KEXP Presents Mind Over Matters; Sustainability Segment: Curt Black

this is diane hein your host on the sustainability segment of mind over matters on k e x the seattle many point to be a fan and on the web at atx feet out orgy i guess this morning as kurt black technical advisor for that's northwest and all volunteer not for profit organization that works to educate the general public about bats hurt was previously an environmental scientist for the epa kurt black is here today to tell us about northwest that's including why they are important and what we can do to protect them welcome kurt would you like to begin by saying a few words about that's northwest schorr pretty lucky here to have an organization's write in seattle most people don't have a local organization that their hands susan montana getting better long ago started out this organization it would like to give a shout out to john bassett made one i'm marble guard chris anderson the folks of them locally acting for bats in this area for a long long time we just a few words about the goals of that sniffed last summer's asia works for the protection of that education getting people informed there's lots and lots of misconceptions about that

that's a challenge typically i almost always try to start with that misconception as far as bats are mammals birds rodents what's more interesting at least to me than some of those are selling on vampires they're not online they don't get out there and they don't all have rabies selfridge that list of other way writer for that soulful divided self about what media chris no interest and that's i got started as a caver so i was with a cascade row right here in seattle a long time ago back in the seventies i just ended up spending more time with the bad folks who lead singer back then was active both as a caver in doing that research and the sort of my getting much more dismissal got his original electronics and he put together for bats so it could be monitoring or known back then what based on other memories of that's northwest to their interest and that i think it's a wide range of things for folks in there that would say work for the washer state fish and wildlife department although it two educators that remembers one of the toughest jobs i think you could pick rebuilding that says if i'm not a part time activity that very

challenging work so why and that's important the major providers of night flying insects if you don't like insects you're like that's oliver bad seed and six police throughout history there's some thousand species of bats in the world and of those forty five of move north of mexico and the north american area if you don't like pine bark more beatles and things that are running for four straight down that's corn borer beatles only sings some three point seven billion dollars in crop damage is thought to be avoided by dozens of that zimmerman the economic value moves on and to things like disease prevention west nile virus is moving through here if you can minimize the number of mosquitoes fly around carrying it and that's what these vets are going would you come in on the role of that says pollinate as sure it's not so much around here we got a couple species down in arizona and new mexico and mexican along those bad couple of those but up here all our bets are eating and sex but certainly pollination services throughout the tropics is an incredibly important as is the seed

dispersal the new plants don't have the option of moving around so they either move their genetic material or they moved the actual seeds usually using bats in this case let's focus now on the bat species that are located in the pacific northwest held very dear the different that's the season we find here they're tremendously very thorough microbe that so they're much smaller than people think i mean hollywood gives you this image of a bat being thirty feet across or something like that but all of our bet you could mail with a first class stamp though he's one at a time so some were a hummingbird science or pipa stroll the smallest one that would fit between like the first the cornerstone destroyed over your thumb it's a very very small animals and then on up to our largest that's a reasonably sized smaller than your fist still so this hoary bat is the browns' silver haired is the pistols spotted that kansans bad palin that was the ones that aren't in this other group of the most feared that certain mileage not so

a group of eight of them someone regarded tell apart excess we can't do it in the hand you have to fly the bat an acoustically listen to what's a man from those characteristics you can tell which species it is but if it is pulling at her hand we used to think you could do all those apart but it's just not the case so wrong about half the time how can i know that here in seattle the southwest leads that walks agree like a couple times a month and we've never been scuffed by bats they always show up and debris nice walks us all freely taken a bat detector when i go to parties or women from the city and tried it go places at dusk and listen and when i eavesdrop there's almost always some place where ryan thereabouts there tell us about the bat detector how does that work for vets are doing a lot of things with sound especially tropics and that's they're working on fruit have to be able to carry the fruit and still get their application called up so they yellow structure a leaf nose or whatever that wasn't the point that sounded <unk> to the nose like those stored knows bad for wisdom and a

