Woman; Women in Transition: Separation and Divorce

In changing. Good evening and welcome to woman Our topic tonight is separation and divorce. My guests Jennifer Fleming and Carolyn caught Carolyn and Jennifer are both founding members of women in transition women in transition is a Philadelphia program that provides survival skills and emotional support to separating

divorcing and single parent women. Ms Fleming and Miss Washburn are among the authors of women in transition a handbook on separation and divorce. Welcome to both of you. Can you tell me a little bit about women in transition and how it got started. We started in 1971 when a group of us were working at the women's liberation Center in Philadelphia. We were getting a lot of calls from women who were thinking about separating or divorcing women who were already in the midst of that process or who were being beaten by their husbands and wanted to know what to do about that. Many of us had been through separation and divorce ourselves and could be sympathetic on the phone but we decided we wanted to provide a more concrete service so we got together started planning. We're able to get some foundation funding and have been going ever since. Right now we have two primary services one emotional support which takes the form of small groups where women get together and talk about what they're going through. And we also provide paralegal counseling exactly how many in that group. Women in the group are divorced.

Well within the group that organized the program I think there was a women and I think about six five or six were separating or divorcing or had already gone through it and a couple were single. So almost all of you brought personal experience then and that was what basically got the program going. The calls coming in from women and the fact that we were going through it ourselves and you both have been divorced. Obvious separate encounters divorce do I talk with that a little bit. OK I was married at the age of 18 and I had several reasons I think for getting married. One was that I came from a very impoverished background and I think that I partially saw my marriage as an escape from that. And secondly I was in love. I think what I was really in love with was an image an image created by the women's magazines and the whole glorification I think of marriage that goes on in our society. And I want to fulfill society's expectations of me as a woman. So I went ahead and did it and I expected to be carried over the threshold and live happily ever after. Unfortunately I didn't live happily ever after and I don't think I was really prepared

for the end of my marriage. And one of the things that we try and do it women in transition is to demystify marriage a little bit inform women as to what they're really getting into when they get married what marriage really means legally and what their rights are or lack of them so to speak. You know my background is very different than Jennifer as I think I had a lot of the same expectations that you did about marriage. I got married in 1965 and I didn't know anybody who didn't think that she would be married at some point or other in her life and I expected that's what I would do and in fact I did it. I was graduating from college at that time and I really didn't know what else to do with myself. And I think that I was very different than many of the women who come to women in transition in that I did have a college degree and I always worked during my marriage so that I had my own money. And when I saw that the relationship was ending I had the mobility to leave many women are not and are not that fortunate. Who are the women who come I mean do you get all kinds of women or do you get primarily white middle class women. Well we get all kinds of women and the majority of the women

who come through our program are not that ministers say that they're not feminists are not interested in women's liberation or anything to do with the movement there are women who need help and they have been unable to get it anywhere else and have finally realized that perhaps women will help them and give them the support that they need. Although many of the women by the time they leave the program still would not call themselves feminists in a sense obvious call them feminist because they're much stronger they're much more independent both emotionally and economically and they no longer want to take a back seat. Terms of realizing themselves as people. I think it's not coincidental that we have all kinds of women in our program. Older women younger women middle income low income black and white. We've made an aggressive effort to reach out to nonwhite middle class women and it's worked. And we also have women on our staff from varied backgrounds and they've had a big role in shaping the services that go to low income and minority women. Let's talk about some of the differences the class differences the age differences and so on that you find. OK I'll start.

OK. I think that the main difference we found between middle income women and low income women has to do with resources. The middle income woman has more resources to fall back on generally speaking she might be able to resort to private Pista private attorneys. The low income woman however has to depend on institutions. And unfortunately the institutions that are primary in her life such as the Welfare Board of family court are only going to reinforce whatever negative feelings she has a better self. As far as survival is concerned a low income woman I think has really been provided with more of a sense of independence and self-sufficiency that she's been forced to be strong in order to survive and so she has more survival skills when it comes to dealing with the outside world and often times her feelings have to be sort of put on a back burner until she can deal with meeting her survival needs and the needs of her children in the middle income women however might feel more frightened about facing the world particularly if she's an

