Woman; Lois Gould on Women Writers

Eat eat eat eat woman by women. Good evening and welcome to woman my guest this evening is one of my favorite novelists. She is Lois Gould Lois is a journalist as well as a novelist. She's the author of such good friends necessary objects. Final analysis and X a fabulous child's story. Her new novel a sea change published recently has caused considerable controversy. Lois Welcome to you. I'm going to read a little bit from a review. Of a sea change and it's Doris chrome book and it's the Chicago Tribune book world. I will understand it perfectly when other readers say they just like to see change intensely.

I will be sympathetic to whispers in Christ suggesting confusion dismay perhaps even lack of understanding. But to all the inevitable naysayers of delicate sensibilities I wish to say at once. I think Lois school's new novel is startling original beautifully written. That's a terrific review. I liked it. Why wasn't that in the New York Times. I wish I knew it had if it had been I think it would have signalled to a great many people things that. That I thought were important about the book. Doris crumb back. I noticed reacted too and even though her reactions were highly personal and she said elsewhere in that review she had some questions. She had some confusions. She had some interpretations that she was longing to. Get corroboration for. Her review was enormously warming to the heart because she read carefully and she read well and she read the way one wishes to be read which is

with thought and with and with respect and and it was quite beautiful too to be responded to the way one wished. What do you think. You know the book has become very controversial. What do you think is hard about the book for people to accept. I know there are several things several things I think and the use of the fantasy or the. The. Space in which the writer the reader has to decide for herself or for himself what is real and what is not real and what is really happening and what is not really happening and is this reality or am I in some other world. That kind of space is something that readers are not accustomed to very much now. They read quickly they read in attentively and they expect to have it all very simple and on one level. And this book asks for them to pay attention which is hard enough in this world.

There are also a number of elements in the book besides the Sadducee such as violence and. The. Erotic aspects not only of the violence or of the implied violence but of. Different combinations of people. And the ambiguities of relationships and the changing of relationships is. Very changeable as you were reading it and that means the ground under the reader is shifting and sliding. And that's an uncomfortable place to be in when you want to curl up with something that is called a good read or a page turner. You don't want to have to say hey where am I. Because you lose your moorings and you lose sexual moorings and you lose reality moorings and all of that is discomfiting and there are many many changes. It is a very erotic book and I'm interested in why in books by women certain kinds of A-Rod a system is

acceptable. And other kinds are not. I don't know why that is either except that I think we are in a time of violent change about radical principles and erratic patterns and some eroticism in books by women is reassuring to people who would like it. To be familiar terrain and to to be able to hitch their their sexual wagons to and say aha I've been here before and this is where I like to be. And if you are saying no it isn't that way. It is some other way and either I do not like what it is that you always thought I liked or I question that and I am trying this and this is different and it is very interesting to me and you are not with me at this moment. All of that is scary scary to men and scary to many women who either are finding the erotic elements in their lives for the first time and exploring them or don't want to find them or have a feeling that something terrible awaits them if they do find it. And. All of these. Raisings of

questions that people are uncomfortable about raising. Make one very skittish. What about Jesse Waterman who is the main character in the novel. What about her relationship with the other woman is this something that you think people are finding on acceptable to an extreme point. I don't know about that I think there has been a tradition of acceptance of some. Woman to woman erotic connections in books and in films certainly. Which have been considered not particularly seriously threatening because men who see pornographic movies as a hobby have always liked a little woman woman interaction and never seemed particularly upsetting or serious. It is only upsetting or serious if the men never comes in at the end of the scene and takes over or asserts the need of the woman to be ultimately satisfied by the men. And the point at

which homosexuality becomes truly threatening or frightening is when. The male observer. Really feels he has been. Eliminated from the scene or in some way rejected. I don't know that there is any implicit political position in. In any way. Female homosexuality but it's never really been studied it's never really been taken seriously most of the studies that have ever taken place on homosexuality have concentrated on men and not on women because any form of women's sexuality has been second class not particularly knowledged certainly assumed to be controllable by whatever establishment rules dictate should be done with women's sexuality which is to use it and prescribe what is acceptable and what is not. I think one of the things that we the mistakes we make about writers when we

