Men of Our Time; 3; Benito Mussolini

I don't know if it's true or not, but I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true, think it's true, I think it's true, I think it's true The following program is from NET, the National Educational Television Network I'm Savile Davis of the Christian Science Monitor. Today's subject on this series of films about

prominent men of our time is Benito Mussolini. You may well wonder why he is here. Many people think of Mussolini as a fool in the classic sense of the term, a gestor, a mountain bank who strutted onto the world scene and was then killed and knocked off of it. Mussolini was all these things, but he and the system which he launched on planet Earth were also vastly more dangerous. Mussolini was the creator of modern fascism. He stole from the communists the techniques of secret police control and of mass propaganda and of thought control and he welded these together into a new form of tyranny on the extreme political right and where he led Adolf Hitler followed. Mussolini is being forgotten today, but we all are aware of the fact

that various forms of fascism still persist and are part of the ideological sickness of our time. After watching the film about Mussolini, we will discuss him and his career with Professor Massimo Salvadori, an Italian, a former member of the Resistance in Italy during World War II and now Dwight Mauro Professor of History at Smith College. For 20 years, Mussolini ruled Italy. For

20 years he occupied the centre of the European stage. He invented a political system fascism. He was a great actor and the balcony was his theatre. From the balcony he dominated crowds and intoxicated them. From the balcony he drew his inspiration. He once said, I'm a kind of mad poet. Rather he was a mad showman, a producer of spectacles who was often taken in by his own parents. Fascism was show, drama, a series of stage sets. It seemed really impressive, but as in the theatre there was nothing behind it, appearance was all. Fascism meant uniforms, the fascist salute. Mussolini's own wardrobe would address the whole costume play all by itself. He devised the effects and benefited from them. In his speeches the way in which he delivered the words was more important than

the words themselves. Mussolini called fascism part of the irrationalism of our age. He always appealed deliberately to passion, to emotion, to the senseless craving for wild action. It was in Milan before the First World War that Mussolini used the socialist platform as an outlet for his love of violence. Mussolini hated the rich, hated the aristocracy, hated respectability. He himself was a genuine son of the people. His father was a blacksmith. Mussolini struggled up to become an elementary school teacher. In Milan he preached violence and left others to practice it. His preaching made him the editor of a socialist newspaper. Mussolini was a first -rate journalist in a sensational way, good at inventing headlines. He had no interest in the news underneath. He soon abandoned his socialism

and kept the violence. The result was fascism. Violence for its own sake. Violence is a political method. The love of violence culminated in the march on Rome, which was to carry Mussolini to Supreme Power. He claimed to be saving Italy from Bolshevism or alternatively from Anarchy. And there was nothing in this. The fascists themselves caused the Anarchy from which they saved Italy. It was a simple exercise in blackmail and a successful one. Anarchy and violence would go on unless fascism were given power. Mussolini did not march on Rome or anyone else. He waited in the wings in Milan to see what would happen. He waited for the nerves of others to crack.

He always expected others to do his work for him. On this occasion, the opponents of fascism worked almost as hard for Mussolini as the fascist did. This was the reality behind the seizure of power. There was no seizure of power. There were fascist demonstrations. There was violence. There were cheers from Mussolini. He himself usually kept out of the way for fear of being arrested. The fascist violence ruled. Constitutional politicians and respectable generals began to say that the only way of keeping Mussolini apart is to make him Prime Minister. They pressed his advice on King Bikri Manuel III. In Rome, the king hesitated, trembled at the prospect of worse disorder. He was urged to use the army against the fascists. He refused. Instead, he decided to act

in a constitutional way and someone Mussolini to Rome to appoint him Prime Minister. Mussolini arrived in Rome in a speaking car. He'd entered it in Milan, wearing a black shirt, and on the way he changed into a fructote. Whether the train ran to time, history does not record. At any rate, he emerged wearing a top hat. He presented himself before Bikri Manuel as though he were a respectable statesman of the old style. Once in power, was Mussolini still the man of violence, the repudiator, the destroyer? Why did he now become a moderate conservative politician who wanted to bring Italy back to a quiet night? The answer was both the neither. Mussolini was a pretense of fraud as a creative statesman, but he used as much fraud as the man of violence and destruction. Mussolini was not

