Woman; 350; Political Parties: Women's Clout

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good evening and welcome to woman. Tonight we're going to discuss the impact of women on our political system. With me is Carol Burris founder and president of women's lobby incorporated. Carol is on the board of the American parents committee the board of the Women's Campaign Fund and she is the founder of the National Women's Political Caucus. Also here is Susan told. Susan is director of the Washington Institute for Women in Politics. She is a political science professor and author. She is co-author of clout women power and politics. Susan is a board member of the women's backup but there's the Maryland. Welcome to both of you. Who is the most powerful woman leader in the world at the moment. Well I think it's Indira Gandhi and I had a very interesting experience last week when healthy support for death was telling a group of women about a conversation she had had about five hours before Isabel Peron was deposed by the

horn to witness about her own. These two very powerful women and we had a long discussion about the importance for women and making sure that people understand that they are in charge of the country is about her own thought that she had never created that feeling that she had never been able to realigned priorities the military always took a large share of the budget and that when she went to the media she was portrayed as foolish highly emotional and very unstable and that if she had it to do over again that she would throw her enemies in jail because then they would be afraid of her. That Indira Gandhi had done that was a way of women establishing from the first that they intended to seek power in the same way that men had and that therefore she probably unions. And interesting there you have it is interesting. What about this country. Is there one woman who really stands out. Do you think. As I do so I lean to having a go at the kind of leadership.

Strangely enough we're there you know there was a prime minister of Scotland you have Indira Gandhi and of course you know one of the points we make in cloud is that women are more humanistic in public office than their male counterparts at least at this point in time and of course we do get blamed occasionally for Indira Gandhi who is increasingly repressive in her own role as prime minister I think one of the outstanding women leaders in the world is Golda Meir who is who has suddenly been recalled to office after out of her retirement as one of the only public figures in the country that could bring together all of the warring coalitions. We see we haven't developed that kind of leadership in this country we have some very outstanding women but none that have been able to to at least match some of the male their male counterparts. But thank you teams. You know when picked up in the media and what people are talking about it seems that women are beginning to participate in the political system more than they ever have is that true from where you are.

Well I think in the Congress there are 19 women in the house one of whom is the chair of a committee that's Leonor Sullivan of St. Louis who is the chairperson of Merchant Marines and Fisheries women in the Senate. But there are some good women running for the Senate this year Gloria Schaefer in Connecticut is one Patsy Mink is running. You may have a candidate here in New York absent for the Senate. But I think women always participated in in politics they always did all the grassroots precinct calling they always did all the stuff and the difference which which Susan demonstrates very clearly is that there is beginning to be much more now of an effort for them to rise up through party ranks and so we have Mary Louise Smith as the chairperson of the Republican Party. Now I wonder however whether or not there are rational women mayors and women county councils. It isn't going to take some time to percolate to the national level

not just because it takes time to move up in politics at all but because also these women are in their 40s and 50s which is the time that men are reaching the peak of their political power and their aspirations are often the County Council whereas in a more clear idea of life planning and politics I think and tend to take their steps a little bit earlier whereas we've been home watching children at that time of our lives. I think there are some major changes to a society in the culture that are causing these changes and in the political system the one of the major changes is the whole fight for each day and this has gotten women into the state legislatures where you're really seeing the increased participation we have 1000 women in Congress now we had nine thousand six hundred sixty two so we can't really see any great moves followed you know at every deal is it. You know what they are I really got women into the legislatures for years the party leaders have said you know don't run yet wait till you're really more prepared. You have to be a lawyer and I gave them all kinds of stories and women and women believe

them now they they got into the state legislatures and saw some of the cons of people that were representing them and they figured they could at least do as well if not much better so you really see on a local level I think you're seeing big jobs and also where we're also seeing a women are also saying public life as a as a realistic career choice. Particularly on local and state levels and there they are moving in and in large numbers on these levels and I think they don't have the kind of societal disapproval that they used to have in the past. When the last election the last national election there was actually a committee there was a woman running for Congress in the Midwest and her opponents started to committing mothers for the. I think it was cougar children. In other words showing that how could this woman possibly run for Congress and and leave her children back in the home district. And this she was royally defeated but I don't think that I think attitudes have changed so that this sort of thing

