1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-30; Part 4 of 6

as bell white house that was like coming from the president and that he would follow these instructions because it's a farming today our relationship with her was never one of principle an agent or recently issued instructions to him we want to be and it was on a peer relationship where if there were a project and we raised and having and how one kind or another the illegal worker in the house we requested and he didn't feel comfortable with that or he hadn't had this relationship in the office as iraqis or he just didn't like the sound of that he felt very free to say no thank you and this business of of his marching orders from the white house doesn't just doesn't ring true referring to your telephone

conversation with his to come back on april nineteen nineteen seventy three and as you look to pay for a pay for it and you work a lot but i think the point at which i will make in the future if i'm given the chance that you are not under our control in any sort of slavery sense whether we agree that you would not be able to combat and through that i only on order and you know on the record and that this is something that you know potentially important and that you were assured with altogether thank you

and then you're lying to me yeah yeah yeah there's no deal yet and you as a movie is you know i mean are they were usually now now you've got to find one that they didn't act that way and two so it never came up that is stating that i actually on order and you know one direction and if this is something you know important and that they were assured it was proper but i would take a lot now at that point that the propriety issue you based on the minnow and judd

and knew the bubble and agony and banjo or have your questions and it is reminding that he acted on orders what i remind him that your money and your money and then you rely on winning iowa are reminding him is that you were not murray and i'm

robert siegel that yes it was important that he do it and that it was it was that basically and that if they didn't do it that way than my recollection before he testifies to sign this is not now in august nineteen seventy two un you then it's just raising this at all right now is the question when you you know this to be as an activist and i think that you know that i i wasn't able to fix that they were big events are not able to say that

now you're going to come back again and a direct hit now it's official they were disgusted me on the law was that every about that interview and then when i am at the renaissance right now and that way he was able to reason what is your goal is reporting that he was able to raise that money at that time i had the impression that that was what he was telling the july

fourteenth ivan this all as we discuss his use of us west to carry my my impression was unsparing out from the west coast to the east i never did know the amount that you raised until it up must come on in april of this year was conducting this in court and i don't recall his ever telling me who it was really is the money oh i heard in justified i think in a building is they heat on the seventy thousand are for april of this year you know all they make campaign contributors somebody when i really think he described to me that it was a bit of a do people in your business in california

raise your mind that make this combat was going to use them and see what information that you have working shortly after there was a lot of there was a lot of suspicion shortly after night i would put this in the essay the first six weeks after that the rate in a great deal of suspicion of mr reeder largely based on and so there was a video of speculation that i can recall during that during that period of time and it culminated in the conversation which must've been i had with the attorney general refers july where this was specifically discussed as mr rivers of all attorney general said based on the

fbi interviews of prosecuting attorneys examination into rivers involved relating to money and hers was a square dispute between the center and the state's long after the truth of the assertion about the rivers involved now and that the attorney general anticipated that mr mcgregor might possibly have begun to take effect the men ranger now that remain very open question so far as i knew until dinner someone told me that the river had in fact justified and then just as matters unfolded and he testified at the trial was considered to have to tell the truth when he came out of the store what why are you aware that time in the end of june july and august the metal mr roland martin supporters to be more frequent meetings daily meetings discussing the routers

involvement with that groove going to sell it for a grand jury to be is that the fight that he actually is that i mean he didn't want you her hat that would not be inconsistent with a meeting the president the attorney general where the reporting was not things to the news besides that it's infecting was involved in a cover up i think it was not a very gentle with fewer people so the only time you add any there are others that is the attorney general understanding of the reporters involved when he met with you in the city general agreement i don't recall any such a week it said the attorney general report you concerning not yet and want to tell you that what i discussed that

they considered that important conflict in the evidence as between slalom a group and the way up to the attorney general at that point in time has to regroup might take the fifth amendment now you were in seven years you disgusting that means that more than just the ordinary morning italy fifteen in the morning aren't we have them eleven o'clock when you're

