Assignment America; 112; Valerie Harper: TV's Rhoda

[beeping and music] Taxi! Hey, tax- ! I think Watergate had everybody really psychically fatigued. I think they were ready for a wedding even fake. Bring it on. I knew the show would be good, but I didn't know it would be responded to in this manner. I had no idea that Americans would respond so vicerally to what we're saying. [man speaking]: Valerie is our 25th woman of the year. We would like you to have, uh, this authentic hasting pudding pot in [Valerie]: Aw, [man speaking]: uh tribute for your accomplishments and, uh, we'd also like to give you this T-shirt from, uh

this year's show. A little plaque here, put up your dukes [Valerie]: Oh, that's great. Oh, it's beautiful. [people clapping] Well, I'm really honored and part of it is, um, it's big stuff. You know. [ people laughing] [music playing] [music playing] Hello, I'm Maya Angelo at Studio Center in Hollywood, California. Valerie Harper is a consummate actor and a brilliant comedienne.

For four years she played Rhoda Morganstern, Mary's sidekick on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," a role which brought her three Emmys as best supporting actress. She was so successful in realizing the character that Rhoda was launched on the show of her own. Or in television jargon, Rhoda became a spinoff. Television viewers have taken Rhoda to their hearts and on the night of her wedding a record 30 million people tuned in to watch the festivities. Recently, Valerie Harper and I met on the sound stage and we discussed Rhoda the role and Valerie Harper the woman. [Angelou]: Tell me how much of Rhoda is Valerie Harper? [Valerie]: A great deal, um I think actors work from themselves. You must as any artist I think. If that's you, you, you're just trying to, uh, how can I say say it, you must use

yourself. Those are your tools, your voice, your body, your experience. So you- characters come from you, uh, and when you do a series you really live with the character. It's not like going in in the evening Maya, to d-, or Wednesdays and Saturdays matinees to do a performance it's set. It's an ongoing thing like in the five years I've played Rhoda she's changed a great deal and I've changed, too. The writer, I lost weight so the writers wrote Rhoda losing weight and getting more confidence. And the writers know me and they're dear friends so they write now more to Valerie. So a lot of Rhoda's me and a lot more now that she's married because that was our biggest difference. That I wasn't Jewish, I wasn't married, and I wasn't from New York. [clip from Mary Tyler Moore Show] [Mary]: Snack. [Rhoda]: Yeah, right Mar- [Mary]: Snack [Rhoda]: I don't want a snack. Hey, Mar-, listen, uh, was that your idea to do that divorce club thing on tonight's news. [Mary]: Uh, no. [Rhoda]: Oh. Well you know, um, I was thinking about it and, uh [Mary]: Jog. [Rhoda]: Yeah [audience laughing] We ought to join - [Mary]: Join a

club for divorce people. [Rhoda]: Sure! Why not? [Mary]: Wha-? Why not? [Rhoda]:Yeah. [Mary]: Give me one good reason? [Rhoda]: Give you - [Mary]: One good reason. [Rhoda]: Yeah. [Mary]: Okay. Alright. [Mary]: But, Rhoda you should already be aware of this good reason. We're not divorced. [Rhoda]: A technicality. [Angelou]: When Rhoda was born, at in the -. [Valerie, speaking over Angelou]: Yes. In the pen- of Jim Brooks and Alan Burns, yes. [Angelou]: ah, she was charming, fetching, appealing, and a loser. Charming, but a loser. [Valerie]: Ah, huh. Now Rhoda has her own apartment, has a handsome husband, uh, has her feet on the ground. She's pretty. She's vivacious and she laughs at herself and she's no longer a loser. [Valerie]: I fight for that ingredient. Things can't get to easy. And I didn't want to turn into a Barbie doll and neither did the writers. So the shows, I have all the trappings but it's just the same human being in a

