WNYC; On the Line; COLON CANCER: THE FACTS ARE IN 10:05-10:20 ELAINE LANZA Ph.D SENIOR INVESTIGATOR IN THE CANCER PREVENTION STUDY AT THE NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE www.nci.nih.gov 301-594-2933 CT. KAREN SMIGEL

But the Federation Council Russia's upper house of parliament for approval. President Vladimir Putin also won the backing of Russia's Security Council for a new national military doctrine which upgrades the role of nuclear weapons. He is expected to sign it later today. The presidential money race continues to be tight. Republican George W. Bush has been raising far more than Democrat Al Gore. But Bush is spending more to leaving Gore with more available cash. NPR's Peter Overby has details. Texas Governor Bush has no fund raising limits because he isn't taking federal funds until the convention so he's raised close to 80 million dollars. But he's had to go back on the money circuit because the primary battle with Arizona Senator John McCain cost him two and a half to three million dollars a week. As of April 1st Vice President Gore had 10 million dollars in reserve versus 7.5 million for Bush but Gore is taking federal funds and he's hit the money raising limit even though Gore expects another 10 million from the Treasury. Bush can still out raise them. The Bush campaign has also invested more aggressively. It's dividends interest and other

income total more than a million dollars compared to less than 6000 for the Gore campaign. Peter Overby NPR News Washington. Negotiators for Northwest Airlines and its flight attendants union reached their second kind of contract agreement in less than a year. Bill Catlin reports from Minnesota Public Radio. Northwest 11000 flight attendants have worked without a new contract for three and a half years. Members of Teamsters Local 2000 rejected an earlier tentative agreement last August saying the proposed pay and benefit increases were inadequate. Union president Billy Davenport says the new agreement delivers improvements in the areas of greatest concern. Work rules retirement pay and compensation. Ultimately business will be the judge but we do have some pretty high figures here and we're pretty proud of the work that we were able to achieve because of the interest perseverance and the strong support pay increases range from 8 to 28 percent initially and pension benefits jumped nearly 86 percent. Northwest officials called the agreement a fair deal for all parties. For NPR News I'm

Bill Kaplan in St. Paul. A new law takes effect today that says Web sites that attract children cannot gather personal information from them without getting permission from their parents. Sites that do ask youngsters personal questions must also explain how they plan to use the information. The aim is to keep youngsters e-mail addresses school locations and other personal details out of the hands of marketers and molesters. The law grew out of a survey of kid directed Web sites that the Federal Trade Commission conducted two years ago. This is NPR News. Support for National Public Radio comes from NPR stations and Amgen advancing the frontiers of medicine and improving the lives of patients through biotechnology. This is WNYC am a 20 in New York and available online at WNYC dot org gets 10 0 for 48 degrees it's raining rain all day maybe a thunderstorm a high near 55. Good morning I'm Mark Holland. Aides to John Cardinal O'Connor say he is still too weak to celebrate Easter Sunday mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral that's coming up

Sunday. The Cardinals been in frail health since undergoing surgery last summer. He's awaiting word from the Vatican before he steps down as head of the Archdiocese of New York. The NYPD says emergency Nine one one calls have skyrocketed in the city due to the rising number of cell phones. WNYC Kerry Nolan reports the police department logged a staggering 2.5 million calls to 9 1 1 during the first three months of the year a rate about 14 percent higher than the same time in 1909. Cell phones now account for more than 23 percent of the total number of calls up from 10 percent last year. There are an estimated three million cell phone users in the city. In response to the number of calls Mayor Giuliani announced this week that the city will hire 175 more 9 1 1 operators. For WNYC I'm Carrie Nolan. Police are looking for a stolen statue in Brooklyn the 7 foot tall 1000 pound statue of the figure of victory was taken from a Saratoga Square Park in Bed-Stuy city

parks commissioner Henry Stern says he's outraged he's offered a reward for its return financial markets are closed today for religious observances and sports will be the Mets hosting the Chicago Cubs tonight weather permitting. While the Yankees are on the road in Toronto this afternoon rain today possibly a thunderstorm high 55 rain in the forecast tonight tomorrow into Easter Sunday. Forty eight degrees and raining at the moment WNYC twenty New York and online at WNYC dot org. It's 10 0 6. Early morning. I did my part for Brian Lehrer who is off all the next few days. I'm sorry about that but you're going to have to put up with me today. Actually I can't wait to hear what I have to say next so sit back and enjoy the ride I don't know what I say about

Good Friday. Do you say Happy Good Friday you say Happy Passover. HAPPY THIS HAPPY THAT Anyway it's a day of gloom for a lot of Christians may remember the crucifixion of Jesus Kupp a thousand years ago. And then of course all the things that are been done in his name the wars and people pointing out our defects of character and all because they say Jesus said that of course the stock market was closed because he drove the the money lenders out of the temple I suppose didn't want to go in today. So there we are. Anyway we have a very full program today so we won't delay that. Debate going on about the role of diet and colon cancer and a couple studies now have shown or suggested that a watch had been relied on the high fiber diet as not doing

the job that it was supposedly set out to do some time ago. A missionary I think called New York Times Dennis Burkett studied the differences in diseases between Africans and affluent Westerners and he thought that Africans high fiber diet protect them against colon cancer. And that thesis became as this says a dietary gospel prompting millions to change their diets. Now a study is showing that that is not exactly on the. So to discuss this and to throw some light on it for us. Dr. Gilbert s Ohman executive vice president for medical affairs the University of Michigan and Dr. Elaine Lanza Ph.D. sea investigator and the Cancer Prevention study at the National Cancer Institute. We'll talk about that. Are you there Dr. Allman. Yes indeed Good morning to you court and welcome thank you.

What is your opinion on this. I think the hypothesis is very well based hypothesis that low fat high fiber diet would protect against colon cancer and against colada correct talk polyps has basically been shattered by these two excellent studies. That you believe that is that is correct. Yes. The nature of scientific study in this area is to look for clues from epidemiological associations meaning if you can study people who have certain kinds of diets versus people of different kinds of people who are physically active versus those who are not physically active you try to make inferences and hypotheses based upon those associations. But those studies do not show cause and effect. So we should never say that because the study found that people with high fiber diet had a lower colon cancer rates that the high fiber diet provide the benefit of reducing the risk. We can only say that we hope that it might

have that benefit and we should test it in exactly the kind of randomized trials that the National Cancer Institute and the group organizing University of Arizona did conduct and were published in yesterday's new in the Journal of Medicine. Dr. Lanza. You're there with us yes I am. Your comment on that. Well I you know I do I agree with Dr. Ohman but with one exception is that you know we studied it when you do a study on Edelman's polyps. OK. It might already be too late in the process. OK. People already have this growth of polyps. We remove the polyps. We put them on an intervention OK and we follow it for three to four years and see if they have new polyps. And for this the conclusion the final conclusion from both of these studies is for people who have polyps. We do not reduce the recurrence of more polyps. And that's very important because 40 percent of people over 50 and 50 percent of people over 60 in this country have polyps. So for those

people just eating this diet is not going to prevent them from chemical rectal cancer. Does that mean for colon cancer and colorectal cancer what they seem to be yeah. Almost without a difference. Yes frenching it's a real real problem in the sense is that the large intestine. OK an entire large intestine consists of the colon and the rectum in our study we study polyps throughout the whole large intestine including the colon in the rectum. But sometimes scientists just say the colon and there are some etiological suggestions that there might be some difference in what might cause polyps or colon cancer in the colon versus the rectum. But I think for our purposes and for the discussion of the studies today we're really talking about the colon in the rectum together. That's exactly.

Right I think we should realize that it's quite likely that people vary in their risks and not all colon cancers are the same. Don't arise by exactly the same pathways. One of the totally open questions is whether every colon cancer has to start from a polyp of some sort and I know there is a progression that can be beautifully studies has been beautifully studied the show you stuff in the normal lining of the colon then you have these outgrowths or polyps called had no MS and they get to be more abnormal and then they can be a certain small percentage of them turn out to be cancerous but it is possible that some cancers arise through different pathway in the certain the many I've known as do not at least in people's lifetimes go on to produce cancers. So one of. It has always been if you put if you reduce the polyp the rate can you be confident that you also reduce the cancer rate let alone proportionally. That's a very hard thing to study up to answer.