older woman or woman who has had no job experience outside the home whose major energy is going into the marriage and she just becomes more overwhelmed emotionally about facing life alone. I don't think we're saying that it's easier or difficult more difficult depending on what your class or race background is we're saying it's hard for everybody but the problems are different. You know women in transition is really outside of the social service system isn't it. Yes it is. I'd like to know why was it necessary for you to do that. Well yes I guess I should say that in 1971 there was no mental health center or social service agency or family service agency that was meeting the needs of separating and divorcing women. And one of the things that's happened over the last four years due to the fact that we have done a lot of educating in the professional community is that there's becoming an awareness in Philadelphia and I think in other cities also of the need for specialized programs for women. But I think that there was no recognition at that time that women do have separate problems I think women's issues were seen within the scope of the general mental health service delivery system.

I think there also was a real lack of and and still is to a large extent a lack of an understanding of marriage as a political institution. And by that I mean marriage is an institution that has starkly and to some extent today has limited women the potential of women has confined to the home etc. so the match kept the marriage counseling programs that that are available in the marriage counseling agencies that do exist tend to focus more on a sort of. Individual problem what's wrong is what's wrong with you and why can't we work that out. Whereas our program is designed to make women feel that they are not failures because marriages fail. That in fact many are artificial and unrealistic roll expectations have been placed upon them that in fact marriage is an institution which in many cases almost produces failure in the people who enter into it and that they need not feel guilty. When an institution breaks down that has not necessarily been designed to protect them and benefit them as we are all taught from from day

one. And I think that it's really important for women to see that although they have been made to feel that marriage is sort of the Beyond end of their existence that we're put on earth to do is to be wives and mothers to be good wise mothers to serve men and when we're not quite successful at that. The blame is not so much on their shoulders as as it is on the society around them. We're often asked Aren't you contributing to the break up of families and our answer to that is no. First of all there are a number of women who come through a program who decide to stay in their marriages but they have a much better idea of what they want from them and are not content to be second to second class citizens within the marriage. Also I have a feeling that that the problems exist if the women's movement didn't exist somebody would have to create it that the rest was there the unhappiness the dissatisfaction. And what women's groups such as ours are doing is providing an avenue and resources and options for the women who are frustrated we're not creating the interest it's already there. Now you've both seen and talked to lots and lots of women who are either separating or about to become divorced. Do you have any answers I mean are there patterns other things that you see.

Well you know we could talk a little bit about where a woman turns because I think the first place a woman often turns to a lawyer. And I think it's really important for women to have a good idea of what the law says Jennifer I think what I meant was maybe you know reasons for break ups maybe you see patterns of behavior that kind of thing. Yeah. Well OK I think that. I think that marriage has required for too long that women that men sort of fulfillment cells of the husband sort of fulfills them himself at the expense of the wife and that I think marriage has been an unequal relationship. I don't think that women have found it fulfilling at all think that marriage has really provided a a basis for women to become in control of their lives and I think that many times women do all the sacrificing and all the giving. Many times women have to act as buffers between husband and children there are all kinds of roles in marriage that women are put into that I think are unfulfilling and in fact stifling you know in that when a woman realizes that she's not going to

have an orgasm when she removes the ring around the collar for example she has to think well maybe there's something wrong with her. And oftentimes it doesn't occur to her to think well maybe there's something wrong with this institution to begin with. So so my feeling personally is that. That for women especially the marriage the whole marriage setup begins to break down when she realizes that. That this is it. You know that she's going to make beds and take care of children and that and that's what the institution is really all about and it's not necessarily the bed of roses that she's been taught to believe so that's a pattern that I see is that many women are realizing that marriage isn't for them or that particular marriage isn't for them. And then for the first time in history finding that she doesn't have to stick it out that there are in fact resources for such as women when in transition or other women's programs that will help her get out of that box that she's found herself in. Is that what women articulate though when they first come to you or the first talk to you. I don't think so. I think that that's something that develops in the process of the small group

