Insight; Frances Schreuder

In many ways the case remains an enigma difficult for the average person to reconcile with their own values. The sheer complexity of a family in crisis. However others say the case is not that complex at all. They see a woman driven by greed ordering a death to ensure her financial security. But broad brushstrokes failed to accurately paint the portrait of a Utah family marred by tragedy. A tragedy that reached a crescendo if not a climax in this Westside Salt Lake City Auto Parts store seven years ago. It was in the cluttered confines of this warehouse that the life of millionaire Utah businessman Franklin Bradshaw ended violently on the morning of July 23rd 1978. Bradshaw was a frugal hardworking utang who had fashioned a low profile but lucrative series of holdings built on a chain of auto parts stores an energy leases at first blush the murder appeared to be the aftermath of a robbery attempt. But later investigators and prosecutors stunned the state by identifying family

members as the key suspects in the murder. Eventually Bradshaw's grandson mark would be charged with shooting Bradshaw in the back on that Sunday morning. In a highly publicized trial Mark's Reuter would be found guilty of second degree murder in the death of Franklin Bradshaw. Then the State mounted its case against the person they identified as the mastermind behind the murder. A person they claim was motivated by financial greed. Francis Reuters patron of the New York guards was charged with ordering her son Mark to kill her father Franklin Bradshaw. Schneider's trial was dominated by the testimony of her son who claimed his mother forced him to gun down Bradshaw. Prosecutors wove a compelling and chilling story of family allegiances and fears that culminated in the execution of a patriarch for inheritance. Francis Reuter never offered a word in her own behalf aside from a plea of innocence. She was found guilty of first degree murder in 1983. Five years after the murder

of Franklin Bradshaw. This summer the Bradshaw Shrader murder case became a best seller. Two major works exploring the complexities of this Utah family hit the bookstores at mother's request by Jonathan Coleman and Nutcracker by Sheena Alexander. Both were serialized in newspapers and neither contained a direct word from Francis Reuter. Through the two years of her imprisonment at the Utah State Prison and a brief time at night a whole Correctional Center she has refused to publicly discuss her case or her life. Tonight that silence is broken. The trial process obviously is over. The appeal has been filed and argued and we are just well awaiting the decision of the Utah Supreme Court. We feel that this is a good time. There have been two books written about Francis and after they were published it became our judgment that it was only fair that she given she have an opportunity to speak and give her

side of the events that led to her conviction. There were no ground rules for the content of this interview other than the agreement that it would be an unedited exchange recorded at the Utah women's correctional facility in Salt Lake County. The interview was recorded Saturday October 12 1985. Joining me in the questioning was KQED Maggie Sinclair all through the trial and the aftermath after your conviction incarceration at the Utah State Prison. Not a word from Francis writer about the events of her life about the events leading up to the death of her father about the relationships that have been so well talked about in publications and in the media. Why the reluctance to speak. This is right or until now. And why the decision to speak out now. I wanted to like to speak out at my own trial. I wanted to take the witness stand especially if Mark testified and I informed my lawyers of this at least six

to eight months before the trial. And I was promised that I could. Take the witness stand. However just before the trial they told me that I could not and they did not give me a reason. Why I could not take the witness stand. And then I have yes in the face of the publicity especially the publications of the books. People obviously notice that for this ish writer's viewpoint was not represented in those in those books. Why not speak out why not talk to the authors Why wait until now to put your side forward when so many people were talking about you. Well that's what I'm starting to do today. I've decided it's time for us. Let's go back to the title for just a second. You said you wanted to testify and you were not told why. Did you ever find out why. No. Do you wish now that you had. I do. Because I feel that there are many important things that need to be said. I feel

that there should have been witnesses for the defense at my trial. There's another side of the story and there were facts that were not presented and they need to be. And if I didn't take the witness stand and there were no witnesses for the defense there was no way for that to get out. One of the things that obviously you're prepared to respond to is the image that's been created of you in two books and I speak of Jonathan Kamens book at mother's request and Shane Alexander's book Nutcracker. In those books perhaps even created by the prosecution during your trial is the image of Francis Schroeder who is cunning who is manipulative manipulative and ultimately who was deadly. Now given the material presented at the trial given the fact that there have been books that put forward evidence sustaining that image seemingly evidence does exist to paint that picture of you. How do you react to that characterization of yourself in the books by the prosecution. I'm not the kind of a person that's represented in those books. How did they get your role.

