Woman; 126; Economics & The American Woman

No. Then Good evening and welcome to woman, recently in Vogue magazine. Elliot Janeway noted economist. Said women are the most potentially back dynamic force in our economy. We ought to see them as an opportunity not as an obligation. My guest this evening, agrees wholeheartedly and she

adds that there is no equality for women without economic power. With me is Elizabeth Forcing Harris and we will be discussing the economics of the American woman. Elizabeth Harris is co-founder and part owner of Ms Magazine. She was radio and TV editor of Newsweek. She worked for the Federal Reserve Board. She was Deputy Associate Director of the Peace Corps as well as one of its founders. She served under Presidents Johnson and Kennedy and she was recently appointed to the Consumer Advisory Council of New York City. I guess you've never had a personal employment problem. You just made me the job up. Welcome[laugh] thank you, glad to be here. Will you begin by reading a job description that was recently in Ms Magazine. I know it's a job that a lot of women have. A lot of jobs that a lot of women have and maybe it's one that we hoped was going to change requirements. Intelligence, good health, energy, patience, sociability, skills at least 12 different occupations, hours 99.6 per week.

Sorry, none. Holidays, none. Will be required to remain on standby 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Opportunities for advancement, none. Limited transfer ability of skills required on the job. Job security, none. Trend is toward more layoffs particularly as employee approaches middle age. Severance pay will depend on the discretion of the employer. Fringe benefits, food, clothing and shelter generally provided. But any additional bonuses will depend on financial standing and good nature of the employer. No health, medical or accident insurance, no social security, no pension plan. I guess in case people haven't heard; guess who had to say, that was a job description for a health plan. Unfortunately, that's what it is. Actually, that's a little bit of a cruel situation, I think there's one ingredient in there that we ought to mention, which is, hopefully some love comes into that. But there is no obviously, there is no monetary reward. Which is one of the whole problems

today and I think a major factor in the economy. Would you think, that if women were paid for doing housework, there would be fewer divorces. I do. You,really do. Yes, because somebody once said you cannot live on bread alone, love is necessary or you can't live on love alone either. And I think that if sometimes, love is a very fragile thing, as we many of us know and sometimes when things go a little awry, I think women [um] feel [um] more resentful, than might otherwise be the case when their love is denied them and that's their only source of reward. If however; they have a salary, they just might be able to say and get abridge some of those rough spots by saying "Oh well, it's a lousy job but at least the pay is pretty good". Do you think, you could give us an economic overview of the American Woman? Well, briefly let's maybe, I'm changing that word overview to a little bit of a profile but[ah], basically the

women "American Woman" today. Roughly, 50% of the I'm[um] talking about mature women and I'm not talking about internet girls under the age of 18. But,[um] roughly 50% of them; are a little bit less than 50%; are married and total dependence on their husbands.[ah] Another 50%, are married, and are contributing up to as much as 40% of the family income. [ah] All of those women who work however; on the average. There are a few exceptions, of course but on the average make only 60% of what a man makes for that same job. What this all adds up to is; that the worth of the women in the society is to the extent, that is valued at all is undervalued, and to the extent that housewives, are a factor. [ah] There is no they're ciphers, here,

nothings! That was my next question, because you say that you say the housewife is an economic cipher and I think you should explain that downstairs. Well, we live in a real live in a capitalistic pre enterprise society that There are some people saying it and [ah] who feel that this is the wrong kind of a society that's a whole different discussion and that's what we're in the society that we have today. Money is power, we measure everything we do by its monetary value. Someday that system may change, I won't be here! When it happens it's going to take a much longer time. As long as we have this system and I think it has many advantages.[ah] When you get right down to the bottom line; it's the value of something. Women however, who are housewives; and I don't want to give the impression that I disapprove of housewifing. I think it's a very important thing! I don't think there's anything any more important frankly than raising families and maintaining a home. But I think maybe, we ought to change the way that we evaluate it and that means

to get specific on this point! Women are excluded from all of the means of measuring[ah] the monetary measures of the society and they're not included. For example; in the gross national product they[ah] [um] don't pay any income taxes. So they don't show up there except as a dependent of their husband. On the same basis incidentally that the children are deductible. [Ah] They [cough] get Social Security only as a dependent of their husband;[um] so they don't show up there. They don't[ah] all, of the insurance policies cover women as a dependent of her husband. Unless some currently, we're being to see a few people beginning to sell insurance just to women. But basically, she comes under that other heading called spouse[ah] which is [ah] either and it's an adjunct to the insurance thing there is no measure there is no value. Of the. Worth. That women put into that work that I

