NewsNight Minnesota; 4125; NewsNight Minnesota Episode from 04/07/1997; SD-Base

But for those who are tempted to take the law into their own hands I say Do not underestimate our resolve. The governor declared a disaster area and the appeals for calm on Friday arrived at the special one hour NEWSNIGHT Minnesota. Tonight's broadcast of Newsnight was presented in part by neural roast bones contributing to the growth of the Twin Cities through support community service and by Cargill supporting Minnesota's tradition of community service. Good evening welcome to NEWSNIGHT. We have put together a special hour long program on the treaty rights and the flooding. What you just heard the governor speak about it. We're going to go right to Lou Harben For more on the governor's address and the other news of the day Lou. Thanks Ken a lot to go over today. The governor made an unprecedented speech this evening asking for three minutes of air time at the top of the commercial news broadcast. The address was scheduled to be an appeal for calm as Native Americans. The intellection size their newly reinforced treaty rights. But the governor also spoke to the other big story on everyone's mind the flooding. Here's Governor Carlson.

Good evening. Tonight I want to speak to you about a difficult and important issue the upcoming fishing season in the Bolax treaty area. I speak tonight because this issue touches on two core Minnesota values respect for our natural resources and respect for the law because the broad Minnesota community shares these values. I am joined by the Democrat and Republican leadership of the legislature and I'm asking all Minnesotans to commit your respect for our environment and for the law. In the weeks ahead we Minnesotans care passionately about our abundant natural resources because they are vital to our economy and to our quality of life. We also care passionately about upholding the law because it protects public safety and is the cornerstone of our democracy. I know that many Minnesotans have strong convictions about the upcoming treaty harvest whatever your views. However I understand that the decision to allow it is not up to the state. It was

made by a federal judge in a federal court ruling on a federal treaty that dates back to 1837. The state tried to reverse this decision by offering a negotiated settlement several years ago. That effort failed. Subsequently we turned to our efforts to the courts and the state will continue to appeal to assure fairness. But for now all of us are obligated to live by the court's decision. Toward that end I have developed an action plan with the following steps. One we have organized a special interagency team to uphold the law and to provide maximum protection to our resources during this harvest too. I have asked the legislature to approve a six and a half million dollar expenditure to support this effort. Three I have requested the federal government's help. Discussions are now underway with the Minnesota congressional delegation and federal agencies to help defray the cost of law enforcement for this

administration is also meeting with the Chippewa bands in order to reduce the number of lakes fished and to decrease the number of pounds of fish taken and to limit the impact on fishing for non band members. Based on these discussions there will be no additional restrictions on for Minnesota lakes. I am pleased to also report that there are no plans for commercial fishing on malakas lake this year and we will work to make that condition permanent. But for those who are tempted to take the law into their own hands I say Do not underestimate our resolve. In recent weeks we have seen Minnesotans come together in extraordinary ways with neighbors helping neighbors in responding to the spring floods. This has developed a sense of community and in that same spirit of community I urge all Minnesotans to settle our differences the way we always have calmly and peacefully.

I thank you so much. Goodnight and that was the governor about an hour ago now we put together 45 minutes of information on the treaty rights issues which we'll have in just a bit. Now let's move on to the flooding in Stillwater. Hundreds of people were sandbagging hoping to keep the St. Croix from spilling into the downtown area. The river there isn't supposed to crest until next week but already the lift bridge has been closed down once and here in St. Paul the mighty Mississippi is looking even mightier Fort road that runs along the river is closed lock and dam number one as well as numbers two and three have been shut down as well. Too much water to make them right now. But of course the worst flooding is happening out west in greater Minnesota. About three to four thousand people have been displaced living in temporary shelters. Power has been out of tens of thousands of customers homes. Some of that due to the storm this weekend that dumped a foot of snow or more in many places. A writer for The Fargo Forum call it Hell falling

on high water. We are going to get some on site reporting first from Granite Falls where the Minnesota River runs through the center of town. NEWSNIGHT reporter Bob Barden is there. Bob can you hear me. Yes I can tell me just what kind of activity have you been seeing there today. Well today we had a great outpouring of volunteers into the Granite Falls area actually at one point this morning at about 10:00 o'clock. We had bus load after bus load coming in from places like the Minnewaska area of McCrae's schools bulled public schools all places to the east and northeast of this area. Because they can't get to us from the west in the south we have roads that are closed that are flooded over. But just a tremendous outpouring of volunteers and they came in and did a really good job and actually we sent a lot of our volunteers at home for right now and now we're going to pick up where we left off tomorrow morning. Now let me ask you this with the cold temperatures what has that done to morale out there. Actually I tell you the truth. It's kind of spurred people on. They've they've taken it as a personal challenge between them Mother Nature in the river out here and they