family that's or leave notes that family with around here with them eating insects or whatever they can fly around with their mouths open and the sound comes up that uses same lyrics that you have to accept that these sounds are much much higher frequency up and ten octaves above middle c although most of our vets are doing things down three thousand cycles per second hand up with not two for discount an arms race or in between insects and bats the higher the frequencies they use the more resolution and out but the higher frequency the more tenuous in areas with space so they can't see others for they also get more information distilling fine structures and banks almost there that's the trailer for agency forests use of the frequency sweep from a high frequency onto just above we can hear frequently echolocation pieces is why they are so amazing and just that there's such tiny little animals that do all the stuff that we do we look around as primates and have this three dimensional picture of the world around us they acoustically he illuminates their environment with sound so their brains are building the same picture and then they fly through an intimate caught in

sex out of that which gets theses do we find here in seattle there's a bunch of those motives and big brown's service over herds some of the forested parts of the city we have some good urban forester and so for about the president's earlier captured them in the past we have set up business in the past to greenlight and capture tomorrow's that's just to see what was present i wondered that live and how did they adjusted the different seasons a lot times when you try to contrast batson what people can confuse them with the rodents the place i go first is how long they'll live mean most people think a rodent a couple of years' worth of life sort of thing but that's a much much longer lived creatures we don't know how old that was when i was tagged but we have to recapture that some thirty two years later so some bestseller russia another of the same mold his genius was forty some years so there were much much longer lived and i think most people think so that got this vast

accumulation of knowledge about their environment they seem to be passing at stuff on that share a lot of information the folly of his biggest sandwiches before they go into hibernation for the rating that you got to have two groups that's the singer migrate out of the region for the winner or because the insect is all are better here in section of turn in six to the most part and one of time and the two strategies one is to hibernate for the winter and a group of bats are widows that and another group presumably migrate someplace out here forza they're too small to put transmitters on switch and we follow them like you do with the peregrine falcons and things these bats <unk> assuming that they don't believe to california possibly mexico before that sort of thing that's in the pacific northwest only eating insects that's correct and we have to get down to a new mexico and arizona the first organist some nectar feeling that some in florida for your fruity rose are to be a sitcom soap and four i'm diane warren in my guest is scarred by a technical advisor for that's northwest a not for profit organization that works to educate the general public about

bats and you're tuned to the sustainability segment of mind over matter so most empowered katie epstein it point three of them and on the web and k x p nut allergy how healthy are bat populations in the pacific northwest so the population questions are really really tough and so i talk a little bit about that's being hard to study i mean they're just the opposite of birds are not sitting out there calling out some kind of territorial call constantly they're actually pretty much silent the us they're invisible that work at night all those things have led to a sudden nearly as much about that to get to the population west and it's really really tough because we don't have any idea what our bat populations are we know what species are present or be like trying to know by sitting outside and watching the siegel's flyby during daytime to get an estimate of what the seal population is we get that passes that we record but we don't know what the actual population is to do a population study usually duo mark and you

capture of an organism like a rodent or some like that which is really easy for some gambler outside like that anyway i capture more and then re re release them and then recapture and statistically overtime you can get some idea what about religion is based on how many of those marquee animals yet recaptured bats are really really smart and won't fly back in to the mist net winners and do this thing so when she captured that it's just extremely worried about the way you capture there are a few exceptions that some of the stuff in the tropics those nectar feeling that's apparently they don't have to be extremely intelligent or weary to sneak up on flowers so those bets do seem girl as soon as you release some of recapturing cost the fate of the fuzzy time that's done but no not around here so it's really hard with a question about casting a building getting into the population piece what has left why aren't there more maps on the endangered species list is like it's really hard to make the case we don't have published information to get about their souls i would say many of them deserve to be there but moody's don't have the