meetings I think women come with several different feelings. Also depending on who left and who did the leaving who was left and who did the leaving. I think that women who are left in addition to feeling scared and lonely also feel very drained and as if their failures they were able to hold on to the man they were you know the burden of keeping a marriage together so often on women shoulders and I think those women who who are left feel as if it's their fault and if they're as if they're real failures and women who do they're leaving. And I think I also feel guilty underneath but have a kind of overlay of anger and that's that anger that gives them the strength to move on out. So these are some of the initial feelings that women come with to our groups I think over a period of time and some of our groups have met as long as two years a kind of healing process takes place I think that and sharing with each other and learning to trust other women to not be hostile and competitive but to really open up and share with other women. The women in our program find for example talking to

somebody who was say a little farther along down the road someone who's been separated longer that the pain goes away. That that being able to cope with small tasks such as changing a light while attaining a light bulb is fairly simple but but changing some wiring or whatever you know the more things a woman can do of that nature the more strength that she gathers for herself and and that this these things happen one day at a time and very slowly but that over time women feel a strength and independence and ability to carry on their own. Now one of the things that we talk about a lot in the groups is the tendency for many women to think if they can just find another man everything will be fine. And we talk about that if you can't get in touch with who you are what you want and learn to know yourself as an independent resourceful person you're going to make the same mistakes all over again that the majority of women who feel that way that they want another man. You know I would say maybe 50 50. Yeah. I think it's really important for women to understand that they can become emotionally independent and that that's when the things we try and do in the group is

promote that emotional independence so that whatever decision a woman makes later on whether to remarry to stay sane or whatever is made from a position of strength not a position of desperation and weakness. Do most women you think need some kind of counseling. Absolutely I think that it's I mean did you have counseling. We had a women's group. I had I had a women's group too and I think also the whole process of organizing women in transition was very therapeutic for me because it helped me to realize that I wasn't alone I wasn't I said I wasn't the only one going through that. So I think that it's important for him to get counseling but I think it's the kind of counseling is just as important. Because if she if she gets into a traditional marriage counseling set up where the the whole emphasis and focus is on saving the marriage no matter how the people may really be feeling towards each other or how much their marriage is really over. I think that can be really counterproductive. So I think that it's important that there be just as much divorce castling in this country as there is marriage counseling that there need to be all kinds of supports for women and men for that matter to realize that they can

end a marriage without being totally drained and debilitated and that in fact it can become a creative experience. One of the things that you do that I thought was very interesting because it had never occurred to me that a woman would need this kind of preparation is that you say that you need to prepare for the divorce for the separation I mean the things you need to do before you even get to that point. I mean one of the things that happens is it's obviously a very emotional time and many women especially if they're angry or hurt rush into making decisions that will affect the rest of their lives and don't do it carefully. One of the things we do in the women in transition book and in our program is try to make women better consumers of all kinds of services whether it's legal services or therapy services or whatever and try to help women separate where they can get their emotional needs met such as through their friends through a women's group and where they can get their kind of technical needs met through a lawyer or you know a financial counselor or whatever. They often women go to the same place for both don't they certainly women go to their

lawyers and that's it's very expensive. For one thing and it can be very destructive emotionally. I think it's really important for women to realize that their rulers are not gods and they mustn't make a sort of surrogate male priority for years out of their lawyers and many women think they return to the lawyer and he's going to be like dad and he's going to mop everything up and make it all right. And not only is the lawyer incapable of doing that no matter how good a lawyer he or she is. We've also found some really in that representation as far as domestic relations are concerned I think for many lawyers domestic relations is sort of the bottom of the legal battle. And that women are seen as very hysterical and erratic and been unable to comprehend this great mistake of the law. So we really encourage women to find out what their rights are what they are entitled to to know the divorce process in their state so that they can make sure that there are lawyers working for them. Let's talk specifically OK now maybe just before you're going into a separation or divorce and and talk about some of the legal things that people need to know and

