In Black America; The Summit On Race In America: The Songwriters, Part I

From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. I think that musicians have a responsibility in general because what they're dealing with is, to me, what I call the divine art, which is music. It's that ability to touch people, to bring people together in ways that no other art form can do it. So just as a general, I would say, yes, but I think that I'm not someone that would ever tell anybody what they should do. But I do think you should respect the platform and appreciate the platform that you've been given as a musician. And so for us, I remember we did a record, it's been, well, 30 years ago, I think now, maybe a little more than that, we had a group called Sounds of Blackness. And it was a very important project for us to do because it really embraced all of the

African-American art forms. And that was something that we chose to do. I don't think we necessarily felt like it was something we had to do, but it was certainly something we wanted to share with people and to take that advantage to bring people's years and to make people feel better. And for us, it's probably our favorite record that we've ever done. James Jimmie J. M. Harris III, Grammy Award winning songwriter and producer. This past spring, the LBJ presidential library on the campus of the University of Texas in Austin, hosted the Summit on Race to the America, Liberty and Gesture for All. The Samuel Vitt explored our nation's continual racial divide and struggle for racial equality. It featured civil rights icon, esteemed leaders, activist musicians, comedians, and other artists for open and candid discussions on the failures, progress, and challenges our country faces on race today. Through conversation, performances, film, clips, and presentations, the Summit took on several of the issues of our time, including voting rights, immigration, movement building,

economic empowerment, and the betray of race through the media. I'm Jaliel Hansen Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week's program, the Summit on Race in America, Liberty and Justice for All, the songwriters with Jimmy Jam, Shemika Copeland, and Wycliffe John in Black America. You know, I come from Haiti. I was born in Haiti. I didn't get to America to the age of nine years old. So I would say for me, I'm a student of like Harry Belafonte, you know, automatically for me, where I come from. The idea being in a village, having nothing to eat at times. So you're on a donkey, you know, and the dream is if you can get to America, you're going to make it. And then when they tell you, if you can get to America, they're not telling us that, you know, it's country music, it's R&B music, it's, we don't have no clue. So now, by the time I get to the project, I'm 11 years old. By the time I'm 12 years old, I can't speak English.

So I can't tell the difference between Pink Floyd, police, synchronicity, run DMC, and Bar Mali. It all just sound like good music to me. So I think the responsibility is that we have to instill the truth about music to the kids at a very young age. And I think what we're seeing now is we're seeing an explosion. Grammy Award-winning musician Wycliffe John. Music is the universal language of the world. This past spring, five years after hosting the Civil Rights Summit, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, the OBJ Foundation is moving the needle again. They hosted the summit on race in America, liberty and justice for all. The three-day summit was held up to the OBJ presidential library on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin, a staying leaders, artist, musicians, comedians, and other artists, gathered for an open and candid discussions. One panel discussion featured songwriters in the round, Blue's artist Shemika Copeland. Grammy Award-winning songwriter producer Jimmy Jam and Grammy Award-winning musician Wycliffe

John shared their thoughts on music as a form of inspiration, activism, and social expression. On today's program, we present highlights of that discussion. Founding exactly directly on the Grammy Museum, Robert Centelli, moderated the panel. As African-American artists, people of color who are in the music industry, do you think that artists have a responsibility to somehow deal in some way, shape, or form with the issue of race in their art? Wow, great question. So, I think that musicians have a responsibility in general, because what they're dealing with is, to me, what I call the divine art, which is music. It's that ability to touch people, to bring people together in ways that no other art form can do it. So, just as a general, I would say, yes, but I think that you, I'm not someone that would ever tell anybody what they should do. But I do think you should respect the platform and appreciate the platform that you've been

given as a musician. And so for us, I remember we did a record, it's been, well, 30 years ago, I think now, maybe a little more than that, we had a group called Sounds of Blackness. And it was a very important project for us to do, because it really embraced all of the African-American art forms. And that was something that we chose to do. It wasn't, I don't think we necessarily felt like it was something we had to do, but it was certainly something we wanted to share with people, and to take that advantage to bring people's ears and to make people feel better. And for us, it's probably our favorite record that we've ever done, because of the way that it affected people, it was, it was a hit, and we want a Grammy for it. But more importantly, the way it affected people was, was very enlightening for us, right? Shmika? Oh, absolutely. We have a responsibility. I started making records when I was really young, and when you're young, you don't really have that much.