It doesn't mean that the polyps are irritated by something like fact or by that causes them to become cancer. No I did you. Well two ways of explaining this and we really don't know. As a scientist OK is that it initially had it has been hypothesized that this type of diet fad diet would actually cause mutations in the colon. OK. Or even the bile we have more fat in your diet you end up having more bile acid and then more bile acid bile acids or salts in your colon that could irritate the colon. Then after that maybe you have a mutation and then that causes the growth of the polyp. That's one hypothesis and the other is that this diet once you have a polyp and see the polyp is pre-cancerous but not cancer. Then something in your diet could cause the growth of those non-cancerous polyps to cancer. So it's what the problem with cancer in studying the relationship between diet and cancer is

that cancer is a long process. Maybe 20 years in our study we looked at this four year window and we didn't see anything. OK. You know maybe the thing is that it might have an effect. And it's always possible with a negative study to say that it might have an effect later on from the growth of those polyps to the cancer where diet is more effective. Or it might be the case before you even see the first polyp your molecular a cell Your change is going on with the colon. And those are the period that we need to intervene with which is 20 or 30 years earlier. And that's why it's been so hard to do clinical trials with diet and colorectal cancer of any human surveillance. There is something quite special about these two studies and they looked actually at foods one of the criticisms about other kinds of nutritional studies like those with beta carotene which show the beta carotene actually causes cancers in the long causes more deaths from heart disease is that people said well if you just look at one nutrient out of all the food supply out of all the webs and fruits eventually. Those that might cause some kind of imbalance will hear

what was done is to take full diet have low fat high fiber but all the components involved in fat and fiber and the face that we brand study something along the same lines so it can't be argued that we the investigators missed the fiber component because they picked just one narrow component. It is true the fibers are very complicated. Biochemically studies have been done about fiber both in animals and studying what people eat have quite variable measures of what counts as fiber and what seems to be associated are not associated with the higher or lower risk. And the same thing for all the different kinds of fat in the diet as you probably know. If you have any idea how people can avoid colon rectal colorectal cancer Well there is there are. Other kinds of evidence are similar to the evidence for high fiber low fat of course which suggest that people who are more physically active

have lower rates of colon cancer colorectal cancer. People have adequate or possibly even higher than adequate levels of calcium in their diet and may have lower risk. People who take aspirin or other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents may have a lower risk concerning people who have no family history of colon colorectal cancer have lower risk. We have a larger incidence of this type of cancer in modern society than heretofore. Oh yes that was the point of Dr Burkett's observations in Africa 30 years ago exactly what where as in the in the in the scale of mortality in the United States like heart diseases tops the mortality here doesn't it. Colon cancer affects men and women. So I believe it is the second leading cause of death from cancers after lung cancer which is by far the first leading cause lung cancer.

I see 56000 people die in this year and he's up on 3 percent because they didn't have a diagnosed I mean is that the incidence rate of colorectal cancer is about one hundred thirty thousand people. OK slightly higher in men than women and slightly higher in black and white. Whenever I'm about the place and I'm looking at like everybody else my eyes go to the headlines in tabloids and around the new years there's always astrology productions that cure for cancer found in all of that. And that to me is like saying there's going to be a cure for Russia's I can't think you could get a rash on the top of your head soles of your feet and your armpits in the genital area the backs of your legs and rushes are caused by all kinds of things and so on. So cancer it seems to me that we can say cancer is just one single thing like colon cancer is simply calling cancer lung cancer is calling it now that but they can't be considered the same kind

they can say we're going to find a cure for cancer. No I mean that's one of the problems as even as Dr. Ohman had mentioned before there are many paths. People have passed I think two or three maybe four paths that we know molecular differences in the way even colorectal cancers. You are caught so you know that means and there's many different pathways for the various cancers I mean and because of the many transitions that go on in the process to cancer we have very protective systems ourself and we have maybe 100 different proteins that that are in the ones in the body that protect from just cause DNA repair. That would help us ourselves protect against cancer. Let me put it this way we should always speak of cancers in the plural. That's the right way of saying it. The so-called war on cancer 30 years ago which in many regards has been remarkably successful both clinically and laboratory studies was a very misleading title should have been war on cancer in the plural

so that we could recognize progress in some areas even if we have frustrations in others. A many people. When I grew up in Ireland as you might gather and then there was always an avoidance of using an excuse for using the word when there was high mortality due to tuberculosis wiped out thousands thousands of people and whole families and all that. So people never talked about it never used to be called it sometimes they would say consumption but they would say they have the weakness they would use the euphemism. And here I had when I came here first that people down there would whisper the big C and so there's an avoidance of admitting that it does seem to be prevalent any more people seem to be saying you know as a coalition I recognise I've been in medicine a lot of years now.

There is some attitude of great attitude of fear and some shame doctors to not shame I don't get it but. Lucky us to talk about it among some people but more and more and more people are very well informed and very eager to understand and to talk with others of the patient support groups are wonderful and it's a very changed social context. What do we look for are finally in detecting colon cancer. Let me say one thing that you haven't covered which is what advice we should give to PBS after these studies with regard to low fat and high fiber. I think we should still encourage people to eat such diets because even though there is this not this additional benefit in protecting as far as we can tell against colon rectal cancer we do know that such diets enhanced regularity of the bowels reduce the so-called status thing some sort of settling and sitting in the call that lead to diverticulosis and diverticulitis. And we think that this is. Good for

the bow. We also know from various studies that lower fat of various kinds is good for your heart and blood vessels. And we think it might be useful for some other conditions. So we would encourage people to continue with the diet regimen about national cancers too in by many public health authorities many clinicians of at least five servings of fruits and vegetables and more fiber in the diet. But we want to mislead anybody into thinking that there's evidence that that would reduce the risk of colon cancer at this time. Thank you Dr. Relman take you know Dr. Lanza for being on today throwing some light on the colon cancer. And the studies on the high fiber. Thank you so much. Thank you. Dr. Gilbert Allman executive vice president for medical affairs at the University of Michigan Dr. Elaine Lanza Ph.D. senior investigator in the council prevention study at the National Cancer Institute. Maliki McCourt. We'll take a break and I shall be back shortly. Supported by UN college E Channel dot com monitored and developed by board certified

oncologists translating medical information into consumer health education featuring oncology forum where questions about such conditions as breast cancer lung cancer and ovarian cancer are answered online at oncology channel dot com today at WNYC dot org 0 6 America and herself on public arts plus. The first chapter of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center supports WNYC for seven years ranked the number one cancer center by U.S. News and World Report. Your chances of beating cancer greatly improve with early detection precise diagnosis and the right treatment information at 1 800 5 2 5 2 2 2 5. Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center the best cancer care anywhere. WNYC is supported by museum shop dot com offering thousands of items from more than 40 museum shops around the world for scarves and sculpture. Toys and teapots

from the Louvre in Paris to the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York. Online at museum shop dot com. Now I give a thought. For Brian Lehrer. Here today and then of course the eloquent hope it will be on for two hours. Another area of dispute. Now I had to do with herbal supplements herbs and otherwise and we have on the line John. Dr. Jerome cancer editor in chief and writers of the New England Journal of Medicine and Dr. Kass Ingram author of numerous books including his latest life saving cures. How to cure how to use the latest and most powerful cures for the

21st century knowledge Charles I think we might have two sides of the story today. Some people use supplements I take vitamins myself. I don't know I mean people tell me you know they're good. Sometimes I say fine that sounds good to me and I follow along the guidelines for taking them. But there is a story here in The Washington Post about a woman who was taking if I think she had a stroke. And that apparently is causing a lot of concern. So doctor counselor Doctor do you want to comment on the whether these should be regulated. I think that's the area. Well you know it's interesting. This is Dr. Katz Ingram there. OK OK.

Yeah it would be interesting to know. Like for example in this case what the full history of the person was you know was an individual drinking all alcoholic beverages was the individual a smoker. You know one of their medications was the person taking what role did something like ephedra play which you know I'm not a big fan of the federal because it's more drug like than herbal but what real role did it play that before I could pass a judgment on that would be important to know. And this a Federal what how apart is that weight loss. Well you remember sand sand. Yes which was it. Total disaster. It's sort of our herbal fen phen kind of a thing because it's in the amphetamine family it's a it's a stimulant that it stimulates it raises the metabolic rate artificially in and sat you know virtually all drugs originated in some sort of a natural compound whether it be aspirin or digitalis or or even and

certain drugs today are natural extracts like Taxol which is so you know Yet one has to keep all of it in perspective. Sure that should raise some stink that anybody could die from anything that is administered whether it be by a doctor or from you know a store or whatever but keep it in perspective how many there are over a million heart defects from fen phen. Yeah you got to know the details that's first thing. Well if you were taking alcohol something else what that interaction is that what you're saying it would be disastrous if you're taking alcohol and you take amphetamines or even if and if it's an herbal amphetamine because again most drugs originated in herbs you know is it a synthetic ephedra that's. Just a crude Herb if it's a crude herb. Do you know of anybody lately that has been proven to die from eating garlic or taking garlic. I want to know is this the case but I've never been killed by somebody with garlic breath but

outside of that I have seen all fatal effects. Dr. Kessler Good morning good morning sir. Your comment. Well I guess the first question is why is the woman taking any of these magic potions in the first place. These agents these herbal agents in general have not been shown to have any benefit. And in general what we've seen is a kind of a massive hoax on the American people that this is these materials are beneficial and in fact I think that Dr. Ingram is right that the chance of any adverse effect from these supplements or whatever they're called is very small and for the most part people who are taking it are healthy to begin with. So the chance of their getting

sick from one of these herbal supplements is pretty small. It's not zero. But the big question in my mind is so why are we allowing people to take the materials that have no benefit. Would you do you know that for sure. What do you mean. I mean well yeah you know the fact is we don't know it for sure because these these magic potions have never been tested in a rigorous way in the way we test drugs and we have in fact the FDA was the ones ordered by Congress to allow these materials to go on the market basically in 1994 without testing which makes to me no sense whatsoever. What if we take the early

