We Shall Overcome

is it the student nonviolent coordinating committee or select as a generally non tears the struggle for negro and white equality into the very heart of the deep south it's settling in negro communities student volunteers carry our programs for democracy came to be armed legal desegregation executive secretary of state is james horner the young man who has been generally recognized as a major negro league national educational television presence we usually one executive secretary of the student nonviolent coordinating committee conversation with tennessee law professor of psychology at the city college of new law is at

around half about you and through you something about young people were associated with you first like oh how old are you were on the owners saw staff are seeing a new organization and thirty four the average age is about twenty two twenty three how did you happen to get involved in this rather than that and i think quite risky approach can find the right well you've worn them was born in chicago but i was raised in the northern part of mississippi lives in marshall county andy marso county love poems me and why today we have a war would just ration by that in marshall county and just last week my art who has taught school for

some thirty years in the state of mississippi recently became a distant border with a junior high school violet eyes glued to college englewood high school and a lot of cows were graduating college of rules about what a couple of the college but that was also typical and you add rows of college in chicago get and you go directly from rose well call it back to the south for nyad involved in leads to the nonviolent ah well what happened was that i had a ready made from the ford foundation study african affairs at boston university plus when email and i think that the only his chance even doing college i was tormented by the idea how can i get back into the cell and myself in a cell and then we're tempted to plant roots and the more on the in the city after the players and

why it became convinced that a man's action was necessary in many states one of negroes black rooms a strong effective protest movement so salad and then i'm sure that the announcement has certain techniques can implement their programming so could you tell us something about the state we want to use whole region and workshops mississippi don't last month assuming that student lacrosse the norm augustine i come to work sir winston's go back into their local areas in the environment things that says what methods would have white tents their early work well we can't salute

process we try to get one in local areas return involved local people because they ultimately must be the ones to sabo after nicholas winton gets to some colleges need the student to take me out of school at least in your skin helpless and program hammack was we have this summer some thirty white students from the north working in think so primarily so joining the eighties what happens when the youngsters go into communities in which they tell you all about what he learned there were usually we have to serve eighty two people assisting the case study of greenwood mississippi where sam block and now willie peacock went there last august but it's about five or six months before you really formal be cheered because during that time they encountered

many patterns of resistance when you first as the first building where they had an office the owner was intimidated white people came upstairs which agents tried to amend their churches used to open up an assistant job rather than fear they'll have to wait too a crisis of some dramatic incident occurred before your cooperation community and there's only area in these hard core areas of mississippi where we work and of course alabama and georgia to this is so it's free of the people have been brainwashed actually where the locals engage ms n why you plug away at its usually of crises which is a turning point because we don't try to make a crises and i guess that that this involves out of the nature of the work that we do the main dangers that you're members face when they're actually in the field trying to increase the number of negroes who are eligible to vote police brutality is the number one problem inside police brutality

we have right now living in mississippi for it that people in jail was a form of intimidation and brutality is to serve another common is if you don't have the the third violent cities the shooting of any travelers reading on one of our workers in alabama voters backed in state troopers are frequently welcome to something more unto use or most recently it is not to mention the constant pattern of harassment and we'll keep community

all while we try to explain to a man we're going to be there i think that the greatest fear that people have this fear that we will be stars and be there and we explained that we are sacrificing that we are will try to work four preps know more money than they make on their jobs so we can identify with them first as in mississippi most of those were overalls because as lou point you see you go there and they would assume the task and local people feel that perhaps you're being up at the end if you have their sole oh oh oh of identifying with the earth as they do in a sense there's a great a report between you and them and then they will feel self conscious then we tell about our own experiences own suffering and then try to get them to discuss their old fears and this oddly friends with young people

all of this is to try to blend into the community you live with the people and that is correct that is correct where we possibly can we try to live in the community i think a but most of the sociologists would say that there should be a blending of academic approach in the actual field work at quartz a lot about people who are college trained individual would just blowing practical sociology of no action sociology are you still pushing because as a matter fact we registered more borders in greenwood after the harassment all because we double the number of our workers and we try to convince people that these intimidation zola result of their not registering to vote what do you think can be done over well i think that that we definitely have to make some changes in the voting blocs and i think that the nation itself has to

be concerned and some way we've got the sonogram attacks and educate people to these old bailey incidents of harassment which gordon these areas where we're working right you consider this thick voter registration campaign so important is it's essential that people be able to decide who'll they wanted like for their local government as well as state and national representatives i think that people ought to love politics with their local representatives and their congressmen and even just the alderman let him know how i feel about it why i think that the entire country on a ged began the civil rights legislation which is alien congressman think also that we ought to pass which is universal suffrage and we should not allow the sixth grade linda c qualification to be pay us that wishes simply say that the revised