And then a date rape, and even domestic violence, and here just recently, with everything that's going on here in our country, definitely songs about just hate, injustice, and racism. And so we absolutely have a responsibility. And so... Why, Clark? Well, I mean, I want to just, first of all, say the only reason I'm wearing this hat, because I knew he was going to be this. Don't get twisted. You didn't tell me. I didn't tell you. You didn't tell me. I didn't tell you. You tell me, like, that's total respect, first of all, you tell me. So, you know, I come from Haiti. I was born in Haiti. I didn't get to America to the age of nine years old. So I would say, for me, I'm a student of, like, Harry Belafonte, you know, automatically, for me, where I come from, the idea of being in a village, having nothing to eat at times.

So you're on a donkey, you know, and the dream is, if you can get to America, you're going to make it. And then, when they tell you, if you can get to America, they're not telling us that, you know, it's country music, it's, it's R&B music, it's, we don't have no clues. So now, by the time I get to the projects, I'm 11 years old. By the time I'm 12 years old, I can't speak English. So I can't tell the difference between Pink Floyd, police synchronicity, Rundy MC, and Bar Mali. It all just sound like good music to me. So I think the responsibility is that we have to instill the truth about music to the kids at a very young age, and I think what we're seeing now is we're seeing an explosion where you can't defy music through a genre. If you look at the kid Nas X right now, where he's doing a little kid doing country trap.

Now some people are like, what is trap, Wachler? So it's just to me, it's more that music has to be used to break barriers, and that's what we're seeing. Back in the first part of the 20th century, we always had pop charts, which indicated how well a song was doing on the charts, how it's sold. But back then, prior to World War II, in particular, there were two charts. There were the race charts, which dealt with African American music, and there were the pop charts, which were primarily white in their origins. Along comes a man by name of Barry Gordy, and Barry Gordy finds a way through Motown to get African American pop music onto the white charts, and he does that in the 1960s in a very, very big way. Jimmy, when you look back and you look at the role that Barry Gordy and Smokey Robinson and others played in Motown to bring this out and to finally integrate those charts, is that really the beginning of when African American music can really not only deal with

a pop side, but also deal with issues that are very, very significant to African Americans? We, I mean Motown, for me, was probably the biggest influence that even it had on me just as a musician, or even wanting to even be in the music industry in any way. I remember when I was really young seeing a record that was, I think it was the Supremes sing Holland Dozer Holland, and I remember asking my dad, who was also a musician, I said, what does that mean, Holland Dozer Holland, and he said, those are the songwriters, and that was the first time I even realized those songwriters, okay, that there was people that actually wrote the songs, and people that actually played the songs, people that produced the songs, just the different roles that music played. And then culturally, for me, growing up, when you see artists today, I think a Beyonce is always my first example of someone who has really transcended every area in media, in films, in television, in just everything.

Back in those days, if you were a musician, you were just a musician, it wasn't that you were doing other things, you didn't have the opportunity to do those other things. The fact that Barry had the vision to do films, to do television specials, was very, it was exciting. It was exciting to see all of a sudden on TV, see black faces, to see in movies, black faces, to hear black music, and the other thing was the music that Motown did was different to me because of the sophistication of it. There were strings, and there was horns, and there was arrangements, and there was all of these things that you heard, that if music is a soundtrack of your life, then what he did is made all our lives so much broader and so much better. At the same time, Motown didn't really deal in great detail, let's say, musical detail with the civil rights movement, or any of the issues that were confronting African-Americans in the 1960s. But they did later on because when I remember Edwin Star War, I remember when the temptations switched from doing the love songs, and all of a sudden we were talking about, you know,