described in that job description that I read a little while ago. The fact of the matter is. That if you measured. uh If you replace that woman her replacement value that is to say if suddenly she evaporated. And those 99.6 hours a week. Had to be filled by somebody else. Her worth is actually somewhere between 8 and nearly $14000 a year. Now say that again If you went out to replace a housewife this is a woman who doesn't work outside the home. And hired all the people to do all these different jobs. It would cost depending on where you live somewhere between 8 bout $8500 and $13500 a year so that women really and this is a figure incidentally that doesn't go into our gross national product. [Elkin] I was going to ask you why is isn't it figured in. [Harris] Just because traditionally we've never done it. Now this, I'm sure that the viewers to your program know a great deal about the history of the women's movement and of women role and status in life. But one of the major factors is is that we have ignored the value of of uh

women in the economy uh to our detriment I think. um Let me give you a and and We're beginning to pay attention to it. But we. let me let me just point out one thing that I think is sort of interesting in the last decade the last decade and a half roughly. um Forgetting the inflation factor thats hit all of those. uh Family income has increased. We've kind of patted ourselves on the chest and said this is um Terrific. It means that the standard of living in this country is getting better. We obviously as everybody knows in spite of our poverty problems have the highest standard of living in any country in the world. What's very interesting is however. That that, A large part of that increase in family income. Has been brought about by the number of women who have been pouring into the job market in the last since 1960 um And who have increased the family income. uh Have increased by their

wages. Unfortunately this has been measured. Not. As the input of women but of the fact that the family income has gone up at in in in, to all practical purposes the husband's income hasn't risen that much. But we still aren't measuring considerable contribution women make to um the uh economic health of the nation. [Elkin] So really the records of economic achievement are misleading [Harris] totally. They're misleading and that manifests itself in a variety of ways uh mostly and most importantly I think it manifests itself in terms of a woman's view of her own. I think that women do not value themselves. um As highly as they should which is expressed in phrases when a woman is, somebody says to you what do you do? And she says. Oh I'm just a housewife just a housewife look at that job description. It needs a dollar sign on it.

[Elkin] How much input do you think the women's movement has had as far as more women going into the workforce do you think it's responsible? [Harris] Yes I think. I think it's both cause and effect. um [clears throat] I believe that the women's movement in a sense. Was a response to a a change that was already taking place. Women were being forced into the job market. They they went in because they needed more money to keep up with this elaborate standard of living that we have. Our consumer society has given us. uh Ironically the more Household appliances that we invented jobs easing appliances etc. the more money you had to have in order to buy them, uh Presumably easing the house, the woman's work. The fact was that in order to pay for all those things she had to go to work to acquire them. It's kind of a vicious circle there but in any event. the uh the In the late 50s and then increasingly in the 60s women began to go to work uh nobody paid any attention. When they when we finally to stop look and to

count it turned out that more than 10 million women. Had poured into the job market. In the workforce between 1960 and 1970 that's a 70 percent increase in the number of women who'd gone to work. um I think that the women's movement. To a certain extent was a reflection. Of that. Change that this ah change in the the if if women went to work eight hours a day and then came home and kept their homes going their lifestyle began to change a little bit. They s- and they saw new things outside they acquired a whole new set of resentments et cetera and problems. The women's movement I think began to reflect that. indeed I think if Betty Friedan had studied. Economics at Smith instead of majoring in psychology. She would've approached her book her landmark book The Feminine Mystique in a different way and we might have had the woman's women go off on a whole new tact an economic tact rather than what it basically was which is a psychological tact anyhow.

Ah certainly I think that's where we, we're coming to an awareness of the economic consequences of the women's movement now uh And I think that. It as I said before it's part cause and part effect now the women's movement has raised a lot of conscious conscience consciences. And um You're finding such things as as the coalition of labor union women. Which was put together uh recently in Chicago. Ultimately we represent the 34 million women. Who are members, who are in labor unions, I mean are in in uh uh who who work but who are in- of whom only 5 million are in labor unions. We're getting down to the blue collar level now as far as women's liberation is concerned and this is an enormous consequence economic consequence to this country. [Elkin] Just one one question to get bacl for just one minute to the housewife question. Is anyone seriously considering that housewives be paid or is it just something that people joke around about in magazines and.

[Harris] I don't know of anybody who is seriously coming up with a with a viable plan. For uh paying Housewives. um I think that we're going to be. It's Coming up in tangential fields for example in the area of disability insurance just to give you a specific answer. Working women have great difficulty getting equal disability insurance that is to say the kind of insurance that pays you if you're sick when and cannot perform your job. um You can't possibly get that kind of insurance for housewives and yet if a woman gets sick her husband's got to go out. And hire. A housekeeper uh A number of people to to replace her. And he can't possibly buy any insurance to protect him against that extraordinary expense. Because you can't insure a job That has no value on it. Now That's one the awareness of these problems is beginning to. Permeate the uh

