In Black America; Jackie Wilson

From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Jackie Wilson was probably the most versatile performer vocally that there's ever been. I mean, you take a song like a 45, like a loan at last, slipped with, am I the man? And that's maybe one of the most versatile 45s ever released. But Jackie Wilson's stage performance included knee drops, splits and spins and lying on the edge of the stage and letting the women just rip his shirt off and boxing steps. I mean, he was just acrobatic, literally acrobatic. And there's only, I wouldn't even say a full handful of performers ever that are in that category. Of course, we all know James Brown and Michael Jackson and maybe a couple of others.

But they're all household names and Jackie still isn't getting the dues he deserves and he was the all around best showman. He was a, I don't know, more of a crossover artist and more mass appeal than anybody else. And he truly deserved the title, Mr. Excitement, and nobody has ever had it since then. Doug Carter, author of the Black Elvis, Jackie Wilson, published by Heyday Publishing in Corporate. In this comprehensive book, Carter compiles factual information on Jackie Wilson who has been unrecognized and unrewarded for decades. Many performers have been influenced by Wilson singing and performing styles. There's notably James Brown, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, and Prince. Known as Mr. Excitement, Wilson was important in the transition of R&B into Seoul. And it's considered a master's showman hence his nickname, Mr. Excitement. Wilson went solo in 1957 and recorded over 50 single hits that span R&B, Pop, Soul,

Dewop, and Easy Listening. Wilson was the singer's singer. According to Carter, Jackie Wilson has pop culture's most amazing story. America's greatest rock and roll performer, Wilson has been held by critics as the purest vocalist of his generation and the most dynamic performer ever. A two-time Grammy Hall of Fame inductee Wilson was inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1987. In 2004, Rolling Stone Magazine ranked Wilson number 69 on their list of the 100 greatest artists of all time. I'm John L. Hanson, Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. From this week's program, remembering Jackie Wilson with author Doug Carter in Black America. She's an amazing singer.

He handled it pretty well, but the mob, of course, and his affiliation with them, but Jackie did have a severe drug and alcohol drug and alcohol problem and some of the some of the amazing things that happened later in his life were just unbelievable. For example, he was at one time, the all-time box office smash hit at the Apollo and right around that same time, he was knocking out the crowds at the Copa. So he had New York City, maybe the hottest entertainment city in the world

wrapped around his little finger in his heyday, but at the end of his career, he had a warrants out for his arrest from Harleen, his second wife. He couldn't even go to New York City to perform or do anything without getting picked up. So, you know, he had his ups and downs. It's amazing. The guy with all that talent, all that going for him, you know, that went so far down and he was only 40, 41 when he had the collapse. Like Leroy Wilson was born on June 9th, 1934 in Detroit, Michigan. He was an only child. He began to sing in an early age. In his early teens, he formed a quartet called the Ever Ready Gospel Singers. Growing up in the north end of the motor city, Wilson was a habitual truant and a member of a game called the Shakers. He was constantly in and out of trouble. At age 16, as the story goes, he became a Golden Gloves boxing champion. After dropping out of high school, Wilson began singing local clubs. In 1951, Johnny Olders discovered

him at a talent show and as they say, the rest is history. In 1963, author Doug Carter first saw Wilson perform live. Since that time, he has followed the singer's career until his tragic death. Recently, in Black America, spoke with Doug Carter. Always was a big fan of Jackie Wilson's. Since I was a teenager, just growing up with Jackie Wilson music really, and followed his career all along. When Jackie collapsed in 1975, he never recovered. He was incapacitated for eight and a half years. I expected a movie or a book or a TV special or something to be done on him. Nothing ever happened. He died in 1984. At that time, I said, well, I'm going to do it. Of course, I was a radio personality not a writer or a publisher or a researcher or anything like that, but I did make the commitment back in 1984 and just slowly went about it. Of course, there were stumbling blocks along the way I had heard that they way back as far as 85 or 86, that there was

a movie production on his Jackie Wilson story. I thought, well, that's the end of my book. Nobody's going to want to read my book if they're going to make a picture, but they never did. Time went on and nothing. So I just finally got the book done and got it published. And why did you come up with the title? Well, the title to me just happens to be one of the most fascinating facts of the entire story. Now, I know a lot of people don't seem to like that title, but it is a true fact, the black Elvis. Jackie Wilson and Elvis Presley loved, admired and respected each other, and they both were influenced by one another. The first time they ever met in person, Jackie Wilson said they called me the black Elvis. And Elvis said, well, it's about time the black Elvis Presley met the white Elvis Presley. And Elvis Presley's been known to refer to himself as the white Jackie Wilson. So a lot of people just don't realize that Jackie Wilson is the black counterpart to the king of rock and roll, who is now known as the artist of the century. Elvis is