days of America when people went out to the west and they on the backs of the kind of style the wagons they had the snake oil pitches and that. But it was there. There was no they so they sold stuff like I suppose cocaine and some cocaine extracts and all that thing maybe Coca-Cola came from that. But there was no there were no restrictions on anything this all that. Would you say that's the situation here. Yes I would say that's exactly the situation here. There is no restriction. And so what we have perpetrated on the American public is an enormous commercial success of shark cartilage economic whatever these things are with absolutely no rationale. First of all no physiologic rationale that these materials have any benefit number one and secondly no studies that they have any benefit

and finally of course the issue of of Occasionally some of them doing harm. The issue of doing harm by the way is not only in the toxicity of these materials but also the delays that happen from time to time because people have taken these herbal potions instead of taking medication which might help them. But Dr. Jerome don't you think the medical profession is really threatened by this. No I mean I. Basically saying that that you feel that the profession feels threatened by the interest in the American public. Well what do you mean threatened. I mean the fact is that the what we're talking about is the the application of garden variety ordinary science to the use of these materials where it shouldn't it shouldn't be if I mean to be fair it shouldn't

offend Senate have been more readily regulated if you want to talk about regulation or fairness source or safety for if we're talking safety for the American public I hate this. Think of those 1 million or so people who have heart defects from fen phen or the 800000 every year who get liver toxicity from a set of cinnamon you know or the fact that the asthma death rate has gone up three hundred and fifty percent partly due to the toxic interactions of common asthma drugs. That is the first of all the first. Well your assertion death as was caused by a combination of drugs is not has never been subjected to. I don't put words in my mouth or laws but I said that part of the death rate increase has been related by major medical journals to the Interact drug interactions. I mean look I'm just trying to put it in perspective. I'm not saying one way or the other what our final judgment should be here but

if you look at deaths unfortunately this lady passed away and no one would wish that whatever interaction was there was not so she could be alive today but. But if you look at the fact that that JAMA the Journal of the American Medical Association one of your competing journals published that one hundred and ten thousand individuals die every year. We're talking about public safety I think this is what NPR is about hundred ten thousand die every year from drug reactions when drugs are wrongly prescribed in other words these are reactions not when the drug is correctly prescribed. So who knows what that number is but when they're actually wrongly or or over prescribe or the wrong drug for the wrong condition or maybe a wrong cup and the hospital gets to the wrong person. So you're saying the FDA is is is. Regulating these drugs but they are not they are causing fatal effects on people and they're not regulating the

supplements. And we're still having fatalities. So what is the solution to this. This is you've just given a specious argument as it is not surprising for the people who support herbal supplements. The idea that drugs ordinary drugs cause fatalities is well-known. In fact the idea is that we evaluate drugs carefully by controlled trials. We know that there is a benefit risk ratio to the use of certain drugs. To all drugs for that matter even penicillin people die of penicillin. Would you not give someone penicillin for a strep throat or for end a card itis. If you knew that there was a small risk of death of course you would get it would you not subject someone to open heart surgery just because you know that some people die from open heart surgery.

Of course you would not the point is and a point about Fen-Phen is that that drug those that combination of drugs that the combination was not known was not studied. First of all it was that combination of the two drugs was not studied rigorously before the two were allowed to be put on the market and the consequence was that no one knew what the outcome might be. That with Jordan with every single drug there are now controlled trials the FDA requires at least two controlled trials for every single drug. Are there complications from drug therapy. Of course there are. And the point is that the benefit is greater than the risk and that's why we use drugs. Well you can't have your hand in both pies a fact that FDA members. Board members and staff members of pharmaceutical firms after leaving the FDA and you know you're mixing one or the other here so I don't mind that. Now I know you see this is again this is another specious argument which has nothing true at all nothing to do whatsoever with the subject that we're

discussing. Well if you're trying to deflect you're trying to deflect the point that there are these alternative medicine potions which are worthless which have never been tested tested scientifically and which occasionally cause harm. Which doctor if I was to tell you that there is a substance completely natural that could save millions of lives every year and that it is being currently researched at a major medical university and that it is undergoing rigorous studies would you be interested if that substance could if done to the medical profession save lives when absolutely right. Well then I can tell you that there are hundreds but I have in my hands an example of one of many. So you know how many people get sick from food poisoning every year in this country. Million see one again and again again and again. You're avoiding the central point and that is that we're dealing with a bunch of materials

which have no demonstrated efficacy and some that have toxicity and that people are taking these things they're wasting their money on junk and occasionally they're harmed by them. I wouldn't second have some people join in this discussion this is this is great. So they were from Westchester. Are you that I am now. Yes. I fall between the two gentlemen that you have on. In my view of some fault I would say that the problem is not so much the materials. Any material could have some biological effect that's a fact of real life chemical bio chemical life whether it's a natural material or an artificial material there's nothing significant about that. The problem with these supplements is that they are being marketed as pills. They look like pills and people take them like pills and as a consequence they take far more than they

can take far more than they would get in their ordinary diet. And there are quite a number of substances in the natural world that are poisonous as hell. Black Widow venom for instance is perfectly natural and there are at least in the last the last two to six I have there are at least 30. Thirty seven thirty eight something like that. People who are suspected to have died from ingesting supplements of one kind or another. If you're going to present it to the public as a pill looks like a pill makes claims however cleverly phrased that it will help you with A B C D or whatever. Then it is my sense that it is the government's obligation some government's obligation to look at those pills to see that they don't kill people or ruin people's liver which is far more common actually than death. And. Because of stupidity on the part of Congress and pressure from the industry we want to make whatever we damn well please and put in a pill and make it available. Then regardless of testing because of

stupidity Congress and the food supplement act and I think it was 70 in 94. There is no government check of any kind whatsoever. Fully funding tific partially scientific or anything I can put dirt in a pill and say anything about it. And because of that stupid law no one looks in any way whether it's proper scientific studies or improper scientific study. Thank you very much. We have to move on OK. Thank you. I know your caller your caller is right on target. What what these manufactures do is make claims not for the cure of disease but to sustain health. They'll they'll say drug X for prostate health or drug X for for heart health or things like that make all kinds of claims over mental health make all kinds of claims where there is no evidence whatsoever that the material is has any benefit at all.

Well you're wrong about the lack of evidence. There's a vast plethora of evidence on a wide range of natural substances showing advocacy. I do agree also with the car and the fact that if any substance whether it be a surgical procedure or bear aspirin or. Ephedra or a drug that's already been released shows any evidence of harming the public. Massive scrutiny should be levied against it and any herb with the potential of toxicity should be tested before it's allowed into the marketplace. That is definitely true but you can't deny or dispute the powerful effects of garlic and lowering cholesterol lever's levels whether it be eating garlic or taking it as a supplement if it's properly prepared. Or the fact that there are double blind studies on herbal is the German commission for one example or this study that I have in my hands from Georgetown Medical Center. You wouldn't want any of this repressed if it helped the public without harm would you doctor. I'm in favor of full disclosure of all studies

of all materials. It doesn't matter whether they're herbal or drugs or anything of the sort. Full disclosure open to the public and publish in medical journals peer reviewed medical journals not in journals that are owned and operated by the companies that make herbal materials. So I am I am I am. There what I want open disclosure of everything and how do you do. Prove any supplements or remedies for anything. I certainly wouldn't recommend it for any any herbal supplements for anybody in my family or anybody that I know for anything for anything. No if I did you know that nothing I would I would urge people to stop taking herbal medication type taking herbal medicines. I would urge them to even even garlic you know as Dr. Ingram just said I like garlic by God let him have it let them eat garlic but there are many other much more

potent ways of getting cholesterol down and including diet and exercise and and very powerful effective and virtually and drugs have a powerful effect of drugs which have virtually no side effects. I want about the one that Dr. Ingram had. The GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY Well he didn't say what it is isn't it. Well here it is by a doctor of mine are approved and associates of medicine the herbal oils anti-microbial effects of the edible oil of oregano to be published in major medical journals and investigators found that without any question a special spice oil destroyed all candidate album cans and brought culture micro diluted it down to a tenth of a percent still destruct destroying the the the growth of all Candy which is an epidemic you know yeast infection germ tube production was completely halted. Then mice were infected with a human variant of

Canada of the cans. This is a cruel joke. No not a doctor I will let you talk. You let me finish please. All right. Finish the cruel joke on how all scientific study starts. The basis and moves on. Don't read I don't like to see Rip repressive rip pression we still have freedom of speech I would hope the mice were infected with a very toxic type of candidate of a cancer. All the mice died. Those mice however which were given a small amount of this natural safe herbal substance all of them lived when the animals were sacrificed this is the study the study is current. It will go on from here. When the animals were sacrificed you could not grow candied out of their organs that candidate had been erased. During that monumental I want to say bully for the mice.