merely appointed Prime Minister by the king in the constitutional way. He received extraordinarily enough support from the majority and chamber during the early years of his part. They were only 50 fascist deputies, yet Mussolini held his own in the chamber without difficulty. Yet again, he was a mixture of conservatives and revolutionaries. He changed parliament into a sort of show with himself playing the chief role. He never gave it to solid speeches of information and policy. The technique of the balcony was brought indoors. It was the same with all his actions as Prime Minister. He liked the glamour of his public appearances. The blacksmith's son was now greeted with awe. He even managed to provide himself with a cabinet of conventional or conventional seeming politicians. He must surely have grinned

contemptuously at them behind his hand. Others did the work, the negotiations with Poland's statesman, for instance. Mussolini only appeared when treaties had to be signed and the cameras began to run. He kept ahead of his work by doing none. What did fascism accomplish in these early years? The trains ran to time, Italy went back to the gold standard. Even this prezeic operation was carried through in a dramatic way. Italians were roused to sacrifice their savings in a ceremonial burning of bombs. The one thing Mussolini worked at was the strengthening of his own power. The old guard were pushed out of responsible posts sent off into provincial obscurity. Unknown dependents of Mussolini took their place. The romantic poet, Du

Nuzio, had offered a rival version of melodramatic politics. Mussolini learned many tricks from him, then threw him aside. Mussolini concentrated on winning Italy, projecting himself as the new leader, the champion of the masses. There was only one man in Italy, Mussolini. He projected himself as a wonder of physical achievement. Arcing Henry VIII once said to the Venetian ambassador, feel that, the biggest thigh in England. Italians were left in no doubt that Mussolini was the strongest man in Italy. He was obsessed with physical display. There was not a sport at which he did not excel. In fact, this strong man worried constantly over

his digestion. There was not a woman who did not allegedly succumb to him. He had innumerable mistresses, though he was a devoted family man as well. If he saw farmers working in the field, Mussolini had to strip off his shirt and join them. The finest farm laborer in Italy. Of course, he hated physical labor and endured it only when the cameras were on him. Like all dictators, like the great Napoleon, Mussolini had visions of great architectural construction. He planned to make his name live forever by pulling down derelict buildings and restoring the glories of imperial Rome. He wanted to be remembered as the successor of the Roman emperors. Yet, too, he wielded the pick himself, enough to give the impression that

Mussolini had done all this construction. Of course, the real things were done in Italy in these years. Fascism gave Italy the first motor roads in Europe. The most lasting achievement of fascism was the draining of the Pontine marshes. The reclaimed land gave work to thousands of agricultural laborers. Other European governments did much the same and better without any of the advertisements and boasting. In Italy, it was all done for the greater glory of Mussolini. He was always on the spot at the decisive moment. All was there to take the credit. Even the increase of agricultural land was turned into a show. It received a dramatic name, the battle for grain. This was Mussolini's favorite word. Politics were battle, farming was battle, housing was battle. Naturally war and preparations for

war took the first place. In the years after the First World War when other countries were disarming, Italy under Mussolini was the one country which still talked to war and boasted of her armaments. In appearance Italy was being turned into a formidable military path. The reality, very little. The armaments were for show, impressive only on parade. The uniforms were more important than the equipment behind them. Mussolini liked to talk of Italy's 8 million banits. Actually there were fewer, far fewer. In any case modern wars are not one with banits. His navy he liked to think was formidable, but his experience was to show he was not equipped to fight in a really modern war. He seemed to be the most powerful statesmen in Europe, so long as parades and words were all that counted.

Europe trembled as the Italian people were stirred into a frenzy of enthusiasm, but Mussolini's balcony performances. The Hunter only charts a position of Russianлон crew. The Seal has got half a minute yesterday and passes from abroad. The Angelic I understood. We ask forecides! This is the next step. It's a CCP, I'm sorry.

Thanks. Have you ever laughed? Everyday, my poor viewers... smoke me outside. So stood Mussolini of the height of his path. He was the Dictator, the idol of the Mas küoder. all powerful. He stood alone on the balcony. But in Germany Hitler too was using the methods of fascism. He turned them to more fearful ends, the same

terrorism, the same parades, but with a more ruthless organization. Hitler at in June 1934, Hitler and Mussolini met for the first time. Hitler cut an unimpressive figure with none of Mussolini's physical glamour. Mussolini patronized him, showed him how to behave like a dictator. Hitler came forward on the balcony modestly or most timidly. Mussolini still seen the dominant figure. He was not impressed by Hitler. He said I don't like the look of him. Hitler gave no promises of good behavior. He was determined to get his way. In fact the comedy of fascism was over. Mussolini was no longer alone on the balcony and in any case the balcony was no longer enough. Reality was about