Well the books or print are mainly the information from the books came from the prosecution the prosecutor's office and from my sisters. Both of my sisters have been consumed with hate. And hatred for me most of their lives. Can you explain why. Why I don't fully understand why. I think perhaps it was because they both seem to feel that I was my mother and father's pipped. My sister spend I would say. My one sister was obsessed with money. She spent 30 years concerning herself with my father's money. She spent. Several years working with the prosecutor's office long before Mark's arrest explaining that I was the one who was guilty and trying to bring about my arrest.

Will be in the books too it talks a lot about your financial dependence on your parents and what kind of a relationship that created. The fact that you needed apparently money from them in order to live the lifestyle you had in New York. Was it possible and it did become impossible in those years prior to your father's death for you to live the way you wanted to in New York without your parents support and financial support in the first place. My lifestyle was not the way it was depicted in the books. It was not a doll I lived in a middle class neighborhood. I had three bedrooms. The biggest expense we had. Was for the children their schooling and the second was taking them to the seashore in the summertime. Quite often throughout my whole life I have. I either worked even as a teenager. I used to babysit. I used to work I spent years working for my father. I would get summer jobs working for an accountant. To make my own money.

Even when I went back to college. I worked and bought my own clothes and paid for my own transportation to college. All these facts were never brought out and. I did have two very very painful marriages. Rather than bother my parents I even sold jewelry. I sold my own jewelry. I sold my own stocks that I have own since I was a child. Rather than impose on my parents I was too proud to do so. This has not been brought up. Yes my parents did help and I'm very happy that they did so at the trial though this was an overriding. Assumption that this created some of the rift between you and your family with your need for money. What where was that information coming from. My sisters. Let's move to another consideration something that really didn't come forward in your trial but was much rumored about and that was the rumor. Of a secondary will drafted by your father Franklin Bradshaw. That

would eliminate you from any type of inheritance that was discussed by employees who worked for Mr Bradshaw. It was never really produce I don't believe but obviously it was used as some type of indicator of a motive on your part that you were going to be written out of the will and that you and your family allegedly acted as in response to that. Where was your awareness of any attempt by your father to write you out or disinherit you so to speak. I don't believe my father would have ever disinherited me. I did not believe he intended to. When I came to Salt Lake for the funeral I was told by my sister Marilyn Reagan my mother and I were told that there was a new will. We went to see Hermann wood with whom he's the accountant here in Salt Lake a professional man who had been working very closely with my father for about four or five years. He we had a long conference

with him that week. He sat down and explained to us what they were working on and what they were planning it basically involved structuring my father's businesses through certain tax shelters. As a matter of long range planning there was no new will there was no contemplation of a new will. My father I have a sister Elaine who has been an avowed anarchist since 1963. Her beliefs run contrary to my father's beliefs. My father was a very conservative Republican. And. In spite of all that my father would have never disinherited her. It was completely against his character. Furthermore the rumors about a new will come from my sister. Years before she had. Together with one of my father's employees

tried to convince my father to. Have her take over his estate and run his businesses and that failed. It was almost like a family joke it had been going on for 30 years. I found out after my father's death that my sister together with Doug Steele and Nancy Jones. Had been attempting the same thing. My father would not have done this with you because if he did it would he have threatened all he was capable of threatening to. Yes in nineteen sixty eight he wrote to me and he was angry at that time. He said I'm going to disinherit you. I think that parents are capable of doing this you know of using this is a leverage over their children. But my father would have done that. But my father neither Marilyn regen nor did still possess the skill or experience to run all those businesses. And when my father wanted his affairs taken care of he always went to rational people.