Atmosphere and I think there probably will be some changes but I know none right now that. uh No plans no viable plans to to pay women. What's happening uh Instead. Is that As far as The future projections are concerned women are going to start doing their own work. They're going to start earning their own salaries. The Bureau of Labor Statistics That uh Otherwise bastion of male chauvinism uh Projects that. All women. Of all economic, Class, if you will. Will, After 21 years of age spent 25 years. Of the rest of their life. Working. At a paying job. [Elkin] you know women who is in the home now with some children can expect maybe to work 25 years? [Harris] Every Every woman who is 21 years of age or older as of this moment. Everyone, Well I should- every woman who is 21 years of age and younger as of this moment. Can expend expect to spend at least 25 years of the rest of her life working. uh

We're finding this now in women over 40 who are going back into the job market in enormous numbers because their children are gone or raised and off taking care of themselves. uh the women. These are some of the most stable uh employees I might add. In the country but enormous numbers of of women of 35 to 40 are going back to work uh Once we. uh Solidify those jobs and they become an ex- an accepted factor in the economy we're going to have to keep feeding uh feeding in a supply of working people so that. It's going become a habit just as it is now. The, for the first time in the in history. Of. Humankind. The so-called housewife. Who does 'nothing' but. And I'd put quotes around that word nothing because it's a huge job of taking care of a home is in the minority among.

American women [Elkin] within edict Do you see the housewife is an endangered species then? [Harris] I think that's a very apt way of putting it. I do indeed think she's an endangered species. In that single role. mhm uh We hear an awful lot of talk and I don't I don't think anybody has all the answers for this I think this all ties into um all of the discussion that we hear about what is happening to marriage. uh Indeed we know that the birth rate has dropped to the lowest point ever. I guess 1.9 which is not even a replacement level. um We all know that the divorce rate is. Skyrocketing and I'm not here to try and. Say I have many many good ideas about how all of this is going to come out in the long run. All I can point to is the fact that. Woman owes it to herself to recognize her economic value to recognize that she is going to be spending an awful long time. I think 25 years is a long time. um In the job market and hopefully she will prepare herself to make the best of that situation and make the most money and

enjoy her work. And. Prepare herself for the kind of job uh that is interesting. [Elkin] Do you have any evidence that women are less capable in managing money than men? [Harris] No as a matter of fact the uh evidence such as it exists is to the contrary. women have been brainwashed, society has been brainwashed. To think that women don't know anything about money. A long history on that, But, Wall Street for example has suddenly discovered. When Mart was discovered they had begun to hire some women. The few who come down and apply for jobs are just securities analysts. Other kinds of financial middle level jobs they're finding that women are absolutely marvelous in this. Indeed perhaps even better than men. Now. I don't think that's I thought I would think that that's probably not accurate I think that they have gotten the cream of the crop and the few women who come down then they probably are better than the average man but certainly they've proved the point once and for

all that women are just as able to handle money as men are. [Elkin] Are We less well prepared do you think? [Harris] Absolutely. totally, completely, and congenitally uh hahaha Since the dawn of time since we invented money I'm sure it all happened back in the days with wompum and they said Baby Don't bother yourself about this wompum business this is men's work. But in any event it's come up or down through the society that that money is basically a man's province starts with. Children uh Little girl, one of the first things little girl learns, is that she can whittle her allowance If she's overspent it that way she can whittle her daddy into giving her an advance on next week's Allowance. But if his son comes along to him and says that he's spent his allowance on Thursday when it isn't, and he needs more to get him over until Monday his father will say to him, 'my boy you must learn about money and you're going to start right now' and that right at that point women begin to.

girls little girls. And women learn that they really don't have to take money too seriously that they can find other ways of getting it. And we've got to start teaching women uh To value money for themselves. It's a it's a very selfish undertaking. [Elkin] What are some specific things that you think can be done? [Harris] Well I think first of all I'd like to see the Girl Scouts for example organizations like the Girl Scouts. Set up a merit badge for banking. So you learn something more about banking and. And how money is managed than just the fact that you get a little passbook you can run around the corner and put something in a savings account that's about the extent of the average woman's knowledge of money. We need to start teaching uh Money courses in high schools for both boys and girls I might add. uh And then when we get into colleges we need to encourage more women to take financial courses. And to- now that's now that's the young student the young person who still has their education ahead of them. Otherwise I think women right now. uh