to break in. Hitler and Mussolini partied at Venice on outwardly friendly terms. Passes Salutes were exchanged. The switch in Rose was to begin. A month after their first meeting at Venice, the Nazis staged an uprising in Austria. They seized the chancellery in Vienna, murdered the Austrian chancellor Dolphus. Because Austria was the essential barrier between Italy and Germany, Mussolini took fright. He moved Italian troops to the Alpine frontier of the Brena. Hitler had to pull back and repudiate the Austrian Nazis. He was humiliated and Austria was saved for the time being. Mussolini was hailed as the champion of European peace. An unwelcome row for one who

prided himself on being the great man of war. Others drove him further along this road. At Stracer the statesmen of Europe gathered to form a united front against Hitler. Le Val and Flonda Ramsey make Donald to John Simon. They clustered around Mussolini, hailed him as one of themselves. Respectability threatened to take him prisoner. He was being urged to take a stand against Hitler and realize that he might have to do the fighting for England and France. Arrogantly and desperately Mussolini sought a way out. He resolved to conquer Abyssinia to establish there an Italian empire. For the first time this man of action acted. It was a characteristic move, born out of fear, frustration and

envy of the German strength. Mussolini recognized that his position in Europe was being threatened and he grabbed at Abyssinia as compensation. He chose the one victim against which even the Italian army, though badly equipped, could be successful. Plains and tanks created terror in this backward country. Italian aeroplanes sprayed poison gas on the Abyssinian forces. War could be once more a matter of show for self -indulgence, a further boost to Mussolini's vanity. The old master of display had his last triumph. As he played at war, the League of Nations condemned Italy as an aggressor and tried half -heartedly to deter Mussolini by imposing sanctions.

Heli Salassi himself appeared at Geneva to protest against the invasion of his country. But in vain, Mussolini was not impressed and the war continued. He deluded the Italian people into believing the poor, gallant Italy was surrounded by a ring of jealous powers. He persuaded the Italians to sacrifice their money, even their wedding rings, to continue to pay for the war. The Abyssinian surrendered. Mussolini had done it. He had given Italy an empire. This was his moment of greatest triumph. Europe defied Italian arms victorious. There was a feather in Mussolini's camp. In 20 years he had taught. Now he had acted. He thought himself to be the great

man of war. A swaggering Mussolini strutted on the balcony. If only history could have stopped at that moment, what a great man Mussolini would have seen. The triumph of Mussolini visited Hitler in Berlin. Hitler welcomed him as a conquering hero. Mussolini was anxious to show off his versatility. He addressed the crowd in German. I can see the German army maneuvers. He saw for the first time the discipline and might of the German forces. He was impressed and apprehensive.

This was from Mussolini the moment of decision. The choice seemed easy. On one side resisting Germany. On the other going along with Hitler. At bottom Mussolini did not trust Hitler. He did not admire or like him. He feared Hitler. His fears came out. In 1938 Hitler invaded Austria without a word of warning to Mussolini until the last moment. This time Mussolini remained silent and acquiesced in Hitler's conquest. Hitler ran over with gratitude. Tell Mussolini I will never forget this. I shall stick to him even if the whole world be against him. This is the one promise which Hitler was to keep. Mussolini did not like to confess that he had surrendered his

independence and pretended that he was still free. He signed with the British the Anglo -Italian pact. He had no meaning. The British made concessions to Mussolini. He dared not cooperate with them against Hitler. Hitler was now thrusting to the center of the state. He visited Rome and Mussolini was clearly no longer the dominant figure. His eclipse by the man of real power had begun. Hitler as head of state was entertained by victory manual. Mussolini had to trail behind a mere prime minister. His great pride now was to show how he was imitating the Germans. The Italian forces must be taught to do the goose step. They paraded before Hitler and did it badly. Mussolini was angry. The Italians he declared are a nation of waiters. But they were going to be

forced into greatness whether they liked it or not. They didn't like it. They didn't like the Germans. But it was of no avail. Mussolini was the dictator. He had chosen the course. He was determined to follow where Hitler led. The Italian people had to go along with him. Even now Mussolini hesitated to commit himself fully to Hitler's side. He had a last moment of seeming independence. When war threatened over Czechoslovakia, it was Mussolini who proposed the conference of Munich. He produced the supposed compromise on which the conference agreed. Mussolini seemed, but only seemed, to be the great man of Europe. Actually, he had become Hitler's jackal. He was as frightened of war as the Western powers.