a household word, not only in America, but around the world. And Jackie Wilson has gone almost forgotten. So I thought that the title of the book might help bring more attention to a mystery excitement. Any particular reasons why Jackie has gone forgotten? Well, yeah, there's a lot of reasons to that, John. I'd say when people ask me that question, I say if I have to narrow it down to just one word, that word would be the mob. Jackie was tied in with the mob, which is another irony, because Elvis had the Memphis Mafia, which was really as high school buddies and friends and employers and employees. But Jackie was actually hooked up with the real mob, and they really keep people under their thumb. Now they controlled him his entire career all the way through his prime. And that had a major effect on the fact that he's not known today, because they kept him the hottest rock and roll act you could ever book on the road, working all the time. And of course, he was in the studio doing the music, but they really treated him like a cash cow and abused him. And Jackie

of course had his own problems with drugs and alcohol, and that made it a little more comfortable to be protected by the mob. But sooner or later, it just kind of wore out and he was ready to move on, but they wouldn't let him. How did you go about ascertaining the information that had included in the book? Well, it's just a lot of research. You know, I made a lot of inquiries. I met some of his friends, one of the guys that was actually his valley, and his personal valley, almost like his right arm man, by the name of Bill Frazier. I found him in Atlanta, and he gave me a lot of information. I have talked to family members and guys that were his buddies and MCs and ex-wives and things like that. And you go through libraries and archives and the like, just researching everything I can find on him. In your forward of the book, you relate, I assume, the first performance that you actually saw, Jackie Wilson, November 22nd, 1963, was just the faithful day that the late president

John Kennedy was assassinated. It's true, and it's amazing that other acts on the show that night included Red Fox, Moms, Mabily, Chuck Jackson, and a few others. And one of the guys from a local radio station that was here that night, I met him a couple of months ago, and he tells me that he saw Jackie Wilson perform numerous times because I think he was part of a promotional package and traveled a little bit around the state of Florida with Jackie. He thinks that was maybe one of the best performances Jackie ever put on simply because of the events of the day, all the performers who were all headliners in their own rights. By the way, Muhammad Ali, who was known as Cassius Clay, was there that night too. And Jackie Wilson, who was already a better performer, a stage showman than the rest of them, seemed to for some reason just even push it that much further that night. And he just put on an unbelievable performance. And I saw him subsequently a number of other times. And the other performances were very, very similar, but there was something special about that night. He just seemed to go what he

would call the knockdown dragout full-blown performance. Jackie Wilson was, was hell Mr. excitement. Could you put that into layman's turns of the excitement in which he put into his performance? Yeah, Jackie Wilson was probably the most versatile performer vocally that there's ever been. I mean, you take a song like a 45, like a loan at last, flipped with, am I the man? And that's maybe one of the most versatile 45s ever released. But Jackie Wilson's stage performance included knee drops, splits and spins and lying on the edge of the stage and letting the women just rip his shirt off and boxing steps. I mean, he was just acrobatic, literally acrobatic. And there's only, I wouldn't even say a full handful of performers ever that are in that category. Of course, we all know James Brown and Michael Jackson and maybe a couple of others. But they're all household names. And Jackie still isn't getting the dues he deserves. And he was the all-around

best showman. He was a, I don't know, more of a crossover artist and more of mass appeal than anybody else. And he truly deserved the title, Mr. Excitement. And nobody has ever had it since then. Down and round we go. Well, we stopped no one in the house.

And the band is looking on the stand. We're moving in, we're moving. I'll hold your neck with step back. Now I'm in the stands through the shower. So work out. Now, when I tell you the show, I want you to tell about it. Yeah, I'll remember the show. You mentioned also in the book that a lot of today's performers emulated Jackie Wilson. Yeah, that's right. Well, see, a lot of performers in my opinion are emulating Jackie Wilson and don't even know it. There's lists and lists of performers that are influenced by Jackie Wilson. Of course, the obvious one is Michael Jackson. Of course, Elvis, we all know about. But there are other artists that were influenced by me. And I really believe some of them don't. But there are other artists that were influenced by me. And I really believe some of them don't even know it because they might have been influenced by somebody else who was emulating. Yeah, trying to emulate Jackie. Jackie grew up in my home town of Detroit, Michigan. Tell us about his earlier upbringing.