new situation. Like I told him, I still want to grapple with the weight problem because people do. Cinderella doesn't really happen. Metamorphosis happen. I think there is a gradual growth, an involvement in human beings, but it's not, "Oh I got a husband and now it's all great." [Angelou, slightly speaking over Valerie]: It's not finished, now I have no more problems ... right? [Valerie]: And it's interesting, because all this year we've gotten tons of mail from women and, uh, saying, "Oh don't get married." First that was the first thing. An outcry, don't get married. Rhoda will change and now they've seen Rhoda hasn't really changed. She's still sweating out Sara Lee cake, and having troubles, and Joe and she and money and this and that. Um, she's a victorious loser, bec- you know [Angelou]: I see. [Valerie]: It's just the way I see her because she does laugh at herself, and that's the redeeming quality. I think kids love, also, um. Let me finish my thought. Kids love Rhoda because she says the unsayable. She will just blurt out without thinking something she's feeling and that's an appealing quality I think. And she has

courage and lots of, uh, chutzpah. And that's, that's fun, I think for people to see. We try to keep it that way. We got another, there was somebody mention something in an article that Rhoda was going to get pregnant and the letters were incredible. No, baby. Don't domesticate [Angelou]: Really? [Valerie]: her. Don't make her into Donna Reed. Please don't have he- d-, you know. Don't do Brady Bunch. And we're not. [Angelou]: Oh, great. [Valerie]: She's not getting pregnant. In fact she's getting a job. She's opening her own business. A lot of women called have said what is this domestic; it's turning into a soap opera. People feel so personally about it. [Angelou]: Yes exactly. [Valerie] It's amazing. I knew the show would be good because of the writers I'm dealing with, the wonderful actors, the care. But, I didn't know would be responded to in this manner. I had no idea that Americans, all over, not just New York City would respond so viscerally to what we're saying. And, um, I don't know. The comment, they're trying to keep, the writers are trying to keep the

comedy idiom and within it right a real marriage, a man and a woman. Ah, I could have lived with Joe. We talked about that. But Rhoda couldn't. [Angelou]: Yes. [Valerie]: Rhoda was too middle class and the people have watched her for four years want a husband. So you couldn't rob them. And even, uh, women from, that work on Ms. Magazine and stuff say we won't get married but, we're, it's nice to know it's still around. [Valerie and Maya laughing] The white dress was still funny. [Maya]: Right. [Valerie]: It's that love of tradition. [Maya]: Right. [Valerie]: So Rhoda's someone who had to get married, eh, just because of who she was. [Maya]: Every week, the Rhoda show opens and there's a capsule version of Rhoda's life. Could you give me a tiny a capsule of your life? Valerie Harper's life? [Valerie]: Oh, gee. [Maya]: Ah. [Valerie]: That's very interesting. I don't know if I can do it as quickly. I always wanted to be a ballerina with all my heart and fiber, and I took between 10 and 12 classes a week toward that end. When I got to be 18 I went into

show biz. I met actors and singers and saw that whole marvelous area of theater and in effect changed my major. Started acting. Met Richard Shaw, who I married 10 years ago. And he got me into improvisational theater. And five years ago I was just someone, an actress who wanted to, uh, work steady, and I just stepped into the most incredible thing, which was a character, a character of Rhoda, which developed into four years with the Mary Tyler Moore Show and then my own show. [Maya]: Now [Maya]: Now, and you [Valerie]: I don't know if that's, it's not near as humorous as what they wrote for Rhoda to say but [Maya]: But, that's, that's good. [Valerie]: I capsulized as much as I could. [Maya]: I know that you and your husband, who I think is a comedy genius. I know that you used to write, eh, both of you used to write your own material or he would write material for both of you. [Valerie]: Well, he is the brains of the operation. What we used to do was improvise with a tape.