Who knows whether that medication or that stuff in there it will have any benefit whatsoever in the doses that it would be used in humans. You know you know you don't want to be. I'm sorry John but you're not letting me finish. We have come to an end. I want to thank you both very much for being on and lively discussion there. So thank you Dr. cassava. You're welcome and thank you Dr. Ingram sia. All right all the best. Their Way are. All the lines got let up there. I think the very very passionate very passionate feelings about this whole business of the herbs and I'm going to go to soapbox now. And that's 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. Maliki McCourt here for Brian Lehrer. And we will take your calls after this

break. WNYC is supported by the New York Times on the web providing you with information and insight throughout the day on the web and why time's dot com John Tavener is haunting music for Princess Diana's funeral touched millions. It's a rare appearance in the U.S. on Thursday May 4th. Sir Paul McCartney the acclaimed scholars and others join him performing Taverners mystical works including a world premiere. TAVENNER will play the organ at St. Ignatius Loyola Church eighty fourth Street and Park Avenue. It will be his first and perhaps only American performance. More info on the concert and our live broadcast at WNYC dot org. Tickets at Ticketmaster 2 1 2 3 0 7 4 1. WNYC is supported by trying Mark pictures presenting the last September directed by celebrated theatre and opera impresario Deborah Warner starring Academy Award winner Maggie Smith with Michael Gambon own Jane Burke and Fiona Shaw and was based on Elizabeth

Cohen's novel The last September. Now playing in theaters. Now to give us more to go on to know 1:00 on this Good Friday and it is not the soapbox which has been assembled and hammered into place and it's stand tall you get up on it. I want to do a plug here for a book called The Sayings of journalists. Giuliani assembled by Kevin McAuliffe and welcome Raine is the publisher and in the interest of full disclosure I wrote the introduction and it's all of the journalist's own words and it's published with the little like the little red book of Mao the sayings of. So I think you might there are the thoughts of Mao went there. So anyway you might want to see what the man has to say

about himself it's quite hilarious the foot in mouth of the journalist himself. I saw some of the march yesterday over the Brooklyn Bridge when I was leaving this building a huge march and then the security around City Hall I find that very irritating that security around there. You can't walk through anymore. The journalist has. Why is it that people with such huge egos think that they are being threatened. It's such an amazing. Who would want to harm. It's only the good die young good people are assassinated. Not people like Giuliani and here we are the holy days. Passover Easter. Your thoughts on that. I was rather saddened to hear on the radio this morning that a group of the IRA continued diarrhea or some bloody thing like that that were determined to keep the war going despite the Good Friday Agreement of

just two years ago today. That scene's seems very sad to me that some people have that they have nothing else to do I suppose one is going to stop all this sort of ethnic religious wars it seems that Arabs and Jews and Pakistanis and the Indians and there have been eons of the blacks whites men and women. It's got to stop somewhere. We've got to stand back and have a look at it and stop this rancorous stuff these hatreds take away. As Shannon Casey said our hearts of stone and gave us hearts of flesh. Oh right in Washington Heights. Yes good morning. The morning first thing I would like to say that it's it's weird that this that this people have never mentioned not even once the fact that before modern medicine became

all of the region killing everything that this herbal remedies have been used all over the world in Europe you know you need all your friends you know in Russia here by the natives in South America if you use a lot. And this gentleman was saying that these these have nothing nothing to do with our health. Nothing ever happens to us produced by these are positive or negative. I mean these are the very best so ignorant. I think part of the thing is that there is no I think he's point I think mainly was that there was no regulation because we don't know what goes into but I think that they should be rigid that there is exactly the fact that the pharmaceutical industry is so strong. Oh yes it is not letting these these these natural remedies to be regulated everybody wants it to be regulated that it cannot find out on the bottle of this remedy. Yeah what is the door physical heart of me. Yes that's

that's ridiculous. But yeah by that by doing that they basically making them potentially dangerous to us. Yes I personally I don't think any of that. You know I don't think any I don't think by them to think anything but I find it so weird that. You know you know all these Company us so threatened by it to the point of wanting to eliminate them for the market and the things that they have no I think I say Yes thank you very much Max. Thank you. What is on Long Island. I'd like to comment on the failure of the journalistic community in reporting the resignation of the Italian from the air. I heard on NPR Radio National as a matter of fact and three other stations radio and television that the premier of Italy name out was a communist and led a communist

government. And this is of course completely untrue because he's a socialist as a as a as is Blair of the U.K. You sure are Germany and your span of France and others and Italy in the last. During the administration of doubt I condemn Russia for its actions and to change support of the American military action in Kosovo approved the use of its airfields supported the NATO in just about every other and every NATO NATO Venger supply troops. The UN police actions throughout the world in fact more Italians are involved in police actions and from any other nation. And I I think 100 Leonardo DiCaprio would have done better. From that resignation of the Indian Premier then the news of this so-called journalist who handled it on radio and television saying that it was not the cause of his resignation as a result of the resignation is that he

is a failure in the regional actions indicated that he didn't have support your party did not have support and he resigned rather than going to a vote of no confidence was that there was no there was no vote of no confidence yet but he decided not to not to risk it. Yes he was going to risk it. Let's see John on Staten Island. Hi this is Jan. Yes John I want to talk about the herbal medicine issue just a little bit. Sure. I have some professional training background in Chinese medicine and chinese herbal medicine and particularly related to the use of ephedra. Ephedra has been misused by the nutrition industry in this country in order to make money. The Chinese don't use it as an herbal. And then the Chinese have thousands of years of clinical experience using these herbs in very small amounts of ephedra are used in formulations with other herbs very small amounts and it's usually used for long

issues and what it does is it will open up the bronchial tubes. So it's an asthma yet for treatment of asthma and colds wheezing that kind of thing. And then walk amongst the people know what they know what amount. Well when I don't feel well I go to Chinatown and walk into an herbalist and let them treat me. The last formula I had was for a cough. And she gave me herbs that I had to take home and cook and it was in Chinese and I'm not quite sure what was in them. But she also gave me a patent formula and all the information was on the bottle. And I think a federal IT WAS 5 percent of that tax in that particularly formula. It would be different in each one. And I did not get a rush I didn't get high I didn't get stimulated it didn't change my appetite on this use of the drug like I say as an honorable friend. Then if Americans think it's nephew chinese herbal medicine

thank you very much. Right. Lousy Oh and white stone. Good morning sir. Adding gold rush. Oh I just whatever that means to write that story a dispute was most interesting and enlightening. I wish there was a possibility that if John and German in order to show that you were indeed sincere about what you stated would you be willing to take the confrontation to a lie detector test. Look into each other's eyeballs and see that what you say is indeed something that you sincerely believe in. Furthermore we see an impossible direct enjoyment to state by state whether or not there is any financial stake in that in the possibility of of finding the outcome valid I think it was interesting you found something could have been staged. I think of course as medical medical persons that make their

living and medicine so and Dr Ingram has books and Dr. Kessler. Was editor in chief of The New England Journal of Medicine So yes of course they do have financial stakes but in Britain a few more words does that mean I just had to read just a few more. Yes oh shit what I stiffly implying but restrict the content but what do you think do they don't really question if you are not what they think you know with the statuary of course I'm inclined. I am inclined to appalled invalidity of the person who who is well I don't know on the ID card I don't have to describe exactly but that it was there was one who would know the conventions that I'm sure many of us thought could not could not be had learned if it had been a possibility for the university to rise up.

Thank you. Let's see Stuart on City Island. Good morning my woogie Good morning. First let me say both my wife and I are longtime admirers of you but additionally I'm a longtime admirer of the late actor Spencer Tracy. Ah well you referred to us that day and I think you did Mr. Tracys reputation some amount of calm. I do agree he suffered from alcohol as a right and probably was a nasty drinker I've been aware of that. But you label them as being a right winger and a fascist. No I didn't say fascist. Well something pretty close to that. And if anything quite the opposite was true. Mr. Tracey was was such a liberal he was a close personal friend of the late Justice William O Douglass. And I've learned that in his later years he made several film appearances with Walter Brennan in supporting

roles and he and Mr. Brennan used to get in violent political arguments and Mr. Brennan was a well-known right wing. Yeah. And Mr. Tracy constantly challenge him with his own liberal principles. And I'm sorry I couldn't get through to you yesterday because it was late in the program. That's all right. When I was going by what Katharine Hepburn said about what Which What would she know about Spencer Tracy. She shared his bed and she said that you know that he was a right winger. And I I went by that because they were very close. I have several several books that you know go into his life in some detail and the one that found everything everything implies that you know he was a supporter of Harry Truman. He was violently

opposed to the Hollywood blacklists and was he really. Yeah I guess I got my information might not have been active. Yeah. You know he might not have been upfront as the Bogarts right one Thank you Stuart. Thank you for further reading on that and we'll probably get back to again so for the moment I will withdraw all my erroneous comments about Spencer Tracy and I thank you. Let's see. Barbara in Manhattan you have a minute. You know that. Yeah. Can you hear me now. Yes like all it's a pleasure to hear you like that up. Anyway I want to talk about the herbs and the vitamins but first I'd like to tell you and your listeners that there's going to be one of the largest global prayer of Sunday the 23rd this Sunday by our worldwide scientists and the information is

website Greg Barry G R E T T. B as in boy r a and dot net. And it's going to be measured by soaring because spiritual awareness and getting together spiritually can be tested throughout the world. So we may bring peace and some areas of the world. Interesting idea right. So now I have. Ten seconds. OK. I would not be alive if it weren't for vitamins and herbs. And I suggest that your listeners will check out the website triple w drug awareness that or because the third leading cause of death are prescription drugs not vitamins and herbs Cama would love to get their hands on vitamins and herbs for the money. I'll kind of way I'm done for this. Thank you very much Barbara. OK I'll be back with John Micklethwait When we talking about

immigration at the top of the hour and then Max Frankel the times of my life and my life with the times and I'm still mad I came a call from Brian Lehrer. Stay tuned for the news. Outlet. From NPR News in Washington I'm Carl Kasell. A spokeswoman for the Justice Department said today that Attorney General Janet Reno is still open to any proposal for a negotiated transfer Leon Gonzalez to his father Juan Miguel Gonzalez. But she is looking to her law enforcement agents today to recommend how and when to remove the boy from the home of his Miami relatives spokeswoman Carol floorman pro-trade