very young your career i don't know the purpose of that meeting any idea the indictments however to the market around the white house is sort of discounted september fifteenth action so to speak by reason of the attorney general's announcement on september twelfth for the president and the cabinet that some of those assembled at the seven suspects were the only ones who would be indicted so i don't think that he announced a formal announcement on the fifteenth was in fact many musicians went when did you first learn of the fifth graders activity and be awful i think that was about the time that i first began to be talked about in the press i

have not heard as ready as an individual prior to that and then they do holding meetings involving that medicine involving now there were a number of meetings to determine what the white house knew his position or westernization should be on you rolling on matters i learned about them and those meetings as such but i did i did begin to learn more in the end of october and the first couple weeks of november you make any if you disobey them a preparation of the public statements concerning his role is and through those statements did not in effect now as jay control in europe lines reading or because they worked for the campaign to say did not in effect acknowledge that not about did not acknowledge oh i was an

impression that the that the material that was being worked on and you have an exhibit that i don't have my handwriting on it i had a couple of depositions were affidavits that were proposed a beer tax which didn't a rather full and complete now unfortunately those were not those were not released you recommended it to the authorities now you recall in september nineteen seventy one traveling with the president either you indicated at the time nasr well you know the president president why uniquely japanese prime minister in september's out in england yet you're on your way the

planks boy a petition sometimes i can't remember what was on that particular issue and we came back did you first become aware that i'm not sure and i was never aware in terms of you just friend request was seeking executive clemency and those in the clutter is a

landing marina where after mr colson whitehead his conversation with that that mr bittman had attempted to opening conversation with mr golson on that subject with mr colson says he refused to date now i'm so far and you don't know it we have been very careful and not making any sense now having me and again this is approximately the time

that it requires the issue came up in sending an architect and a columnist at the corner of the investment or spoken about him and that you said according to his testimony that you inject with the president you're objecting to you were in the company that meeting of two

one time on the floor it's not the time you're suggesting not according to marcus also is me yes about this dramatic ten minute meeting with the president or thirty five hundred did you send it to the president and his cousins that and yet when in july of nineteen seventy two now why in july would you be disgusted that because it occurred to me as an original proposition that some earlier somebody was going to raise this issue and i thought it would be a very good idea to talk through the president before came up in any specific context and find out exactly where we stand well that's

why we didn't come to mind would've raised that question because you know that you had a defendant who was an employee of the committee to reelect president and it seemed to me a very natural thing that increases would be raised sometime with the way along with a long walk on the beach on that particular day and we do we talk about one subject and this is one of the subjects i mean that's obvious not that i can recall a justice somewhat surprising that so right then you would even be talking about that you wrote it wouldn't have surprised as i sense that doesn't surprise you maybe you into law shortly after reagan before any indictments you're disgusting and you never get to have a

discussion with the iran in january and discuss that with the president after the bad about the victims never again just before but the point in time actually just before mr kahn pleaded guilty as one has to be used against mr deans original star was of course i jumped up from the meeting and ran downstairs and pop into the oval office which of course is nonsense so they contrive this of history and neither one of them are true it's bad thank you sir yes

that meeting was crawling across the president had asked who was handling the preparation of the white house case for the senate select committee hearings and what planet was being done and what was the white house position going to be on matters like executive privilege and that there were no answers to those questions we had just come from the inaugural everybody had been very busily occupied at that point and frankly there wasn't anybody handling that and so one of us and i forget who called john dean and asked him to come out and i sit down and and talk through this also that the white house response speak to the upcoming hearing some sounds like that all the discussion includes the border but they're also include now what's that you might pay in terms of affecting the resolution authorizing this

committee what's that you might think an outstanding council that will be helpful as the us the body a little bit like the upcoming trial so let's do it one opposing counsel was like and so on so it was a it was a service general brainstorming session on the side and all subjects that you mentioned came up as a whole raft of other subjects relating do these are coming here are unaware then what scientists to get into and buy to follow on on this discussion yes mr dean was given an assignment to attempt to repair a general statement of watergate and it's brought his best smiling sobriety planning and execution of a break in the

white is a kind of a preliminary state because it was decided that rather than two die by inches in terms of having questions asked and tiny bits of fact the mother answered through the process of hearing would be much better if the entire story were laid out a comprehensive statement in advance some is being was given an assignment after a number of hours of discussion it was sort of the consensus of the meetings as possible management entity would not be in the white house or for government people but would be the candidate relax and so the thought was a committee to reelect with john mitchell stepping back into the management of it it would be an ideal for politicians the various management problems associated with easier to convict more