And that is a wonderful way to write if you're actors. Ah, you're a writer so I, I can't begin to understand how the guys I work with for the last five years they say, ok we've got to get a new scene. This isn't happening. I don't know what they do. I have a feeling they go in and burn juju beads. Or do some- [Maya]: You don't burn the beads. [Valerie]: Well [Maya]: You pray to them. [Valerie, laughing]: You pray to them. Thank you. What I don't know. That's what I mean. Eye of newt, head of toad. Whatever it is. [Maya]: Right. [Valerie]: And this writing comes out. I don't understand. When I was a chorus dancer, Julie Stein would say gee that number doesn't work, a musical number. He'd go into the hotel in Philadelphia in the morning, he would have of song. I don't know where that comes from. I respect it. I love it. I don't know it. I could improvise off a theme with Dick, and then he would kind of piece it together. [Maya]: I was wondering if Dick and you ensemble or just you or just Dick wouldn't consider writing some of the, um, Mary Tyler, Tyler Moore shows and some of the Rhoda shows? [Valerie]: Eee, I, I-

I don't feel that. I don't know why. I, I don't feel- I don't feel in any way that- I don't- I have no desire to direct. At this moment maybe, later in my life I will. Um, but Dick, uh, was going to write one. In fact he did for Mary Tyler Moore, but then he never got to the second draft and things came up. Um, and he's got, he's busy with his own theater. He has a theater group that he's getting together. Plus he does guest shots on television and he loves to act. That's his first love. Dick, whom you love, my husband has been on three of the shows this year as a best friend of my husband. [clip from a show] [Rhoda]: OK ?girlie? OK what are we going to do? [man]: Uh, make believe we like each other. [Rhoda]: No, no. Not until we really do. [man]: It could take years. [Rhoda]: Yeah, but it's better than being phony with each other. [man]: You know I like you for that. [Rhoda]: You mean it? [man]: No. [people laughing] Rhoda, pass the salt. [Rhoda]: Get it yourself. [Maya]: You mention, ah, I mean that we know you do that Bronx

accent so well. [Valerie]: Right. Right. [Maya]: How is your ear? I mean- [Valerie]: I think it's better than most. [laugh] [Maya]: Obviously. [Valerie]: Now, I really enjoy it. As a kid I used to do impressions of well the star- Marilyn Monroe was very big when I was a young teenager and she's big now again, but I mean when she came in Niagara, I guess I was about 11. Her early movies. And I always just used to do that. So I do hear speech, and I like it, and I'm very musical. Has to do with music I think. Hearing someone's voice and getting their rhythm. [Maya]: Valerie, I would give a pretty, if I could see you Valerie Harper tr-, being Marilyn Monroe. [Valerie]: Oh. [Maya]: How did it go? I mean how did you do? Tell me. [Valerie]: [laugh] [Valerie]: Well you see the person in your mind. [Maya]: Right. [Valerie]: That's how I do it. [Maya]: Yes. [Valerie]: As far as Monroe is concerned, you just, she had that soft thing, and then you just see her and she did a thing. She smiled and would go. I can't, I can't do it now. [Maya]: That is lovely. [Valerie]: I feel kind of foolish,

Maya. The way I do it is see the person and hear them. Now, Monroe is someone that I thought was really terrific. She was like the blonde of all time, which I always wanted to be. [Maya laughing] [Maya]: But, you know on the way over here to meet you, I was singing. I was imitating the Ink Spots, because when I was about that [Valerie]: Do [Maya]: at that age- [Valerie]: you do that stuff, too? Ok. [Maya]: I wanted to be a great singer, so I used to imitate the Ink Spots with great diamonds flittering. [Valerie laughing] [Valerie]: How wonderful. I'd give anything to see Maya Angelou do either the top of, the "if I didn't care" [Maya, singing]: If I didn't care [Maya singing a few notes] [Valerie and Maya laughing] [Valerie]: Ooo, terrific. I think we all want to be other people [Maya]: Of course. Just any? [inaudible] [Valerie]: That's why I think people are probably fascinated with people that do impressions. David Frye and those people. [Maya]: You've been Rhoda for five years now. This is the fifth year. [Valerie]: Right. [Maya]: And it looks from all the weather

vanes out there as if you're going to be Rhoda for another five years. [Valerie]: Well it's possible. [Maya]: Yes. All right, now given that, ah, situation comedy is a quite controlled circumstance. The, the director, the writers, the set designers, etc., have to do with that kind of control. Now will you be flexible enough - I'm asking you to do the impossible, of course - project yourself. Will you be flexible enough after say five years as Rhoda, to go back into improvisational theater and be anybody or be a chicken? [Valerie and Maya laughing] [Valerie]: Oh, you saw Henny Penny? Or heard about it? I hope so, Maya. I hope so. Ah, as a matter of fact the first year I was on as Rhoda, which was I guess '70. '70. Um, I did Story Theatre that hiatus. I did it for five months on Broadway and came right back to the show again. Story Theatre was an improvisational theater