read novels is that we assume that everything is a statement and that you believe everything that you describe and you approve of it. Is this true. I think it does happen sadly more often than it should because the writer has been invested particularly at this time when we are as I said a little confused and a little off balance. The writer has been looked upon as a visionary as a spokes person for. Whatever is happening or should happen. And the tendency to read very literally what the novelist says what the fiction writer says as either gospel truth or political. Ideology is very hurtful to the imagination. The writer is writing. An imaginative work and then to either have. Her own. Politics question or the politics of her heroine which is fairly frequent. Question attacked or. Discussed as the basis for

your criticism. Seems very relevant you say. But this is what I invented or this is what I dreamed and this is where my imagination took me and why are you holding me responsible for my heroine's attraction to the men in her life or the woman in her life or the child in her life. This is a person that I have created and it isn't me and it isn't what I think you should do. It's fiction. But the acceptance of fiction is. Very difficult to retain in a world that is rooted in. Tell me true tell me what you are really like. I wish to read about you in People magazine and I don't want to know where your mind takes you because I need a formula for me for now. And I think that's hard I think the place of fiction is hard. To cling to. In a time of crisis. Are you making any predictions with that book. I don't know I think I may be making.

Interpretive statements about. Present and near future rather than a long term prediction for how things must be or where it where people must go and how they must relate to each other. The beginning of the book of course is a reference to. A Fish Called the grass. And its peculiar mode of life which involves. The assumption to Malin those. Of the dominant female of the harem upon the death of the male. And its a very brief reference but of course it is the basis for the whole allegory. And of course that is. The present way the rest lives and. The rest has no choice any more than people have. In. Its sexuality or its assumption of sexual behaviors of different kinds at different stages in its life. So the allegory if it is an allegory. Step previous to that is that in so far as it is an allegory. Stems from a present reality rather than. Any kind of formula

one. Political. Prognostication or certainly. Medical prescription for Will Will we must be or how we will be from here on. I don't know. But do you see it as you and I really do. I think I want to yes or no. You see I don't know. I mean what if pinned down. I would give you a very positive by I don't know. All right I'll let you off the hook for the moment. What do you think women want from women novelists. Because I think they do want some answers. Answers. Women novelists have become a fairly. Articulate. And. Kind of. Unified seeming group of spokes persons for the moment they are obviously thoughtful and reflective. They do look at themselves and look at the world around them. And. They write about it and they

write about it in emotionally gripping ways those of them who who are widely read and assume to be eloquent or or. In some way capturing the voice or the mood or the emotional question of many women. So in so far as they are speaking to many women they become transformed into speaking to many women and those women who are moved by their work look to them and say Tell me do you mean that I should be thus and so are doing that because you are the US and so that's good. Or. Where exactly do you stand in relation to the people in your book. Are you for them are you against them do you love them or hate them. And what is your responsibility toward me now that you have grabbed my attention. And the difficulty is. That as a novelist one continues to cling to the idea that one is simply talking. About one's private visions. And if they

touch people that is all one is asked. One is not asked to be a rocketed to some pope an. Untold speak and tell me. How I must act at this at this moment. And because of what you know you are. A guru. Or. A wise one than an elder. Well it's really kind of what's happened I mean there's a group of. Women Writers Erica Jong Joan Didion and the list is long and your and yourself included of course and you're all thought of that as the current gurus. It's a heavy burden because that was not what we were about. And it's unfortunate that there is no other group in politics. There is no other group in sociology. There is no other group. You know education who seem a strong or who seem as if. There's a bill. I think that's what it is visibility. Many women have

