OutCasting; Intersex (Part 1 of 2)

next the youth of our passing to go look it intersects a term describing people who in some cases are born with a mix of male and female body parts are guests who are both authorities on the subject than intersects themselves talk about some of these body parts using a proper names there is nothing salacious in using those terms in this context but if you're in the mix are uncomfortable please tune in again in half an hour otherwise we hope you'll enjoy this discussion about natural variations in the human body i was a sense when i was about thirteen years old i was having abdominal pain they were sort of cast iron me to figure out of the navy they were something like an ovary was rupturing they discover nothing was wrong with me but in the process of discovering that they discovered that i had these internally and that i did not have a uterus i did not have overuse and they also discovered that i had x y chromosomes this is about casting public radio's lgbt q youth program where you don't have to be queer to be your podcasting is a production

of media for the public at the listener supported independent producer based in new york online ad outcast immediate dot org hi i'm lucas you've participant in the castings mean studio in westchester county new york on this edition about casting outcast andrew talks with terry gabriel castello and jordan davis about their experiences being better sense which means they were born with physical characteristics that don't fit into buying their sex categories carrie is an associate professor of sociology at the university of wisconsin milwaukee and the director of the lgbt studies program there george annas an associate professor of sociology at the university of nevada las vegas and board president of interact a nonprofit that advocates for intersects you in this conversation kerry and george and talk about what it means to be interstates and the difficulties that day and other intersects individuals face this is part one of a series susan davis and terry gabriel christo thanks so much for joining us

what terminology to be used to describe india six people and as their word for people who aren't intersects similar to sit stand or for non transgender people let's turn to use would be andrew sachs or some intercepts i would refer to as and no sexy n d o s e x villagers in how would you define the tune into effect for i would define intersects them as an individual having a combination of what are considered stereotypically male and female sex characteristics at the va for what we would normally expect for example i was born with that intersects train referred to as the complete insensitivity syndrome and that means that i was born with an outward female appearance but inside instead of having over easy uterus and fallopian tubes or testes in x y chromosomes and i didn't have a uterus

why didn't have overuse or fallopian tubes why wouldn't one and that is that there are an array of different traits and our sex characteristics include chromosomes they include extra notes anatolia they include internal reproductive organs they include gonads and each one of those can vary independently so there's not just comedy intersects as many different ways that people are going to say it's good to be you we're going into that we've come in a really wide spectrum kerry would you say that what qualifies being effective or if they are there different ethnicities yes dudley different definitions of maine distinction is between one intersects advocates would use and then people in the medical profession would give us a wide variety of diagnoses that would classify them differently so a person who has say an

atypical all level of sex hormones might be classified sometimes by doctors the center's excellent sometimes as a man or woman with typo are hyper sexed respect of all of us with intermediate sex trees are all equally intersects there's so many different intersects traits that exist and there's a lot of disagreement especially across the different stakeholders for other medical providers are intersects activists are advocates about a particular characteristic or trait does count as intersection i think just even the fact that we're debating that is really kind of scary and this to me i think that for one i'm not one to want to sort of determine one's intersects that status that let individual themselves determine their own status based on their own markers how common is the ninety six i think we are

estimates that range anywhere from one in one fifty m people like birds to one in two thousand and it really does depends on how and why one is classifying as intersects in some of the same people for these drastically different estimates an intersection the population so i always say is that you know sex is common enough that i'm confident that every single person has planet has met someone who is intercepts now whether or not that person themselves so their intersects because of allies in the secrecy and shame is another issue where is there a person feels comfortable identifying themselves as inner sense that those other stories that i do know everyone on this planet has met someone whose lives intersect z's also stressed official medical definition of sexuality has nothing to do

with the logic of bodies and everything to do with fear and today attempts to erase into sexuality we're living in the world in which no one was ashamed to either be themselves into sex or to acknowledge their child this pointed to sex and women see a much larger number of people being classified by doctors and other professionals that intersects the intent has been to try and minimize that number and two races and that's seen as an appropriate and good thing for our own protection that we should not be classified as it is accidental possible so kerry says they're built into effect and transgender identity is really the first i would say is that intersects is not an identity into such as the description of it so let's proceed external genitalia that we usually considered and

inside they have a uterus worse would be well nobody would know what it is unless you ask them maybe they would identify as a man or a woman or is a non binary person don't maintain that we have in common as intersects and trans people is that we agree that genitals term agenda so our bodies don't determine how we identify and i mean it is that person could have any gender identity but being intersects itself is not a matter of identity its a matter of how our body's constituted it's a gender that he suggested i have to say the reason that i use the term gender myself when i'm talking about people that all those who are born into sex or neither male nor female but that is not an option in pursuit of it gets in the us as of yet and so children are classified and put into a binary sex

