A Closer Look; A Closer Look ; Peoples Temple (Stoen Interview)

An NT but themselves and I don't think you killed himself in 78. The closer you look at something like where you will. Good evening and welcome once again to a closer look. I'm delver Davis. Tonight read away your

reports on Mayor Dianne Feinstein's first appointment to fill a vacancy on the board of supervisors. And our guest is Attorney Tom Stone who became one of the most outspoken critics of the People's Temple after leaving the ranks and engaging in a lengthy child custody battle with Temple founder Jim Jones. And tonight is also a feedback night so if you have questions about the news or 14 about People's Temple then give us a call at 8 6 4 2000. We'll have a better chance of having your question answered if you get it in early. So try not to wait too long that number again is 8 6 4 2000. But two San Francisco supervisors who were involved in an automobile accident last night are reported to be in satisfactory condition this evening. Supervisor and Ella Hertz were riding in the back of an unmarked police car returning from a dinner break to city hall when their car was struck by another vehicle traveling at high speed and suffered several broken ribs and a punctured lung. However he has been removed from the

intensive care unit this afternoon. Supervisor Ellen Hutch is still in the intensive care unit where she is scheduled to undergo additional tests. The accident occurred at the corner of post in Venice where the driver of the car ran a red light. He was unhurt. San Francisco Mayor Dianne Feinstein today filled one of the three vacancy on the board of supervisors. She appointed on her to the District 8 seat formally held by Dan White. The ceremonies took place this morning at city hall and Rita Williams was there of course Mayor Feinstein's appointment of Don her Randi this morning came as no surprise. It's my pleasure today to carry out an act which began a week ago Monday I believe very strongly that it is an act of justice. This man would have been on the board except for the tragedy and because I've had an opportunity to meet with him to talk with him. I'm convinced that he will be an asset to the Board of

Supervisors. I'm convinced that every member of that will be able to work with him well and that he will be able to work well with the mayor's office. And with that introduction mayor Feinstein signed the desk when he was killed. Feinstein had planned to appoint her Ransey earlier this week but that action was put off because of a possible conflict of interest with her. But today the 42 year old supervisor announced he's resigned his $20000 a year job as a real estate loan officer at the Department of Housing and Urban Development. But the new appointee that should not cause a financial hardship on himself his Filipino wife who is a nurse and their four children intend to reactivate my real estate brokerage license and if necessary. My wife owns properties in the Philippines which can be sold and which can comfortably provide for us for the next three years. It didn't take long for the new supervisor to the company down here and it is refusing to label himself politically describe myself as a rehabilitated neighborhood.

Time is perceived as a liberal does her randy think he can adequately represent districts in a predominately blue collar conservative Democratic area. I think most of the media had left and they are back into the room and I think City Hall tragedies last week and an oversight by the mayor officially became the supervisor of District 8 as representing an ethnically mixed area district includes visitation for Amazon in the south central portion of the city. The founder and past president of the coalition a neighborhood organization in visitation rights

for the past 11 years as a community activist who Randi has some very definite ideas about. We have a number of the park issues that have been resolved because of Proposition 13. We have housing problems in the area especially if you're coming from the community in the next three or four months. It doesn't coincide with my impressions of it and I'm perfectly willing to change my impressions. These people is a native of Chicago but he's lived in San Francisco since 1956. I asked. I didn't think the time was right time. Well simply because. The crime issue was being very heavily. Brought out front people were spotting favorably to that in terms of an issue and I didn't think I

could write or participate in those terms. Merchants and residents think about the dozen or so people we talked with had pretty much the same thing in the new concern I guess you. Never heard of them until I read his name in the paper. Last month it was going to. Appoint a. Constituent for hearing the news. Their supervisor was getting a personal tour the supervisor's offices the mayor. And there were some grim reminders of the past and this was the office in which. He died. And so there's some question. For the first time in a long time. I'm afraid this is right here.