twenty ones of all although ought to have the right to vote but more than that if we could all just becomes concern and start talking about this thing and writing letters and dissipating and in whatever way is important in your own community response in the old route of the older people isn't something really beautiful to see women centered barely eighteen years old boy should know saying that well i just wanted to do this for freedom before that or how many followers would you say that you have in the student nonviolent coordinating committee all told well it's it's very difficult to estimate the toll among likely get in terms of responsiveness anywhere fifteen twenty thousand maybe two thousand people but that's that's just an estimate and its props and when the map but we work on the principle of stare and a nice to restructure and we feel that so disciplined

step is much better to effectively carry on our program notes is all right to lead up the volunteers but we have to know that the work is being carried out whereas and sixty one person's we only had sixteen staff people right now we have sixty two years a tremendously well i've always been interested in knowing how do you get students to demonstrate how do you get them to go downtown in birmingham or in nashville or any other city and assert their rights as human beings and how do you get them to expose and so what you're doing to expose yourself housing has a vascular glad to do anything to sell i think that this is in prevailing opinion among members cotton snake is when coasting about corn in committee and that if you didn't stray bag sample that these things can be done then other people are willing to go along with you in a sense and i think that

are most people including the north and the south really want to do something about segregation there were about the problem of control or disciplined for example air with a technique of this are the leaders have to be pretty sure that there were followers will be part of a pattern of decision policy for example if you want to start a demonstration you must be pretty sure that you have the manpower with the standards and it's equally important to be able to stop a demonstration of how what is there about your organization that makes it possible for you to have this kind of discipline was stacy first thought you know we carry movement leila fall of cancer and more work together and we try make decisions together because we're all involved in the situation and that the rest of the

one tapes is no greater than the other and sometimes born in jail as easy as part of the administration and then if you have a season me wanna willingness to insulation a commitment even that if necessary and all the members of your group really have this commitment to die if necessary work i i think so i think the senators staff and we're going to make an administration will tell people and it's a rule was a thing in jail that i'll return to point out the worst aspects of that they can become psychologically to play it for any physical attack upon them and as the same for death itself if you could become psychologically prepared there and does that include psychologically prepared not to retaliate yes i so do you find it's a difficult thing to communicate your training well not really because you know if you if the group does is committed and discipline our people are now limited people you know i suspect that the vast majority of negroes and

nine states and not committed to the principles of nonviolence you know i mean that they really want to retaliate but this is the important factor in selecting people who work within it gets i when we try to get those people were not going to do this and as of yet we have not at incidents of anyone retaliating on the spot there what is the relationship between your group and martin luther king's toleration that's also a non violent movement yeah well the courts formed out of the area set in our other bus boycott and in the spring of nineteen sixteen list of moons we'll call over south it did call a conference of students in rolla north carolina and the students at that conference decided that they wanted to have an independent organization and perhaps some of it was because robert this decision was based upon the spirit of mobile and perhaps the feeling

that on the farthest and said if they did not have been an organization that they maybe compromise in some of their decisions i want to be independently so actually is it a fact that you do work closely with marketing firms global suthers others recently the southern christian leadership conference you were closely with the mud you are not in any way organizationally pride that's right because the last summer in albany and when you saul headlines by backing in albany now about doing some delayed court and so forth the same is true to some extent in birmingham what about your relationship with the nw sleepy well our we try to cooperate with all groups we have found some jazz work with these councils we certainly use of negro facilities of the legal defense and education fund they helped bail you out some fun while they'll provide at bay hill but after all a

baseless of money on the basis of providing legal services and there's just no need for us to duplicate this as long as they're willing to have a legal case is ok well one other record on racial equality over the relationship going is this and joint products meanwhile one free rat well we have asked about the latin kings of grew the end of the ways he paid and core i'm sure you heard about the black muslims very articulate member of that group we're with malcolm x and said some interesting things about the integration thrust in the south do you have any relationship with mr x at all well not now america's might affect of pneumonia in atlanta there are some on the cycles in jeremiah accepting visiting simpler and out operations based in atlanta that's where national headquarters is in atlanta and

we've had many occasions to talk within three on multiple forms but now i think one of things that they don't particularly like being called black muslims to some extent i think they'd rather have two muslims out about this but do you you sense any era opposition from them won a criticism long as what you know they're always concerned as i think though that a lot of their criticisms just tactical operation in fact i think the love muslim ideology simply a tactical operation which even levin well i'm really be the concept of the state for instance is it may be real in a sense to some of the numbers but i really don't believe that muslims expect to carve out a state in the united states for instance i think that there are some very good things about muslims and sons i think that their answers is important social and economic program is very solid because it doesn't end