don't like to lose. All right Bob thank you very much. Next we go upstream from Granite Falls to Montevideo where the Minnesota River is ten feet above flood stage. Jim Curtiz mayor of Montevideo is on the line. Mayor Curtis can you hear me. Good evening. Tell me what kind of activity do you have going on there today. Well is this morning we sent the volunteers home also this morning because we had it under control we could put a secondary dike in and that's what we sandbagged this morning. Right now we have the National Guard with the Corps of Engineers working the dike 24 hours a day. Now why is that why the 24 hour wait because we could have a breach of the water point through this levee at any time. And when it does we we want to know and try to get out. We've got national guardsmen on call ready to get into action right away. Kind of a spot for us to get into action right away. All right. Any trouble with gawkers or most people who show up actually want to help out. Actually people have been pretty good we've had a lot of a lot of people driving around looking but

we basically have shut off Highway 212 East and West in an area and they say they got patrolmen mater in the areas where we're working. All right. Mayor Curtis thank you very much for calling in and filling us in. Now we go up further north and west to Breckenridge and Wahpeton area on the Red River of the north where there was some good news. The river has crested and is down almost two feet from yesterday. Dan Rood Jr. mayor of Washington North Dakota is on the line mayor Wahpeton. You're ready to send everybody home. We're working at things and hopefully the battle is nearly one. OK so what's going on right now what do you have planned for tomorrow. Well for tomorrow we have last night at 9:00 o'clock we received two semi loads of diesel pumps from St. Paul that were secured through North Dakota emergency management system and we're using that to evacuate the remaining water we've had over three inches of

torrential downpour rain Saturday and that was building up on the inside of the levees and causing problems in the community and we have to evacuate that water and that's what they've been working on today and will continue tomorrow. OK. Let me ask you this. We hear a lot about people near the water what about say in the country or farmland anyone else being affected. People in the county there's been a tremendous amount of people that have been adversely affected that affected action after section of sheet water isolating farms and they figure about 50 percent of the roadways in Richland County have received some kind of damage. All right. And you expect any major problems in the upcoming days. For right now I know we're we're feeling better about the situation and our sister community Breckenridge Minnesota taking it on the chin. I think worse than us in here trying to regroup and get their sanitary services and water back to their cities.

All right certainly one time you're happy to be in Dakota. Well so far so good. All right. Mayor Rudin thank you all for joining us for this telephone fill in just what's going on with the floods in parts of Minnesota. Now we're going to move on to world news here on NEWSNIGHT tonight. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was in Rochester over the weekend meeting with King Hussein of Jordan. King Hussein is undergoing prostate treatment at the Mayo Clinic. Now the meeting was the first stop by Netanyahu to try and get Mideast peace talks back on track. But he was tightlipped on the success of his meeting with Hussein. The Israelis or. These things we have to spend today Netanyahu is in Washington meeting with President Clinton and for the final headline tonight if the estimates are correct more than 20 million Japanese will travel abroad by the year 2000 up from 16 million now traveling overseas.

And if anybody's planning ahead it is certainly Northwest Airlines today they announced new service from the Twin Cities to Osaka. It'll start out three times a week and go on a daily schedule by June. Now Northwest the fourth largest airline in the world. Only a week ago announced it was doubling its flights to Tokyo to two flights a day from the Twin Cities. Northwest officials say some of the improvements here at our airport is making this all possible. And that's the news from around the state and the world onto Treaty Rights. Thanks Lou. We are devoting the remainder of this special edition of NEWSNIGHT to a discussion of Native American treaty rights and the plans of the Bolax Band of Ojibwe to begin harvesting fish from a lax lake and other lakes in the region. Representatives of the Moloch's band declined to participate in tonight's live discussions saying they're choosing to address the issues in different venues other point man on treaty harvest Don Whitall will be appearing on NEWSNIGHT later this week. To answer your questions and not going to tell you more about that a bit later on. But we're going to start off tonight with a look at treaty law and how it works as

state lawmakers prepare to spend up to six and a half million dollars to keep the peace around the lax as the fishing season begins. It's worth remembering the state had a chance to settle the issue outside of court a few years ago. NEWS NOTES Mike Mulcahy has a look at how we got where we are now. All right. We don't have scenes like this back in 1993 were the first indication most Minnesotans had a dispute was going on with fishing rights and lax banded Jim way was preparing to go to court to push for its right under an 1837 treaty with the band and the DNR had negotiated an agreement to head off the court case. All the agreement needed was the legislature's approval but there was strong opposition. After

a long debate. The legislature rejected the settlement. Four years later some lawmakers say the state made a big mistake by not settling with the ban. What they did agreed to do is to basically do a small corner of the lake to do subsistence harvest in traditional manner to to satisfy their own community needs as well as their cultural interest and use of most historic means and to not do any real threat to the resource. Now they have opportunity to go in and get up to half the resource. But some settlement Opponents say the agreement was wrong back then and it was always better to let the courts resolve the dispute. It's allowed people to cool down. And I think that we will have is a situation where there will not be anywhere near as much violence or demonstrations or anger as there would have been four years ago. The proposed settlement would have limited bans spearing and netting to about 4 percent of Lake Miralax and it would have banned commercial fishing by the Indians. The state would have given

the band seventy five hundred acres of land and 10 million dollars. Our legal costs are approaching that right now. Just the legal costs. You know we've got our e.g. costs or agency costs. And then of course we may well have to pay the band's costs that we're liable. We may well be liable for that for the legal costs of the ban. This enforcement cost is all on top of that. And and we clearly I feel very clear that the costs will be higher because of what has happened. Three different appeals have been filed in the federal court ruling. One by the state one by local landholders and one by the counties in the ceded territories. The issue is in the appeals go beyond the number of pounds of fish that can be taken from the lake to more basic questions about whether the treaty of 1837 is even still in force. But some experts say based on other court rulings around the country the appeals have very little chance of success. George Spangler is a fish and wildlife professor not a lawyer but he was an expert witness in the Wisconsin treaty case.