thing that Paul Sills had in which I played a chicken, and maidens, and other things, mythical creatures. [laugh] I've worked in other areas every hiatus period, because you have five, when you say done Rhoda for a year it's only five months actually, six months. So I'm making sure that I'm doing other things. Last year I did Freebie and the Bean. I played a Chicano wife of a cop or Alan Arkin's wife. [Freebie and the Bean movie clip] [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: Yesterday morning, you went to the market. [Consuelo Delgado]: That's right. [Consuelo Delgado]: And this run right here was on the left leg. Two hours. You were gone two hours, [Consuelo Delgado]: Yeah. [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: and when you came back with a bottle of cream [Conseulo Delgado]: It was very crowded at the store. [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: Yeah. Two hours for a bottle of cream. [Conseulo Delgado]: It was crowded I tell you. [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: I hear ya. This run was no longer on the left leg, but it somehow magically moved over to the right leg. Now, what happen? You fell down and your legs got tangled up? [Consuelo Delgado]: No. No. I, uh, went to the ladies room, that's all, OK?

[Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: You don't take them all the way off in the ladies room. [Consuelo Delgado]: How do you know? [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: You don't take them off- [Consuelo Delgado]: How would you know that? Have you ever seen a lady do it in the ladies room? But that creep Freebie has you peeking in ladies room [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: You don't, you don't take them off [Consuelo Delgado]: at women going to the bathroom? [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: Nobody takes em [Consuelo Delgado]: That's disgusting. [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: Nobody takes em [Consuelo Delgado]: What is it you and Freebie are doing all the time anyway? [Det. Sgt. Dan "Bean" Delgado]: No. No. No. [Consuelo Delgado]: Now I know why you haven't touched me in 2 months. You're busy uh, with the weirdness in ladies room. [Maya]: Um, there's a complaint. And I think a valid one. That there are no good roles or there's a scarcity of good roles in movies for women. [Valerie]: Right. [Maya]: Now, when we look at television we see that you, uh, Mary Tyler Moore, Bea Arthur, ah, Esther Rolle, all star in ah, in a series which feature women. Do you think that television is where women will come first into their own? [Valerie]: I think they have in the area of comedy. There are not any women in dramatic shows in a serious idiom. Uh, I think maybe it will, it

will, um, improve. It's got to. But, again it reflects life and women are starting to get more into the mainstream. [Maya]: In life, we see that. [Valerie]: It's not happening yet and certainly not in movies. We're in the time of the boy couple. These two guys on a heist running through the streets shooting. I mean and I think the critics are starting to reflect that that's getting tiresome. [Maya]: That was "Freebie and the Bean," too, wasn't it? [Valerie]: It sure was. [Maya]: Well, now we see on television the um role of women has changed quite a great, I mean a great deal from the dizzy blonde and so and so- [Valerie]: Right. [Maya]: to, uh women who are dealing with social issues, you know. [Valerie]: Yes. [Maya]: And I'm particularly thinking of, uh uh, in Rhoda there were, there were, there was a program dealing with privacy [Valerie]: Yes. [Maya]: in a marriage. [Valerie]: Right. [Maya]: One dealing with jealousy [Valerie]: Yes. [Maya]: and so forth. In uh, in more than other programs one sees, uh, uh, even more strident issues that were

formerly taboo [Valerie]: Oh sure. Right. [Maya]: for television. [Valerie]: Yes, that's true. [Maya]: Does, do you think that that means that there has been a change in the society? And to what extent has the society changed say from 15 years ago? [Valerie]: Uh, I think the audience, the television audience is a greatly underestimated. I think they're ready for an awful lot more. They are more, they're well uh versed. They have, they see much more than the studio heads. Men sit around with gray suits in conference rooms saying, "Yeah, but the peanut munchers are all the great unwashed TV viewing audience. They won't get it." It's not true. I mean I've been on our stage when we've had, well this is in past years, a director would say gee that jokes a little ?head bull?. I get it. And Jim Brooks says, "I don't care if two people get it, will do it." And invariably our studio audience of 300 get it. [Maya]: Yes. [Valerie]: And are ahead of us. We as performing artists have to be very careful of getting, uh well, they won't