access to the thinking of the novelists not so many women have access to the thinking of educators or political scientists especially women in these fields who are addressing themselves to the questions of being a woman and the future of being a woman. And the novelist. Is by default cast in that spot though she may claim as I do that was not. That was not why I came. That was not. Why I chose to do this I chose to do it out of my own inner needs and I never said I could speak for you. Or for. Any other group. I'm torn. You know I'm torn between understanding exactly what you're saying and believe the other. I am wanting you to accept the role of the other. You know for people who really need that because as you said there's nowhere else to go. Like terrifying responsibility and most of us I mean very introspective people. Would pull back from that in some kind of horror and

say. I am not qualified. I do not know about you. I only know about me. And your response would be yes but you speak to me and your people are me. And therefore I know that you know me and how can you say this is not your responsibility you must accept it. It's very hard. What is your responsibility. I think my responsibility is no different from yours which is to say what I feel in as honest a way as I can and to project it in my own medium in my own language so that it is understandable to you and if you learn from that or if others learn from that and can accept things in themselves and recognize things in themselves from my work I have done. My job and I think to point to certain truths and say Here it is. I name it. That's I go along with that OT stand. Thank you once again all for. This one thing that really bothers me and I and I know I'm not the only person

that's bothered by this but every Sunday I pick up the New York Times book section and I don't see books by women being reviewed very frequently at all. In fact most of the time the reviews are totally about men. And the books that they have written. And when I do say I review about a book that a woman has written it chances are it's by another woman. And the review is devastating. And what is going on I can't believe that this is all chance or circumstance or whatever it really is I think upsetting and a plot. It looks like to me. I don't know if it's a plot I think it's an inevitable period during which the work by women that is challenging is extremely hard to assimilate by. People men and some women who are not accustomed to having that ground shifting under them

don't know how to assess it other than by pulling away from it or saying either. It doesn't really touch what I believe to be the roots of literature or the roots of culture in our time. I know what those rules are and I have lived by them forever and this is some interloper or a group of interlopers to whom I do not have to listen. At this moment it is unsettling. Therefore I will either ignore it or I will say it is not relevant to the mainstream of literature. Which I have related to all my life. So you will find a sort of conservative core reviewers who assess women's books in a context. Which was never designed to include them because they are saying things that. That those people do not wish to hear or do not wish to understand. And the impulse to pull back and not to listen is very strong. I think it's going to take time before you build up a receptivity

to serious women critics before you build up. The possibility of accepting them in the fraternity. Male critics and into the fraternity of publishers they have advanced women have advanced in publishing tremendously in the last few years and they're nowhere in the critical for eternity and that's an astonishing difference. And I think it's important because the reception of the books by critics is quite different from the reception of the books by women readers who are obviously a huge block. Right exactly are you going to be publishing them if they weren't making money right. That's right. But money is not the name of the game in the hardcover publishing men's fraternity have this this image of the great literary judge like an admin Wilson sitting in his book lined study puffing contemplatively on his pipe and saying this is

good this is bad this show live that shall die. And that is what is being clung to as an image of judgment of excellence. So. That which does not conform to the rules laid down 30 years ago 40 years ago 60 years ago as great not great acceptable not acceptable has no place except very marginally so they will permit a womans book to be published which reaches a wide audience of women. But they can still protect themselves I think against the possibility of challenge to the principles by saying well it's a special thing and it belongs here and we will look at it at a distance at a safe distance with a safe pole of whatever length. That's exactly the impression one gets from looking at the makeup of the times books.

But I think it will change because I think reading habits change judgments change populations of readers change. Women critics do emerge. There are some wonderful ones Starscream back. I may be terribly partial to Doris Brownback at the moment but she is a fine critic and she's an acknowledged fine critic even by her male peers and associates. But there are. Many other younger women critics who are coming along publishing in. Some places not necessarily constantly in the New York Times but other places and they are thoughtful reflective. Wise. And. But in the mean time percent before all of these things are righted that we consider as wrongs at the moment. The fact that there are no women critics and that you know the way women are treated by publishers. In the meantime we have to survive. They're not treated badly by publishers publishers stand to gain from publishing them and so they do. Well.