I think it's unlikely that. The appeals will be successful from the perspective of the non-Indian users. There seems to me to be ample. Precedent. In the Wisconsin case and in some of the cases in the Pacific Northwest to suggest that the appellate court will uphold that was on the other side says the 1837 treaty was later invalidated by a number of other legal and political moves. The colonies and the landowners and the state have laid out a case that the higher court can look at and and I think the possibility is is in our favor that it will be overturned. The appeal is likely to take at least a year. I'm Mike Mulcahy. NEWSNIGHT Minnesota. Joining us for more on the federal case and on treaty law in general are Assistant Attorney General Scott Strand. He is one of the lead attorneys for the state on this issue. Steve Fraley represents six Miralax area landowners who joined the state in its lawsuit against the band. And Jim Robinson Jr. is the Duluth attorney who teaches courses in Native American law at you

Andy. Gentlemen thank you very much. Steve I want to start with you. Why not the 93 deal. Why were your clients not happy with it. Well there were quite a few problems with that. They made the decision quite simple. First of all it only addressed the claims of the black band so you would have had six Wisconsin bands and the fans like band with the same claims that you would have to resolve. Second it had much more involved and then just giving some limited hunting and fishing abilities to the black band members. For example it recognized a disputed reservation of the black band which still claims that 61000 acres of ational exists and that would have taken a lot of the southern end of the lake. That's right and that raises a lot of other jurisdictional issues beyond fishing and hunting rights. And now the state does not recognize that reservation. Let's talk about the 1837 treaty. Most people more or less agree what it did. The disagreement comes with whether it was negated or not. Let's go through the arguments. Zachary Taylor president in 1850 issued an executive order that said oops sorry no more. Is that the argument of the state.

That's one of the arguments of the state whatever privileges were reserved to the 1837 treaty were extinguished by later events. The first event in 90 in 1850 was the president issuing an order expressly revoking the rights. It's not the right. ROBINSON What about that. Well any time that you're going to revoke a treaty you have to look at the nature of the Right that is being revoked under the treaty. And both of Wisconsin cases and also the Minnesota case has recognized that these are referred to as what we say use of fructify rights. And there's a case United States versus Winton's which define to use a factory right in this context and what it said is that when you enter a treaty with the tribe it's not the tribe giving up these rights but rather it's giving up certain rights to the federal government. And it's reserving all of the specific rights that have not been given up. Get a couple of comments. First of all this executive order did not terminate a treaty of privilege the treaty privilege was always intended to be temporary. That's what the treaty said that the privileged last during the pleasure of the president. And at trial I got the band's linguist to admit that the

Chippewa language had all the concepts necessary to say that the treaty of privilege would last as long as the president wanted it. So it was supposed to be terminated at some point in time when settlement became more of an immediate need in the area which it was not in 1837 was until the mid 1850 settlement came out. Let's talk about the 1855 treaty which came afterwards. What are the arguments about that. That it abrogate the fishing and hunting rights the rights that were reserved in 1837 were limited to a particular ceded territory and so in 1855 when the original blacks reservation was created there was a clause in the treaty in the new treaty which provided that the band would give up any right title interest or claim they had to the rest of the territory of Minnesota. That included the rest of the ceded territory and we think that the hunting and fishing rights in the ceded territory it went with it. That's the flipside of that. Well this was also considered as a treaty of goodwill because the Bolax band had been very very supportive of the state of Minnesota during the uprising. And as a result I'm referring now to the sixty

five treaty as far as placement but previous to that it was was considered as a treaty of goodwill and from the Indian perspective again the testimony is recognized at court was that this was not enough to take away that use of factory right. In other words from the point of view of the tribes and those that had negotiated they did not understand that they were actually giving up the rights that were given in the 18 37. OK we could go on and on. We got about a minute and a half to go. This was done in Wisconsin. The bands ultimately prevailed. Why would the state of Minnesota go through this. Why would private landowners go through this if an appeals court has already said yes they got it right in Wisconsin. First of all various defenses weren't even raised in Wisconsin you mentioned the Indian claims Commission Act that was not even raised that Wisconsin litigation went on appeal after summary judgment without a trial where in this case we had a trial where we've had a chance to develop law so it's not a common topic. Far different. You've had more recent Supreme Court cases that have come out since 1982 and 1983 the chances for appeal are much stronger now I think 30 seconds