He went to a reputable law firm in Salt Lake for his will. He then went to Herman wood a professional man in Salt Lake to handle his affairs. So you just don't think I really want you to. Oh no and unfortunately Herman would die in the spring of 1992. And I wish he were here because. He will be able to verify that it's not true. Let's talk about your father for just a minute. Certainly a portrait has been painted of you in the books and so forth but also of your father. We've been told that he was driven but he was ambitious. He was a businessman whose whole commitment was to his business enterprises. And that drove him away from his family. Is that a fair characterization of your father. No it isn't. Tell us about your father. My father was very ambitious and he did not certainly did not spend as much time at home as perhaps other fathers do. But he was a very caring person. He cared about his family he took an interest in what was going on.

When I was in school I went through several years in which my grades were terrible. And I thought there came home and he sat down with me and talked to me about my grades. And. Tried to give me a pep talk and encouraged me to to do better and he made me promise and I kept my promise to him was that a promise that if you did really well in school he would be going to send you to any college you want to know is that daddy used to no no no that was you know. He asked me to improve my grades it was for my own self interest. And he took that care he took that concern. That extend into the Tolly you are an adult. Yes yes it did. As an adult I have a regret that I was not able to spend more time with my father. In Nineteen sixty seven I was in Utah and my father came and talked to me and he said.

How sorry he was that he did not spend more time at home with the children. And of course once he was older he wanted to spend more time. Unfortunate by that time we were all raised and we had families of our own. What about your mother again going back to the books particularly Jonathan Coleman spoke at mother's request. The portrayal is that you manipulated your mother to kind of end run around your father to gain the financial support that you needed to live. From day to day in New York even to this day she continues to pay. Her legal bills. In spite of the fact that you've been tried and convicted of ordering the murder of her husband. How accurate is that for trail of manipulation. Do you manipulate her mother. Have you been. No. I think the term manipulation is. That's a very strange term because. I think when a child asks her

parents for a doll that's a form of manipulation it depends on what you mean by that. I think every human being is capable of manipulation. My mother is a very strong personality. A very strong willed person. And if you think back carefully the way she's portrayed in the books is a very strong willed woman. She seems that this is whether like a woman who's. Desperate to keep her family together desperate to keep her family happy she's terribly concerned about her daughter's terribly concerned about you as her daughter. Some of the letters that are cited in The Book Show a deep level of caring a strong emotional bond that goes back and forth. And as such why is she so concerned to the point that she would do anything for you with us. Oh no no. Let's consider that if we've been talking about your relationship with your parents but. You obviously are a parent yourself. Did the relationship you had with your parents. Shape.

Or direct the relationship you had with your children what was a determining factor in the relationship you've had with your children. And a major influence. Well I think that. That's a hard question. Let's talk then specifically about your relationship with your son Mark. Prior to the events that led to the incarceration of both you and Marc. Before. The death of your father. How would you describe your relationship with your son was it close was it a close relationship. You know Mark had a very. It's. Mark had a very difficult childhood. When he was very young. His father was an alcoholic. He was beaten and he was abused as a child.

I obtained a separation from his father and attempted to get a divorce on the grounds of Cruelty to my children. Even after our separation the abuse continued because. Under the courts many were able to see their father seven days a week. The police were often called in and eventually the amount of visitation was reduced. The boys were found wandering in Central Park in the middle of the night. Their father would throw them out of a car in a drunken state in the middle of New York and leave them on deserted street corners. This is when they were. Up until the age of six. Let me ask you this is a very sensitive question. Do you consider yourself in the classic sense an abused woman during those marriages. Yes very much so very much so. I later remarried. Mark had a stepfather. And this is something that I regret very very much. Mark was

abused again. The relationship was very very difficult. One day I had to go to the hospital for major surgery. Prior to that I was beaten. And Mark was told he would have to return to America we were living in Belgium a foreign country the boy was helpless. And while I was in the hospital connected to tubes. Several days later Mark was found wandering the streets of Belgium. His stepfather had locked him out of the house and taken off for Switzerland. And this was a pattern of abuse that kept on. I regret that I did not leave sooner. When we returned to America Mark had become very nervous. He had become withdrawn and I tried to get him on his feet. To promote his own self esteem. He had become very hostile. He was very unmanageable.