Poppa was a Rolling Stone, psychedelic shack, and those types of songs, and all of a sudden ball of confusion, so on and so forth, with Norman Whitfield, who was a great writer and producer of those songs. So I think they were very aware of the times and musically put that forth, which was very important. The Staples singers did it in a big way. They were, for me, even now, Mavis Staples is a huge part of one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about issues in my songs because the Staples singers were, they were brilliant at doing that and bringing people together. And on the front lines of civil rights. Absolutely. They were right there. That's right. And we actually had Mavis Staples on this stage a few years ago when we talked about civil rights here. I'm sorry I missed that. It's a financial leverage. You were something. I'll say it. Hip-hop, on the other hand, with groups like NWA and Public Enemy, Chuck D, and Fuji's and others embraced it.

You seem to be, that music form seemed to tackle head-on issues confronting young, particularly young African Americans, inner cities, and attacking it, even though for some people who were listening to music, it was, whoa, it was pretty hardcore, spoke to truth. Is that something that still inspires you today, Wyclef? Well, I mean, you have young kids like young Doug, who's 24. His song is called Wyclef Jean, so it's more, but think about this. So I'm 19 years old and I call my group Fuji's, Fuji's, which is short for refugees. The first Fuji album is an album called Blending on Reality. The first song on Blending on Reality is a poem to the KKK, right? So can you imagine we get out record day on this, and what y'all gonna do, or we're gonna write a poem to the KKK. So I only say that. I only say that because at the end of the day, hip-hop music and country music, original country, like Johnny Cash, that'd be talking at talk, you know, like it or dislike it.

What happens is the reason why hip-hop is the biggest form of music around the world is because it gives kids a chance to break barriers, and you know, if you're doing Russian hip-hop, you in Palestine, you in Israel, you in Brooklyn, on the internet, we all somehow connect. And I think that the power of that, us, we was influenced by NWA, public enemy, KRS1, all the way up to today, like a Kendrick Lamar. So I think that that's what hip-hop does. Even blues, you have a brand new, really great record out of America's child. And there were some songs on that record that deal with issues of race head on, and they come almost semi-autobiographical, I would imagine. Can you talk about that? Absolutely. I did a song called Would You Take My Blood. And my father, who was a great blues musician named Johnny Copeland, was in the hospital waiting for a heart transplant, and while he was in the hospital, there was another man

in there with him that was adamant about the fact that he did not want blood from anybody that was like him, and this was over 20 years ago. And so this song was a long time into making, but we were finally able to get it into song and put it out there for people, and it's just been amazing the reaction that we're getting from it. Well, what was it about, precisely? How could you explain the instance on this album, yeah? Just, you know, if you were waiting and needing blood, would you take mine, you know? And would you take my blood? So is this a white man sitting there and being offered black blood? Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Interesting. It took you this long to write it? Exactly. It took this long to have the courage to just put it out there in a big way and be comfortable doing it. Like I said, I mean, I've been making records for a long time. I started when I was like 17 years old, so, you know, at 17, you sing about your boyfriends and that's about it, but then for me, things evolved and changed, and so now I'm just

putting things out there in a big way and saying, you know, would you take my blood? And I ain't got time for hate. The whole history of American popular music is based on really exploitation of African-American songwriters, producers, artists, et cetera. Back in the day, in the early blues days, even before your dad, people would sign contracts and instead of getting royalties, they would just be paid for the session, and that was it. I never saw a dime after that. That happened and it was a shame. Does it still happen today? I mean, if you're a young African-American and you're looking for a contract and you have talent and you have music, what are the challenges that you face in terms of getting a fair deal? A deal that would be the same kind of deal white person would get? You always have people that are going to take it or try to take advantage, but I think young people today are way more educated, you know, than say my father who was one of

those artists that got taken fully taken advantage of, he wrote great songs that he never got credit for, but I think young people today, you know, they got the internet man, they're good. They're good. And social media, you know, they got all that. I think what I think is, and I agree with you, and I think what's really good, social media is, I think, is great for that reason because it connects you directly to folks, which I think is a great thing. But it also means, the other side of that, it also means there's a lot more misinformation out there too. So I think it's harder to decipher what is actually good information, but yeah, people still get it taken advantage of, I mean, that's just kind of life, unfortunately, is what it is. Michael, if you do a lot of work with young people on college campuses in the inner cities, do you feel that there are knowledge of what's going on and how to avoid getting taken advantage of it is strong enough? What happens is, through hip hop, we give information. So the new generation has the information.