to go. Different Court different treaties different case law from the U.S. Supreme Court all of that provides a basis for concluding that there's a significant chance that the state will prevail on appeal. Professor Robinson are you worried about a different Supreme Court ruling a different way. I think that the court will probably go along with a with a lower court in this case particularly with the claims commission that specifically addressed the claims that had not been paid or had been avoiding payment through fraud. Here's a case where the tribes are saying that these are rights that were reserve nothing to do with claims that were being paid or not paid in the past. All right gentlemen thank you very much for joining us. And next up we're going to talk about managing the lakes and the fish. Fish get stunted stunted fly fishing success is as good as it is I'll just fish elsewhere. And the thing is the. Tax rule is going to get. If there are no biological items What is the argument about. And I think sometimes people have to maybe sit back and examine why they're angry at

and why. And sometimes it's not a resource issue. It is a racial issue. So is it about natural resources or about racism the economy around LAX is based almost exclusively on tourism and in Minnesota that needs fishing. Fishing is as Minnesotan as blizzards on the Mall of America. And maybe that's why this issue has touched a nerve in many residents who believe that the treaty harvest will mean no fish left over for non band anglers. But is that really the case. Kathy went to relax to find out for generations of Minnesotans. Bolax has always been synonymous with walleye. You wanted to catch the official state fish. You went to Miralax the state's premier walleye lake. It's a distinction that remains to this day but there are changes in store for the big lake. The black band and seven other tribes that I ring looted in 1837 treaties have the right to take fish from the blacks and a number of other northern Minnesota Lakes. But Miralax is the focal point. The Bolax band of Ojibwe has announced plans to

take 40000 pounds of fish from the lake this season. Well forty thousand pounds of walleye is about what we would catch in a good three or four day period. In late May and early June. Here that's what we can take out a lake and have taken out in that sort of time period. In general that's a very small harvest and the overall harvest on the last leg. As a result of a number of things. It amounts to this year about one eighth. Of the harvest that predicted sports Spangler's will harvest. But it's got some non Indian sports anglers angry is the way Indians will take the fish by Spears similar to bees and you'll humans something spearing takes too many fish that are spawning and netting takes too many period because of the limited number of band members that are

harvesting this resource. You can be have more efficient methods of harvesting versus where the state where you have. Two million people fishing you can't have a liberalized set of regulations because they'll over harvest everything because there's just too many under the band's rules a member who wants to net would have to get a permit each day and the netting would be overseen by a tribal biologist and a conservation officer whittle expects about 70 band members to nets and spear this spring. And the reason you're doing that is you know basically to use as food and you have to use that correctly and wisely. It's not not a game. It's not something you're out there toying with you're actually taking a life of something that is alive and you have to have a really deep respect for that. And I think amongst tribal members that respect is very deep. And

it's it's not a game it's not something you play with. These are gifts. So in order to accommodate the tribal harvest and sports anglers while also keeping the fish population at healthy levels the state DNR has imposed new restrictions for non Indians. You know if people want to want the league to kind of go as it has traditionally been managed where we let the lake regulate itself or do we want some more some sort of more active management. And. You know the court process has moved us into having to manage the league actively for this exploitation rate. I think the numbers indicate that the exploitation of blacks has been above the sustainable level. And as a result of that there needs to be adjustments management adjustments. And. And. In order to do that there needs to be a change in regulation. I believe we have an opportunity now to make those changes in the regulations.

I know some people feel that it's really an inappropriate opportunity because it kind of says well a treaty harvest. Is generating this and actually tree Harvest is a very small portion of the harvest. And really doesn't impact. That overall scheme very much. Well I think there's a couple of misconceptions. One is that. The bands have been given these rights by the federal court and now they can just go and fish and do whatever they want. You know and there is a very strict ban code and regulations on any sort of activity that they wanted to have to fish. Another one is is the fact that once a gnat or two is dropped in the lake every fish in the lake is going to swim into that and that then you know the the walleye populations are done for and given that they are a very selective fishing gear and there are you know things in the band code on mesh restrictions and season restrictions which should protect the fish populations.

For more on the harvest we are joined by DNR commissioner rod Sandho and John Schneider he is president of the Minnesota sport fishing Congress. Gentlemen thanks. John I want to start with you. What are you most worried about. Well short term or long term short term the the use of the band with the fish is going to be minimal in the next year isn't. I think the big worry within the community the big worry is. As it's phased in how many fish are going to goal is commercial fishing going to come on board. How much is the resource going to be used for that. I think that's the big worry and the big fear within the could get. Commissioner what are you most worried about. Oh my biggest concern would be commercial fishing on the lake. I think without that we have a really good chance to sustain a very good sport fishery through the future. OK let's talk a little bit about netting. I keep on hearing a very emotional response from angler's netting. Like what does it matter how you catch them. I mean if it's £40000 it's forty thousand pounds.