That's right through the tour today was as much a time for them they are to say overlook goodbyes as it was a time of initiation for the new supervisor supervisor Ransey told me today he as yet has not decided who to vote for as president of the Board of Supervisors. He also says he's not sure whether he would vote for an out of court settlement in the police discrimination suit. That is if one is presented to the board. Thank you Rita. Let me remind you that tonight is a feedback night if you have questions for attorney tombstone an outspoken critic of People's Temple and himself a former member give us a call it 8 6 4 2000. That's 8 6 4 2000. Will 17 more surviving members of People's Temple in Guyana arrived in New York last night as the plane unloaded temple members were whisked away by federal agents to an undisclosed location. FBI and Secret Service eight Secret Service agents conducted simultaneous interviews into the early morning

hours this evening those 17 temple members will arrive in San Francisco where federal and local questioning of Temple members will continue tomorrow. Now this intense interviewing of Temple members raise the issue of legal representation for those returning. Nancy Stockman has a report. The federal investigation of the People's Temple includes in its scope the assassination of Representative Ryan possible wire fraud gun smuggling and currency violations. Tomorrow morning the 17 Jonestown survivors will testify in San Francisco before the federal grand jury. Yesterday they were served subpoenas requesting their testimonies as many agency investigations into the People's Temple continue. The San Francisco District Attorney's Office is also interested in talking to those returning from Jonestown. Deputy District Attorney Robert Graham we don't have any plans to file any legal action against anybody at the moment. At this point we're conducting an investigation trying to determine what the facts are. After we've completed our investigation as much as we possibly can and then

we'll make a decision as to whether any legal action is possible. Should be taking the 17 returning members of the People's Temple include those who played on the temple basketball team at the time of the mass suicide the survivors were in Georgetown not Jonestown. Two of Jim Jones his adopted sons are also in the group. Attorney Charles Gary has filed a petition on behalf of Temple members requesting the dissolution of the People's Temple corporation under conflict of interest legal limitations Gary explains he may not be able to represent any of those survivors returning tonight. And I couldn't possibly represent all 17 so that matter I don't know that I can represent any of them under that kind of a standard. What I'm going to advise these persons who are returning is that they asked the court or asked the law enforcement body that's going to interview them.

The thanks should demand of them in turn to be appointed for him to represent them to advise them as to their right. Gary said he made arrangements with a New York attorney William Kunstler to provide legal counsel if requested. But Gary says the FBI never informed the survivors of the counsel's presence. Well our guest tonight is attorneys Tim Stone Mr. Stone is a former member of the People's Temple and was in fact part of it select inner circle. He was the temple's chief legal adviser and was responsible for the theoretical framework of Jim Jones's financial empire. Well during the period when he was a member of People's Temple he was also assistant district attorney for Mendocino County and later was part of San Francisco D.A. Joseph Frey distaff. Stone and his wife Grace eventually defected from the temple and engaged in a very lengthy custody battle against Jim Jones. Tim Stone today continues to be one of the most outspoken critics of the People's Temple. Welcome to a closer look. It's just. Thank you Bill. First question out of a sense we say you are an

outspoken critic and you talked about deaf people being in danger. Those who have objected to it. What are your feelings about your own life. Are you afraid. Do you believe in the hit squad theory I believe the hit squad theory is overplayed at this point I don't think it does anybody a great service to emphasize the hit squad concept because it's like if you call a kid a juvenile delinquent long enough he starts acting out of the way Quincy. I think that we can see that the church was capable of killing because Leo Ryan is dead as are some others including 900 people innocent people. But I think that the people that have come back to the United States are probably in a state of confusion at this point. They still are programmed by Jim Jones as one reporter once said to me Jim Jones lives in them and I think that's true. That's what I feel in danger. Personally do you feel that your life is threatened right now from Temple member sex Temple No more so than I have for the last 13 months. Do you feel that there's a possibility that you

will be harmed physically in some way. Well. I don't think so. I think that basically society will end up deprogramming most of these people and they'll become aware that their lives do not have to revolve around Jim Jones. The main problem that we have right now is the survivor syndrome a feeling that a guilt that probably all of the close followers of Jim Jones have because they did not go down with him. Speaking of guilt I think as the man who was really a very high up in the temple at one time and responsible for money some of the money and so on. How much responsibility do you feel guilty you feel for the deaths that took place. I know that several Temple people have said that your custody battle with Jim Jones one of things that forced him to Guyana and made him paranoid How much responsibility do you feel are you willing to shoulder for. Well I'm willing to assume a lot of responsibility. For helping make the church strong when I was a true believer. And all I can say is that one doesn't have to remain a fool forever. And once I became aware that Jim Jones was making not making people happy.