would not go unnoticed or would not would not be acceptable to that. I remember 64 on hold saying about her campaign in Texas that it really her candidacy was a joke. You know she really felt that people were treating it that way. Do you know the best quote like that is a quote that Mike Wallace made on CBS the night that Ella Grasso was elected and he said using women's lobbies voting chart and members of Congress that that Grasso and Hugh Carey had had gotten these ratings from us and that he was wondering what Alec Grasso really planned to do in terms of childcare and so on. However Ella Grasso has two children who are out of college. You carry on the other hand has 12 children the youngest of whom at that time was two years old. And Mike Wallace never mentioned the fact that that might in fact be Governor Perry who was in need of childcare assistance or governor Grasso it on her own when she got to Congress was approached by an old guy an older member of an older male member of Congress is that how can you do this how can you be a

congresswoman and have two small children and she said it's easy to have a uterus and a brain and they both work. Terrific. That's really a great story. What do you think do you think there was a single event 68 convention 72 convention that really started things rolling. Oh I think with the women's movement. Well I think there were three main factors that turned things around. Now you know you had a 19th century had the suffragette movement women got the vote and kind of sat back after that. But three things happened in the late 60s and early 70s that really changed things around. One was the what we know as the Women's Liberation Movement and the early consciousness raising I think we've grown from consciousness raising to political action. We are consciousness as a race now it's something what I think was a major factor I mentioned and we saw the second was the third I think was a 72 convention. When both political parties now for the first time in history women were represented as delegates they were no longer in the background doing all the

lip in the stick and they were actually representatives and this both the Democratic and the Republican parties increased their delegate. Women delegate strength from something like 17 percent in 68 to almost 40 percent which was the Democratic Party and the Republican Party they went from something like 13 percent to 33 percent women and the first time in in history women tasted power in large numbers. And what happened after this convention was that the women returned home and valid to run for office themselves they had they got a taste of power and they really weren't willing to go back to low level roles anymore and they many of the women who were. While almost radicalized if you want to use that word at those conventions when home to to really engage and full fledged and serious political activity from Washington in working with people who are already elected as a lobbyist I I see it in a slightly different way I think the real revolution occurred right after the Second World War when women went to

work. A majority of married women now work 75 percent of women over 35 work 60 percent of women between 18 and 20 to work. And we only drop off our participation in the workforce for a very short time the amount of time that women stay home with young children is consistently compressing It's now close to one year instead of the six years it was in 1960. So you have an enormous change in behavior. And then the women's movement comes along and it's just sort of an attitudinal follow up to that. We're going out changing people's minds when their behavior has already altered and we are in fact rather than being very radical or very cutting edge. We are in fact sort of a mop up operation that's quite tame and 10 years after the fact. And that operation then moves with the car into Capitol Hill and in 1970 we lost the in the Senate on an urban Amendment 36 to 33 by three votes. When we had 82 co-sponsors and I remember many of the women that were involved in when the

women's rights groups at that time saying well look this is the time that we have to re-elect an unelected people and really punish them for giving for not giving us our amendment when they said that they were co-sponsors and out of that grew the National Women's Political Caucus and out of that grew a lot of the delegate selection projects because it was clear that you also had to have the head of the party that either the president or the presidential candidate be responsive to those kinds of demands and that there were a lot of other demands like childcare which Nixon vetoed in 71 like minimum wage legislation for domestics because 98 percent of domestics are women and their average income was less than $2000 a year for a full 52 week year. It also had very broad support because women who work at home are very sensitive to what the overall worth of themselves is. If they can replace themselves by a domestic for less than $2000 they know they're doing more than $2000 worth of work. That created a broad base of support in which a smaller group of women who

tended to be both politically active to begin with and you could never forget that only about 1 percent of the American population at any time is ever politically active. But activists people tend to be active in many things and so if I'm in women's lobby I'm also in the caucus and I'm also in now and then I also will be active in my political party and that and it works in reverse. People who are active Democrats who saw that their reps were not being very responsive to their needs particularly on E.R. and said Well then I'm just I'm not going to have any truck with you buddy I'll find someone else. And although we're still at the stage where we look to the pipeline or the party to put that person in because they will have party support the most electable the women in South Carolina in Alabama in 74 did a project in which they elected about 20 percent of each of those legislators still couldn't get ratified because they picked the man who was next down on the party list and he would say 75 percent of his support to being in that party pipeline and only 25

percent of the women who had knocked off his opponent and that I think creates it another source in which you have this broad base of support in these this group of activists who already have their hands on a lot of knowledge of how the party works who then start pushing themselves up as candidates in a local and state level. What's happening is that women are suddenly realizing the relationship between their own commitment to the movement and the political system. You know they say and clout that women politicians are being very upfront about their allegiance to the women's movement that they're no longer ducking the feminist issue identification rather. Yes and I don't think for altogether Altshuler strick reasons I think fortunately the women's movement at least is creating the illusion of bringing support for issues. And it's no longer a vote losing effect or it's no longer a vote losing proposition 2 to be up front on women on