Reno is virtually out of options other than law enforcement. Russian lawmakers are ratified another important arms control agreement the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. NPR's Michele Kelemen reports from Moscow. The Duma voted overwhelmingly to approve this just one week after lawmakers ratified START to this sudden interest in arms control treaties comes amid a U.S. Russian dispute over Washington's plans to build a national missile defense. Moscow is trying to block this and the Duma decision to ratify START to end this could strengthen Russia's hand in talks with Washington. The approval of the sea may also help Russia upstaged the United States at a conference next week on nuclear nonproliferation. The Clinton administration failed last year to persuade the Senate to ratify the test ban treaty. Meanwhile at the Kremlin today acting President Vladimir Putin and his security council finalized a new military doctrine which boosts the role of nuclear weapons. Michele Kelemen NPR News Moscow.

Italian president Carlo trompe is scheduled to finish consultations today with Italy's political leaders on a replacement for a prime minister. The Leymah who resigned this week. It is believed that Treasury Minister Giuliano Amato was in line to succeed the name of the Italian president has the option of calling a special election. He is unlikely to do so because it would block a referendum on reforming the electoral system that he wants to see go through a model was prime minister of Italy in 1992 and 1993. President Clinton and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat held three hours of talks with the White House last night as Israeli Palestinian peace negotiations enter a new intensified phase. NPR's Ted Clark reports. The President and Chairman Arafat spent much of their time together in one on one conversation. Mr. Clinton was said to be encouraged by the discussion. The same reaction he had when he met with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak last week. Negotiators have set September 13th as the target date for reaching a final peace

agreement one that would resolve the most difficult issues dividing Israelis and Palestinians. There have been two rounds of negotiations in the United States this year and a third round is scheduled to take place in the Middle East at the end of the month. There are American mediators will be at the table for the first time before meeting with Arafat President Clinton told reporters the issues are difficult but he said I think they can be bridged. Ted Clark NPR News Washington. This is NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the Florence and John Schumann foundation for support of independent noncommercial public affairs reporting and the estate of Elizabeth MORAN Oh this is WNYC. I am a 20 and WNYC dot org at 11 0 4 light rain falling right now we will have periods of showers and thunderstorms possible today with highs near 55 right now 48 degrees in Central Park Good morning. I'm superior Johnson more teachers than anticipated have signed up to teach summer school in New York

City. The school system has 16000 to 200 people agreeing to teach but interim schools chancellor Harold Levy says he still doesn't want to offer a program as large as last year. Mr. Levy says this year summer classes will primarily be for students in city schools who need extra help to be promoted to the next grade. Striking nurses at Nyack hospital have defied a hospital ultimatum to return to work or be fired. The nurses burned the letters ordering them back to work last evening. Some 450 nurses at Nyack hospital have been on strike since December. The main stumbling block has been a merit pay system the hospital wants to implement livery cab drivers are to meet next week with police and city hall officials to discuss strategies on how to protect drivers from a rash of robberies. Last night four more livery cab cabbies were robbed. No one was seriously hurt but all were shook up from having guns and rifles pointed at them. Drivers in New Jersey are seeing higher gas prices considerably higher than last time this year. This time last year rather Jean Dillard has more.

The average price of regular unleaded gasoline in the Garden State now stands at a dollar forty six a gallon. Jim Benton executive director of the New Jersey Petroleum Council. So fuel costs appear to have stabilized after rising substantially since last Easter weekend prices should have increased proximately 40 percent and so is increased refinery production and a rising implored level should help reduce prices now even though they generally increase with the start of the summer driving season. Or WNYC I'm Jean Dillard in Trenton. The Yanks and the Mets both in play today. Periods of showers thunderstorms possible WNYC at 11 0 6. I like him a lot. The 21st of what April 2000. Another hour to go before Leno to locate and this radio station is very lively kid of

75 and of course there have been many programs and many of them have been recorded and there are archives. So from the archives the WNYC archives governor Smith the happy warrior talks of the process of assimilation of immigrants in New York City back on September 9 1943. But other than a hundred chairs we have a record of assimilating more different kinds of people red white and black than any city in the wild. But we must not fool ourselves. It hasn't always been easy. For instance the first big wave of emigration from Ireland began about 100 years ago. The Irish who came to New York came here it was gay poverty. I do enjoy the privilege of freedom of worship. They brought with them a strong tradition warm family life. I'm as lively an

imagination as any people I'm not they found prejudiced when they came. When they look for jobs they would often find signs that read No Irish Need Apply. But New York City made room for them and they made a place for themselves in New York. No sooner had the Irish arrived than hundreds of thousands of people came from the central part of Europe. They spoke strange languages they practiced many religions they had. No in grinding poverty depression they came to America to find the chance that the countries of that boy never gave them and they ran into even stronger prejudice prejudices against the way they talk the way they dress and the way they live. But these people from Central Europe found a place for themselves. I mean New York City made room for them. Then came the people from Southern Europe mostly latin gate willing to white but driven away from home by the need to make a living. The newer immigrants

clashed with the older one people whose families had lived in New York a hundred years or more look down on these interlopers and even took a suspicious attitude towards all foreigners. But in time they grew to understand them and manage to get along together in harmony. After all when people live close together they find they have more and more things in common. They begin Brach by doing business with h other then they strike up friendships that children go to the same school. Your neighbor helps you want you help him out and gradually community projects develop and the members of that community get the sense of all belonging. One common group. Oh that's the happy warrior governor Al Smith who was in the here run for the presidency and 28 roundly defeated because he was a Catholic. When he was up there on the

assembly which was the playground of Yalies and Harvard people at one time and they were all talking about having gone to and having gone to Harvard. They asked him what he's university was and he said FFM which was the Fulton Fish Market. Yeah. Interesting the way talks foists. And very very New York man. He got very bitter after. The Democrats rejected him in 1932 anyway and he became president and responsible for the building of the Empire State Building. But anyway here we go again with immigration. Now there are many people who are very much opposed to folks coming in they are the folks that built the country. John Micklethwait. Oh Say Can You See The Economist. They love the March 2000. John figures that the trade and technology will

take second place to the immigrants. That's right John. Yes it is. I think what if you look at America I had the chance to stand back and spend a couple of months trying to think about what the future of America what the important things would be and what intrigues me really with all the things that people were talking about at the same time with things like the new economy or new technology. Yes I think in the long term the biggest change which is happening at the moment is in terms of people. That's the biggest demographic change but basically a sentry. And what's interesting is listening to outlets because really the sort of eloquence he did. He bestowed he was telling a story which is really in some ways being written all over again and with the same opportunities and a few of the same dangers. Why I think it is that you point out that the most recent immigrants are the most recent arrivals are the ones most opposed to further immigration. I'm drug really the priest from Chicago the novelist and

sociologist and what have you. He said that the Irish came here and climbed the ladder of success and then the pull the ladder up after them. And it seems that seems to be the case again doesn't it. It is very difficult to say. I mean a lot of a lot of anecdotal evidence. True I mean the polling evidence is sort of mixed but that does seem to be a general thing that when you've just got in and you've just fought like hell to come to this country yet and you push yourself through that temptation that when you've just established yourself you suddenly see that somebody younger perhaps will work for less money has arrived and he might take your job most of the job displacement immigrants do in some other recent immigrant. So it's a sort of it's supposed to be the area where the most pressure is. Well that was when the black stuff that went on during the civil American Civil War the

Irish against blacks was again there were the Irish were afraid the freeing of blacks would take their jobs. Of course they did fight in the Civil War but it was because of the thing that the they figured that the United States should not be broken up. The constitutional issue but it wasn't on the issue of slavery because they were not in favor of abolition of slavery at all. That's right America as a whole has a very schizo phrenic attitude toward immigration if you look at most of the numbers. Two thirds of people will say they don't want any more they don't want any more immigration. That's enough people. They don't want to like it. Illegal immigration. And yet two thirds will also say that somebody should always have the right to bring his brother or sister or a parent to the same country not just his children. And as long as you keep going with the second you always can have fairly large immigration. You know most prejudice against Asians particularly the Chinese at the turn of the century when they didn't have there were

no Chinese were not allowed in they were they made fun of them they movies you see old movies where they have very survival Chinese running on scene chop chop Missi Missi you know that kind of ridiculous stuff these guys shooting and making them dance by shooting bullets at their feet and that sort of thing that is there's is sort of a fear that there's going to be an Asian overrun that there are so many Chinese that they're going to come in and that everybody will be Chinese by 2050. I think the main I think Mr. I think most of the demographic pressure is actually coming from Latinos not Asians. But if you talk to Asian Americans they certainly feel as if they are in the firing line. They tend to be less politically powerful but they they a furious for instance that most of the Clinton fundraising scandal kept on targeting Asian American people at the main donors and they often get very angry about

things like the case of Wen Ho Lee who's a Chinese-American scientist and writings held under different charges. And they think that they're you know they're represented wrongly and if you talk to Asian Americans he will you know discover quite a lot of the history which the rest of America has forgotten is still remembered acutely. You know right up to the problems with Japanese-Americans during the war and so on. Well the Chinese had a large part of course in building the building the railroads and the United States. That part didn't want to get on its own. I noticed yesterday I was walking when I left. I was looking at the police that were assembled to ward off the effects of the march yesterday here in New York. I notice that when I'm among the hundreds of police that I saw maybe thousands maybe I saw I saw two Chinese police officers. That's a very bad under-representation.

