1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-10-11; Part 4 of 5

it's b in from time to time and i would say we're friends as well or so says our revolution doesn't permit us to really go into other campaigns over my conservative campaign but knowing what they said during a campaign including the senate campaign it was other things that i showed you and me i'm genuinely is that it's a witch mr grady has identified with his handiwork are would you say are actor as these things is right at the top that with activities no i would not and will not remotely of the vote the conservative well these activities that would not mean that that fact that will in the first place is a whole lot of the

humor in the second place so these are serious just allegations with respect to other candidates so on a good august that's functionally in campaigns is to distill news to restore sometimes i needed those signs of your whole campaign already aviation deception on the contrary you know it was quicker to claim credit for the things you didn't know that because that was an important part of the activity he never deceived lawyer was doing that was done in new hampshire which you know i thought they got it done for us and he says he did not about it seems to me a year perfect example in the video

well we hear about and so these you did feel gentler maybe but those new hampshire was that in the in new hampshire winning candidate files for the presidential primary the governor sponsors at a sort of a coffee and cake reception in the statehouse after the candidate as well as papers and that was at a mosque he went up there in january nineteen seventy two at this reception and as the guests finished her coffee they all discovered that under underneath of coffee as it turned out the cups pasted on the bottom looking up it was a replica of the mcgovern campaign button now that doesn't get into a league of some of the things we've been talking about here but it is in my view a friend about a range of the day kept it operational and i read like all the bit that afternoon on the civilian who was the

motorcycle was the thought that in fact five iv and mcgovern campaign and the seventy two campaign is her late nineteen seventy one years and the remainder of the campaign i think until around the spring of seventy two about a particular activity recommended which them i usually get something far as i know it damages reputation to say so but because of the reason why we're going in a political campaign on projects that are considered straight he's the research men is a good use of the president did some research for is in new york and they sent me to camp and compiling some of material from other newspapers and other sources on the maryland zoo he'd come up with a pickup type trip in nineteen seventy two and that we weren't able to do it because we didn't have the money and i couldn't convince other people in the campaign sometimes there's an excellent job and the

number of republican contenders have a big barbecue <unk> cleanser the years to propose to have put two trucks here's one of rage chuck and the other a simple white palette up with the spanish words for mexican laundry painted on the side of the months of lawyers to check with me what the precise language would be but there was in the crossfire is a summit on sweden's parliament look at it now there's a way to testify very recently for his activities as a infiltrator and this a campaign muskie's campaign wisconsin his campaign sign for his campaign is among them california some of allen's

campaign that audience out of balance in the democratic convention and indicated that he has and there he was workers in fact actually set in which is the center of government and this week on the evening of a california bungalow second watch tv with them did you come across from me michael and why i have no recollection of their meeting and i saw on television last night and that he did not seem familiar to me in any way i don't recall ever meeting on the other hand people are campaign have told me that he was viewed as a long pier to sit at a desk on the sixteenth floor looked older alan clear people who were going on the sixteenth floor of a seventeen floors where senator mcgovern was where the campaign the nerve center was and i believe that he was sitting there in which

case i probably saw him four five times a day but i don't remember ever having a conversation with them beyond the rights of exchanging pleasantries but that's part of it that campaigns that members that and change sometimes getting access to certain quarters only a few people have it was a special moment the secret service issued to have seven or eight staff people each campaign was a white guy that was read before the convention a wide afterward said nineteen seventy two step i know you don't have one well it was very scary yoder oil beyond earth having a control point where we knew was coming up to the seventy four beyond that people could to roam around and it

or persons will be to receive one of this is that gardens of the ones that inaction is secure areas while the procedure on the step before the beginning of the state we had a man named anthony marshall ur rehman security at the hotel for us into probably the volunteers to sit at the desk and probably do a few other things to maintain or some order but actually care about what one of all sixty four and we have that control point where i would assume that he would pass out the ones that about anybody or just people worry that was that people were king for a question about probably gotten access to the six people that he could not ok and i'm quite sure that i don't spend that monday evening with the senator mcgovern the senate and the governor's already eaten cinnamon so i was ready to record this morning in a sworn affidavit that he doesn't ever

seen a lion and denied ever having committed that room on occasion delivered a message or something like that but beyond that i find that also state of it was in milwaukee to human and so the mcgovern headquarters in milwaukee and he observed the governors preparing coastal areas such as we wanted leader not a crybaby another type of anti masking posters and that they were anti mosque in march and it also noticed that there were rescue workers who have demonstrated against the garment workers were demonstrating against so mirsky an esl notice that that there were immigrant workers who sort of semi see signs in the milwaukee area it was in california now it had the right here as a witness i'll give you that information and you