women's issues. Now not I think some of the more controversial women's issues even the women candidates will steer clear of. But certainly there's a wide range of issues on which women candidates can take a lead unfortunately they're regarded as women's issues they're really people issues but at this point in time it's the women who are taking the lead in these issues such as childcare childcare should not really be a male and female issue and where the planks at both party conventions in 72 to the so-called women's issues. What happened at the 72 convention at least I think the more visible convention with regard to women's issues with the Democratic convention and there was a the candidate George McGovern had promised women leaders that the party would have a reproductive freedom plank. And when they saw themselves losing the entire Catholic vote of the country I think they were a neg on that promise. They also renamed on a number of other promises which which entailed a certain commitment to women's rights a South Carolina

vote. Carol California. And. As a result women felt intensely betrayed at that convention another reason for going home and electing their own constituencies into into office. What what really happened was. Well they called it a communications breakdown but I think that as the they tasted power they they realized that they had the women all along the women would follow them. You know one of them one of the women we have quoted quoted in the book said that they thought George McGovern thought that the women's groups would follow him to hell and back. And we guard less of what what he did what he and his troops did at the convention. It didn't happen that way women felt intensely betrayed because they they pulled back their support on a lot of different women's issues thinking well you know you just wait. It's more important to get George McGovern elected president and to bring in all these other groups that might be offended by women's issues. But it really boomerang because the women's groups were so offended and felt so betrayed of the women women leaders and women's groups at the convention

that in an act in a final act of love. Betrayal nominated their own candidates as a vice president. What this did in effect was upset the timing of the convention so much that George McGovern's acceptance speech was given at something like three o'clock in the morning which was prime time TV only in Guam. And this was one of the reasons given for the turnaround in his his campaign efforts. I think now we did the Washington Institute did a survey of the current presidential candidates the ones with still in the race. And it's interesting that none of them maybe they feel themselves they feel scared by the McGovern experience you know promising more than they could actually deliver more than they felt they could deliver at that convention or they could deliver to women some of them not to hand it out even promising as much as they can realistically deliver. That's right there I think they're all even the more liberal of the candidates are skirting the issue.

The you know they all come out in support they've all supported the IRA. Except for George Wallace. And I think Reagan is you know is is is waffling that issue but he has finally come out I believe against the other candidates support but waffle on the abortion issue. Ford has. Come out more or less against the against abortion. The other candidates have jacks and answered our survey and has stressed his record on women's rights and not really promised very much for future future efforts except for what you know except for continuing the cons of efforts which he has started in the past. UDALL as well has come out and probably is probably the most liberal on women's issues but none of them it amazes me right now that none of the candidates have really tried to step out in front of the pack.

And I think this is one area that they could step out in front of and I would I don't mean to lose votes. It doesn't mean that they're not taking women seriously. I think that's part of it I don't think they're taking women as seriously even though another survey the Institute did showed that you know about 18 percent of the top positions in the campaigns were held by women. But there I don't think they're taking women seriously and probably women themselves the women's groups themselves are not making enough noise about withdrawing support or not making enough noise attacking them on certain issues and not doing that at this point. For whatever strategic reasons I'm not sure but I think they probably could exercise more of a strike force on some of the candidates at least to extract some sort of promise of future support. When one difficulty is that there are three kinds of women's issues. One is is odd women's issues that will never occur again like abortion in the way the other is that there are issues perceived as women's issues on which there's a general consensus that women have a special need like childcare or equal access to

credit. But the most important issues for the general electorate I'm convinced and the ones that candidates have addressed themselves to the most are the ones that aren't seen as women's issues but women are the poorest people in this country. Their poverty. Fifty six cents for every dollar men and women over 65 have an average income of two thousand one hundred nineteen dollars. Forty two percent of them have an income of one hundred twenty dollars a month so you have all of these poor people. Don't forget by the year 2000 20 percent of the entire U.S. population will be women over 65 and that in. Point of fact that group is one that we will all join as well and we're going to live much longer than minute every year every year more than women. So you have all of these people who are AFDC mothers and you have all of these economic issues joblessness hits women at a much higher rate than it does men women are. Much more likely to work seasonal and part time and part year work kinds of work that disappear when service oriented services disappear as inflation rises.