The British he thought once an imperial had now become a decadent people. Never Chamberlain still believed, but aesthetically, that Mussolini could be used as a moderating influence on Hitler. The more Chamberlain pleaded, the more Mussolini despised him. He made the fateful error of underrating British resolve. He thought he had saved the peace of the world. The British would go on feeding out of his hand, and Hitler, thanks to Mussolini's mediation, would get everything he wanted in Europe without a great war. Hitler took the centre of the stage again. On the 15th of March 1939, he marched into Czechoslovakia. Again, Mussolini was told only at the last minute. He grumbled every time the man occupies a country, he sends me a message. Mussolini reacted by invading Albania, a country which had been for

years in Italian dependency. There was no resistance, and for that matter, nothing to be gained. It was the last of Mussolini's empty triumphs. The charade was over, and the stage was set for real events. It was not Mussolini, but Hitler who took the leading role now. On the 1st of September 1939, he attacked Poland. Mussolini stood in the wings. Should he get into the act? Did he have the strength? And if he did, what was in it for him? He reviewed his ill -equipped troops and obsolete weapons, and decided that he couldn't be ready for war until 1942. A humiliating confession for a so -called man of action. What could he do? Mussolini went to meet Hitler at

the Brenner and explained that he was not ready for war. Hitler didn't really care. He was confident that he could defeat France without Italian assistance. Mussolini was relieved. He could remain non -beligerent and could go on hoping that somehow rewards would fall into his lap without fighting. But he was to be proved wrong. The German armies attacked the Allies in France, and in less than a week, they broke through. But usual, Mussolini had left things too late. Unless he moved fast, he would not take his place at the victor's table. In desperate haste, he made his fatal decision. On the 10th of June 1940, Mussolini appeared on the balcony. Although he didn't know it, he was to be the last

time. He declared war on England and France. He too would be a world conqueror. Il tuo coraggio! Mussolini had indeed left things too late. Hitler was already in Paris. A week later, the war in France was over. The French signed the armistice of defeat. German troops occupied much of France. Italy occupied two French villages. Mussolini was compelled now to fight a real war. Now came the test for his boasted armaments. They failed

to pass the test. The Italian ships proved no match for the British. The Italian battleships were sunk at sea. They were sunk in harbour. The Mediterranean never became the Italian lake of Mussolini's dreams. Another dream was to be shattered. For years he had gloried ambitions of conquering Egypt and of a triumphal Napoleonic entry into Alexandria. He waited, poised in the wings, with the sword of Islam in his hand, ready to lead the victory parade. But it was not to be. The dream was broken by the reality of Alamey. The Italian armies collapsed. The Italian

soldiers surrendered in droves. They were glad to be finished with the war, with fascism, with Mussolini. He was outwardly unshaken. In fact, he too wished only to be finished with the war. The British and the American armies cleared North Africa. Soon they would be on Italian soil. Mussolini resolved to assert himself. He went to see Hitler in order to insist that the war must be ended at once. He'd set off for Germany and brave spirits. But the moment he met Hitler, his courage crumbled. Hitler's determination was unshakable. He was determined to fight to the last and he insisted that Mussolini must fight with him. Mussolini too had to pretend that he was confident of final victory. He too had to blow himself up once more into being the great dictator.

Hitler's devotion to Mussolini was unchanged. He would never desert his comrade. Mussolini had to agree to go on with the war. He pretended, at least while he was with Hitler, that he was again inspired. He knew that he took with him no promise of German assistance and that he was finished. Others must get Italy out of the war. He could not. In Rome, he faced the Grand Council. For the first time, they challenged his authority. He was outvoted. The next day, Mussolini reported to the king. After 20 years of feebleness, victory manuals dismissed him and ordered his arrest. The people who had once supported him now demonstrated against

him. The old political leaders emerged from their obscurity. A free political life began again. It was as though fascism had never been. The balcony was empty. Swiftly and silently, Mussolini was spirited away. First to one island, then to another. Forgotten, rumoured dead. In fact, he was in turn on an island, along with political prisoners, whom he himself had sent there. Forgotten by everyone. Forgotten by everyone except Hitler. His last move was to a mountain hotel at the top of Gran Sasser, alone and isolated. Mussolini meditated. I'm a man three quarters dead. But the drama was not yet over. On the 12th of September

