviewer:

QUESTION ABOUT WHAT SORT OF A MAN KURCHATOV WAS

Policknov:

I would say he was extremely attractive person and...

Interviewer:

ASKS TO RESTATE ANSWER

Policknov:

I would that Kurchatov was a very attractive person and as a leader

many person respected him obviously. I remember him as one leading

seminars, directing seminars and he was very good. So then, I would...

in relation how I remember, he had I would say a charm. And his

influence was extremely high.

Interviewer:

QUESTION ASKING TO ELABORATE ON THE CHARM OF KURCHATOV

Policknov:

To my opinion, in my opinion that this very important that one for

example has a sense of humor and Kurchatov working in nuclear physics

and directing big project, but when communicating with people, he was

always--you could feel a sense of humor of him and he was--I don't know

if it's possible to say in English, he was not a dry person. He--he was

very lively person and he came put some interesting question, direct

seminars and also he was interested in not only developing profound,

deep project like hydrogen weapon or the nuclear reactors, but for

example he was very much interested in fundamental research and when

our group started that, he supported us very strongly. To my opinion

that this very important, when came, for example, has a sense of humor,

And Kurchatov working in nuclear physics and directing big project.

When communicating with people with people he was always in good feel a

sense of humor...

END OF TAPE FD0256 AND TRANSCRIPT

Transcript

Transcript

Series: War and Peace in the Nuclear Age

Raw Footage: Interview with Sergei Policknov, 1986 [2]

Contributing Organization: WGBH (Boston, Massachusetts)

AAPB ID: cpb-aacip/15-1j97659g60

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Description

Credits: Interviewee2: Policknov, Sergei
Publisher: WGBH Educational Foundation

AAPB Contributor Holdings: WGBH
Identifier: d8f76bd1c3c1d7ba7484524f00de3ebc97eaf04c (ArtesiaDAM UOI_ID)
Format: video/quicktime
Color: Color
Duration: 00:00:00

Citations: Chicago: “War and Peace in the Nuclear Age; Interview with Sergei Policknov, 1986 [2],” 1986-03-16, WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed September 19, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-1j97659g60.; MLA: “War and Peace in the Nuclear Age; Interview with Sergei Policknov, 1986 [2].” 1986-03-16. WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. September 19, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-1j97659g60>.; APA: War and Peace in the Nuclear Age; Interview with Sergei Policknov, 1986 [2]. Boston, MA: WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-1j97659g60