Well, Jackie came from a divorced family. His father, his real father, his natural dad was an alcoholic. And Jackie, as I think I mentioned, had drugs and alcohol problem. But his dad had Jackie out on the street corner as young as six years old singing on the street corners for wine. And so I think anybody that hears that can say goodness, you grow up in Detroit, a rough area. And your dad's got you starting drinking at six. It's hard to turn something like that around. But he was a tough kid. He was a good looking kid. He was a popular kid. And he had the gifts of being athletic. And he got into boxing. And he was a pretty good boxer. But he was also gifted vocally. So he's a guy that took both of those things and put them together like nobody else. Had you had an opportunity to come up with a definitive conclusion on the Golden Glove story? Well, I guess if you read the book, I put pretty much what everybody said. But I think the real story is

he was a boxer. I don't know if he boxed Golden Gloves or not, but he was not a Golden Gloves champion. I think he did turn pro. And I've heard different variations of how many fights he had and how many you won. Somebody said he had like 10 fights and only won a couple of them. But he was a fairly good boxer. And his mother, of course, didn't want him to do it. She was totally opposed to it. And she's the one that introduced him to a Billy Ward, a Billy Ward in the dominoes and got him to pursue that career, which was great for all of us. Little is known of the relationship Jackie had with Barry Gordy. And Barry Gordy being instrumental in that he wrote some of Jackie's earlier hits. Yeah. He wrote the first six of them as a matter of fact. He wrote Lonely Tear Johnson to be loved. They met at a club called the Flame Show Bar in Detroit. Barry is a former boxer too. And Barry was an aspiring writer and they hooked up just about the same time Jackie had signed with Brunswick.

Jackie is in a way directly responsible for the very existence of Motown. That I mean, Jackie's manager would not let Barry Gordy have credits for the B sides of the record. You know, they were always cheating the writers and the performers back in those days. And I guess maybe they still are. But Barry finally just had enough of it. And he said he demanded he wanted the B side. He wanted credits for the B sides. He wanted his music on the B side. And Nat Tarnopol, Jackie's manager said tough. Jackie's a star. We don't need you. And so Barry split ties with him and even asked Jackie to go with him. But by that time, I think the mob already had him and he was pretty well entrenched with Brunswick. So Barry started his own record company which was Tamala and eventually became Brunswick. So Jackie really was a part of the reason Brunswick existed, but he never worked for them. Some wish to be a king or queen. Some wish for fortune and the fame. But to be truly, truly truly

love is more than all of these things. Some want to kiss. Some want to miss. When you're away. To hear from each day. To be loved. To be loved. To be loved. What a feeling. To be loved. To be loved. To be loved. To be loved. To be loved. What a feeling. To be. To be loved. Who was some of the performers in which Jackie admired? Well, Jackie, he liked

he loved Clyde McFatter. Right. He liked I think the Dixie Cups and some gospel singers. He liked some of them. Roy Hamilton was one of his favorites. When Elvis came along. He really got into the success of Elvis and if anybody ever, if you get a chance to hear the CD, Baby Workout, just listen to that cut love train. You'll just, it reeks of Elvis and a lot of people say the very first hit he ever had reek petite was an Elvis take off. So he was definitely influenced by Elvis Clyde McFatter and a, you know, a bunch of them. And the thing about Jackie was though, he could see something or hear something he liked in a performer and just take it to a higher level. He could see a dance step or hear a style of singing and just do it better than what the

original artist was doing with it. Jackie played a long time on the on the Chitlin circuit. You didn't call it that in your book. But how did that help nurture Jackie becoming the star which he became? Well, it must have been an oversight. I thought I did mention that, but I'm not sure how that nurtured him. He just, he was a workhorse. He was the original hardest working man in show business. Eventually James Brown seemed to have gotten that title, but Jackie wasn't around in a long enough to do anything about it. But he was the original hardest working man in show business and played clubs in the Chitlin circuit, circuit, I guess all around the country. And in a gave him a chance to be exposed and drive the crowds wild. Jackie being married didn't have to participate in military service. How did that relationship work out? Well, what happened there, this is really kind of a funny story. I don't believe this is actually in the book, but Jackie was I think maybe late teens are close to 20 and decided things weren't