1943, Hitler sent Otto Scott Sini and German commando to rest to Mussolini. Mussolini appeared, an old, broken man. He no desire to be forced back to life. He asked his rescuers to take him to his country home. There he would retire forever. Impossible, they said. Hitler had not rescued Mussolini as a personal kindness. He had rescued him so that Mussolini could be again the great dictator, could again play the great man. He had become to the full extent Hitler's prisoner. A mere puppet he was flown to Munich. There deeply moved Hitler was waiting for him. His only friend. Hitler had sworn to stand by Mussolini and he kept his promise.

Although shown every outward honor, still treated as Hitler's equal, it was made clear to Mussolini what he had to do. He had to go back to Italy and to start up the show all over again. Did Mussolini have any hope, any illusions? Even now he was mesmerized by Hitler. He grew more resolute in his presence. He lost heart as soon as Hitler's back was turned. But there was no alternative. A man who has played a part all his life cannot drop it or take up another one. Mussolini muttered, I must follow my destiny to the end. Back in Northern Italy, Mussolini set up a government at Salo on Lake Garda. Ministers met, shuffled papers, solemnly deliberated. It was all a sham. The Allies were in southern Italy. The Germans ran

northern Italy. There was no Italian army. The Italian authorities had no power. The government of Salo discussed things in the void. Mussolini often broke off meetings, stared at the rain and said, we are all dead. Yet still the old act had to be performed. Mussolini had to meet Hitler for fresh conferences. He had to behave as though he'd something important to contribute to the discussions. Round him at these discussions stood only Germans. The two supermen had become shabby. The two men of power were all powerful no longer. Yet there were still sparks of the old magic. Mussolini still got the cheers of the crowd when he appeared. Perhaps this was genuine enthusiasm. In any case, he'd made no difference.

Mussolini had become nothing, a man of no word count. He trailed off once more to visit Hitler in East Prussia. Hitler greeted him two hours after a bomb had exploded in Hitler's headquarters. Mussolini listened to Hitler's sad tale, sympathized with him, tried to restore his spirits. This was the end of an extraordinary relationship. Hitler and Mussolini were never to meet again. The brutal friendship was over. Now it was really the end for Mussolini. The Allies were advancing into Northern Italy. The German armies facing them collapsed.

Partisans arose everywhere on the Allied side. They demanded to take over control in Milan. The Germans decided to leave. Mussolini went there to negotiate with the Partisans. Then on some impulse, he decided to leave with the Germans. He left in a German truck, disguised in a German great coat. As the German convoy passed through the mountains, Mussolini was joined by his mistress, Clara Pitacci. At a mountain village, the convoy was stopped by Partisans. They agreed to let the Germans go through if they would hand over any Italians. Mussolini and Clara Pitacci were discovered. The Partisans, not quite knowing what to do with them, stuck them in a

remote farmhouse. The next day, communist Partisans learned who the prisoners were. They went up to the farmhouse, told Mussolini to come with them. Mussolini said, you've come to rescue me. I'll give you an empire. The Partisans took Benito Mussolini and Clara Pitacci a few yards along the road. There they shot them both. 28th April 1945. The dead bodies were taken in a truck down to Milan. Here they were put on public display. Once more, the crowds turned out to see Mussolini. This time to demonstrate their hate and to heap on him all the blame for the disasters which have overwhelmed Italy. For the last

time, Mussolini occupied the center of the stage. Those were sometimes amusing but more often chilling and terrifying pictures. Let's discuss them. Professor Massimo Salvadori is an Italian. He was educated in England and on several occasions worked in the underground against Mussolini, both before the war and during the war with the Italian resistance. He is now teaching history at Smith College. But to Salvadori, it's easy to say that Mussolini was defeated in war and that fascism collapsed with him. Let's do the harder thing. Let's look at those pictures of Mussolini in the days of his apparent glory and look behind the pictures. What did Mussolini do to the Italian people in those days when he was apparently successful to the outside world? In order to explain that, one has got to go back to what was for the