Yeah. And to some extent that's true. I don't think the real educated angler would argue that to some extent what they're worried about is in the past netting has always been commercial. And if you look at the big lakes Lake of the woods Red Lake Rainy River some of those commercial Nets have over harvested in a large degree and hurt the quality of the fish. So it's true that I mean it's my tradition it's history makes some interesting things to come. Yeah I think that's the big worry. Commissioner a lot of education over the past years about catch and release catch and release. And I've heard that there are some fears that you know why should I put this 22 inch trophy fish back in if that guy over there with the net is going to catch it. Well I think that's a very short sighted view and I hope that most of our anglers will not succumb to such an idea because it really is necessary for them to cooperate with us and protect the quality of sport angling that's protecting larger fish populations. And that's got to be hard. You're in a boat and you see you know that's about 100 yards away.

To some extent that issue has already come up when the 24 percent harvest quota was introduced the fisheries department came to the angler and said here's a couple of possibilities of special regulations to put on Bolax to maintain that be 15 inches and below you have to put it back or have a slot limit 16 to 20. And the big draw back on the slot limit was the exact thing you just said well if I put that back the guilt that you're going to get it and I think that's what defeated the slot limit long term I think the commissioner and myself would agree that the slot limit is a much healthier way to maintain a quality. Well I think that's exactly right. I don't think the slot that was defeated John I think it was yes. And the fisheries biologists advised us that we could go with this current structure of a 15 inch minimum without any harm to the population. But I think slightly mature in the future here. And so you're talking about protecting a certain size fish between 16 inches and 20 inches. That's right. Which is the most popular fish to catch. And again the big idea is to get some of the fish through the 20 inch into that the more that trophy size the better all the size because again the the sport Angler the one that's out there spending a lot of dollars really looking at as kind of a hobby in a tradition. All the family values come in.

They really look at not just catching fish but having the chance to catch a few bigger fish as well. I've got about a half a minute to go are you confident that this monitoring system with the band is going to work. That they'll be able to keep track of the fish as being gone. Yes I am and I think that I would ask the public. Bear with us. We're going to prove that. I think in the next year a lot of skepticism about it but we have good notice from our part of the band. We have good enforcement and I think we have the ability to work together with our officers and the ban officers to enforce the regulations. We are almost out of time very quickly actually getting the word from the DNR and how this is going to work. We're comfortable actually now fisheries in Yangon are have done a really good job communicating. And there's a lot more to go. I mean there's a lot of folks out there that have a lot of tense feelings about it. A lot of education needs go on. Gentlemen thanks. As I mentioned earlier on Thursday we're going to have Don Waissel commissioner of natural resources with the max band of attrib way on news. You can call our viewer comment line between now and then with questions that you have missed. The number is 6 1 2 2 2 9

14:30. We're going to use your questions for our interview with Mr. Wade once again 6 1 2 2 2 9 14:30. Also leave any other comments that you have about tonight's program. This. Is. Those are the facts about are some of them about the importance of tourism in east central Minnesota. But what about the feelings what's going on up there. We went up to the Bolax area to find out. It's hard for people to forget what happened in Wisconsin a few years ago. But. It's. Not. Quite yet.

For the past week on the lake people have been getting ready for taking up the pilings from last year's docks and preparing for a new fishing season. It's quite a nice quiet peaceful. We heard these words over and over again around the lake as people prepare for the fishing opener. No one we talked to could forget what happened us Kwanten about a decade ago. I guess the mood up here as far as violence is a concern this community as a whole doesn't want any part of it. They want to be able to deal with the situations that have arisen. And a peaceful convoy. You know. I think the mood up here is also that they're afraid of outside interests coming in and creating confrontations that he lie back runs an ice fishing resort in the winter and works for a marina in the summer. He's also president of a group of businessmen and anglers who are worried about the DNR as new

fishing regulations on Lake year. I think that prospect is probably a very. Probably the one of the biggest concerns of the whole thing. That prospect is commercial fishing. If the Native American bands decide to start commercial fisheries on Miralax lie back is afraid it will eventually drive sportsmen from the lake and cost him his livelihood. My. Grandparents homesteaded here in the 19:00. I'm living on the same land they homesteaded. So we're on our third generation. I have every intention of wanting to continue that tradition as far as my family although I you know a majority of these people up here I see the vast majority of people up here live from paycheck to paycheck. I guess. The best way to sum it up is if that league dried up or if the fish weren't in the way. This is not a non farming community. It's an industrial community. The community would die. Bill Thompson is not only Marathe walk on a small town on the southern end of the lake but he's one of six property owners challenging the ajeeb way bans in federal court. He wants any

fight to stay in court and off the lake. It's hard to explain the concern that this community has got over over the conflict that might occur there. They're scared up here. They don't want problems up here. But Thompson says his biggest worry is that the Indians fishing and hunting rights will hurt the area's economy in the long term. If you knew that the lake would not be overfished if you knew that the deer and the bear. The wildlife resource was not going to be harmed. If you knew that would you be fighting this. It's something I can't know because past has taught me that I don't know who to trust on this. Red Lake is a prime example. Agreements were made. People understood. Red Lake is ruining a say 20 years before they're going to repopulate the lake the walleyes and runs like.