never actually hurt his testimony it made any effort to check to see whether or not there is anti globalization of that the mcgovern headquarters in milwaukee i have to talk to working for korea was the regular campaign in wisconsin of course neither he nor i can say for sure what went on in every winner and headquarters in that state in any given time he does say the yale student coordinator that sen ernst mcmahon oysters he was working with was not in the milwaukee airport he spent his time in the madison and oakland other places where there was published about that this is possible that sort of thing happened all the doubters wrong i find it very improbable and so his recording because at that point we did not feel were running against senator muskie or paulson only a delegate count we had indicated that that that's what it was a two man race for the nomination senator mcgovern and senator humphrey

we feel free we were anxious to keep him in the race but the mcgovern people would have done anything and any musty nature in wisconsin in addition which a part is a rich stearns is tested but this morning indicated to us that the strategy senator mcgovern had fallen from the beginning in new hampshire was correct which was that he should resolutely refrain in social his campaign people refrained from attacking any other candidate it was perceived as a possible candidate i am as diverse as the mechanism will begin in buchanan in the middle of the opera the agency

over the period of months with my kids we and these months of food before it's actually made that a couple weeks we had testimony about soulful tracks political espionage from those witnesses that go run again from having certain person say well you're a meeting place for questions to be our candidate and you were using stink bombs to infiltrate and to doing the kind of things that i referred to these exhibits that that's a great testified engage them i had committed some time with us and eight presidential campaign as we begin to look at this way that it which unfortunately it is that was

wrong to know what you know it is an animal activity if we get your recommendations is true if we were to consider looking at campaign activity for the purpose of the legislation or recommending culture that where you would draw a line and ends up in this book on the infamous i think it hinges on the question of deception i think almost anything goes permissible if he's identified as food source in other words a failure so mcgovern supporter wants to go a musky rally where there will be question question period and ask the hard questions are mostly i see i see nothing objectionable about that if on the other hand you secretly imagines a border posing as sam mcgovern supporter of recent border in order not only to ask a question of the candidate would doom best the candidate is allegedly supporting that something else again i think your question

goes to work goes to one of perception i think now the most damaging thing in the political arena is if we come to believe that a piece of literature identified as coming from one candidate in fact is not comparable come from somebody else was and nothing will be believable every candidate makes a statement on an issue or will not be able to know whether and ed made that statement stands behind its supported libya's literature comes out as a musky for president or our us on so for senator that is india where it's coming from and if we can no longer believe that and then i think the process has been perhaps irreparably damaged i would hope that there could be legislation proposed here that would outlaw that kind mr mack it is reception and representation of the one who was in fact working for the cabinet where he is the factors are here to get that information

if they had a free election system and those who have expressed their positions american politics in a free society we call our american free society for any political party will be the democratic party republican party too deceptive practices that manipulate no i don't believe there is no place for ugly that has not until nineteen seventy two until election campaign in nineteen seventy two but he plays for help that it's existed but now we know it can be done and i must say that i heard mr buckley tested by a couple of days ago that he didn't think there was a crime of all you know taking documents from one candidate under the guise of working foreman being a messenger photographing them and turning them over to the other candidate there's not a

little bit of a disney showed that the man that goes to work in a presidential campaign claims to be supporting the candidate who's working for secretly being paid by somebody else it also ought to be a law to be legal in the state that is put out on the center actually stationary when in fact it's a statement of those underwater or more likely president why illegal as well the question of sanctions i would hope that the community's attention to the question of sanctions an electorate where i haven't given a great deal of thought that it seems to me that the death penalty for example for this kind of illegal behavior were jamaican analogy in sports or failure the fighter jets will about the route and he could win the fight only by a winning a majority around

a serious penalty maybe candidate loses that state maybe is that he's ineligible eligible to her to be on the bat i don't know i'm just throwing these out i don't others suggest for a minute that they're reasonable solution and constitutional law that seems to me that if the penalty what in that direction rather than saying you got to pay a five hundred dollars or that candidate can see you in five years later find that your judgment proof and not collect anything or or it's a misdemeanor and you may have to work what they're finding are beyond probation or whatever i don't think that's enough i think we have to look at different kinds of families because they're dealing with a fundamental connected we didn't i at the time the issue for their specific recommendation but i think that your experience and researcher president though it would be very helpful to the committee if you would take a little about these things and has a recommendation

divides that the committee we would appreciate them i think so that became the recommendation of be workable impacted a lot of bad ones and not theoretical ones i think coming from a person who was back then a campaign and was an epic i think perhaps we're overwhelmed to find that a much more useful recommendation to chairman i have no further questions and a moment we will be back with fred thompson's questions about what kind of political intelligence mcgovern forces had gathered public television coverage of the senate hearings will continue after station identification on average coverage of their hearings as being broadcast as a public service where local public television station this is pbs public broadcasting service the