means none of us are given a sex worker that matches our bodies are still calling somebody sees gender when the marker on their id match last exodus of their body at birth is strange on the other hand it's also very strange to call somebody transgender it's a parasite female at birth and identify as a woman cohen and transgender would not describe their experience either so the term gender is a term we used just for talking about it or six people a majority the us are willing to sign so their only chance your average person who is into science is going to be living in the sex they were assigned at birth and we went to terms for that that is not gender or transgender because it's

neither of those experiences so that's why i use the term soldier when talking about interstate folks who identify with the binary sex they were put into the earth soldiers and when did you find out that you're intersection when i was diagnosed with sex or that i was intersects when i was about thirteen years old and that happened because i was running around outside my brother and our friends and i was having abdominal pain and my mother initially was thinking that i was getting my period and she needed to have that talk with me so she brought me inside when she started talking tanks leader that was the what was happening i was in getting my period that's when she got scared with my friends and my brother and when the pain didn't go away she got increasingly alarmed so she took me to an urgent care center and they did all sorts of tests on the figure out of the navy they were something wrong with

something like an ovary was rupturing they didn't know what they were doing all these testing and the process of doing all these test they discovered that nothing was wrong with me that being that i had was just you know tramping from muscle pain or what have you it wasn't all really easily discover nothing was wrong with me but in the process of discovering that they discovered that i had jesse's internally and that i did not have a uterus i did not have overuse and they also discover that i had x y i wasn't told the truth about my diagnosis when i was ever urging care center i was told that i wouldn't be able to have biological children and i recall a very upset about that because you know i was thirteen or something i wanted a dart i didn't want to it later you know had surgery to remove those testes i thought they were removing cancer stories that i was told and then when i was about nineteen or so i came and medical records

and there was black sharpie and i could see was that you said it what i was doing crystal but about the fact that people lie to need my family right by doctors doubted actually looked up to him and my family i i love and of course you know still do i didn't understand why people like to me in and it was this unfamiliar sort of experience in medical records never wanting to talk about it again and then eventually as i've moved forward as my education and sociology and start reading a little bit more about gender about it isn't everything else i became more comfortable with it and revisit of the experience center since then i sent a bridge my personal experience with their intersect semi professional

desires to sort of understand inequality society how did find it that you were in defection gender thinning effect engender i seen that when i believe that was a symbol male or female we were easy so learning that i was intersects really nice to understanding and appreciating the natural variation that's found so many species especially you know humans on the tough and that it's a tender would essentially be huge years and so do you consider yourself as an actor and do you think that it's a gender would be for a better alternative well it's a great question and i identify as there's a gender more then identifying assistant or that

wasn't the case in my entire life are one the turn it's so tender didn't exist but i also i think i just wasn't really comfortable with thinking about myself being outside of a pioneering box that we all are forced into me the issue is really less about the gender that we are assigned at birth i certainly think gender is impressive in any way i don't think it's the job of innocent people or trans folks or especially children right to certify the depression that surrounds the genders a larger structural system for jobs regardless of their genitalia to sort of fight that's not for me is she was less about the gender that i was assigned to earth and that was about the fact that as i teach the diagnosis was discovered that my body was surgically modify stu the gender that was assigned and i'm not against surgical interventions or anything like that i'm just i myself personally and professionally

i'm just sort of frustrated with the fact that people's bodily autonomy as he can during that medical ization process absolutely i would say six strings is definitely not the cities exists it's a question of whom surgeries and the problem for intersects people is having surgery is imposed on us without our ability to consent to learn to say no i don't want that because were children even if we are old enough to say something that surgeries performed and we are lied to about what's happening to try to conceal that intersects status from sex personally are concerned about all the negative effects of the surgery that somebody didn't want being forced on them where's the trans folks the upcoming issue is in the reverse it's the issue of people seeking medical interventions into their body and being denied we have in common is that we all

believe that there should be autonomy about the sox applauding in that people should be able to decide for themselves who do i want any interventions that was the way that i'd identify and how my body functions and if i don't want them nobody should force them on me it's really interesting and i guess i've published around as fundamental question how is it that intersect people are subjected to interventions that they don't like trans folks had difficulty getting interventions they might want and of course usually exclusive categories rate is kerry eloquently described earlier there are intersects trans folks and in the world of course but it thinking about that distinction it intersects folks are subjected interventions and trans folks and taxes than without jumping through hoops when those troops are on fire and then there's glass their everything else it makes it so difficult i think it really speaks to the