understand. I think the audience is, uh, ready for an awful lot. Maude and All in the Family were great ground breakers. Uh, um, breaking new into new areas. They do shows like they do the abortion show the vasectomy show. The whatever. [Maya]: The hysterectomy show. [Valerie]: The hyster- or the ah ah, homosexual friend show. Uh, the Mary Show and Rhoda, by the same people, are more dealing with coping day-to-day. [Maya]: Um, hum. [Valerie]: We don't do an issue show so much. Issues are touched on and are, uh, gone into as people do humanly in their lives. [Maya]: Well then- [Valerie]: So there's a different slant but it's, again, going into new areas and, and I ?fe-? Th-, Th- They can't give the people just love American style anymore. [Maya]: Now it is [Valerie]: Not to put that down. That light entertainment. They really- the comedy's got to be bright and interesting. [Maya]: Now, it's said among some people in the black community that "All in the Family" is a racist show

and does nothing but enhance and confirm [Valerie]: That's what worries me about that because the character of Archie Bunker and I know Carroll O'Connor is a man of great uh, [Maya]: Integrity. [Valerie]: integrity and of conscience. And he thought, aww he'll reflect Archie and now he said I walk in the streets and hardhats will say, "Archie, I agree with you. Keep it up," and he wants to die. I mean he goes oh no. That's not what I intended. I thought I'd illuminate him as the giant fool of the year, of the century. You reflect that guy, you do him and then you have people out there going, "yeah, yeah you're right." So it's very, it's tough. They're in a line of, there's a satire there that's, uh [Maya]: I don't kow how you do it. That has very little humor. [Valerie]: I don't know how you do it [Maya]: humor in it really. [Valerie]: Yeah and I- Oh, and, uh yet wonderful things are done on that show. I remember Cleavon Little did a marvelous, uh, and you hear the audience responding to lines that are very cutting and very true from the black standpoint. [Maya]: I was thinking that Rhoda speaks, just the

popularity of Rhoda, speaks seriously about something in this country. You know that this country that the society is ready for and not only ready for, but needs a Rhoda. As, somebody who has courage and laughs at themselves a bit. I- I would suggest that that's a great deal of the appeal. Your own Valerie Harper. [Valerie]: I think Rhoda is very possible. A person can look at a Rhoda and say I could be that. I do have a weight thing. I don't always say the right thing. I have trouble with dates and now- or I fight with my husband, or- There's great power, there's a great, um, area of where they can [Maya and Valerie]: Identify. [Valerie]: Thank you. Yes identify with her. Um, it's, uh- I had no idea that it would be this kind of thing. I think Watergate had everybody really psychically fatigued. I think they were ready for a wedding even fake bring it on. I mean, Princess Anne did it for Britain.

Let's, you know, let's have [Maya]: It ?inaudible?. [Valerie]: enough already. Remember how it used to be and, uh, this is sort of the Cinderella thing but with a lot of reality because the girl has a Bronx accent and she walked down the hall past garbage and it was too perfect in the wedding shot. And they keep that ingredient that, nitty gritty kind dailiness in the Rhoda Show. [sound] [music playing] I feel a immense responsibility when you know all those people are watching, you're in so many homes and they're kids watching, children. I mean I am