And women tend to be in service oriented industries so that all of the economic issues and this is particularly true of people like Jackson say or Udall who have been on Capitol Hill are also places where they address themselves to women's issues and women have held them to that I think a little bit more on both abortion and you have nominal compliance nominal compliance with the Supreme Court decision with some caviar and some nominal compliance with the idea of it although it's important to note that Jackson gives his support on E.R. ain't the only thing he does unequivocally and didn't vote for it in 72. He wasn't there didn't. And when I talked to him and to his staff about it they went back in microfilm records and discovered he had voted for it and 52 when of course it didn't pass. Do you think there's going to be some effort by the conservatives of both parties to remove the plug from the platform and to. Try to submerge the abortion issue I think submerging the abortion issue I think

the right thing will be just slightly fringe don't you think that you would have to get some overwhelming majority for regen and do something like that to even to attack that because Mary Louise Smith really built her reputation in Iowa on on what she and Roxanne Conlin who was the Democratic secretary of state. I'm sorry attorney general did to get that ratified. I I think the abortion issue is another one. Good point for all candidates to notice is that in a recent Catholic survey less than 12 percent it's really eleven point nine percent of Catholics who are practicing Catholics who attend church regularly said that they would make that an issue in voting for a candidate. And the woman who is running as a pro-abortion cabinet is getting 1 to 4 percent of the vote for person in this church which is like a 70 percent Catholic electorate. What would you say that women are generally not well informed under enough. And I think absolutely I mean I really feel that I'm not as well as I would like to

be and I think probably most women are but what can you do about all the problem you don't have access to the information that you to have. There seems to be no place where the information is coming. And women's news unfortunately is still on the women's pages of newspapers for the most part and I think that's probably one of the problems I think you have to inform men as well as women on women's issues and although women are going to be that determined minority is going to push the issue over I think that there is no reason to doubt it man in decision making power of decision making with that positions that can that have to be as well as we've got but it's far better to address yourself to really informing women in particular about economic issues because women make up to 60 percent of the primary voters and they make up a majority of the voters in every election they make up the majority of the population and they tend to be active in the party in much greater numbers than in so that you really have a pyramid that just house of men is frosting on the top. It is a question of realizing what's been done to you to throw them

off and in realizing how broad is the base of support. For the kind of reforms that we're really talking about. Very simple things you know child care simply a matter of paying federal tax money to replace women who have already voted with their feet to go out and work and live in the Congress because they're all men find it very hard to put up money to do something women have been doing for free. Simple issue to most women. What if you had to list the issues that women should look for things they should look for in the party platforms. What would you list Social Security reform tax reform the kinds of problems that that that women on welfare had because women on welfare women left Bunnymen to take care of children. And we're. Going to take care of children and we're telling them that that's exactly what we think they're worth is that. Average two hundred sixteen dollars a month. And then I'd really talk about the problems of the Humphrey-Hawkins bill and how we're going to employ women and employ them a living wage like $5 an hour not like $2 an

hour and employ them to go ahead and do jobs that that they're either doing like service oriented jobs but a living wage or jobs that they could easily do by bulldozer operator and crane operator the kinds of things that we haven't done that are the way to either drop out of high school or get out of high school and earn a very very good very decent steady living. So who are some of the women to watch in the conventions and both parties. Is there anyone in particular who will be close to the center of action and who will be helping decide some of these things. Well I think before I just want to mention something that pertains to what you were saying I think women have to be reconditioned on issues. In other words they have too many women too and often politics feel that politics is immoral. Politics is like you know money it's like money they really don't have any they don't really want to have any part of it. They don't want to run for office they can't take

the ego knocks that you have to take in getting up in front of a group and speaking your mind and getting attacked in the newspaper or getting attacked on television. They have to be reconditioned that if they don't that politics is really means their we'll being. Unfortunately there are other women's groups that have organize very effectively against women's issues. Headed by women. Especially we see this especially visibly and you are a. And this is really what has caused the defeats of the Stadio re amendments in New York and New Jersey women's groups basically that have organized and thrown base throw scare tactics into women and male voters and this is going to be very similar I don't know how we're going to accomplish that. I don't know I think that we have to. I think it's something that women leaders have been they have been grappling with it it is a massive kind of voter education program that that many groups have already begun to do and have done very effectively but it's a it's also why women are not been identified with Watergate. They may at this point in

time they make wonderful candidates because they haven't been identified with the practices of the past women politicians who come to office usually have to scrape together own campaigns and run. Now I somehow get to get elected to office they say women nominations so they re-enter the party in a sense but they come to office on obligated or at least less obligated than male politicians. So I think that this is a problem that we have to deal with. Your question Welcome back to all that hard because I control the party apparatus. The problem is worth it. You first of all have to vote against women because women were the majority. Less than a third of the population dispense with him because he's not so are you saying women really have a certain amount of power and they just have to take it.

We're out of time. Thank you both. Thank you for watching and good night. And was founded by public television and the Public Broadcasting.