When we caught up with Ron Nelson. His worry wasn't treaty rights. It was getting a pickup off of soft eyes Nelson runs a resort on the west shore of the lake and he says exercising treaty rights won't hurt his business. I'm really not worried at all because mainly if you look at the history of the bad guys anyway. It never happened that. Do you understand why there is. There's a fear of the unknown. Do you understand why some some of your fellow resort owners are scared what might happen. Yeah I can I guess I can understand some of their thinking but to me it's. It's not how many fish are taken out of the lake. It's more of what color is your skin. And. That's the way I see it. And it's been that way ever since you started. The lines are drawn in so a state they label the six landowners as racist. We live in harmony with the band up there. We've got band

members we've got band members for friends we do business with them we have them in our schools. We employ them. Those are human beings. Just like us. They were all born in this country. It doesn't make any difference whether you are or what color you are. You have to learn to live together. Racism is an issue here. And. According to Thompson and other people who we talked to spearing really isn't that big of an issue but using nets is as far as the religious and ceremonial part of it. This is something that the Native Americans did die in their path. I don't see any problem on that point. Of course. I say not everybody doesn't agree with me. But the netting. With the netting as far as that's concerned I. Am in a situation where. To me it would make me sick to see it really. An historical display stands along the main road and walk on the Ellen route with the first charter boat on Miralax launched in 1932. It's a reminder that the lake has

provided a living for people here for generations. But even older than the Ellen Ruth is the question that has plagued Native Americans and whites since that treaty was signed in 1837. A lot of talk about what's fair. What's fair. Fair. As far as tussocks the van. Both sides. I think fair is to. Figure out how to work together. How to. How to live together as far as the lake is concerned fair is learning how to share the lake together. That was last week near Miralax right now in the studio we have Steve Marcus and he is director of Minnesota tourism. Tom Davis is commissioner of Public Safety for the state. Now you remember Steve Fraley from an earlier discussion the attorney for the landowners and Professor Bob Paulose is chairman of the American Indian Studies Department at the University of Minnesota at Duluth. Professor

I'm going to start with you. When the 1837 treaty was signed Native Americans were not American citizens. They are. Now do you understand when a white angler's says this is not fair. Do you understand that reaction. Well I think it's probably in the sense of an angler in our state the white angler it is a a a normal reaction but you have to remember that. Most of the people were not citizens at one point or another in the history of our country. White is as well as Indians everybody was and I was a citizen. Blacks were not a citizen. Women did not have the right to vote until the early 19:00 in the United States. So I think that's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. When we talk about fairness we have to talk about the relationship of people to each other. That's where fairness doctrines evolve out of. You don't just suddenly come up and

say this is fair. All right. It's something that evolves fairness evolves. And I think that it's very important to keep that in line as this whole matter continues because otherwise people are going to assume that fairness is something very explicit and very hard and fast and that's not the way it works. Steve Farrelly you know that the U.S. government lied to Native American tribes many times in the past broke treaties and so forth. Do you understand the emotional response of band members to say this is there. I think I do. If we look at what the band elders want and if you listen to them they tell me and they've put in testimony that what they want is to be able to do this for the ceremonial and religious purposes for the funerals. The child naming ceremonies for Drumm society events and powwows what you don't read about is that we've never objected to that. That is not what the lawsuit is about velocity is about when they are our efforts to harvest beyond that. And that's what people say once you take care of

any type of traditional need or cultural need to harvest in a certain way or be on a certain season fairness and then comes down to all citizens being treated like citizenship is very much an issue because the whole purpose of the treaty was to ensure that band members would not be discriminated against because they weren't citizens and there was good reason to believe that in the 1850s the law came down in Minnesota that said band members couldn't even go off the reservation. That was a violation of the treaty privilege. OK let's move on. I want to talk about safety commissioner six and a half million dollars to help keep the peace up there if necessary. Are you getting intelligence reports that there may be a small band of instigators on one side and the other is going to cause problems. Right. That was the basis of the governor's initiative to get a plan into place to be able to respond to this in a very proactive upfront sort of way. Can the the money the six and a half million dollars also includes a component for education and public relations if you will a forum such as this to get the information out. But aside from that

there is information that is being received by the law enforcement community which has created a concern on our part and we've shared this with legislative leadership I commend the governor for the endorsement he gave us and in following through to put something into place to protect the people all people. I represent law enforcement. We do not write the laws. Our job is to enforce the laws fairly consistently and that's the overall objective here. Consistent fear enforcement Steve Marcus in your head of tourism efforts for the state. You're the commissioner of Public Safety say we have received intelligence reports that there are some people who would like to make some trouble perhaps. That's a nightmare for you. Why would I want to go to the lax with my family this year maybe next year. Well that's what we're hoping we can avoid truly since 1990 we've seen significant growth throughout the state and the tourism industry from 4.9 billion a year to currently about 8.7 billion a year. One of the fastest growing regions within the state is the area that's affected by the