He started to steal a great deal. He would steal my money at all. Always I had to lock my money up in a closet. He then became very adept at picking locks if I took money out of the bank to go Christmas shopping. It would get taken. Off. Mark became very very self-destructive and it was very sad. Prior to his graduation from Allen Stevenson school he was in ninth grade. He destroyed the whole photography lab together with another boy and it was a prior to his graduation from the Kent school in 12th grade. He went out and committed theft you know with the boys and of the stack store that they used. I had tried to get help for Mark some sort of. Family counseling psychological help and this was to no avail. I finally

did after he was arrested in Connecticut. As far as being domineering I couldn't get Mark to do the dishes yet alone something else. Did Mark them. And this is a pretty straight ahead question. Did Martin act completely on his own. Yes he did. And yet he testified against you in your trial. Yes he did. Have you reconciled yourself to that. Where does that fit now in your relationship with Mark. Oh. I feel a great deal of pity. For Mark. He had to take the witness stand. He had to perjure himself. In order to make a deal with the prosecutor's office. Board earlier release from prison in so doing he had to put his mother in prison. I feel that he has done

something terrible to himself as a human being in doing that. You just touched on this but let me follow it. To refute Mark's testimony. That maintains your innocence. But why would your son implicate you specifically. Why would he implicate you in the crime. If he didn't have a reason to. And if his reason was simply to save his own neck it doesn't seem like he did it years in prison. Why would he implicate you. As far as I know the county attorney's office. They made a deal with Mark. They took him out to movies to restaurants. My sister had been working with the prosecutor's office and I do have that proof since 1978.

She had stated that it must have been me that I would have told Mark to do it. The prosecutor's office gave him immunity. In exchange for testifying against me. Have you had any contact with him since your conviction. No I have not. His is not very far away here would you like to. That's a difficult question to ask. I honestly don't know I have not been faced with that possibility yet. If you were to see him today what would you say to him. I'm not sure. I'm honestly not sure. The rule is that the stories involving you and the entire Brachet family extend back over decades. The Utah society contribute in any special way when you were growing up did you top provide opportunities or was it a place

that you wanted literally to get away from and experience a different world when you were growing up. Were you happy with in Utah or you glad to leave Utah. I was happy in Utah. Oh. Very happy in Utah. I did go to college in Pennsylvania. I have had an aunt an uncle who lived close by and they came and visited us and. Encouraged me to apply to college there. So I did. I later on met my first husband during a summer vacation from college and married him. His home was in New York so I made my home there. Do you find yourself happier in New York. Was it a lifestyle or more to your liking. I like New York. I'm happy there. I'm also happy here. And yet did that distance contribute maybe to a split between you and your father. There are some letters where he he writes and asks you to come home and you knew you don't this

is after your marriages. Do you think that distance. Contributed to the. That's difficult to say I think many parents would prefer their children when they even when there are married would live closer to them. You can see in your business you know. I'm still having trouble dealing with with. What was portrayed in the books as kind of a break between you and your father of friction if you want to use that word between the two of you. Can you explain. Did it have something to do with. This portrayal of him as a hard working ambitious man and that maybe he had trouble reconciling itself to the fact that he would maybe not help explain that to me. I really don't understand. The two

personalities here and the problems between the two of you. I do not feel as though there was a break between my father and myself. That closeness that you described to us earlier continued. Oh yes and then where did it come from where did this idea come from. That information came from my sister's. Family life that you're displaying and discussing seems one that many people sitting watching this interview might say is completely normal. We all have little frictions with our mother we all have little functions with our father. We move away from home they'd like us closer. But someone who looks at this says this doesn't seem like just a normal family set of circumstances that there were some deeper fissures that existed between you know you and parents or perhaps you in

children. And I want to strike home on this and come very close to this. Are you in fact maintaining that your family is no different from any other family that might be on the block that you were completely normal in every respect and that there was nothing really to be greatly concerned about. Are you talking about my immediate family in New York are the family I'm talking about the general familiar relationship between you and your parents and between you and your children. In some ways it was not different I think than many families many American men work very very hard as my father did. Other families do have disagreements. They patching make up. It's not. I think that there was perhaps some things