I you know I don't get into a big discussion at that at this point of how they're treated by publishers but I do know some women who've been treated very badly by publishers think that's probably true advantage of. And there are some women writing fiction that publishers will not touch because they are so challenging and innovative and strange. And there is no way to relate to them and then people will look at a book that. Is about something that is totally foreign. Right and will say I can't publish that. Right. But in the meantime there are several you know some of the names that we mentioned including yourself you have to survive. How do you do that. I guess by writing as well as one can and. Ultimately binding up one's wounds and. Paying attention to one's craft and saying over and over. I am published I am writing I am able to make my way as a writer and this is something that might not have happened. Whatever number of years ago. And if I have this much the perspective begins to take over and you say.

I am here and I must do what I do. And if there is reaction against it that is further proof that what I am doing is worth doing and certainly worth doing. Well. If at all. So you do that. OK. You try it try it on one of the things that I've really been anxious to talk to you about. Is male female relationships. And. How possible. You think they are at this point. Now I know lots of people watching are going to know what you've said in several of the novels. About male female relationships but I would just like to hear you talk about what you think is possible at this point in time. I think we have to face the fact that we are raised as enemies. Boys are taught one set of rules and girls another and they are from a very early time acknowledged.

Enemies the boys won't talk to the girls and the girls won't talk to boys. And. Then there comes a point in adolescence where the culture says OK now everybody out of their corners get together genitals first relate and. They are forced to relate. As sexual. Prey or hunter or vice versa or partners. But the partnership is so limited. As to be. Extremely limited. Limiting to the rest of their lives and the whole history of the enmity eventually overpowers the genital attraction which was probably exaggerated to make up or cover up all of the other stuff that went before you don't suddenly come out of that corner at age 14. Loving Girls if you're a boy you don't love girls but you love the idea of whatever the culture has said to do with 2

4 against girls. And it's very poignant to see these total strangers who have been brought up and in such opposite worlds trying to come together and understand each other and reach some sort of basic friendship and base of mutuality that has nothing to do with sex but surpasses it and transcends it and makes a friendship. There are people that we all know who have never had a friend of the opposite sex because the basis for the relationship was supposed to be sexual attraction if you're not sexually attracted to the person. You didn't become that person's friend. And. I think this remains with us and until it's. Superseded by some other conditioning and training process. You're never going to get to the point where you begin as friends and end as lovers will begin as enemies become lovers. Obliterating the enmity and then the enmity will come out after the sexual exhilaration. So it is

possible. It's only possible if you retool if you retool for. Another industry which is learning to be human. And if you train all children to be human and to relate to all other children as human which is. Within reach if you don't have enforced male female separation from birth. If you do that. You have a chance. But I think even our children who have been raised in a culture with violently. Asserted. Differentiation at every level. Boys should do this. Girls must do that right. Girls cannot do this. If boys do that there is something wrong with them. You've got to eliminate a great deal of that before you will get a generation that relates as friends and then as lovers. Those three only have about a minute a minute ago we talk about obligation and

obligation to the reader. Do you feel an obligation to other women who write. As against other women who agree. Yes. Yes I think. I think one's obligation is to all women both writing and reading because one one is of them and one is speaking to them as friends. I won't say sisters but certainly as friends there is a link and the link between the one who comes after and the one who was in front. Is growing stronger. And you want to to and you feel a tremendous exhilaration from response not only from a woman who says to you I have read your book and loved it or it moved me but someone who says I read your book and now able to write because you've said things that I thought. I must always keep hidden. And so now the things that I feel hidden can come forward and that's quite a beautiful bond and that no I

thank you for being here. Thank you Suzanne. Thank you for watching and good night. This program was produced by w n e d TV which is soley responsible for its content. Major funding was provided by public television stations. Additional

support was provided by unrestricted general program grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the Ford Foundation.