loath to drink coffee almost because it's you know of caffeine and stuff, I say well why don't we do orange juice? Why do we always do coffee? Uh, uh it's a good activity and you, you look for something each week. We never smoke. Now Mary, until a month ago, it was a dear friend. [Maya]: Yes. Yes. [Valerie]: Mary Tyler Moore is a darling. [Maya]: She Mary great actress. [Valerie]: She, Mary, um, smoked- chain smoked and has never had a cigarette on any of her shows because it's too, it's in too many homes she says, "I don't want to condone to help anyone be hooked as I am." You know. So there's all those responsibilities and there's another one to women. I- I love Ms magazine. My consciousness was raised. Actually, those are all such big terms. I was wake, I woke up. I mean I remember reading Germaine Greer's book and like th- when I, as I closed it I was [Maya]: Shaking? [Valerie]: quivering. Yes. And, uh things that I knew back here but I didn't I wasn't in contact with him. So I really try and yet as an actor you must reflect what's going on. You can't have Rhoda and Joe

with no problems about that totally equal and he does all the cooking or whatever foolish, I mean the switch isn't it either. [Maya]: No. [Valerie]: So you have the responsibility to do what's true and yet try to give hope to, uh, uh, women that we are going to get to the promised land. [Maya]: Well you know there are actors who,uh, go about who take stands on social issues. [Valerie]: Yes. [Maya]: Um, Mr. Newman. [Valerie]: Yes. [Maya]: Newman. Miss Jane Fonda. [Valerie]: Sure. [Maya]: Miss Shirley MacLaine, a number, a number of actors [Valerie]: Yeah a lot of people worked for McGovern and- [Maya]: And in the black community, uh, people who worked directly Mr. Harry Belafonte, Mr. Sammy Davis Jr. and so uh, who worked directly for the Martin Luther King, uh [Valerie]: Right. [Maya]: for Southern Christian Leadership Conference. I would like to know what you think uh, if a, if an actor reaches a place where he has a podium or she has a podium [Valerie]: Yes. [Maya]: and what he has to say

might qualitatively change some of the negatives in the American society, should, uh, does an actor, is an actor obliged by his-her conscience to then step out to make a statement? What do you think? [Valerie]: I think the obligation is to yourself and if you feel it. I haven't been involved deeply in in civil rights and, um, my uh the citizens for clean air. I- I think people should do what they want. Uh, it can be- The only thing is, somebody like a John Wayne or that people really listen to. However, as I've said let's have confidence in the American public. There have been so many stars jumping up and saying things. Maybe we'll just get to be ordinary people which we are, who have political beliefs rather than it having the clout. I- I don't know if it has as much clout as it used to and I hope that in a way it doesn't. I'm very much an Indian and not a chief. If you know I mean. [Maya]: Yes [Valerie]: I can get out there. I can call I can get out the pickets or get out the vote or whatever [Maya]: Um, can you [Valerie]: I'm doing

[Maya]: Can you, can you print the posters? [Valerie]: That's stuff. [Maya]: Yes, I used to do that [Valerie]: Yeah, [Maya]: Exactly. [Valerie]: Yeah, I can do all that. Yes I'm very good. [Maya]: late at night. [Valerie]: Gimme what- I can sell tickets and now I can really sell tickets. I mean I could say, you must. I told my business manager, I'd made him do it. I got people at work. I announced at the beginning of reading of Rhoda I said, "Listen, it's important prison reform no more Atticas. These are $100 a seat. Uh, who would like to order? [Maya]: You got You've got my pen, pencil right here and I'll never forget. [Valerie]: And I did. I sold about 30 tickets. [Maya]: Fantastic. [Valerie]: I did, yes. [Maya]: Do you remember the first poem you ever learned? [Valerie]: First poem I ever learned must have been one of those little darling ditties. I'd have to think about it Maya. [Maya]: Ok. [Valerie]: But this one was, I was five years old at Mountain View uh, grammar school in, uh, New Jersey, South Orange, New Jersey and I was, we were all animals and I had a piece of cardboard on my head to- I was the dove that cooed him to sleep the little Christ child blah whatever it was, but I remember coming out, and uh standing there and saying it and I didn't get the rhyme. I did what I just did now, "I am the dove the cooed him to sleep," and I didn't get the rest of it

or something and my mother said, "It's ok. There'll be other chances." [Maya laughing] That's what she said to me. She said, "So what? It was one night. You'll- There'll be other times you can go on the stage." Maybe that's why I wound up here. I'm still trying to get the dove poem right.