going right for him. He thought he joined the army for a couple of years and talked his best friend, Jimmy Smith, and to do it too. And they both joined and were admitted in the service. Well, Jackie changed his mind. He wanted out. And his mother somehow helped him and went to talk to the recruiters and said he's already got a wife, a baby, and one on the way. So they let him out because of the hardship. And his poor best friend didn't get out. He had to serve. When did you come up with the photographs that include in the book? All over the place, the archives. They're hard to find. You know, and it's amazing how expensive they are to use. I thought I was going to cram pack the book with photographs. There's about 20 pages of them as it is. But they're just enormously expensive. And I did do all the expense on my own. So I had to limit them to what I thought was fascinating. And I got them from archives, from Canada, from England, from all over the country. Who were some of the neighbors of Jackie who went

on to fame and fortune in the entertainment industry? Me and I can Detroit. Yes. Well, gee, that list is incredible. Smokey Robinson. I think the four tops. What was his name? Levi Stubbs. Are we the Franklin's from Detroit? Little Willie John was one of his best friends. And there's a weird story there. They were tight buddies. And Jackie discovered that little Willie John tried to hook him on heroin. And I got maybe little Willie John with jealous of Jackie or his success or something. But those are some of the people that he grew up with in that area. Once Jackie became infamous and famous, the work schedule seemed to be a little much. And that's when he started to delve into more alcohol and drug abuse. Yeah, that's pretty true. And he did become pretty notorious for showing up late to those shows. As a matter of fact, Ed Sullivan had Jackie on as many or more times than any solo male singer. I think in the history of the show. And actually quit asking him back because he repeatedly showed up late.

Either for the rehearsals or the shows themselves. I got to a point where he was such a hot act that he was a little too cocky. He thought I'm Jackie Wilson. As a matter of fact, gorgeous George, the MC, the famous MC, was favorite. And I met him and know him. And he said, Jackie would just sometimes just say, I'm Jackie Wilson. You know, he was just that full of himself. So I guess Jackie definitely heard himself in some respects. But so do most of them. Why was it important for you as an author to parallel the lives of Elvis and Jackie? Well, because to me, it's just incredibly fascinating. It's something people for the most part don't know because Jackie's heyday was the late 50s and early 60s when the racial situation was much, much different. Today, we have names like Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan. You know, names like that are household names. But if those guys, if Tiger Woods had been born and hit his stride in the late 50s and early 60s, we would note Tiger Woods.

So I paralleled because they were the same age. They're only seven months apart in age. A lot of people don't know that. And they were tight. As a matter of fact, GC Cameron, former singer of the lead singer of the spinners, said that he was a neighbor of Elvis' and Beverly Hills. And he said, Jackie and Elvis were tighter than a hatband. And people don't know that. And people don't know that they copied each other's vocal styles, performing styles, clothing styles, hairstyles. I mean, it's a much bigger connection than the general public is aware of. How did you come up with the chronology of the chapters and naming those chapters? That's just a work and process. Some of them might have been changed from time to time. I had a writer help me and she had some titles. And I, you know, changed a couple of them like, I love the song, Am I the Man? So I wanted to incorporate that. I used that title and the my original title of my book way back in 84 was My Heart is Crying, the Jackie Wilson story. Because those are the lyrics he was singing from Lonely Teardrops when he collapsed on stage in

1975 on the Dick Clark Good Old Rock and Roll review. But for years and years, I just thought, man, that title is just too sad for Mr. Excitement. And at one point, it just dawned on me that, man, he loved Elvis, Elvis loved him. I think they both would like that. And it might help get the book and the story out to the public a little faster. It's an irony that Elvis and Jackie, particularly, they differ caused by heart problems. Yeah, I guess they both had, you know, drug and I don't know if Elvis had alcohol problems too much, but they both indulged in life too much, obviously, because they both Jackie was 41 when he collapsed and Elvis died of that heart failure at 42. Do you think Jackie would probably still be alive if he wasn't involved with the mob or the excessiveness of his drinking and drugs? Yeah, he probably would have been. And I tell you something that's very interesting about that is that, you know, my book and a lot of people compare Jackie to not only Elvis, but also Michael Jackson, but there's an old talk show

hosted in New York City's been around the original talk show guide Joe Franklin TV and radio. We interviewed Jackie back in his prime and hey, Dave, he feels that if Jackie were alive today, he'd be 66 right now, that he would be on par with Frank Sinatra and Billy Eckstein. And you talk about a wide range of versatility, man. That's incredible. So yeah, I think he's still be strong today because he had that voice, even if he couldn't do the knee drops and the split and the spins and so on and so forth. He had a voice that he has millions of fans who never even saw him perform live. I've been speaking with Doug Carter, author of the Black Elves, Jackie Wilson.

If you have questions, comments or suggestions asked your future in Black America programs, email us at jhansomhans.org at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can get previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I'm John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

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