That's why they will not sign to no label right away. So when you have, like, kids like Chance the Rapper, I mean, my daughter's 14 years old, you can't fool her. She come to me, she said, Dad, you got to sue the Migos, they're just sample knuckles. I'm like, for real, but then my people's, I can't sue the Migos, baby, I'll just have to talk with them. So it's, it's, so, but what, this is what I did, right? I still believe that, you know, the human is stronger than the AI, right, because, but at the end of the day, the combination of both is what works. So on the last carnival tour, what we did was, I said, I'm going to do a project called Why Clevkos Back to School. So while I was touring the carnival throughout America, we went to the schools and it wasn't no reality show. I popped up in the music programs. And if I felt someone was the next Adele, I was like, okay, you're going to be on the next Why Clevk project. If I felt someone was the next J. Cole, so ain't no robot telling you. I'm telling you this, right, ain't no trickery on Spotify saying, you just listen to this.

I know you want to listen to this. And I think like in two weeks, 80% of all college students and it's streamed over one million copies in two weeks. So I believe in the power still of physically showing up, because sometimes you get so much information. And I mean, think about it. We created a lot of this music and continue to create it. So the AI ain't going to be smarter than us. What the AI is able to do is the information you put inside of it. It's able to give back. The reason why I did that, I felt like major labels are getting mad, lazy, bro. They just got somebody sitting there and like, yo, a hundred million on YouTube. Let's give this kid a call. And I think that we still need the origin of the physical person with the talent that understands showing up and still blessing the game. It's important. Yeah. Well, talent knows talent. Yeah. I think that's what it is, talent knows talent. Yeah.

You see how much of OG he said? Like, he cut, he's just sitting in two words, man. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to use that in a rhyme, bro. I'm going to give you 5%. Give me a question for you. And, kind of for me as well, because we're both members. Well, everyone's a member of the recording academy, but we're more intimately connected to what goes on there. Years ago, the recording Academy, the Grammys, for those of you who don't know what the recording Academy is, took a big hit. It took us a long time to recognize hip hop as a viable music form. And I remember Will Smith, when he first won his first Grammy, he had been hoping that for previous records, he would be invited to the Grammys. And he had a speech written for each one. Should he actually be nominated? Hip hop actually be recognized.

And when he finally won, I don't know if you remember that famous scene back then, where he said, OK, so I'm here. So I'm going to read my first speech. Then I'm going to read my second speech. And then I'll read this speech here, because it's way too long overdue. What caused that? Was that a racial thing, do you think? And again, it's just your opinion, where we're both from the same clock here. Well, I think, first of all, what I learned about the Grammys in my county history there is that it's a membership organization. So the organization is only as strong as its members. So if you have a situation where, let's say, hip hop music, I remember when I first came on board, because I didn't know, first of all, when I joined the Grammys, I didn't know that you could join. And they said, well, if you join, you can vote for yourself. And I said, OK, cool. So this was long ago. This was probably like 85, 86. So I joined, and we won producer of the year, because I voted for it. I said, OK, well, I like this.

Yeah, I like this. So that was our first Grammy we ever won. But when I actually got involved and realized that the organization isn't just about an award show one night of the year, it's the other 364 days. And when I became a member of the board, the thing that I remember looking at, and one of the things that the Grammys does that I think is very cool, is they encourage you to bring the next person along. So when you join the board of governors, they want you to mentor somebody. And I remember looking around the room and thinking, there's no hip hop sitting at this table. There's a lot of very educated music people sitting here, great musicians, great producers, artists, everything. There's no hip hop sitting at the table. And there was not a lot of female sitting at the table either. So I brought MC Light into it. MC Light became not only the chapter president of the LH chapter, became a trustee on the national board and the whole thing. And then she in turn brought whoever she brought. And so now it's different. When I look in the board room now, I see hip hop sitting at the table along with country and rock and all the other genres and blues that has should be.