to go and talk to john mitchell about this idea of her testimony about that were going up to talk to him about money that had to do as i recall with a specific aspects has been raised the point that these defendants in the integrated place many of them either had cases that were pending sentencing or more on appeal or in some kind of interlocking thursday and that they might have the right to have their rights protected by seeking a judicial the way of the committee hearings it was recognized and fours passing that that was not obviously reporters services attorneys they and so that was a bit more testified in a rather passing subject but nevertheless it was noticed as a money problem but not be satisfied out of campaign funds and that he should also talk to john mitchell about the why why would you leave their opinions on the

positions the white house concern yourself over to be a criminal defense lawyer is a case that might have some impact on the lenders but it was it was it was in the nature of a strategy issue and it was a passing strategy for a wooden want to get out or survive you focused on central strategy they're very glancing blow on passing reference to an aspect of his listeners to being raised as a as a legitimate part of the strategy as saying well or something and not to be a central theme it was considered as a strategy to keep this committee from throughout this doesn't even cover the military tactics covered a wide variety of subjects including military tactics but certainly not limit what they do have different for what they get different well i think it was conceived that be

the administration and it was a very partisan and i think there was there was strong when sir that that this whole process of the select committee would have worked at these serious disadvantages of the administration there was no sense of that this is and i think if you had enough time to see the agenda items the dissident testified that later went into the president concerning better and i'm also an arctic council issues yes i did i think there are that the the suggestion that that's somehow relates to the low cost of meeting of battling over

ronald reagan's alma mater if you're better witness on that but that what i know what took place at the lower cost and at the relationship between the two is is much more tenuous than that the whole point is that it will follow all of the cost and rather than now and even then i think they're the consummate relationship is now let's go back to your progress your diary of the white house lawn on or nineteen thirty three when you indicate when they got them about the issue that i would say that i just as two thousand on the foil for review the original that you met with the president and three pm four pm and that you were with three syllable word or workable period and the

final and were unthinkable when i and the good thing that doesn't work very violently you know i don't have all of refinements in my very shallow at the darkest there was in the meeting i was in for approximately forty five minutes of a total of about an hour and forty minute something about that that was a time when you're with the president and it's the whole them and yourself oh it sounds now in march nineteen seventy three did you become aware of the increased demand on for my support of what well i would use the word increase because i think i didn't have any plan which to to identify this isn't increase i certainly am form is to be

the director of the question in my belief that this time again having recall the money was paid before the fence of the propriety of things one of them such a bed with a maid loesser oh well now let me separate out all that the testimony that you just answered in that question maybe you could restate the question with only in dallas as you know you had you had found nothing wrong that are just before and then on the february tenth meeting again to discuss making certain payments or one of the majority muslim orders since michel that raising some funds and you become aware of the man is the difference between that those dramatic there's no suggestion that any money be paid in consideration of anybody silence or or anything that the money we were talking about what constitutes to compensate attorneys to file motions in behalf of the defendants as far as i'm concerned that

that would have been a completely a legitimate undertaking if money was not made them would say so and so but if money were made he would not say so and so that's the first time i encountered anything of that sort in this entire libya ten months take a conversation why money i don't recall ever hearing it i recall is really coming to camp david on one occasion during the two months we're upper we repeatedly since he testified in effect we repeatedly tried to get a transcript are happy that day without success for me is that

i would certainly like to see it because i own will or well any answer to your question is yes that's right no really well john ehrlichman us attorneys examine the script of the coals and conversation with howard and we're going to take a short break public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after a pause for a station identification unabridged coverage

of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service the pain it's been

from washington and fight continues its coverage or hearings by the senate select committee

on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert mcneil as little better than she counsels and dashes as john ehrlichman if you heard the recording of a conversation between hard to count you're seeing a lot of pain wow what conceivably all the way down being exploited immediate threat was in terms of the hotel seeing the things about what he did at the white house from its programming i think that they refer to the beach california writes what's your thing i can think of the idea that the white house for me to have any kind of them