Italian nation, the great crisis. The crisis of 1990 and 1920. Italy had gone through the war. There had been an enormous amount of suffering. People came back home. Many Italians resented having participated in the war. And there was a reaction which took the form of an enormous expansion of the Italian socialist movement. There were elections at the end of 1919. Three elections, of course, about one -third of Italian voters voted for the socialist party. For over a year, for nearly two years, there was a good deal of talk of a socialist revolution in Italy. And one mustn't forget that everything which happened either in Italy or

in most of Europe at the time had one point of reference which was the Soviet Union, which was not yet called the Soviet Union of course. It was Russia. It was a civil war. It was a terror. There was in Italy a minority, a large minority, enthusiastic about Russia, the Bolsheviks and Lenin. There was a majority which was scared of the possibility of a repetition in Italy or what had happened or what was happening in Russia. Then it all came to an end. It had nothing to do with Mussolini or with fascists. I would put it more in terms of the nature, certain fundamental characteristics of the Italian nation. Italians are not, most of them, by nature, violent, revolutionists. They may talk about revolution, but to engage in a revolution movement, that's a different kind of thing. They got excited. They got it out of their systems and the excitement to hide down. They had a

certain die -down at the end of 1920. But when it died down, the people had been scared. Many of them decided they wanted to take a revenge on the socialist who had been responsible for their fright. How are you talking about now? You're not talking about people like Mussolini. You're talking about people in control of the Italian economy. No, I talk generally of Italians independently from social classes because this was not a question of class. About one -third of Italians had been on the side of socialist revolutionism. Two -thirds had been against. It was within those two -thirds, people of all classes, upper classes, middle classes, intellectuals, lower middle class, peasants, wage earners, that fascism found its fallers and supporters. Where were you at that time, Professor Salvadori?

At the time I was in Italy when I lived with my family in Florence. Did you have friends of yours who felt this way? I remember one occasion. It was the first time I heard the name of Mussolini mentioned. This must have been sometime early in 1920. It was mentioned with great devotion by a cost student of mine. And somehow there was something in what I was told then about Mussolini and the fascists, which I disliked intensely. Later on I tried to figure out what it was, the thing which I disliked. Very simple. It was the emphasis on violence. And I remember shortly after, again at school, I was in a class of

about 35 pupils. We were all between 13 and 15. Out of 35 I counted. They were 30 in favor of fascism. Five against fascism. Therefore, there was a support. There was on the part of many admiration. There had been for a long time considerable propaganda in Italy against what Americans call democracy, free representative institutions, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, all the things that have been criticized by people of the right, by people of the left. There was a general feeling, among a major of Italians, that it was a good thing to change the political structure of the country. That's one thing which is a socialist, at all, but to do, only they didn't do it. The fascists offered to

do exactly the same thing, which had been proposed by the revolutionary wing of the Socialist Party, which later on in 1921 became the Italian Communist Party. The overthrow of the democratic process and established the establishment of a violent dictatorship. There was a general consent that democracy was no good. And it was, because of this general consent, that Mussolini found it relatively easy to arrive in power. Now, how did it get into power? The thing which happened is this. When the danger of the rate of revolution was over, small groups were organized in various cities of northern Italy to do the thing which I mentioned before, to take revenge. Because of the fright which had been caused by the Socialists, a revenge

in what way? Bains in most simple way. You mustn't forget that one of the most important elements in what the sociologists call social change is the use of force and violence. You had small groups in the various cities, big and small, in Milan, in Bologna. In many of the provincial cities, we just got together one day of the wake, 50, 100, 200 of them. They went to the house of a prominent not necessarily socialist. Anyone who might be identified with the democratic regime, they would kill them. They were about 3 ,000 people killed in a minor civil war. This is what we would call a vigilante spirit in the United States, mobs of frustrated people taking the law into their own hands. Exactly. And at the same time, this authoritists do nothing. Why?

Because there had been the fear of the rate of revolution, and it was hoped that the threat of a black revolution, the fascist revolution, with the neutralized it, so the fascist would destroy the possibility of the socialist to get into power, the socialist would destroy the possibility of the fascist to get into power, and things would go back to normal. It was a little of the so -called Machiavellian way of thinking. Then there was, in 1921, the occupation by fascist squads of municipal administrations. The thing which would be done, it was done in Ferrara, for instance, it was done in Perugia, fascists from the province, and the neighboring province would get together, and they would physically occupy the town hall, compelling the mayor, and the