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bill and that continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on

presidential campaign activities here again and by correspondent jim webb as a drawback to the hearing's witnesses george mcgovern's campaign director opinion is not really enforce the many votes would cause disruption in the opposing camps and cause the salmon discord among the various democratic candidates substantially corrected do is there not an inherent efforts obama campaign among the democratic candidates themselves to reassert this harmony among the various candidates opposing abortion now if i understand your question correctly came across over that like you get as a measure of important myself rio mr a century after the convention

very briefly and so the next morning mr mankiewicz and me said we should move the story and whatever mysterious ways stories are movies that the muskie campaign is urging committed mcgovern supporter switched must be stopped he would have for upper is being uses the vote and to encourage liberals to earn the most the candidates we should other words gabler is a gas mask in such words to increase country's determination and this version of mastery of the recall quan it wasn't you i don't recall a memorandum but i recall that

feeling of that discussion is what i see regular different snare jamie is too when i see that i see that with thousand as a year as the driving a little actual wage and gary hart raise rather than a year i think what he was saying was that so we must use people were at that time it was really our valley forge where the end of december her supporters were bilingual and and a great many of them to begin with listener muskie was doing another effectively at that time was so suggesting do people could be the nominee that he was the ultimate but a rally around and not be divided between humans are what are saying was let's do

it users which is the law there really was let's get the proposition across some out of the public that we know which is the mosque is kind of trying to do this when in fact they're still a contest going on we should keep the division between the bricks were the muslims were the question the personnel with billions of double sexual deviation really has to their issues on the position

with what people get paid for that was due to the actual operational global campaign in and stories that there is an increase i'm renee montagne oh well it's unquestionably a mixed next questioner there are all kinds of reasons but i think they the anger and the rancor and the bitterness is far stronger this year than it ever been and i think it is at least in large part attributable to lose that kind of campaign yes it is it's called perfectly clear nixon from whittier watergate the matters concerning the significance of the summer gardening and neo an

imam yes now the major emphasis placed there was on this larger question of the glitch there is this kind of activity taking place in other campaigns and you know our previous campaigns of sixty eight sixty four sixty and i get fifty six all about the presidential campaign but that six year on summer nineteen fifty two little of the fun for example of that is a matter of a comparison that is the unique fact of the situation the fact of the of this agreement that the activities the new coating the curtain

you know i was talking i had my discussion of people in other campaigns i was talking more about the more things that we've heard about before this committee and wiretapping replacing of spies that sort of thing i asked the campaign managers at you if you had the guaranteed opportunity without any fear of detection having a follow on electronic surveillance and wiretaps on everything the opposing candidate and its headquarters were doing every day plus a few well trained pilots heard every headquarters that would you do it without exception else said no it would not i agree

the characters did republican or democratic candidate testimony we discuss their idea i discussed that go with the mystery mr feldman who's chairman of that group in nineteen sixty four campaign that or the other guest is named for are really a sort of immediate issues group the function of that group was to find out when senator goldwater where you had just said it was about a saint and provide service all in those days didn't have that word with

that information with which answer and preferably on the scene preferably before he spoke about her that i'm also sending volunteers over to pick up copyrights copies of the speeches and press releases and the schedules that you know i don't mean that in nineteen fifty six he arranged with his counterpart at the democratic campaign whose change schedules a speech actually wouldn't be bothered sending volunteers or to become a cliff right to comment on the practice of football coaches have in changing the foam the problems of the wreck either the reason or with president johnson told him that the massive intervention activate mammoth elected and their social lives

that announcement though some question is whether that information was acclaimed you mentioned that you were concerned so it will appoint a manager attention to what was a new hampshire primary i believe it was a world where i was the manager the muskie campaign called me and told me about khalifa might get a copy of it and said that he thought this is a very bad thing which should have done it and i so it looks as well well if you look at other lethal