1837 treaty area we have seen 80 percent increases in lodging sales during that time people staying in overnight accommodations. Bed and Breakfast resorts campgrounds motels etc. So even the perception that there's going to be problems is something that we're concerned about not only for the tourism economy in the immediate area but certainly from a statewide basis on the image it portrays throughout the country. Well are you hearing about cancellations booking cancellations. We're hearing some. At this point I think there's more of a wait and see attitude and that's that's clearly what we hope. The thing that we want to impress on everybody is we really believe that all visitors are still going to be able to enjoy the the experience that they always have there that fishery is still a world class fishery there are few places anywhere on the globe that you can don't have that kind of experience and along with all the other recreational amenities and activities that the area offers it's a great place to visit. We've got about two minutes to go commercial fishing. People keep talking about the possibility and if you don't speak for

the band itself. No I certainly don't and don't pretend to. But I think that one of the things that goes along with this is what the attorney told me one time about tort law. We talk about the parade of horribles. And that's what I've been hearing throughout the evening is that people are saying this is an awful thing it is going to happen. And if you look at the history the 17 years since Voyt in Wisconsin none of those things have happened. And I think that it's really important to understand that because you know nobody is going to go up to him relax. If white people are going to be down there throwing rocks and yelling epithets at the boat landings and I think the governor implications are should be should be well taken by all citizens of Minnesota. Well to the extent you're talking about interference with travel fishing I certainly agree with you that that's not going to happen here. In fact the land owners in the groups we work with like perm were saying

three weeks ago and telling sportsmen not to go to Landing's not to protest not to throw rocks. So I agree that's not a reason to avoid like Moloch's. However I can tell you that it's not my words but the words of our expert witnesses is that unfortunately this is going to hurt tourist owners tourists business up there we have affidavits from a variety of visitors who do feel this is going to impact them because even a 15 percent drop in revenue could be their whole season's profit. We're almost out of time. And just just to emphasize something here the images out there that negative information has been out. I agree with what these gentlemen have said and I think the media has an obligation here. I appreciate personally and professionally this form. But why is it in almost every newscast about this we've got to look at those terrible film clips from Wisconsin. I think that creates a very very negative image of helmeted officers going after people and that's not what we want here. Again we want from a good public policy perspective fair consistent enforcement allowing angler's the people who want to become involved in the sport the tourism industry everybody to profit

from this. Gentlemen thank you very much. Next up we're going to talk about the lessons from Wisconsin. That's racism. I have a lot of students in my classes and some I know very very very very very strong people. But it's still more on the resource. Rather than. Who's doing what. I believe they should retain the rights for cultural purposes it's it's it's totally wrong to take culture away from away from a race but to give a race special privileges because of their race as long as special privileges to to maintain their culture to maintain their own culture. And one benefit has going into this whole process is hindsight. We only have to look to see what happened under similar circumstances. Are the protests that the Northwoods boat landings in 1989 in 1990 may still be the image that first comes to mind when you think of spearfishing. But that was many years ago Paddy Lowe of our sister station WHCA in Madison recently traveled back up north to see what has changed in the years since those protests

the like the flambeaux carry sharp spears and a sharpened sense of the past into each spearing season with black feminists all have their fears for watching parts of everything. And that's something we learned. During the late 1980s and early 90s boat landings like this one it sound like erupted into violence sports fishermen resort owners and others were angry then and some still are that the Chippewas spear walleyed during the spawning season. I mean you don't have to be a rocket scientist to look at what happens when you deplete the breeding stock of a resource. The voices that shouted from the boat landings were angry ones. Since then new quieter voices have emerged and the focus has shifted from the differences that separate the two sides to the common goals that unite them. The more we communicate the more our interests are. Our future is intermingled with the ability to attract people to northern Wisconsin.

No question. Tourism brings home the bacon in the north woods. It's a major slice of Jeff Long's grocery business in Boulder Junction. It keeps the shops hopping Eisenach was Main Street and tribal leaders are gambling it will bring a bonanza of economic development to their reservations. I think that at this particular point there seems to be a basic unfairness to it and people will never really agree with that on a whole but I think that people have decided that for the most part that you have to put things behind you and you have to move on and you have to try to do accomplish some things. We probably know more about the periphery and other fishery recovery just because of the amount of surveys that have to be taken here to deal with the joint harbour's we're no longer standing there with our hand out. We're starting to shake those hands.

And I think that's what the boatman and was on for tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow for our kids. Just like the angler's want for their kids. Sometimes they'll bring a drum down to the boat landings and before you come in you'll ever get to see it all here you know when the stars are all all Northern wait maybe you'll come out and you can hear the drum. Nothing like it takes you back. It does take you back in I could the same thing happen here. Now what does the future hold in Minnesota. Frederick is from the loch to flambeaux tribe and with the group witness for nonviolence. Tom Olson is also an elected flambeaux tribe member. You might remember John Schneider. He's with the Minnesota sportfishing Congress and and gloom Mack is the state's tribal affairs manager a liaison between the state and the bands. I'm going to start with you Tom. So what did we learn from Wisconsin. You were there. Well I can only tell you this don't do what some of the Wisconsinites did and that is to chase