power of the medical profession so terry if you consider this kind of surgical intervention to be advise any surgery into the sex characteristics of the body that they have not been given full informed consent that they have agreed to it on any conversion <unk> acceptable thing to do to somebody else so an example that i would give this election as a parent giving birth to a child and it had been in the sec's smell we wanted a girl oh baby please give my baby a sex change what our society that's not permitted you can make that decision for somebody else and yet when we ask him to sixty or put in a similar position or medicine sac streets and doctors and parents say you know what we're just gonna change that even though youre just a little child

that's accepted this is the casting public radio's lgbt q youth program produced by media for the public a new online ad out casting media dot org on this edition of casting you've purchased in andrea's talking with professor scary gabriel castello and george and davis about what it's like to be intersects and about issues faced by intersects people so carrie what does the city since health medical facility used as reasons to perform these interventions into six people there are i would say three things that dr tsai one they claim as some sort of medical risk to being intersects to they say that it's a social emergency and if they don't do surgery we will commit suicide and three describe how you slice the future find a partner they presumed somebody wishes to find a partner not a presumption

that is going to grow identify as heterosexual person just had penetrated virginal sex i was in all three of those are that doctors claims that somehow are atypical sex trees are dangerous and have to be removed are based on no evidence really limited evidence in some cases for things that are not pursues not intersect for example there's a claim that if you have an internal test is that your risk of developing cancer therefore those testy should be removed to protect a child from dying of cancer amount of elevated risk of his estimate is way less than the risk to pursue developing breast cancer if they remember sex what we should say ok no girl should be allowed to develop breasts because breast isn't a risk for

breast cancer we should we don't do that we can actually be a bronte intervene because we recognize that breasts are useful people in many ways well so i think that people in many ways and so there wasn't a person to sex so the idea that they have to try to modify our bodies to release are visible difference as justification for that that would be intolerable to live it's a social problem that you address social discrimination history social action you have an anti discrimination can embrace differences and we should say you all children who are born with brown skin augmentation so that they won't want to be considered medically necessary

it's not the way that we approach people cruelly or discriminate against folks were people of color so that one of the doctors which is us was i'll say no i understand that a conductor sometimes justify their interventions by pointing to and he stayed out there just doing what parents ask them to do and that perhaps parents would have difficulty finding with their child who has intercepts trains kind of continue present andrew sachs to parents three years

sea or phrase that way then the only response is to respond to any sort of medical recommendation if you will there is you know and in a really big problem and then you're likely to say look can you do to fix this big medical problem as opposed to presenting dangerous sex trade where i may have surfaced or as had been discovered is that natural variation which is what it is no there isn't your audience actually just suggest that the way which the diagnosis is delivered on sheets how so carrie when it senses that the internet shows and in surgery or whatever intervention that he ends up being entrapped in terms of the person's gender identity once that becomes apparent sarah

studies you see because you know a gender transition any knowledge <unk> good initially given the surgery they would have chosen so the answer is we don't know nobody is it i want a secular kerry said i don't think we have any really good evidence of that ira i do think that there's no reason to believe that gender dissatisfaction and or anything like that if we want to use a weird turn and is higher among intersects folks that it is out in the general population and i i don't know but we don't there would be an empirical question we don't really have good evidence

a little bit of suggestions it's laura likely for a person to be dissatisfied in the gender that they were assigned if their external genitalia were visibly into meteor and gauchos surgically altered there's a study now the comparison people who have partial outage an insensitivity to people a complete edged insensitivity syndrome and so these are people who are classified as having like kind of the same thing that's a typical vent their bodies except those who have completed insensitivity syndrome will be here to eat and genitals partial engaging in sin city

agree or not to have surgery john external surgery on more likely to knock out all in asset mr pursell theory about all i can say scientists are some theories eckstrom all genital surgery and so many people are always doctors looking at your genitalia much more likely for years osby questioning is there something wrong when you if you when you stood there are more not comparable in the ways that i get a number from there being a whole lot of us also says that most people you know comfortable so

simon we socialize they suffer do surgery sensitivity surgery i would say it's higher than the population because we are general lines of questioning gender assignment if certain aspects of it this is the fascinating will continue the discussion of an exhibition about casting thanks to both of you for joining us and means that's it for this edition about casting public radio's

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