about our family that were different there was an intensity. There was a certain amount of jealousy there was an undercurrent of hatred at times that our family and your mother as has pointed that out in a recent conversation she felt that at times the daughters didn't like each other. At times the daughters didn't like her at times that our daughters didn't like their father. Was there a certain unsettled miss about your family where there wasn't a real natural element of cohesion. I don't feel that our family was very cohesive as a total family and why not. We can have no doubt you've given a lot of thought. I honestly don't know the answer to that. You talked about hatred. What is what is that. I did. My two sisters. For many many years we gave an ultimatum to my mother

and said that if they want to have friendly relations with them that she had to sever all ties with me. This I think it's unfair I don't think it's fair for any child to put conditions on friendly relations with a parent. There was a great deal of jealousy. They seem to feel that I was the favorite. I don't think this is true I think was because I was so much younger. I think perhaps my parents might have been protective but I didn't feel like I was a favorite. But there was a schism because of this very serious. Yet. You signed letters at times to your mother signed the child. No one wanted ever. That's a pretty tough way to sign off when you're writing to your own mother. You really feel that you really feel that you were a child that no one wanted ever. I remember that letter I really felt it at that moment there were the circumstances that

brought it about because obviously there's a lot of passion that goes into starting a letter like that. I would have to read that specific letter. You don't need to remember that that time. I would have to review that letter and I could become. You've been in prison for two years. Yes you have an appeal pending but meantime you are here. Have you adjusted to being in prison. I feel that so I've adjusted very well. There have been some reports you were sent to Idaho for a time. What was that an indication of some problems. I'm not so many women were transferred to Idaho. We were overcrowded. I'm not sure of all the reasons for the transfer there were many many reasons given. Not necessarily every woman who's an inmate at this facility comes in with the

notoriety and the media coverage that Francis sure did in there certainly was a big issue made of the estate of Franklin Bradshaw and the amount of money involved as a result. Do you feel that you were when you walked in here you were marked in some sense as being a high highly wealthy woman in a New York socialite who was walking into a women's correctional facility and there could four could be taken advantage of. If people try to take advantage of you. Well I think that in a person anyone could be taken advantage of. Even if you have a little bit of money. But we're basically all out of the same thing no one has any more than anybody else as far as for example we all have the same property list were all the same only the same amount of property in our rooms. And it does make it difficult for people to take advantage in some ways a prison life is structured in such a way that it makes taking advantage of another

person very difficult. It's not impossible but it's very difficult. Did you feel that the other inmates felt comfortable with you. Coming from a very different background as you do. At first I don't think so but later on yes. Let me shift gears back because we've talked almost exclusively about one of your sons and one of your sons. We haven't mentioned Larry Larry Bradshaw now a young man who's having a difficult time in his own right and we were just in society. What went wrong with Larry in your standpoint from your perspective. Obviously you had two sons that you cared for and the environment which you've already talked about was not an easy environment. Did you feel there was a certain point where you had lost control of your sons that they were beyond your control. Yes can you give an indication to become really in their lives. And with Larry's specifically how might you have noticed that Larry was perhaps

beyond your control as a parent. When he was 3 years old. He was no longer able to. Function the way other boys do. He had to be placed in a special school. He was mentally disabled and handicapped and he was diagnosed as such. What would you change about that time and what what needed to be done that wasn't done or was it out of your control. I don't think well. I was told it was curable and time has borne that out. I think. It's difficult I think most parents think that there's something they could have done a more or they should have done and this will always bother me. Did you think at that time about institutionalising. I did not want to do that. I wanted to keep them in the family setting as much as