information either that's in the pacific northwest on the endangered species list we don't have any in washington the closest we haven't townsend's but which is certainly a sensitive species it's a species list by the state as a species a special concern but not endangered that's about that if you if you disturb it so arresting habitat disappear we don't know where they go presumably they were already staying in the best place that they could find someone we disturb them and we assume that they're going someplace above so we try to win a disturbance stuff because they just disappear listed to have some very nice cameras in summer lists now with those bouts of the animal set up and you can watch it on the web in what ways are the bats in the pacific northwest track and i would say mostly the habitat challenges we are busy corner way up in the cascades when you think about what this region look like just a hundred and fifty years ago it's completely transformed we had one hundred hundred fifty foot tall trees just these beautiful a beautiful forests that no one

has any idea what kinds of species diversity you what was here then and we have no idea the roof completely changed this landscape the soils that were here that thick duff layer those huge trees you get some sense of the realm are in or whatever in the national park the rest of this is it's a very different place that with more and blackberry it does policing bases that are in the lowland it's a different way so i don't know what that's we head but to say we have some that are very flexible willing to live with us in our homes if you give those vents off the peak the roof will certainly join you up there in the attic is it looking for heat to rear their young either a threat thats in addition to habitat loss and for say there's a whole another area which is a winter been questioned the tree resting that especially are just inevitably drawn to these high structures and the landscape that's what they used to use for respect so it was always their job to go check out the big whole thing sticking above the landscape and see you know there are some big good flakes of barking up with that they could smuggle countries and spend the day warmer place that they could wear their pups like a

thing or for migrating to a place that they can save some energy the charge of that now is that these big things a landscape to be wind turbines and especially on the ridge tops like i think so these bats is based on the east coast were there they're migrating algeria fishing korea that's likely they're ones that have twins but that they gone those is there's different estimates or whatever but maybe six hundred thousand half a billion that's a year being killed by these winter months because of the cuisinart for bats they don't actually have to be hit by the blade there's a near vacuum behind the blade the blade tips they're so big they look like they're not turning protest the back to get out of the way but i've done the math there's just a few milliseconds that that has to respond and there's no way that theory it illuminates with its acoustic energy as it's looking around looking in the darkness is it's not to see this thing coming and they're hard to study again if your heart's not in it you may not find the bats are turned and he wintered so is this has been a lot of challenges with both

getting the numbers the industry is certainly a big thing in other ways to get energy than the union about the ground and turn it into carbon dioxide so that was only one path at the same time clearly taking a toll on birds and that is the wind industry taking steps to reduce the amount of killing of bats and birds there certainly programs in place right now are having trouble just agreeing on the numbers or whatever it's highly variable location location individual wind turbine there stuff that they're working on as far as curtailment especially during migrating season when these quartets especially east coast are moving along this ridge tops encountering germans so as far as actually studying how many bats are out there i'd throw out that number six and doesn't there's lots and lots of questions about a it's a challenging thing because i mean the best practices involve like training dogs very carefully to go out sniff out these areas the bats can be thrown or flown a long way from his term and so it was a huge surge type job if you don't get out there early other scavengers command the carcasses are removed the dogs are highly trained groups really do

a good job but some which arabic uncover even when they do the salting of an area for some bat carcasses that they know how many are out there they have to kind of adjust the number that the dogs are finding the stone and their success rate would you speak about white nose syndrome and how it is affected batson united states sure before sleep we had a commercial cave in upstate new york back in two thousand and six word they observed a number of dead bats from the scale and the winner that are flying around it was a very strange thing and it turned out that there's this new fungus into north america pseudo jim no ass kissing my district ends its lead now to the deaths of some six million that's why i was contrasting that's in their longevity another piece of that is that they have extremely low reproductive rights a rodent can produce a litter of what eleven or so upset about does one puppy are typically some of her speeches to two so very low fidelity very low reproductive rates coupled with this disease it's looking like limits on tomorrow's show the