Which was the bottom line as far as I was concerned then I had the existential decision whether I was going to run and live in isolation or whether I was going to fight him. The point is that I love my little son. Far more than Jim Jones could have ever could ever know or he himself could ever do. And I did everything that I ethically could to try to get my son back I worked in the courts. We went. My wife and I worked in the California courts we got a California Supreme superior court order against Jim Jones personally addressed to him. We had every type of assistance from people united states to try to get that court order enforced and Diana Jones would not comply. We went to Guyana. We brought court proceedings there we waited we did everything ethically within the system we could. And even as I fought Jim Jones all this time there were a number of things that I did not use against Jim Jones that I could have. For example he was once arrested on a charge six forty seven f in San Francisco which has since come out. I didn't use that against him so when I was which is what was

lewd lascivious conduct I thought it was a set up at the time and I did not feel that it would be consistent with my own views on civil liberties to use that information against him and as I told Stephen Jones when we met at the Pegasus Hotel in Georgetown right as the shooting was going on. Unbeknownst to me I said Stephen I said if I were trying to fight your dad unfairly or if I were an agent for the CIA wouldn't it make sense that I would have used everything that I had against your dad and he had no comment but that's what I tried to let me ask you another question because it's really an important one since you were really right there at the top of the ladder were political or politicians compromised by Jim Jones was that part of the plan. Was it purposely done so far as I know I had no personal knowledge of any such compromising right now in terms of the district attorney's office just attorney's office said they investigated Jim Jones a year or so ago and found nothing illegal. As far as you know what was Jim Jones doing that was illegal.

Well put it this way. I think Jim Jones tried to play it pretty straight because he was a rational man and I used to tell him I said Jim don't make the mistake that the Panthers made. Never commit violence never commit fraud you can do whatever you want to do legitimately. And there were certain indications of paranoia that were that was growing in Jim along as I see it now. And I think basically he respected that advice and the reason that the DA's can't find anything and Jim Jones is because basically he did play it straight. So so you're saying he didn't do anything illegal is what I say anything there may be some things that he did illegal but nothing that I think was actionable. Your own questions as to whether when you were in the district attorney's office whether you had anything to do with squashing an investigation of Jim Jones did you an appointment to the district attorney's office. Don at the urging of Jim Jones No absolutely not I had nothing ever to do with any Peoples Temple matters in the in the San Francisco District Attorney's Office. When I was in the Mendocino County district attorney's office I was basically the County Council because it's an integrated office and I

was in charge of the civil division only. But getting back to San Francisco no the answer is No I never had anything to do any investigation of Jim Jones and the acid test is the fact that I resigned from my job in the San Francisco District Attorney's office in February 1977 months before the new West attack on Jim Jones. If I was Jim Jones spy in that office it would not make sense for me to write that are you saying that you were not you did not obtain that job because you were that's And high up in the People's Temple are you saying that the jobs that were secured within the housing authority wants Jim Jones became chairman. We're not done as political favors in return for the votes that he was able to turn out for candidates. You're saying that none of these things really happen. I can't speak for what happened in the housing authority because I was not privy to the quid pro quo exchange between Ms Skilling and Jim Jones OK but I can speak for myself. I've made a decision to leave the church in June of 1995 which was almost a year before I joined Joel Freydis. And yet I was certainly loyal to Jim Jones I thought that because I was so conspicuous in the community of Mendocino County that my act of

leaving the church would be interpreted as a repudiation of not only Jim Jones but the values which he had which he held. And so I determined that I would try to withdraw and as conspicuous a way as I could so I went to Joe Freydis site. And when he was inaugurated night I met him at his inauguration and then I made a formal application. And I told Jim Jones who was down in San Francisco at the at that time that I was going to come down to San Francisco and get a job in this DA's office if I could so I made my application. And just as it was would be formally processed by any district attorney I went to my attorney friends in the Mendocino County Bar and said Would you be kind enough to send a letter to Joe Freydis on my behalf. But it is a fact the temple did work very hard on behalf of greatness. Well I'm not sure that that's true. In fact I don't think that the temple frankly took any role in Joe Freydis election campaign. I think Jim Jones was the classic master of mythology and after the election would go to whoever won and say we were glad to help. And I think that's what happened with Joe Freydis because I personally was not aware of any acts