possible. Talking about your sons about your life about your relationship with your mother and your father certainly this is not the average scrutiny that the average American experiences in their normal family setting. You foresee certain circumstances had been singled out for a great deal of media scrutiny a number of media operations wanted to talk with you to have the opportunity to explore some of your background but obviously Mr. Schneider you are the center of a great deal of attention certainly during your trial a highly publicized trial. Now two major works and the relationships in your family that were published this summer. And the difficult thing for the average person to come to grips with is what it's like to be in the center of such scrutiny to be there if you will as the central figure in a highly publicized trial. Can you recall the experience of going through that trial. Obviously you will not never forget that. What were your reactions as you were there and literally the focal point of media coverage as you came

in the court as you sat in the courtroom and as you exited the court each day. It was very painful of course. I even as Mark thought it was so painful that I would almost play I would play a mental game with myself and I would find myself constantly thinking about the people that I love not my fans. I would focus my mind on what to me were beautiful thoughts because what was going on was so ugly. And I think because of that I was able to maintain my tranquility and my calm. When you were in the court one of the first things that you had to come to grips with in the court setting was your son on the witness stand. Indicting you in every sense of the word for ordering the murder of your own father. And you were confronted with that and you were I with your own son. Can you recall the impact of that. What that moment was like. Yes. It was very shocking. I was shot

on. I felt a great deal of pity for him. He had made a deal with the prosecutor's office. To testify against me in exchange for favorable consideration for his release. But in doing he had perjured himself and I felt that he was doing a terrible deed to himself as a person. So I felt a great deal of pity I still do. But frankly at that point did you then ask your attorneys again if you could appear on the stand and they still said no. Yes. What's your reaction to. The defense if you will you received during your first trial you brought in one of the higher priced defense teams that were available Michael Rosen your mother has the knowledge pain which she considers a great amount of money for the defense that you were rendered.

Kind of fair shake did you get during that first trial or are you saying the trial was not a fair hearing. Not a fair consideration of the evidence. What were they missing. What was missing from that trial why didn't Francis Reuter get a fair shake. Because I felt that I should take the witness stand in my own defense. I thought that there should have been witnesses for the defense. There were no witnesses. In some respects I have bit on that jury. I might have found myself guilty as well. I did not feel that they were provided enough information to collaborate on. Let me follow up with then. In addition the witnesses were fed information they were given immunity from prosecution and there was nothing from the side of the defense that was very little. That all contributed to an aura around the trial and or that the

media was quick to be drawn to. Pay very close attention of the legal proceedings to when you were charged when the trial began. And certainly your conviction and sentencing. How was the media treated you in this day. I'm not talking about the publication of the books or I'm talking about just the coverage that your case is received. Well it's been very very unfair on the other hand. The media can only work with what it's been given and it's been given only one side of information. I've been portrayed in almost like it as something out of dynasty which is something the American people are fascinated with it in the water some of it out of James Bond. Words like heiress and socialite. Mastermind. These are all words that interest people catch their interest and. And yet they're not they're not essentially truthful or

honest. You know the words but the media can only work with what they've been provided. So it has been one sided. The whole image of socialite heiress money that whole aura of. Privilege and money that has surrounded you. Has has created kind of an attitude or at least an attitude that I see where people are saying why did she want so much. Why couldn't she just come back like the rest of us and. Live a more modest life. Are we working with two things here are we working with. An image that was incorrect and then an assumption that was incorrect. Was there nothing for you to cut back from. If the assumption is that this crime was committed. Out of greed I believe that is an error. I had nothing whatsoever to gain by my father's death. In

order for me to gain anything my mother would have to have died as well. I received not a dime on my father's death. My father's will states that everything goes to my mother. If I were a mastermind if I was so completely ruthless and un called a cold uncaring and greedy. My mother would have had to die as well. I did inherit. Afterwards but that was only because my sister sued my mother. They held up her living allowance in a court until she agreed to divest herself of some of her properties during her lifetime. I did not sue my mother however because of that I did receive some inheritance. It. Is Great such an overwhelming characteristic that this is what people have to relate to when they look at you they see Brachet they see money until all they can see is she must have been involved because of greed. That's what people assume yes.