most common little brown bat possibly going extinct in north america it just depends on whether there's some resistance is building up now these are the population that actually can handle its wonders if they can handle it is of something it's a terrible trade that they can pass on the burial and then can they breed fast enough to overcome the death rate fore has the white nose syndrome spread so far across the earth and how about washington state though it looks inevitable was for is its heading this way this winter got to michigan and wisconsin that was documented sundance in twenty three states in five provinces says marching are burning across north america a little difference and some species response to indiana bats some seventy percent mortality are most common little brown bat has somewhat ninety percent mortality and then certain species on the northern long eared bat is like ninety nine percent mortality so it's definitely not good for banks it was very unfortunate that it got here i'm susceptible either that's in washington state likely to be to white nose

syndrome there were a couple of groups of bats we talk about the high rating that's been the ones that are sensitive to white nose syndrome luckily not all over bats hibernate so we have this or hold a group that migrates out of the region to go chase after insect throughout the winter so as migratory bat sir the tree roots thing that's la times column you would think they'd be pretty safe and phillies they're not trying to hibernate a says thereby temperatures drop they're susceptible to this fungus what steps are being taken to prevent the spread and there's really very active research going on if you go to white nose syndrome work google it or whatever is a lot of work but it's a very difficult thing was a naive species are naive population gets exposed to something new like this he kept a setback is an ecologist and watch it happen there's so much important work that fungi do out there that you can to spread fungicides or something people say well just put the caves are some kind of undecided that's not the path you're tuned to the sustainability segment of mind over matter is on k e x piece seattle ninety point three afghan and on the web add k e x p dowd orgy i'm diane

warren and my guest is kurt black technical advisor for vets northwest a not for profit organization that works to educate the general public about cats what can we as individuals and as a society do to help that's there's so much the threats of urban sprawl like anything if you could project waterless connect those chunks that you have protected so it well it can move from one to the next those kinds of it as a comics the assumption that the bats that we're working with are linked to wilderness and it's really not the case in many many cases we have lots of that's a live with us right here in our homes and our walls even skyscrapers and things don't sort of live in town so they're they're here with us if they're in sex out than to be clear that interfere some ways we consume swallows feeding in the daytime the night shift comes out when the bats are out there there are things in the vigils can do certainly with bath houses replacing roasting habitat has been lost by wanting to his

big trees that used to be everywhere and our very very fuel for between that house as helpless to recreate that thermal environment of the big snags put him in open areas as a lot of stuff which i didn't get and absorb more heat things like painting them black you make them really really well as for his caulking them and scream together and thing as you're building then it's not like little kids can put together birdhouses kind of thing in a project that houses are higher construction standards so you have to be what turned upside down for the water it will hold water that kind of stuff and then where you place it's pretty important so is a lot of information and that's what was website there's a whole backup central section in there for looking at grinnell they'll been baking in the sun it's going to be hard and there they would be up in your attic it's there could be more than a hundred degrees they're trying to stay where they're not putting any metabolic energy into keeping their bodies warm all the energy goes into feed your pups the one young we're they have given the pops up to the point where they can fly and they can forage and they can put on the weight that they're unable to make it through the next winter is never made it's

quite a challenging thing for these animals to do what are the threats to humans from that well bats are our only rabies better species so washington state if you're going to get rabies it's gonna be about variant rabies it might be brought to you by your cat a few cuts not vaccinated for rabies but for the most part of people one avoid rabies it's pretty easy you just don't interact with bats so interacting would be picking them up like anything so when we do work on bats psychotic point one point three or one in a thousand maybe three thousand of them are ravenous for it if you pick about up off the sidewalk in the increase your chances of think ironic that by a factor of maybe fifty years it's way more likely the downed that as something clearly wrong with that if we just are using counter bats so same thing which are kept so for cats can read you something it's going on in a blt bets can be something wrong with that so rabies is easily avoidable just teach your kids not to think about to