the naval masses a degree of confidence in themselves i think also that their entry into the political sphere is going to bring them closer to other groups and that is something the arizona know what it could've been convicted felon this is now fact that fell to two years ago there was only just a matter of tram to the muslims were more correlated before they entered the political sphere but as of now they still assert that they are for complete supper haitian and segregation play play do not want a negro to have anything to do with the white man lacey is about i will certainly this is not consistent with your goals and their goals louis underway cpu or court order raised in the southern ocean what is that is a rally that labor is what they want to see you i can't debate and it about one another man's belief that

but i think this just a tactical operation something tuneful captivate the mind you know sometimes you have to stretch out to the father's poland audited relatively unknown one they said three years ago that they were going to vote they didn't believe in cooperating with the government and yet they are voting now see i think that has to handle that that there's been read regular lot of case in the muslim problem that i think that the important thing is not to twenty years of muslims as a poll of reference but the pull of reference has to be the segregation which exist in the society that the muslims can exist between intimate segregation to examine i think that's a very good point to come back to your program the student nonviolent coordinating committee are the goal for short range of a long range golden student nonviolent coordinating committee why that that that the basic objective is one is to keep the protest movement lack because we are firmly convinced that you know

protesting in segregation veteran changes of them remained and they have been tremendous changes in this country unless three years and i think most observers would indicate that since the beginning of his tune with the changes have been extremely profile is one thing the other thing is that we of course want to see more political democracy yesterday and into this out a little bit more formal political battle listen live know will disable the more because we would he would be willing to settle for just a little bit more well okay where it's just an understatement out but in mississippi for instance we feel that the eastland status as most a country does apple really unrepresented people and feel also that in the north aren't people were affected people are affected by the seasons of some of the southern politicians and that you really can have a better democracy and to sow chains this so we're working on that level we i

ultimately it was we want to see a society where there is an absence of segregation in where people can develop though to actuality well do you think that you're going to succeed in obtaining a society in which there is an absence of segregation and where each american citizen will be able to develop his own potentialities and contribute to the strength of our nation i don't but i think that this goes the man surveys and imaginative about it works and we can sit down in the pollard night and talk about saving a few indie unhappy about do something og and i would just leave a bad if if everybody would make some will step toward ending and then of course the beef the problem would be santas is and this goes goes the gamut from the government on down to just a lonely housewives or what do you think made federal government has contributed to the attainment of this why think that that that in the

area building that the government has done something you know in terms of filing some reason jackson we are in jail in greenwood for instance it went in and vowed to sue which was never a track but i think that that it has failed they're very seriously because see this problem of segregation is really not a problem edge of the federal government to mean yeah well i think that all three of them failed perhaps not the supreme court bar the executive and the legislative department at failing press and legislative partners fail most miserably because it does have a lot of some senators are but the scene the ending of segregation ought not to be the responsibility of the negro it ought to be the responsibility of the government well why does not the government understand this well i think you see yet well i don't know what i think that seattle's hello theory lose we say a little something like this but see how convincing if every white person the united states can be a negro

for two weeks in mississippi as segregation would no longer incessantly or happily all your life where you know we've been just frustrated and tormented by the usual acts of segregation discrimination all about lance but just the flamingo for two weeks and make one come back and do everything in the senate than the time is the united states to change are castigated suppose segregation patterns do not substantially changes i suppose in spite of all of your efforts and the efforts to all of the groups working to make this a more democratic society about the only good spoken evidence of change why do you have this serious trouble because you see is difficult as you know there's been this wave of balance to some extent this brain well it's difficult with advocates of nonviolence to restrain

everybody mean they're people watch says being beaten for instance and if people do not like this and those are people going to react in a violent fashion news and the birmingham nashville a couple of the places now i think that the government has a responsibility to make nonviolence work it out that is that where a police officer and maliciously attacked a person and let me point out the police brutality i think as a sole calls not the so called one of most important detriment to the attaining so right because people are really afraid of the police and i imagine it i would be to you know if i had lived under the scan of a police state that existed now baumann and mississippi and so forth well they way saved me that it's not the duty of an innocent legal bystander to prosecute police officer under the constitution this comes within the purview

of the federal government and i think that that we ought to move the federal government the executive branch or to move more forcefully to prosecute these people that you know doesn't make any difference to me you know and they'd ask him but i'm talking from one of the people on the street and from the point of view of the stability of our god that's right is it because you know sometimes we'll bleed and sewing people but yet the man on the street whom say is another policeman hit a person is going to react very violently tell me and then how do you account for the fact that young people like yourself and even younger i'm willing to expose themselves day in and day out for this type of physical danger if not that what what accounts with the flow just tag your family you see i'm robin beyonce left bank a fair somewhere reading a book or something like that but

us aviation says dreadful evil that somebody at some point in their life past and a sad or a group of people and we're going to try to do owl farm and it says these images that've segregation and the swamps and raul and we can to end it and now oh yeah oh

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