older men and the members of the municipal council to reside. And presumably spreading fear among other things, that other people would be treated the same way? Exactly. That does not need a massacre to inflict fear or to operate a terror. Just enough to kill one person, others know that they are going to be killed, and then the tendency is to keep quiet. And this went on all through 1921 and 1922, and the march on Rome, at the end of October 1922, was nothing else, but a continuation of what had been going on during the previous two years. In Italy, the number of actual fascists was not very great. It is true that when the fascist combatiment that they were called, were organized for the first time as a political party, membership

arose within a very short time to about 300 ,000, which was considerably more than the membership of either the socialist party or the Catholic party, or the various liberal parties. But altogether, people with a fascist mentality, people who, as it was said in the film, were animated by a spirit of balance and unreasonableness. Were not a large section. What was important was that a very large number of Italians of all classes, although not being fascist themselves, not sharing the mentality, the attitudes, the goals of the fascists, supported the fascists. There you have a fundamental distinction between the situation in Germany, let's say, and in Italy. As far as I know, in Germany, a very large number of Germans were sincere Nazis or fascists. In Italy, the sincere Nazis or fascists were not many, but the

supporters were very numerous. And that's where you have an explanation for the things which will happen 20 years later, because when the crisis came, who remained, only those who were real fascists, who were not many. All the millions who had been these supporters of fascism, they changed, they had never been really fascists, things now have changed them. There was the war, there was a possibility of a total defeat, they abandoned fascism completely. What about the resistance in Italy at that period? Were there at least a few who were doing their best to fight against the regime? Italians had their in advantage over other nations ruled by fascists or ruled by the Germans. There had been a pleticon, citric, active, underground ever since the

beginning of the fascist dictatorship. Looking back now over the whole history of fascism and trying to draw a few conclusions from it, how successful was Mussolini's thought control, his censorship of the press, his effort to put across an ideology? It was pretty successful until the beginning of the war, the year 1941 at least. The overwhelming majority of Italians were living in a full paradise. Either they liked the fascism or not, that was secondary. But there was a general conviction that Italy was strong, while from a military point of view there was no strength. There was a general conviction that there had been a considerable economic improvement while we know through statistics that the standard of living of Italians was lower in 1939, than it had been in 1922. But those things, Italians did not know, it is astounding what can be achieved through the control of the press in a totalitarian

country. When you never hear another voice, and there is never a possibility of a comparison, when there is no criticism. And I know many Italians who were sincere anti -fascists and who remained anti -fascists all through difficult years. But if they were convinced that Mussolini had made Italy strong and prosperous. What was your impression of the personality of Mussolini? When he talked to those of us who were reporters, he was quiet and almost appeared to be modest, as if he was trying to say that bombast out on the balconies for the crowds, now I'm trying to talk your language with you. I would say Mussolini was an intelligent man, and out of his very considerable energy. He was very ambitious, and he was able to realize for a while

his ambitions. It is also my impression that he remained basically through all his life, what he had been as a young man, belonging to that group of restless individuals who resent society, the people who today, for instance, in the United States, would be described as sometimes as the new left. They know what they are against, they don't know what they are for. And it was very clear for Mussolini since his earliest days when he called himself an anarchist. And when he became a socialist, he never became a Marxist. Here he was, total revolt against something mythical, which is called the bourgeoisie, and there is which goes with it, democracy, capitalism. These are where the things which he hated, more

than anything else, and he went on hating them right to the end of his life. What would you say to Americans who think that Mussolini was a joke? Unfortunately, it was not a joke. It was not a joke for Italy. Italy was at war for 10 years because of Mussolini and fascism. There was their mention of the Bissignan War, because that begins in the month of December 1934. From December 1934 until May 1945, Italy was at war. At war in Africa, at war in the Mediterranean, at war in Spain, at war in Russia, at war in the Balkans, at war in Italy itself. Hundreds of thousands of Italians were killed because of Mussolini and Italian fascism. Hundreds of thousands of non -Italians were killed. It was the Mediterranean, in Africa, in Russia. So one cannot take it as a joke, another is something else to be added. Mussolini created a formula,

a political and social formula, which found admirers everywhere in the world. It is easy to day to minimize it, but one can try to figure out what was the situation around 1939, 1940, 1941. When fascism controlled the all of the European continent, western of the Soviet Union, with the single exception of a few very small countries, when the Japanese leadership had identified itself with fascism, when they were fascists in Latin America, in the Near Eastern, in India. Now where it had begun, the name itself indicates, it is an Italian phenomenon, and it was Mussolini who had formulated the position. Thank you, Mr. Salvadori. The next subject in this series, Men of Our Time, King George V.

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