keep your pets vaccinated and those of us who work on them all have our pre exposure rabies vaccinations what if you find that's in your house in your attic for example a bunch of us about sales was really really really happy to have such a gift but a lot of homeowners don't wanna coexist with them we also agreed that if the bats are getting down and the living area sort of thing then indeed you should take some kind of action in the wintertime and do some exclusion work though it's not hard better not road and so they don't chew chew their way in your attic or your wall spaces and stuff they need to find an actual openings was pretty easy to on a winter day with snow outside serving of work my way through many an addict fighting with a light was coming in and walking along with some spray foam urethane foam expanding foam insulation stuff and this spring at those cracks and excluding the bat we try to do that in the water so that we don't end up trapping that's inside and certainly not popsicles thankless those attics a really really hot because whether it's their was less ways not to work in the summer we think of that about this earlier but what's the best way to

find interview that's the best of course there's a whole series of talks especially bat walks agreement park gets released twice a month that is viewing opportunities really deserve a jewel in the city's know when you think about nature and cities there's a real challenges for as water availability so this big lake sitting out here is a magnet for wildlife and certainly bats as well the bats are spent their whole day sitting up in an attic someplace baking inside hundred degrees the first thing the one who was going to get a drink so they actually come out of world of interesting today and head towards somebody's water in most cities their fuel for between seattle with just a few of them agreement is one of just an amazing place that's pouring through the trees region and beyond will be a weak over that house theater the bath house on the grassy knoll and his group assembled there to get some good skylight to the northwest use watches the bats pour through the trees the opening there and recently seriously as an acoustic monitoring equipment's we can hear with the bats are saying this are silent to us unless we

use some kind of agreement to move those frequencies down to regain you know we've really do some time expansion work as well so you expand the calls by a factor of ten and you can actually hear the structure of a common thing that we've put on some software an adolescent figure out which species that typically it is what is some of the research going on in regard to bats of the pacific northwest i mentioned a little bit about the bad grade project that was a protocol go up and sample a set amount of effort has for a slick how many hours i'm mist nets are up how much acoustic monitoring are going at the same place over and over again spread all over in a randomized great pattern that was done for the state and with no selected all these places where we try to go back and do the same protocol year after year and then add some difference but or can a population these curves of which species that we detected and as the kurds can fly down you figure you've heard his daughter because they're so washington's got these fifteen species and a lot of the rich habitats have quite a few of them get as mathias

eleven actually replaced what resources are available for people who would like to find out more about bats that would suggest things like the that's northwest website certainly one going on this bat walks is another back conservation international is a wonderful source of information they have a great citizen science program that goes on her actually collecting data from people who have their houses including if you're a badass is not working is the one here for me so you know cemented into prison and we can figure out what it is about that that house thats not attracted that's typically it's about how high they are how hard they're getting and how well their main but especially high if the vets have to kind of fallen begin to fly with most will become the thing is they come out of the house with that swoops zone overlaps with the leap so the cat there does not take that kind of risk so the occupancy goes way way up higher than that house gets well what's the message you'd like to leave our listeners well there are a lot of things you can do i would say

if you can enhance roosting a better but there are some large scale stepson in things like just voluntary simplicity work for peace and i would say the empowerment of women actually would be helpful population in general i think it's the the number one problem there are way too many primates in the xbox any population biologist would say we're just waiting for a virus right now and actually there's one happening in equatorial africa so maybe the times company where there are many many better ways to get out of this than just letting our population grow until something as the harvest us we can be smarter than that thanks so much for being here carrie you were just listening to create black technical advisor for bats northwest for more information check on the web app that's northwest out or and again that's that's northwest got orgy the sustainability segment of mind over matters program you're just heard will be on the screaming archives section of kiev's fees website at atx feed out or achieving the next fourteen days in addition sustainability segment interviews are available as podcasts along

with e x keys music podcasts go to k x p dowd a largely click on demand and then podcasting i'm diane warren thanks for listening and be sure to tune in to the sustainability segment again next week and listener part ninety point three fm and katie xv dido it