and i asked rasmussen game if he knew what this was about and he said listen that that's not how you well you're pulling metal where you at i've heard that conversation mr mickle and it was pretty insane just is that matter bacon carrot without reference to ponder or anybody and mr mitchell sort of writing and say maybe oh i guess so or something buried at the un in fact it wasn't until a testimony here than i was aware

that you have and you know they're waiting for the rules and by the time i disgusted when you already knew certainly the white house lawn ms nolan in the midst of the meetings with the increased risk that unity and then over at the biggest line here not while i'm on our next joint meeting was called the mind with the president he said a lot of them out of the weekend though are words to that effect and when i expect that state meaning this broad statement has

been with her it was on i think it was i said i don't think you're going to get that state and then he said why not a nice image i mean there's a lot of reasons why such a statement should not be released and a related to the rights of defendants and of a civil suit that was pending and the problems of executive privilege and so and the president expressed considerable in patients and began to lean on at her and i soon as president i'm in the middle of this and i will be very grateful if you would have a personal conversation with john been about these problems so that you'll get a firsthand be over the objections of the year's race with a request that you've been making and he's a lot of that and it was very soon after returning to was that the ivanhoe in one a lot of money and a lot of missing john dean

immediately that day and he did and that was the first meeting of the searchers but i think it was the same time in a massive operation center administration people into the country and questions of him and overspending budget cuts and things of that and very explicit instructions in my nose and in fact i am to discontinue any further devotional time through the whole watergate said the president satisfied that he's in charge thank you exactly right and the

vision is to be a question of the president much whether that would be very much affected and you know when you advised president or in your presence that that would be at all remember that shit i testified that when i first got into this matter on the thirtieth of march again that one of the great remaining open questions was a small business in our attorney client privilege work these of the president and have some friends and i had to call for a lot of breathing and that it was still an open question but i was not well versed in the senate prior to that time and i relied entirely honestly to preserve that relationship and whatever way to be preserved it out to be but that's again a question of

scheduling its opposite this is the examination mr wittman will not be completed as we've all the time and i want to mention again that mr holman statement will require at least two hours to read i would like him to start a second rate i don't know could i have the assurance of a committee that at most dominant regional statement of what we recess this evening or that we'll begin the morning and low in the way they operated you

know investigations all the idea that as it might mean you will i'm david greene now i do was

going to be over and the opposition to that was well they fall white house bowling alley because of the position of economic issues and all that issues of the constitution thank you i think they need to be

oh nice and the state will you do that being said several weeks after that before we had a conversation with his being in which he finally alluded to my relationship with mr camargo is presenting some embarrassments in may but certainly nothing that would be a lot of back on the twenty first of march

i don't believe that must've been syria that case crystallized it was he was delivering messages that it was at that moment with that was that mine is the morning that as the president of that prompted a warning that meeting with her eye popping all that three signaling it's a question an idea oh yeah now if in fact the president the president has made

it has made for a second i think amazing as it was seventeen serious charges and the eighteen of the pipes through what was he was concerned or charges and they happen to be sure were and it will use that in that low and that the president senses that you know the best information yet and he doubled available and even the white house right now i think if the president had received information so first

it would not finding the events that were well i had i certainly am not going to respond to that question is that it involves your own personal hypothesis and invited me to join us which i'm not willing to do i stayed with my hypothesis is with regard to the president's conduct after march twenty first and i don't know the routines or i take it because of what appeared on what the president might be what if it was someone else who was present not like mr malo also that might want to know did you have the additional you a listen i thought it made it wasn't rock which is that there is people really

plan based on that information and information he was giving prosecutors would be in our work is that this exhibit that you know again you present a lot more of the president fourteen years and the president in a statement now in between that you wear are finding it isn't that though the president and portable of the president as well

information they were getting lots of yes by calling us one needs to five fifteen on the afternoon of the forty five presidents request and advising him my a report to the president that morning and also my interviews with mr mitchell most river then after that call and you know it turned down and all my meeting with us attorney and prosecuting attorneys need and made arrangements to see the president after church on the morning and fifty and when you say that actually the president's statement on april seventeen on the immunity exclusively how art farmer you would testify to question what you