the people out of Wisconsin and to Minnesota. Sounds like they're chasing a lot of Minnesota back into Wisconsin. And I think that's something that I can bring to this forum here tonight to identify don't do what some of the Wisconsinites do. Pat you are part of a group of witnesses to see what was going on at the landings and you've been contacted by them Lap-Band is that correct by locked Flamel tribal fish and by Imlach ban. We were we were extremely effect in Wisconsin. Also with training witness for nonviolence volunteers to go to the boat landings to document to tape record and to videotape the violent activities that were that the Indians were launching on the spear fishers at that time. And it was very effective because we used that that platform then to educate masses of people because one of the things that we discovered in the process was that the

majority of people who were in a state of fear hysteria were uneducated around the issue. And so we launched an educational campaign to inform as many people we could about the facts regarding the issue on safe harvest levels. OK. John Schneider what are you worried about. Other than one or two races are trouble makers getting a lot of media attention. I don't think I'm really all that worried. Ten years ago was a world away and the Minnesota outdoors community the hunting community is a much more coordinated educated group and I'm involved with a lot of different groups and stuff and there's nobody out there organizing the protesting like there was Wisconsin in Wisconsin. You know angling groups from Minnesota we're going over there so it was a very organized effort to protest and that efforts not here. It's a consensus within the groups to fight it through the court system and to do all this protesting this stuff that we're talking about. There's nobody out there in the organized groups

that are talking about it. And glutamate. What does the state have to do. I think the state's main function right now is to focus on prevention and education. And Governor Carlson has taken a big step tonight by reaching out to all Minnesotans and appealing to the sense of community that we all have and our common values so that we don't end up seeing the same scenes that we saw in Wisconsin. And I think the other thing we need to do is education and we've been having a series of public meetings and those will continue through next week so that people in the Territory have an opportunity to come and talk to DNR officials band officials other interested parties and get the information that they need so that they're making their decisions with solid information and not based on a lot of misinformation or hearsay. How much is racism at play here and how much is economics fear of losing a resort if you're losing a job or just for a vacation. Going up in smoke I think it's much more so the latter. I don't think racism has that much to do with. The economic fear up on the lake is a problem. I mean some of these folks have had their livelihoods in the

resorts and there there's fear there. Oh I would I would tend to disagree with that. I believe that that there is a direct link between some of these organizations in Minnesota and Wisconsin considering Howard Hanson was a guest speaker at a rally a couple of years ago and he is the president of the group in Wisconsin. That's right. And he was a guest speaker at the rally a couple of years ago and he's the president of the hunting and England Club here in Minnesota as a matter of fact the president in Minneapolis to say that racism is an issue I think is an oversight or it's a state of denial that the state of Minnesota is in a respect to the Minnesota nice philosophy regarding how they deal and cope with racism in this state. Be careful how we tie people into if they were a if they talked at a particular thing I talk at the legislature routinely and no one is going to blame me for that. Well let's not blow this out of proportion well and I think that's one of the reasons why you know I've been invited tonight to make sure that everybody wasn't painted with the same brush.

And that's how you know racism is painted. So if there's you know the white folks out there screaming timber nigger and red nigger and wagon burners you know you know you all are painted with the same brush because that's just the way it is when it comes to the screaming or the or the the things that the people are doing to any of people but I'm hoping that you know the six million dollars that the governor of this year state has put out for safety reasons can go back in the coffers for better things because we are nothing more than just another fishing group doctor. We are the most monitored fishing people in the whole world. One hundred percent we're monitored by the state. Why. Why. LITHWICK Great Lakes Fish Wildlife Commission. Why the tribes. We are we have rules 40 percent 40 40 was at 40000 pound a fish. Will do over a million almost on annual basis. They're fishermen. I think the biologist said well we are working under biological numbers and nothing more than that and we want to

take the fear away from what's happening on those waters. Many people are insignificant. I think another important point is that the governor made again tonight was Don't underestimate the state's resolve. If that kind of behavior takes place in Minnesota. Commissioner Davis was here that won't be tolerated in Minnesota we hope we never see the kind of footage that we keep seeing replayed and replayed. And I think one of the reasons one of the ways you help prevent that is telling people right up front if you do this we're going to haul you off to jail. And I think that's an important message because I think Howard's act that way and I think cowards are dissuaded from being like cowards when they know there's going to be a force there. Well you know I agree with everything everyone's saying you know. However I do believe that a great deal of that 6.5 million dollars that has been set aside and approved by the state legislature should be used for education and use to be able to relay the facts and not assumptions and projecting into the future. Let's see what happens this year. These fish are going to be

monitored by the State Department of Natural Resources by the Great Lakes and Fish and Wildlife Commission. They are going to be weighed side sext you know the anglers are unregulated. The tribes will be heavily regulated. And I'm afraid Pat has the last word tonight. Thank you all for coming. I appreciate it. And thank you for watching. We hope you learned as much as we did. Putting this all together and as we go we have a little more from other folks around Minnesota goodnight. First let's take the media and the congressman and legislation. I think they breed racism. I really feel that they'll pick an issue and really give it the attention and take things out of context to make it look like it's a issue where people are racists or whatever. It's a situation where we can all survive with you know if we don't

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