of outright support that he did which doesn't mean it didn't happen. But you have to understand this is hard for some people to believe that Jim Jones and I had an understanding. I was a symbol of respectability in the community and I accept responsibility for that. But the point is I didn't go to the meetings I went to two meetings in the whole year in 1976 because Jim Jones knew I had. I guess what he would call certain bourgeois notions of I didn't like the law I didn't like to do these things and it was he could use me successfully as a symbol of respectability in return for which I would try to achieve a good reputation on behalf of the office by doing a good job so I would spend 60 80 hours a week at my jobs both in Mendocino County and here in San Francisco. Well we have to break off this portion of the question and let me remind you once again that tonight is a feedback night. Tim Stone will be staying with us for feedback so if you have questions for him about the People's Temple give us a call at 8 6 4 2000. And we'll be back with feedback in just a minute.

Well our guest tonight is Tim Stone Temple stone was a member of People's Temple. He started a long custody battle with the Reverend Jim Jones that some say led to the eventual downfall of that whole operation in Guyana. We have questions now from viewers out there. You're questions for Tim Stone and this viewer would like to know Mr. Stone why did you become disillusioned and leave the town. Well it's hard to say. I went into the temple. Because I was searching for a utopian collectivistic the answer to

the ills that I perceive the society I was part of what you call the radical liberal. Lawyer syndrome. I recall one day I was picketing around the federal building here in San Francisco against that Chicago Seven conspiracy trial and saying to myself somehow protest isn't enough and some where somehow somebody must be building a community and I had previously met Jim Jones about two or three years prior to that. And I had gotten to know him as a friend so I went back up and checked the church up in the Fall seven and 69 decided that this small struggling group of people was was a group that I could give myself to. And so I did and I happened to have previously been a prosecutor for the Mendocino County DA's office and and they had an opening as head of their civil division so I took the job. I stayed with Jones because I believe that he really was effective in bringing about an egalitarian society I really believe that. What caused you to become this and I guess the fact that he he was around 975 he

seemed to worry less about loving the oppressed and more about hating those. Who. Hated the upright is no beatings taking it taking place you didn't stay in place or you didn't know about or know. About drugs that OK to do with drugs. I was not aware of drug use in the Temple it was against Temple policy I occasionally had seen Jim Jones take on what I consider to be pain killers. But the first time I ever saw a drug that was like a non painkiller type of drug was. In Guyana in. April of 77 when Carolyn Layton gave him what she called a purple pill. But what about the reported beatings. Ok children. So the thing is I was aware around 1075 the gent that the paddlings were going out I have to admit to that I that's true but you know I wasn't aware of the severity or intensity of these things and I sort of rationalized to myself this I said look if anything if anybody ever got hurt or that sort of thing I as an

attorney within the church would probably know I never got a doctor's report I never got a hospital report of that sort of thing that style cause you some concern. Well it should have and all I can say is. I really cared about Jim Jones as a person I suppose you could say I loved him as a person and I'm the type of person if I love somebody I am I am blind to their faults that's all like this is another fear. Like you know have you any idea how much money the temple is worth. Well. No I don't know but I projecting from what I think was Jim Jones is admitted financial worth in 1975 which I feel was around 10 million. I would assume that anywhere up to twenty two million dollars or so could be within the bill. How much did you personally take care putting in foreign banks. Well I put I opened an account for nine hundred sixty dollars in one bank and then that was all the personal dealings I had with the bank. I opened I went to Panama twice to set up. Church corporations in Panama. And each time I traveled with four thousand one hundred