indicated it would pull an investigation i don't consider it coming in every you know i mean there must be this and these are able to give the president effectively report on what they were getting in the grand garrulous old testament general probably also information information to get in his eye just for effective chairman question there were really a number of converging line at this point and i certainly did it tanden and will quite prestigious claiming credit for cracking the case re enactment but you have the grand jury and you have the the press prefers working along the grand jury a one man at the department of justice ever and then you have this this sort of subsidiary injury that i was making all of which contribute to the president's point of knowledge inside out of this state on the seventeen was not intended by any means

the cap or the inquiry one hour after that and so i think you have to see this is the convergence of a number of different efforts it isn't about why did you or were you at that the white house has been anyway and many of the state in making a second no sir have you ever received in the directly or indirectly on the first of january ninth not any campaign funds for any purpose any campaign funds for any purpose i had some expenses reimbursed at the gop convention which were not legitimate government expenses and which were reimbursed made by the committee to reelect and i've forgotten what those were they were quite normal or

well it is possible i was still receiving reimbursement of expenses from the sixty eight campaign in january sixty nine i'm not i'm not prepared to say we want our would be i would think a fairly expensive because at that time i was really you know and sixty campaign director in and out i was wrapping up a vermont personal expenses and that in that process you know i just not able to recall when the us kept coming in that later not they were pretty slow and this is a book about sixty eight campaign and sixty nine there after not say they were victims as gemma i was raised question robin seems like this they could just lying on mats a great respect i think

the resolution does not i don't think the resolution is an extent you election in nineteen seventy two i am not any campaigns with the seed that were relevant to the selection cameras around their nineteenth in our campaigns i don't think that reads nineteen fifty i think in a lot of what you it will get raises election and again that was nineteen eighty nine

we can go back down through stephen thompson who collected in nineteen sixty eight and they will i know so it's not like you know what do you see the nineteen sixteen mom would be as chairman usually one of those information as requested as i understand it is

o'rourke up a mile fence and move on this is that we have no jurisdiction to investigate anything negative campaign funk flow we do and you had access it's what i suppose we would call limited access i can go in and look at records but i can't copy i can't take notes and to take them from the room about two and a half weeks

well i had some knowledge excuse me i did not i did not have custody of my records at that time it might as tv seized on the thirtieth of april so that then i was subject to the limitations which were then imposed by the osce a counselor from from that day forward i i literally physically gave a palestinian state now based on the president's statement concerning our efforts to get what might be relevant documents that are not provided that privilege as for specifically and specifically would you be willing to assist the committee an identifying sort of your records the lighthouse which we might feel necessary to restore a description i was just a visitor i wanna take council on that the forests are

now have you prior to the testimony before this committee to discuss her testimony discussed my testimony when they never knew how i was going to answer questions about how we discuss the subject matter are expensive but i've not discuss protest the subject matter of your testimony is the subject matter of my answers the subject matter that's at issue here i have discussed both during themselves may i ask mr that's right was pursuing individual state several weeks ago

i've not seen him to consult sense that except for perhaps until twenty thirty minutes max my opening statement in this matter was for prayer personally and without any consultation mr collins i assume is was because i certainly not a consultation i have spent virtually every day since my generation to wait to have weeks in attempting to get straight days places that person's presence subject matters cover and go back into the white house records and then take a look at my records to try to refresh my recollection as the ones taking place in that immigrants from time to time firing his departure of all i have discussed aspect of this map certainly not in terms of testimony only in terms of what actually took place and that researcher why i take it

those negatives that was in anticipation of what we're in which is not that you're not going girl and now the money i mean he was is in complete accord with pollen when he appears before this committee and that there exists no conflict between both the remark of events this committee has covered well under those circumstances may i asked them how it's possible that your vote being represented by the same journey isn't this a potential conflict of interest in the event that was to homeless agrees with your

recollection of events yeah i may i answer that question there is a potential nominee i don't know you suggested i'm involving matter where i think the regular clients is the same as to suggest that may have that sensitive that i'm getting some policy where every review was responsible a question fb

freak is bleak i mean you know fb