give as much practical advice as you can. OK if I can say a few things about the history of the last tiny bit I think it's important for people to get a perspective on marriage as a legal institution. When I when we were writing the legal section none of us were lawyers or law students and so we spent a long time in the library researching things and were really amazed at what we came up with about marriage because. Apparently it it turns out that if you look at a marriage contract today you'll see that husbands have the same responsibilities to their wives that slave owners are their slaves under slavery. They had to provide food clothing shelter and medical care and in return they got free labor. The husband has the same responsibilities to a wife and in return he gets free labor and social services. Now people have tried to write alternative contracts contracts that can create something like an equal state within marriage and those contracts have been struck down by the courts because they are contrary to the Whole grain of marriage to the whole purpose of marriage. So we realize that. Well we said wait a minute you know women are the ones who are supposed to vary from marriage

rise turning out like this. We realize that there's no such thing under the law as rape within marriage although hundreds of women have callers who have been brutally and repeatedly raped year in and year out there is nothing under the law that they can do about it. If a man gets a job and a woman doesn't follow then she's guilty of desertion. But if she gets a job and moves and he doesn't file she still gets desertion. So we found all these inequalities and all this discrimination under the law which led us to the next question which is well how is the law protecting us now if this is what the law is based on. Are we getting any real protection from the law now. Maybe you want to say a few words about things like support and whether women can I correct and I have read it and then eventually will get to your question about it. I'm not going anywhere. Yes Jennifer was saying there's a lot of mythology that exists around marriage and there are a lot of jokes about after a divorce a man is eating hot dogs and a woman is wearing a mink coat and eating steak so our experience is that that happens only in a small percentage of cases that that's really not true in the majority

of cases that although courts may set awards at a fairly decent level for women who are still married to their husbands or for dependent children enforcement is a big problem in this country and that advice to a woman if she can't expect voluntarily to get regular payments from her husband or ex-husband is that she go on welfare because at least those checks will be regular. Well as far as practical suggestions we have a section in the book called what to look for in a lawyer and basically it deals with first of all selection. Talk to your friends call if there's a women's center in your area call it up find out if they have a referral list of sympathetic lawyers. Talk about fees. Any lawyer who is reluctant to talk about fees to you is someone to be mistrusted. Well I think the third thing is to get a book like ours or talk to law students or legal legal secretaries in the lot and get a general idea of what your rights are obviously this is going to be a substitute for legal counsel but you have to know what questions to ask in order to get good representation.

Can you add anything to the name some questions to ask. Why do women have problems with communication with their attorneys for example. Why do they differ. Because lawyers don't respond to their cause and their cause and I'll call an incautious I just called my lawyer six times in the last week and he won't call me back. So then we might advise a woman in that situation to send a registered letter to her attorney and say I want to know exactly what process what stage of the process the divorces and if it happens to be there and divorce. I want to know exactly how much money I owe you now. I want to know how much I'm going to tell you when it's over. I get this question settled nine times out of 10 hour I'll respond to a registered letter when he won't respond to a phone call. These are the kinds of procedures that women need to know works. Most women are intimidated by their lawyers and won't push them in. Our whole approach to dealing with lawyers is that you are hiring this person this person is working for you. And that's what he said to try and relate to the whole situation is I hear us talking I feel sometimes that we aren't saying Do this do that. You can do it you can do it with

without acknowledging the fact that that is asking a lot of a woman at a difficult time and that we don't want to be simplistic or glib about it that there's obviously many things going on in the life of a separated or divorced woman and but on the other hand thousands of women have done it we know because we've worked with them and that kind of strength comes to the surface in many women who thought they could never do it. So picture we have like a checklist for separation and divorce checklist. You know you know what. It is divided into chapters and the chapters are emotional support children legal problems counseling find don't just you know list them out here like you know saying something right but what I'm saying is that there are many many areas that a woman has to take into account when she separates or divorces and again depending on what kind of resources she can bring to the situation. It's going to vary whether I mean if she has her money thing under control but it's her emotions that are the problem that she should think about being in a women's group getting individual therapy something like that. I think the key is we can't really go into all precautions a woman should take the kids don't

do anything to you know what you're doing. For example don't decide that you're going to leave and leave the children behind and get them later when you set yourself up because then you're actually technically guilty of desertion things like that. You need to to know what the law says you've got to educate yourself before you move. That's the case because many women make irreparable mistakes. Many women are sought have signed agreements that they've they've totally sold themselves down the river and they come to us after it's all over and say Can you help me and very very often we can't it's too late. So you got to be careful. Which brings up the biggest checklist of wrongs which is before you get married. Think about it before you separated divorce and before you're even close to that point. You know what you're doing Jennifer involved in writing another book on marriage which is a direct result of our experiences in this program because our feeling is that if many more women knew what marriage was it is an institution. I think most would probably still interest into it which is fine. That's their choice. But do it in a much more rational and careful way such as not losing your credit identity. Many women would choose to keep their maiden names if they had a choice about that now.