some odd dollars within the $5000 limit. The first time by the time I had paid off the attorneys for their expenses in my own live my own travel expenses I had about $900 left my bank and I put that in the bank account to the attorneys. Second time I think I just paid it all to the attorneys and they took care of it from there so all I can say I just set up is theory and then Jones who is not trusting me at that time because he saw a pretty savvy guy he saw that I was emotionally disengaging from the church and 775 and he didn't want me to know too much with respect to the specifics which was fine with me because I'm not a curious person and so I basically did set up the theory I have to admit to that. Now let's move on to another to your question. Do you think that government agents infiltrated Jones a settlement in Guyana before the tragedy. Could this have had anything to do a no I think Jim Jones was a victim of his own paranoia. I think that. He had the classic symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia he had lesions of grandeur he had the fear that everybody was out to get him. I don't think there were any agents in the temple I think it was almost impossible for an

agent to penetrate the temple because of what we call the catharsis sessions which were horrible experiences of criticism self criticism and theory was that it would make you stronger so everybody would say oh geez I want to be stronger I will go through this ordeal and I don't think anybody could have accepted for money that kind of humiliation and stayed with it have never been arrested in Marxism. When he was still here it was just something to develop when he was in. Diane I think he played around with it while he was here and I think that he always had. He was very eclectic. I mean he was religious to the religious to the religious he was political to the political when I went and I went in. Both on a poor religious and a political basis I came out of an evangelical Christian tradition and I had always been told that a true Christian is somebody who sells what he has and gives it to the poor. Somebody who takes up a cross and follows and lives in the Gautrain lifestyle that's so I had to give up everything. I sold my portion and all the rest I had to move along but we do have a lot of questions and only a few

minutes left. This viewer said in the December 11th issue of TIME magazine is it correct when it stated that you signed an affidavit to the effect that your son's father is indeed Jim Jones. I signed a statement to the effect that I had asked my wife to and had asked him to sign a child for me yes I did. OK this viewer would like to know it was the it was a it was you know it was not true. I didn't do that. Why did you sign it. Oh because that was part of the. That well basically I was a fool. OK. Item 1 item 2 is that at that time I mean Jones came to me and I I trusted him. He said Look Tim we have to keep We have to have. Build a strong group. We're in a hostile world we have to learn to trust one another I know how much you love Jim. This was after John John was born and he said I would like you to sign this as an act of trust. And I was a lawyer knew that that would have absolutely no legal significance under the California law that a child born to a husband and wife were having together is conclusively to

be presumed to be the child of the marriage. This year I would like to know why did you leave your son and die. I didn't leave my son in Guyana. What happened is that I went to go to Anna in February of 77. To try to give Jim Jones another chance because I thought well if he couldn't make people happy in the United States maybe he could make his people happy in a neutral country which was basically socialistic. And would and and we could build a utopian society so I went down there to be with my son I was very happy with my son we were together closely I came back for a two week vacation. When I came back I met my wife and some of the other defectors who told me things about Jim Jones that I had chosen to be too blind to myself and then when the new West article came out and I was asked to defend the church in San Francisco I knew then that I could either defend the church with all this knowledge I now had about Jim Jones or I could not and I chose not to. OK this is if you're from Menlo Park who wants to know do you think that Mark do you think Mark Lane and Charles Gary should be charged as material witnesses or at any circumstances I think they're clearly material witnesses because they were present to the Certainly

to the murder suicide of the 900 some odd people and I don't I mean I was to be fair to both Lee and Gary because I don't I wasn't standing in their shoes but I would like them to ask answer to the question as to why they didn't get on the trucks with Ryan to go to the airstrip and I have not heard an adequate response from either to the fact that Terry you heard him and Mark lying. Well I don't understand why any attorney who himself is seeking immunity would have the chutzpah. To bring a quiet who is also seeking immunity and try to parley with her off for him which is what newspaper reports say today I cannot answer your question as to what they're up to. But I think it's very strange. We have lots more questions from all around the Bay Area San Jose Livermore. We got into as many as we could in the time that we had. Thank you very much Ed Stone for answering them for us thank you. That's the news for tonight. Join us again tomorrow for a closer look when legal affairs reporter Bill Turner will preview some of the more important cases the U.S. Supreme Court will be hearing in its next session.

Thank you for watching. Good night.