So I think that the challenge is still obviously always in motion, right? It doesn't end. But I think that the Grammys has made great strides. I think we see it in the diversity of the nominations every year or not every year. But in most years now, that it's better. But it's only as good as the members. So I think that's really it's about empowering the members and getting them involved in it. And that's the most important thing. You're absolutely right. I sit on the board as a governor in Chicago. There you go. And I'm the only blues artist there in the city of the blues. But here's a cool thing. And so I hope that what happens is is you're getting the opportunity to mentor that next person who's coming along, to talk to the blues community and say, we want you to get involved. Because like I say, that's what makes the organization great. The fact that you're a part of it makes the organization great. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of the blues, I mean, you represent the music form up here that has the longest history and is oftentimes, especially in its early years,

most identified with black suffering, black racism, Jim Crowism, et cetera, and blues being a reaction to that, and ability to express yourself musically through that. Do you carry that kind of sense of history in your music as well? Absolutely. I remember when I started listening to blues music as a young girl. And there were all these songs about men, all these like domestic violence old blues songs. And then further educating myself, I realized that they weren't talking about women. They were talking about slave owners. And they were singing about things that they could sing about and get away with versus things they couldn't. And so one of those, exactly. So one of those things were, I'm going to kill my woman. I'm going to beat her. I'm going to do this. They were really talking about slave owners. So I was able to learn that. And I definitely carried in. But I think now people, I see now people, they do songs about standing at the crossroads and songs about picking cotton and things like that.

I've not had that experience. My family and my family have had that experience. So what I do is I sing about my experience and the one way that I try to keep blues music current is singing about current issues. And that's the one thing that I'm doing. I think different than other blues artists, I'm keeping it current and doing things about what I know about issues that are bothering me at the time. Except for the 1920s, when you had Bessie Smith and Mamie Smith or all the great blues women at Divas, blues has been primarily a male driven music form. Well, guitar players plugged in. And that was it for the women after that. Because it was all about entertaining. And the women were great entertainers at the time. But then when they plugged in, that was it for us. The entertaining kind of went out the window when people actually paid money to just stand there and watch people play guitar, which is obviously which is also great. But the entertainment part of it sort of went out the window. So and that's what happened to the women.

Does that pose any challenges for you today being a blues woman, or is it pretty much equal? Oh God, no, I'm a woman that sings blues. There's nothing equal about it. A black woman that sings blues in a male dominated business. No, no equality at all. I have my challenges, but I work with amazing, wonderful people that we keep it together. But yeah, there's challenges, absolutely. That's all I'm going to say about that. That's it. Wycliffe, I know Bob Marley has meant a lot to you, both spiritually, as well as musically. And he's one of the greatest world musicians of all time. Talk about a little bit about Marley's legacy and how his legacy has kind of infiltrated into your music style. Well, I mean, I could speak in behalf of Bob Marley because of his son.

This is probably one of the greatest Grammy stories I'm going to tell y'all ever. Why I like the Grammys, even though they like, we should have won Best Album in a year, you know? That's cool, that's cool. But let me tell you, this is real talk. So we about to go on at the Grammys and we backstage meet and Steve Marley, Bob Marley's son. And we about to go on and we know at the time the platform is going to give viewership of over 20 million people. And I look and I say, yo, where's my Haitian flag? And I'm like, yo, I can't go on until I get my Haitian flag. This is it. And Steve goes, where's my Jamaican flag? I can't go on without my flag. This is Bob Marley's son. And we go out there with Haitian flag and a Jamaican flag. And we start to perform no women or cry. White Cliff John Grammy Award winning musician. If you have questions, comments, or suggestions ask the future in Black America programs.

email us in in Black America at kut.org. Also let us know what really your station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for Technical Producer David Alvarez, I'm Johnny Johansson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing in Black America CDs. KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard, Austin, Texas, 78712. That's in Black America CDs, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard, Austin, Texas, 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.