Why. Mrs. shorter why would they single you out. If there were other daughters if if there were problems with your children your sons and perhaps their interaction because you do acknowledge the fact that your boys were involved in a great in a theft of a great deal of money. From your mother and your father in the summer before the death of your father correct. You do acknowledge yes. If that exists why are they dragging you into it that you're basically saying that there's no reason for you to be a dog you don't have those motives you don't have those outlooks towards your parents you would never be that type of person. Why then have they apparently barked up such a wrong tree and dragged an innocent woman into something like this if you have no involvement whatsoever. None of those motives. It seems like our justice system would protect you from something like that. Are you saying the system has failed. While you. Are with you that long is always evidence of all these books so misguided. Have we just followed the wrong trail so incessantly the now we're

committed to something that was the most agree just mistake we can make. Why you. How could we be that wrong. And that seems like a bottom line question. How can we get you someone who set you up. I really don't. Could you repeat that question. How can we be so how could the press be so how could the prosecutor be so. How close. Took awhile to go on that had no other information to go on. None whatsoever. But prosecutors the prosecutors just are you saying the prosecutors found a convenient. Avenue to pursue. My sisters worked very closely with the prosecutors. For years there's one discovery motion which.

Was in charge of the investigation had 50 conferences with my sister. And this is not including telephone conferences basically saying that your sister was out to get you. That's correct yes. What about someone like Richard Barron's. Was he out to get you to Richard Barnes wanted to save himself from a first degree murder. He was charged with first degree murder. I didn't structure the justice. And so you were the easy person for him to hang everything else on. Yes and at a certain point he started working with my sister as well. This is an amazing conspiracy if you think about it if we talk about your family your sisters your son and your friends. What did they have to gain by your being convicted of murder. These were people who were very close to you at one time. What was their motive my friends. Well Richard Behrens. He was not. I did not consider him a

friend. OK. All right then let's just look at the family. What did they have to gain what do they have to gain by you sitting here in prison under first degree murder charge. My sisters have been filled with hate all of their life. My sister for 30 years one of my sisters had tried to have me disinherited by sitting in prison I am disinherited. For parole in 1996. That's a ways away. And depending on what happens with your appeal and everything else we thought about what your life would be like. If you're not in prison. Will there be some changes. What if you look down the road to that time when you walk out these gates whenever that happens. What do you see. I thought about the future. Yes. I want to somehow rebuild my life. And.

Get to be again with my friends and my loved ones. Just. To see. Where it is the path leads us. Is it back to New York your daughter's there and is in school still dancing looking forward to The Nutcracker. Apparently in this holiday season coming up does it lead back to New York as it lead back to attempt to rebuild a life that once existed. Well if tomorrow were 1996 perhaps at work it's hard to tell what the future will bring. Maybe it will not be back to the same time I might not have my daughter might not be living in. It's hard to tell about the consideration of all the members of the family. Is it beyond rational conception that you could bring the boys together and you could. Move your family unit closer together or is that just something that you have to shake your head and say it's past it cannot be reclaimed.

That's very very difficult. That's a very difficult question. Optimistically would you like to if you could would you. If you would could you I guess maybe is the best way to save for the hurts today. As you look at it right now today are the hurts today between you and the other members your family particularly the boys to ever be reconciled. On my part they say he would eventually like to see this happen if that were possible. What about your reaction then. We've talked about being the center of media scrutiny and talked about some of your objections to the books. You apparently did read at least one of the book side mothers requested by Jonathan Coleman. Your reaction to the book obviously you pointed out a number of areas we had deep reservations were they right or accurate in any area.

Did they provide accurate characterizations of anyone that you were familiar with. Do you have any positive feelings I guess basically no. To be perfectly honest I did not have to get with obviously this man approached and was interested in speaking with you. Why don't you think it was in your best interest why didn't you think it was in your best interest to participate in some project like that. Did you feel he was coming in to the project with a pre-determined viewpoint. Yes I did and that was one obvious guilt. You are the mother in that mother's request and therefore the results of the books were written on the presumption of guilt and what that bias in mind. I also had trouble prior to my trial and during my trial with the authors wanting to sit in on things like jury selection spending time with my lawyers during the trial. My daughter's pediatrician who was caught has contacted the school was contacted. I

did not feel that this was the proper approach for a serious writer and I think it was things like that in my opinion in a let me close the door. Might that a little bit of more openness though Evelyn itself to more accuracy. As you look back on it now perhaps in hindsight. There's a great fascination with you with your family with this whole situation starting back over eight years ago actually from from the time you were born. Have you thought about it. What makes you so fascinating and your family to the people why the books. Why all the media coverage. What makes this so interesting. Well as I said before their terms applied such as socialite and I'm not a socialite.