Yes and that's that's always been us and that's always been a problem particularly Asian. So there's quite a lot of Latino policemen now in Los Angeles. I mean you know in a weird and terrible way the recent scandal at Los Angeles Police Department been having in some ways show that it's progressed because a lot of the people being held up or being accused of doing things wrong and actually you know American officers but there isn't. I mean obviously that's not implying it was the most the most acceptable time for folks. John Latino Hispanic. I mean when it's a Latino I have to admit that it is a less than perfect whichever term you use seems to annoy people. I think that's actually basically want to put one of the things I also discovered I mean trying to get around to trying to write about this is that immigration is such a sensitive area that it tends to been hijacked by people either on the extreme right or the or the extreme left on the one side you have all the multiculturalist you've actually any phrase you use somebody will get you into trouble. On the other side you have some quite nasty

right wingers who are extremely worried about immigration on a largely racist grounds. The bush is constantly referred to there. When George Bush Sr. He talked about these little brown grandchildren and George I think speak Spanish doesn't he and he speaks pretty good conversational Spanish. Al Gore is also tried rather laughably so it seems to be very much the flavor of the Year at the moment. Well that's when the Latino population there is increasing I mean 40 percent of California will be or is. Yes it's around. I mean you can argue by some what might be described as old white Californians already a minority that the census is one of those terribly difficult things where exactly how people are categorized. It's difficult to say. I mean the main big factor I think about America is if you look forward to 2050 by then one out of three

people like that the Latino or Asian American obviously you know there will be the one I was one of the three will be either Latino or Asian American and the others will be the others will be white black. I think Pacific island for some reason this uniquely singled out for special things but very soon the Latinos will pass the blacks as the largest single minority. Now you're going to see a building from that position and so you're British yourself. I am British Yes. And so that you are rapidly becoming a minority. Well yes I would actually guarantee you Carney's being back in England I feel less of the minority that I I don't think I know I think whites will to the extent that I identify within those groups I think that I think for some time I can't see a lot of places in America. Immigration is not happening as quickly as the sort of. There are there's a there's a myth that the whole of America is

gradually going to move toward California but are actually going to end up. Demographic In fact if you could dissect the demographics what's happening is that some places are already much more diverse than California and New York is one such as Los Angeles. But then there are a lot of other cities which are in some ways becoming more white or often more white and a bit more black. Not so much Latino or Asian. So the melting pot is happening in some places but not so much in others. Well now isn't there. What was I reading something about a lot of folks from the hills of Vietnam what was the tribe that evolved in the war and so many of them are over here working in the meat industry in Iowa of all places. I think it is either Laotian Laotian apologize if I'm pronouncing that name wrong long among among you know among Yes yes. Now I believe there are very much taking over many towns and communities in Iowa where you are expected to be the

all-American families and situation so-called all-American because they are now. In themselves they were even spotted at the Iowa caucuses. Oh really. One or two turned up. That's it. Yes but you know the truth is that in one sense it's happening everywhere you can find every single state you can find something somebody you wouldn't expect to be that being that. But at the same time there are some places that are much more densely packed. Do you think that the sentiments expressed by that high intellectual brain of John Rocker the baseball player about all these foreigners in New York does that reflect what your what you have found it. It reflects I think. I think it reflects the worries of a lot of Latino politicians and intellectuals. That is what poor

white Americans think about these arrival. He's a multimillionaire. He is a multimillionaire and he's done astonishingly well. It doesn't excuse from it any of the things he said. Right. I think that I think that people think that there is a worry and I think it is a legitimate worry that the type of immigration that America is having at the moment is fine as long as the economy is going well. Yes but what happens if things go wrong if things turn down the bubble but whatever whichever analogy you want to use. How many more kind of John Rocker's will come creeping out from under stones. Well I can't imagine that John Rocker will go cleaning out the lavatory of any restaurant no matter what. No as I make very clear in my article that the argument for immigration I think a fairly convincing I mean but it does America enormous good. On the other hand it's also fairly clear that most of the benefits of immigration. Not all but most go to the actual people who have arrived here. And so and also by the same

token there are some people who loosen immigration you started off by mentioning something often recent immigrants themselves. And it tends to be slightly at the kind of poor end of society. You could argue on the other hand the baseball players are one of the people who suffer from immigration because you get people a Sammy Sosa coming in to take people chalk I think. He deprived me of what I'm sure you were waiting as being and being the front row of a rugby club I think. I think it also ties into much the wider issues. I mean you can look at things like the battle about China joining the WTO and I should confess I'm the writer of a book coming out about globalization immigration tied into a lot of that name the book of John called The Future Perfect future perhaps in about three weeks time. Problem books crime books or a shameless plug. Yeah I think you know I think there's a I think it is it is relevant to what's happening with immigration people the way that immigration continues changes the way that America thinks about

things. You can see a little bit on the China issue. You can see a little bit on relations with Latin America. You can see a lot in the current Gonzalez case. Yes now the Cuban that powerful group there. They're there and I think as powerful they are the dominating group in Miami of the not the dominant group. I think yes they are. I think their power actually to some extent is exaggerated particularly by the politicians. And if you look at the both Bush and Gore both bent the need towards them. Yeah. Obviously Bush but then Gore also changed his mind. Yeah. But if you look at the arithmetic on it the Cuban Americans do not account for a large share of Florida Florida's vote. I think the main thing about the Cuban Americans to remember is that they are completely different really to all other immigrants is that most other immigrants as you very

forcefully put a cross in the segment of the beginning. Most people came here for a new life. They built something that they were the people who got up came for a long way pushed their way into the country and finally made it work. The Cubans by contrast were driven out and always want to go back whereas most of the Latinos who've come here largely been from poorer parts of their own country. The Cubans who came here were mainly middle class. And so they always had a completely different attitude that enterprises that built Miami into the capital of Latin America it's a sort of wonder to behold. So they are still fixated by Castro and now you have the awful example of what they're doing to that child. Right. Would you call yes Steve from Brooklyn. Good morning. Then Maliki Maliki I'm sorry. That's all right then one of the last of the Old Testament and Ryan's Hope was that I've been one of your fans ever since Ryan Phillippe called man yourself and also had the good

fortune of meeting your brother on the street. Seventy second and Broadway and he graciously gave me an autograph today so my esteem for the McCloy family is very high. You'll have very good taste. Thank you. The question I had for your guest is that nowhere in the conversation so far has he mentioned the contribution of Jewish Americans to America. I'm Jewish I was born in Wisconsin the heart of the Midwest and a lot of times I'm very troubled by the fact that a lot of the immigration laws that were passed by our government were surrounded by anti-Semitism. In the State Department and also in other reaches of the government and in one sense could have contributed to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's unwillingness to allow Jews out of Germany. When the Holocaust was in its infancy and Hitler could have been defeated earlier had the allies bombed the railroads and

other things it also a little bit bothered by the fact that your guests government especially Winston Churchill happened to just draw a line in the sand and Israel was made a very small country and Jordan that was Jordan was made a country without any. I guess there was no state of Jordan I was just given as a large piece of land to Arabs who had a lot of land in that part of the Middle East I was hoping that your guest would. Common Oh you have Jewish immigration. Go ahead John. I think I think you exaggerate the omniscience of The Economist even to know huge amount about Middle Eastern politics as well as about America I think probably leave aside the question what happened in Jordan probably for another show. Yes this is dealing with the shaking you see here. Yes I think I think the two things about Jewish immigrants yes. Obviously they were

hugely important at the turn of the century and I think they still continue to be important and you look at what's happening now with a lot of Russian Jewish immigrants who appeared and started to contribute a great deal. I think also you're right exactly that there was the terrible law passed in 1900. I think you can put. And some of those laws were indeed I think basically anti-Semitic because a lot of nonsense about head sizes and things like this. What happens I think it's not entirely unfair to say that that actually did contribute towards the size of the Holocaust because it prevented more Jewish Germans from escaping Germany and coming to America. And I think the underlying lesson of this is that if you play around with immigration if you try and stop it you can have unforeseen consequences far beyond anything that you started with. I think on the other hand it's worth you know it's worth at the same time America paying a lot of attention to immigration because if things bubble over and the John