Should have a sufficient interest in their own welfare i.e. their own money. um To go to oh a number of banks are beginning to hold seminars and courses for women to teach some of the basics of money management. This is particularly true on the West Coast and I hope that's one of the West Coast fads that's going to move east soon, um there's a wonderful women out there named Dee Dee Ahern who's been running around up and down. uh The uh West Coast like a charged up fire engine uh lighting up banks to uh start teaching women what they should know about money we can all do that. Those of us who have a little bit more time can go to uh graduate schools take adult education courses in basic financial Management. We need to start reading the financial pages of the paper money isn't that hard we've just been conned into believing that it's a great masculine mystique. That's the masculine mystique that there's some mystery to it actually. It does. Financial, the financial world does have its own language but it's it's it's

a vocabulary a glossary that's easily understood once you pay little attention to. um There There is no mistake to it and women have got to start cracking through and looking after their own. Finances. [Elkin] You said you said at one point that women only know to save money. What did you mean by that? [Harris] Well don't you remember when you were in high school or probably in grade school actually at least that's what happened when I was and I'm sure it did to you that you learn about compound interest. I think that's about fourth grade in arithmetic or something like that. And that's about as far as most of us get and they always give the example of how savings. If you put a dollar in the savings bank with your little passbook and about that time some grandparent has opened up a savings account for you. So you start learning about compound interest and put a dollar or ten dollars or a 100 dollars or something in the savings bank and then they don't teach you anything else. And here are women left. uh Knowing that if you want to save money you put money in a savings account it'll pay so much interest compounded [Elkin] annually, semi-anually [Harris] for as long as, that's right.

As a consequence. uh Which is very bad for the economy. An awful lot of women who don't know anything more than that are putting their savings into savings accounts or savings and loan companies. And uh instead of perhaps using their money. uh In other ways it would be better for the economy to keep money moving and also would pay out higher interest rates for it. But an awful lot of money today is stashed away in savings account it all goes back to that. Little bank book you got in the fourth grade. We've got to learn more sophisticated ways of handling money as well So. [Elkin] what are some other ways that we shortchange ourselves? the pun is not intended [laughs] [Harris] It's a good pun. I think that it's uh we also. Well this is purely my theory but I think that we have gotten the idea that there's something very unfeminine about knowing about money. That it, uh It's an attack on our femininity to be able to sit down and discuss discount rates and balance

sheets and all those other. Kind of mmm Little suspects. uh Matters. That's that's ridiculous. It's what I call a don't bother your pretty head syndrome. But uh we need to realize that. Being knowledgeable about money. Is a very feminine thing. There is not a thing in the world the matter with it and uh Being able to sit down with a banker and discussing what is going to happen to what what your what state your accounts and being able to sit down with a stockbroker and talk knowledgeably to him is something we ought to be proud of. Now. One thing that is a problem is that very often men have the opposite attitude and feel that women don't know a thing about money. And that. Attitude is kind of conveyed to them. When a woman goes into a male stockbroker he kind of does. Eff- uh Effectively reach out and pat her on the head and said 'yes little lady what can I do for you?' which kind of sets up this, little woman, he's right at that point because most women say well I

don't know a thing about money but I have this $5000 that my great aunt Tilly left me. And I'd like to invest in something. Well that's ridiculous women ought to know to, ought to go and take a course in the stock market if they want to and then go ahead and talk to a broker about how to invest their money. We've just got to learn more about this. I didn't I sound like a tyrant tonight a schoolteacher something I didn't realize I was so sold on uh uh financed financial studies but I guess I am [Elkin] A lot of the male economists like John Kenneth Galbraith have recently become very concerned with women's part in the economy. uh What are they saying? [Harris] Well they have indeed. And this is going to I think. uh Help enormously to break into the consciousness of the nation about the worth of women um as you mention in the introduction Eliot Janeway has begun to write and even lecture on the subject. um He thinks that women Quite possibly are the most dynamic. New aspect in what is basically a rather sick economy at the moment.

Ken Galbraith, In typical fashion, who has coined all these other phrases that we use such as conventional wisdom etc. I think is inadvertently given this another one which is perhaps a much better way of describing what women do house wives do than housewifery. uh He Has come up with a concept that one of the things that's missing in the economy we measure The. Cost of Maintaining our levels of productivity that is to say what it costs us to create uh the goods and services uh that go into our consumer products but we never measure [Elkin] you have one minute. [Harris] the cost quickly. I'll give you Ken Galbraith word and it sums it up beautifully anyhow, The uh is is what happens to the consumer end of it and it's call consumer management we have to manage the use of all these products just as well and that really is a much better word for what housewives are doing. uh They're getting a a On the job on the job training in consumer management and I would or administration I

would hope that maybe out of this program and all the others that will come after like this and these thoughts that will soon be at least rating women as consumer managements. Of financially giving them a financial base Let's hope that happens. [Elkin] You think that will filter down? How do you thing that will take? [Harris] I think that could happen at the rate the women's going mo- the move- the women's movement is moving within another 5 years. [Elkin] Fantastic. What would happen if all the volunteer workers in the country stopped doing that tommorrow, you have 15 seconds. [Harris] If if all if Stopped volunteering?[Elkin] yes [Harris] our hospitals our schools our churches. uh Heaven knows what else would just would would collapse we need very much to give tax credits for volunteer work. Thank you very much. Goodnight from woman. Next week.