I do not consider myself a socialite. There are. As we mentioned before the James Bond type of characterization which American people are interested in. Then and this is fascinating people it sells books sells newspapers and magazines. If you don't like those terms if you don't like socialite and you don't like give me some other ones. You were very active in the New York society after a while there with the belly. There is a lot of money in your family. Give me some other words. I don't I can't think of a word to describe myself. I'm a homebody. I do not consider myself a socialite. Socialites go to an endless round of parties and a party for the sake of partying I have never done that. I will get together with small groups of friends. I did go to parties.

That were in relation to the New York City Ballet because I was on the board of directors and this was a field that interests me very much. We had parties for purposes of good will for raising money. And I did attend those parties that were related to a specific interest of mine. But I never and I have never gone to parties for the sake of it. Or just belong to a yacht club or a country club. In that sense I am not a socialite. I am very much of a homebody. After your conviction when your child went to the penalty phase you did your defense team did produce some witnesses to speak in your behalf. And my recollection is there were some very notable figures some very respected people from New York came and offered words in your behalf. Arguing against his right of the death penalty which is I'm sure something that. You were shocked to find yourself confronted with after your discussion of your case today. Let's consider first of all the fact that you did at one time face the death penalty. When you were in that

courtroom and you knew the court could go one of two ways where your life could be ended by the state of Utah what the state would identify as just cause. Or were some of the thoughts that went through your mind given given what we discussed this morning. There must have been one of the most incredibly trying moments of your life. Did you ever consider that the death penalty was a possibility. Oh yes yes. I think what got me through that. It was. Fate. I am innocent. I do have faith in myself. And. I think it was my faith that got me through that penalty phase. When the sentence came down that you were in fact going to be sentenced to life instead of receiving the death penalty and you were. Brought to the Utah State Prison. What was your reaction to the certainty that you were in fact going to be confined for a length of time

even though you have an appeal pending. You were facing incarceration. Was your reaction. Well it's very painful. It was very painful. As far as doing lengthy time is one thing that I have learned since I've been in prison is you do it one day at a time. I still have a faith that sustains me though. I have faith in myself even if my appeal should fail. I do have faith. And that does occur. You know I feel very much comfort by that kind of thing. What do you have faith in. I feel I have a faith that somehow or other I will be vindicated. I don't know how exactly or when but I have that faith. What's really what really matters to you in this world. My friends my loved ones home and family. Those are very dear to

me. As we wrap this interview up. There are some people who are going to be with us for for an hour. We will look at you. And probably say without equivocation. You've had your day in court. You've had your chance and the state has found you guilty therefore we should have a judgment against you. If you could respond to that type of person I would put that in front of you. What would you tell him. Or her. I have not had my day in in court. In the trial I did not take the witness stand in my own defense. No witnesses were presented for the defense. Witnesses were. One witness was provided with meals and taken out of prison and given dates movies. Taken to restaurants. Witnesses were fed information they were given immunity for their testimony. And my sisters worked with the

prosecutor's office. And even worked for my extradition long before the prosecutor even considered extradition for me. I hope. That. My appeal is successful and that I have a chance to have a new trial. So that I can have another chance at having a day in court. I feel that it's very very important to speak up on the witness stand. In court there's a lot that needs to be said and should be said that has never been said. My trial was a farce in many ways if I were one of those jurors I might have found myself guilty. With the information that was given to them. They did not have enough. And that's why one of the chants. Francis Shorter's appeal of her first degree murder conviction has been argued before the Utah State Supreme Court a decision is still pending. Her parole date is still tentatively set for 1996.