Rockers of the world win and you do end up with laws which have terrible repercussions up or else. Thank you very much. Bob in Manhattan. Let you hear me. Yes. Number whatever. You talking about John Rocker and I think what he said was appalling. But but. It's Charles Barkley who actually made the comment that he hates white. And nobody nobody says a blasted word about it. It's it's really political correctness gone crazy. I did my talk but it sure nobody How did you know he said it it was on The O'Reilly Factor. So that's so therefore it was said in public and you're commenting on it. Yeah. You mean so therefore it's it's been said. Well I know I know but it you know you have to get

it. It's been so it's not whether or not it's sort of the set are under set and I have I have on occasion last launch brought some broadsides against the Brits and Ireland and their position on Ireland. I agree with you I'm sorry about that I didn't hear that one. But I mean I'm not holding you responsible for it. It's you know it's it's just that you know people say people say they put a jack rocker John Rocker but they were it's you know it's people one thing everybody seems to do is they say well don't do you type. But then what do they do they do the same thing. Of course we do another we eventually all become the thing we hate the most. Yeah I think there's a huge amount of hypocrisy that if you look at I mean you can talk to people in Hollywood who would go absolutely insane about John Rocker and yet they will turn around and make films

about that later. Certainly a lot of Arab-Americans feel stereotypes laminate in a close way. John I want to thank you very much. Oh Say Can You See The Economist's 11 the March 2000. John Michael White's book is he's an author of a future perfect crime books to be published in three weeks. Thank you for talking to us today. Thank you very much for having me. Great enjoyed it. Thank you all the best. Maliki McCourty are finally taking a break and coming back with the illustrious. Max Frankel Hall wrote the book the times of my life my life with the timeless I don't know if I'm going to be able to talk to him because I am speechless with admiration. WNYC is supported by Dr. Mark pictures presenting the last September directed by celebrated theatre and opera impresario Deborah Warner starring Academy Award winner Maggie Smith with Michael Gambon own Jane Burke and Fiona Shaw and Keeley Hawes based on Elizabeth

Cohen's novel The last September. Now playing in theaters Hello I'm Leonard low paid J.R. McNeil has written a startling history of the massive changes we've brought to our physical world in the 20th century. We're still unable to fathom their implications. Professor McNeil starts off the next New York company then the irreverent Paul Krassner discusses his impolite interviewing style and will celebrate Easter with a Good Friday presentation. Company. Supported by Carnegie Hall which presents pianist Brundle in his only New York recital on Monday will 24th at 7:30. Mr. Brown performs work by Haydn. A New York recital at Carnegie Hall on April 24th. For tickets to 1 800 supported by neurology channel developed and monitored by board certified neurologists featuring neurology for more questions about such conditions as strokes multiple

sclerosis headaches and other pain syndromes are answered online at neurology channel dot com. We have the first chapter of Max Franco's book illuminating the second half of the 20th century in the chapter 1 reading room at the W NYC website at W W W W NYC dot org. I New York and Company is next. No it isn't is it now. I've got to go to the guest of course I if I was get my signals all mixed up here. It's very appropriate. One of the called their last caller actually had said that nobody had mentioned the contribution of the Jewish immigrants to

American life and I and I for a bore is that we're far from saying that our next guest want to have. Full filled all of those that that question that answer would have made them answer the question. And so Max Frankel has written the times of my life and my life with the times and money. It's a bestseller and has been just so well received in so many ways and I loved one comment by the Associated Press because it really close to home. Remarkably well written and earnest deserves to be widely read. It has much in common with Frank McCourt's Angela's Ashes which also describes the immigrant experience of overcoming hardship and becoming an American. Mr. Frankel. Good morning. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so glad to talk to you and

I to you. Well you're a grander man and I am entranced with your book. The times of my life and my life are the times so much of it resonated but I was as a child your vivid descriptions of the expulsion from Germany and that that that that journey across those fields into Poland and been bounced back and forth I just was live that Theo and lying down in the mud and then being led by the Polish soldiers back right back to where you came from. Right most extraordinary story. You were what then eight. I was 18. Pretty harrowing experience but quite vivid in my mind obviously. We were trudging along about 200 of us not knowing not realizing that we were only a small segment of the 15000 allegedly Polish Jews. I say alleged

because my parents were born in Austria Hungary but that then became Poland and they were brought as very little children to Germany and that they never thought of themselves as Polish but suddenly in a great rehearsal for what later happened to Hitler just collected 15000 of us and dumped us on the border and said to Poland here take back your Jews I don't want them to give you they give you polish passports or exit visas. They gave us nothing. Just dump this on the border and then elaborate negotiations began because the pole started. They didn't want us and so they started picking up so called the Germans living in Poland and saying well if we're going to start bothering in human beings why don't you take back your Germans and this started an involved negotiation and after about three and a half four days we were reluctantly and grudgingly admitted to Poland where we finally got something called a stateless passport

issued by Poland. That's burned out much later that that stateless documents saved my life. I was the white one. It was exactly it was white in color so as to not to be confused with a genuine Polish document. When mother finally in desperation we were back in Germany ran to a stop o headquarters in Berlin to beg for a exit visa. This is after the war had started. The stupid guard at the door not so stupid he just looked at how she was. He said You Swiss The Swiss were the only ones who had a White Pass right. And that's how she got admission and somehow charmed or played upon the sympathies of the head of the Gestapo in one shot was of course a very elegant woman. She dressed extremely well and so they just assumed that that she was Swiss and that she had a lot of money or influence. Well see how that kind of spunk ship is generally a quite ordinary

housewife who suddenly have to rise to the occasion and knew that with the Germans especially with the Nazi top officials. The only way to get anywhere was not to sow fear. Yes she was trembling inside but she had engaged in remarkable repartee with these people of course spoke flawless Truman and dressed herself as best she could and in that fashion impressed them having previously impressed the Americans who were equally reluctant. Why she's sort of. Cost of the consul general of that as he was walking across the back office they haven't a right cheek. She had a few weeks in Germany permission to visit back after we had been expelled and found herself in Berlin and desperately begging for the American visa and she was being turned down and she just sat there and finally accost the consul general and said Can I have a few minutes and again he looked her over and she

seemed a very impressive young lady and so he granted her an interview and when he asked her how we subsisted in Poland she said well you know I have rich relatives in America were sending us money like why. But that finally tipped the scales and so he he gave us of these when in fact the American Embassy in those days was under strict orders from Washington to be as reluctant and as difficult as possible about admitting many immigrants especially Jewish immigrants. This was a different America than the one we know now. It was an America just you know still suffering from depression and still hostile to immigrants still reluctant to take us in. How much was it a very blatant anti-Semitism that you came up against when you when you arrived in America. No. It was just coming out of it you know this is 1940 the war had

begun. The ending had their sentiments welling up. They were still there in New Jersey parading sympathies with the Nazis but no New York was a place. It was the dream country you know where the people spoke Yiddish on the streets. Yeah we were unimaginable to us they were even Jewish policeman. This was that this was such a center of Jewish and Yiddish culture that we could be absorbed and not to feel the anti-Semitism that was still quite clear in a fancy country clubs and even leading universities and so on. Well that you you know I was fascinated by the concept of higher power a god if you will when you talked about when you push back at them. So fascinating you are where you stand where you sit you sit where you stand was that what you said.

And the idea that but then the leg of a chair. There are all these millions of little beings who jump to your commands when you push back. And that what we have enough quake. That's what God is doing is pushing it. You know my childhood fantasy of how the world was organized or how the universe yes organized really quite remarkably now that I'm learning as an adult what the universe is really like. It quite conforms to these silly childish images I had. I had this notion that that you know when I move the chair away from a table that there was a whole universe inside the leg of that chair of little beings whose lives I was disrupting and they wouldn't know the cause of the discomfort because here I was this mighty God over them. And then I figured well that but they in turn must have a little chairs and they must have little beings in the like of their chairs and so on

down. Enfin is a cosmic universe is infinite. Yes the same up that when some when man when my life was being disrupted in some startling and otherwise unexplainable way it must be some god who's moving his chair around and causing the earthquakes and upsets in my life. And it's not only chairs of course it was this it was an instant hit. Liter of ever larger and larger beings an ever larger and larger universe. And I was merely one little train in this in this infinite collection of universes. So I imagine didn't I. I'm not so sure I was wrong. So I think that's that actually resonated with me for some reason because I had the same sort of an idea when I was Maureen Dowd your colleague there right at the Times wrote

a piece last year sometime of that she was saying about my brother Frank how in Angela's Ashes what how how could he remember all those details like having solar day and stuff like that and it's. I think I think you will agree with me and I hope you do that when you are in the midst of being expelled in the midst of being poverty and you have no other diversions and distractions that you remember every detail of because there's nothing to distract you from what is happening to you. That's absolutely right sir. Obviously searing experiences in childhood are never forgotten and they are they're also real and they're retold and that reinforces the memory. Although I must say that you know much of my

story involved adults and issues that I was not aware of and some 30 years ago when they were still of good mind I lab Ripley interviewed and cross-examined my own parents. But you have to know what questions to ask. Yes absolutely. We just need which is the important thing. So then you came to America and your mother was speaking German Your father was. Where was your father. My father had fled to eastern Poland rights and course the Russians took there so I tried he was in Siberia wasn't it. That's right and he was on on some pretext he was tried and convicted so that they could have some more slave labor in their yaps in Siberia. And what then. I am in the midst of the book now. I haven't come to where he's fate. He barely survived the slave labor camps. He was he was close to death and then in a Jewish doctor in the prison hospital himself a prisoner took him into the hospital and nursed him

back to health and then employed him in the hospital as a kind of an orderly and help chief helper and so he survived the first two years after which by another twist of fate the Germans invaded Russia. And that made Poland suddenly an ally of the Russians and so the Polish government in exile in London pleaded for the release of all these Poles who had been deported to Siberia by the Russians. And so he spent the rest of the war knocking about in Siberia and various odd jobs he wound up in charge of 500 German prisoners out. But we barely heard from him we heard from twice over those seven years of separation. But incredibly he was repatriated again as a pole which he was not. In 1946 sent back to Poland and from there managed to get himself out to Sweden and to the United States he joined us here in an October group in 1946. Year and a half after the war.