Avoiding the economic dependency that's one of the big big problems that we see in separation divorce. Is it true that more women are not having custody of their children by choice. Well. I think that there might be a greater incidence of it I don't know I do know that some women come to women in transition and feel that the children would be better off if they spend most of their time with the father. We try to avoid the whole term custody because it implies property and children of course are property. So we try to provide a supportive climate for a woman who makes a decision like that. So I don't think there are many supports in the society around her. We try to help her deal with her guilt which of course she has if she decides that the father should have primary responsibility. We also try to help women deal with the hall where what we call the glorification of the absent parent syndrome and that is when mommy is home all week and doing the drudgery and disciplining the kids and I am having to go through the day to day routine of raising the kids and daddy comes around the weekend and

maybe has more money and he takes them places and in effect he can become a Santa Claus. And many women feel very controlled by that situation and we try to help women feel that they should trust themselves and have confidence in their ability to parent and that eventually the children will see both parents as they really are and that daddy won't always be looking good in Mommy always looking bad. In the practical tips division I think we should also say that many women when there is a custody battle go to court and think that they're going to win because they're good mothers and they love their children. And our experience is that this is not true that often if the father is able to hire a lawyer a good expensive lawyer will or can provide better for the children economically or can use the woman's reputation against her if she has has a boyfriend say. And by the way this is really used against husbands in custody cases that she's going to lose and if a woman has a custody battle on her hands we advise her to get good representation immediately. What about the feeling of Division I see you for the practical tips division. You

talk about the emotional stages that women go through. I mean how do you convince a woman that she can trust herself to herself. Well I think one of things we try to do in a small group is first of all promote an understanding of marriage and we talk about marriage and while we all get married and where we thought it was going to be and then we focus more on needs and goals and we think we do some exercises in our groups that encourage women to do things like goal setting because for many women it's the first time in their lives that they've actually had a chance to say themselves well what do I want who am I as a person and so I think the K is support from other women and I don't think that necessarily has to be in a structured women's group setting. I think that women are feeling very isolated and lonely and have been taught to see other women as competition or very surprised and happy and feel very encouraged when they realize that other women can give them the support that they need to get through this experience.

So we really recommend that women search out other women in similar situations and share their experiences and begin to build a community of support for themselves and each other. One of the things we always used to read in articles in the in the 50s and 60s about divorced women was the tremendous guilt that they felt. Is this still as much of a problem do you think unfortunately it is. I'm beginning to I'm beginning to decide the guilt is something that is with women. I mean most of us are trying to learn to get rid of that but it's something that's been so ingrained in us it's almost impossible to get rid of it. I was talking before about the women who do the leaving or the women who are left those categories of women feel guilty. Women who have their children feel guilty because they're not able to do enough they can't provide enough as one pair of the women who don't have their children feel guilty because they're not with their children it's it's a very unproductive emotion. I don't have any answers are wrong as long as I think a lot of women feel guilt about the lack of a male image in the home. And. I think that the thinking behind that assumes that women are incapable of demonstrating certain qualities to their

children that you have to have a man in the House to demonstrate things like strength and aggressiveness and assertiveness and athletic ability. And I think that women are capable of demonstrating those qualities and once again a woman should trust herself and that she single parenting is a positive experience and that you don't necessarily have to have a man in the house just to have a man in the House does not necessarily make a quality difference in the kind of raising that goes on as far as the children are concerned. Are you hopeful or pessimistic were telling. I hope for you to rile me that we've seen women make it. We know that thousands more can do the same. Thank you both for killing Jennifer. Thank you for watching and good night. Content and was founded by a

parishioner.