My guest is Max Frankel the times of my life and my life for the times. We're going to take a little break here and we'll be back and I think some questions comments from listeners to 670 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. Support for WNYC comes from Segal gala global branding and E services firm servicing established and emerging companies in the Internet economy on the web. Ideas that transform dot com today at WNYC dot org. Sarah Vowell dissects America and herself on public arts plus. The first chapter of Matt's Frankel's memoir The Times of my life and my life. I became a quote New York company is next. And here's a preview of today's show. Well Maliki will be starting up New York in company today with J.R. McNeil a professor of history at

Georgetown University and he has written a startling history of the massive changes that we have brought to our physical world in the last hundred years. We're still unable to fathom their implications. And then the Reverend Paul Krassner will discuss his impolite interviewing style and other things and we'll also celebrate Easter with a Good Friday presentation of classic gospel holiday recordings all coming up after the news at noon here on Yami 20 W NYC. Falling apart. I'm talking to and with Max Frankel the times of my life and my life with the times extraordinary well written book and I find that you have. I know it's serious stuff many times. You don't take yourself too seriously and there's a certain whimsicality that appeals to me.

I'm glad you noticed. You know it's very hard when you're plucked out sort of as a singular individual and by absolutely dumb luck through no skill or talent of your own find yourself saved and so fortunate in this country and made one of the few privileged people in the world. It's very hard not to be reminded as I always was by my mother that this is none of my desert. It just happened that way. So you better not take yourself too seriously. Well she didn't quite give yourself credit for her own originality in creativity and her own initiative in getting visas and been under her own steadfastness sinkin accosting people knowing that your lives are sensing that your lives what I write actually seem to have that that vision of that we've got to make this move and someone else. Like when you were thrown back when all the clothing and everything

else which they wouldn't let you bring in without paying ten times that. The customs duty is and she brought you all back to the customs What made you put on all the clothes. That's fantastic. So obviously she had great guts great common sense and and but her feet were so solidly on the ground that the chief herself always regarded the fate of the mentally in control of our lives and well she could ever say was be ready be ready to take advantage of whatever opportunities arise but beyond that there's nothing much you can do. Yeah well I have this thing myself which is married for 35 years and I was I said to my wife having come from where I came from this we never knew who was going to live and who was going to die in the sense of that poverty does that to you but I always said to my wife don't plan or don't plan anything because if you want to give God a good laugh

tell him your future plan. And so I say Prepare don't plan. And that's a different matter altogether. And I said that that resonated with me what your mother you know said just get prepared because you never know. She said you know when you get up in the morning don't do your work tonight because you may not you may be too late in the morning. Back. Yeah. So now the other thing I think. Was it a present that he read whenever he went anywhere that he could count maybe 20 seconds before somebody mentioned the New York Times. Absolutely right as I do you find that yourself. Oh yes it's quite a trademark. It resonates around the world and it has a reputation that we sometimes are in and that is a generally speaking critical reputation. No I'm saying that people say something to you. Is it always saying what the New York Times does not do.

That's true that's true in government circles. Yeah absolutely right. They're annoyed by our intrusiveness in private circles you know the biggest complaint is that something wrong with the delivery. Time for that the ink smears off on their hands. Those are the private complaints actually in the universe in which we circulate our readers form an extraordinary community. They're they're addicts. We're an addictive narcotic product and they need us in the morning. They need their morning coffee. And when you pick up the telephone any time anyway and saying this is Max Frankel all of the time you're apt to get whoever you want to come to the phone. Yes. Although I must confess it's a little less true in the television age than it was before we had all these big shots on camera. And also the politicians are discovering that by getting themselves on the tube they could

bypass us and for instance people like Mayor Giuliani in New York are not answering the telephone and in fact ordering their people around the city not to answer the intrusive questions and prefer to be their own press agents. When I've written an intro told that a book called The Sayings of journalism of Giuliani which has just been published you might have its own speak. Yes all these own more. How well you talked about the Jewish community that sort of settled in Washington Heights. Well he said the board office workers are going up the farce and the Jewish folks went up there like lava from downtown. The Irish went up Amsterdam Avenue and the Jews went up Broadway. Give my God still one of. So did you know you mentioned Henry Kissinger right. Did you know him then.

I did not know him although it turns out that my mother knew his mother. I see and but Kissinger was 20 blocks north which was which was a huge distance. And he was among the more elite they had left. Still with all their baggage they were left in a more or less orderly way. You know you know if they are in support themselves. His mother became a caterer. My mother became a for furniture sewing to support themselves. But no we did not know each other then. He's older than you. Yes. He's about 10 years older than I am and but obviously something resonated when we were both thrown together in a in a somewhat antagonistic role of a reporter and the White House official. But we had a relationship that that that that that bridge that that antagonism because of our own fates. And you want I think we have an age I was born at 31 I was

born in 30. So you know just around that time. Right. What do you know that I know that you have met everybody in the whole world of Kennedy and and eyes and heart and all of that and have everybody else in the world. You must get tired of getting it. But what did you feel about that what fascinates me about America. Did you have any fear that there was going to be it was Sargent's of what you had fled when the men to Joseph McCarthy was rising. Oh absolutely. I've lived through that period and found in my own high school writings for the high school newspaper rather severe denunciations of all the communist hunters although I was not of the left wing Henry Wallace progressive movement I was a sort of a Truman Democrat in my own

political outlook. But I I found the whole atmosphere quite severe. And in fact you know I've gone through life believing that in the sense if you will of the idea of German us that. That it isn't there but it was not the drug it was. There was nothing peculiar or special about Germans that made them so susceptible to mass hysteria as followers of Hitler and the boys said I hate to see any people tested by the circumstances in which they found themselves impoverished defeated in World War one who merely aided and suddenly subjected to the severe fear and I've used the McCarthy experience in this country as an example of how with much less at stake I mean people were being sent into concentration camps that were

they weren't being hounded to death but some were threatened with the loss of livelihood or jobs if they stood up for their fellow citizens who were being attacked as politically incorrect. And a lot of people caved Yeah. And it taught me to believe that I'd hate to see us tested. And after all we have seen in Rwanda and in the Balkans average reader that people are capable and so are you I think the human race is universally vulnerable to hysteria and to fear and fear. I think that's the one that looks at me the economic fear losing the jobs are so many folks and Hollywood just so they can kill themselves. That's right the country rather than a very strange and yet there are people who still venerate him. And that's strange marriage with him and

Cohn and David shiners are I never. I've always had this thing of I've never trusted people who won't tell you the first name. David Scheiner you know F. J Edgar Hoover H.R. Haldeman and H. Howard whatever label all of these guys they all have those first initials and I figure there are some anagram there. That will tell us all about it. Wonderful insight thank you. I would take this with Call Jean from Rockland country. Yes this is John my friend Carol in the early 60s. You were the Times correspondent in the Caribbean and specifically I wanted to talk about Haiti. I was perhaps eight or ten years old but my father used to read you.

I'm sorry John but you have about a minute. I was told that you didn't fully cover the atrocities perpetrated by the divide and the heights of the dictatorship there. How how did you see that. Absolutely right I was the Caribbean correspondent but my main job was in the van not to try to find out. In the early kept the first Castro year whether or not he was a communist and what was happening between him and the United States but as the Caribbean correspondent I paid I think two visits to Haiti and operated under the Soviet restraints and was dependent only on a very wonderful local Stringer that we had. I'm sorry I missed Michael. But we have to wrap this up. I want to thank you very much and it's a great I'm delighted to talk to you. I thank you. Writes all the best times of my life and my life with the times finishing up now on the line is produced by many on Carson. This system produces no McGovern Allen account

is the at the control board with the help from Santa's elves. Join us Monday when we talk to me if you'd like us. And Leonard Lopez is next in New York and Company. Here is the eloquent with the mind for everything a preview of today's show. Thank you Maliki Good afternoon everybody and we start off New York and Company today with J.R. McNeil of Georgetown University has written a startling history of the massive changes we have brought to our physical world in the 20th century and.