but not to do it as the same as the same cervical which came out for i think the the true responsibility now senator mccain he did not only come out in june of nineteen seventy two on her perhaps earlier than that a slightly earlier at the time were speaking out he had not become a supporter of senator mcgovern said did not do so until i think after wisconsin so email or other small contribution early in the campaign and until smooth making a similar contradiction of three other candidate this alone one point for the purpose i think of the television broadcast recruited and then he made a major contribution over the late spring and summer and that

within their own as character oh yes i get to the front of those meetings and then this morning he we eat as lindsay weir together he provided his home occasionally as a meeting of representatives from those campaigns which we always conflict and that because we had i hope that eventually support us and to make a substantial contribution but right at home that i know of for that to me during that time you read that the piece of paper that has all of the latin he was your characterizations cars i would argue with that characterization

fb the competition that there had been discussion or plan at one point the campaign to planners her aboard the campaign plane late in the campaign in the flotilla japan remain the october i believe there was at a proposal not a spy but a proposal by would be a spy to take on that activity a young journalist who had some credentials and i think that goes not to me but i believe to work and then die he would go on the line and keep his ears open to be could pick up any of that kind of gaffes and statements that were made in nineteen sixty eight i think he wanted us to pay these pensions

and we turned down your attention i think of and i get it i may be wrong about this but i think van dyke and anna coleman was a finance chairman met with me and described the possibility senators offered them eight and we decided for a variety of reasons not to travel possible wofford been made you know i think everyone's disposition was to turn down i think are billions of reasons for free trade down and i'm not sure how i know in my daily work force in the campaign if your business model know you know whether or not the situation reached the point where

most of them came for my understanding was that he had credentials well i so that would've been sufficient the enemy he was in fact representative couple of publications and that he felt that the scope of his vision of america what was the proposal that you find out what a good reporter becky is over the years and got a thing that the verge of them provided a window jack lew has proposed the pittsburgh investigator

us border he was employed <unk> campaign that i'm a lazy on the date of direct financial records and show and i would think oh that's mid august and worked until a little october when he had ran out of money or at least indicated that maybe we made our last barrel to me there's littler investigation laureate case i was traveling with senator mccain in washington and the water is job was going to keep this update on the troop for the press but also try to stay a little bit ahead of it orders and was able to find the time to tell stories that were going to appear were about to appear on in our ability to undergo an update on watergate good day by day in addition the halls

executive committee or whatever it was it is to be wholly religious fanatics to let us know of which ones of the word trouble with the government which was really an aspect of trouble with the government he did that by a consoling public record your justice department ftc and elsewhere jobs in a man had a couple other the things that he undertook from time to time in reporting in a war you need to know about because it seemed to me frankly ernest thompson that that was the reason they were democrats for next so yes generations well isn't an assumption we do some tax

trouble that sort of thing in connection that were in the country according to figures in one well i'm a sizable number of democrats voted for next the number that were members of that organization no idea about non candidate partly was important now than any information on him no more nineteen nineties they use a process of moving the republican party in any service sector treasuries and the sport there's a list of twenty or thirty the midterm there are certain

material of the presidents panel building that organization that was really an organization also remembers the day the curator of either did himself or headed up a small force of volunteers who would monitor the lists of contributors the election campaign would do with the public from time to time i began to comply with the april seven financing act who run those names against the decision to price commissioned a sea of an intimate received favorable consideration we found out something clemens with information i'm not sure whether he overlooked any information from the public records of the system firemen or not the future of the

way it is as you recall the system hospitable a campaign that when the ministrations james hunter you like nineteen seventy two at liberty completely back the night but it's a plausible i don't only did a republican measure both conventions you've listened as they rebuild reliable source which a handsome some funny stories

or do you election officials following the other candidates correcting what the candidate believes to be errors among troops from city to city and that says we did not because the other candidates didn't go around and campaign there was no one to follow in that decision or a virtue of our wealth of information on people in the administration could you be more explicit founding president for example any information concerning any of these people with likeability song so what would you know i think only in respect to their participation we're going to the extent of their participation in the water

it would fail and you did not have to be you know i don't know where it is and if you still want that i believe i can for you today hearings we've heard some of the witnesses say in an extraordinary manner and the prayers in order now can you get reactions tell us whether it is general

or whether it is prevalent in every election and if not why do you think so i think those statements of cover ups are i think they're great energy and i think if we come out of these hearings in los angeles the american people need to sort of thing is politics as usual the country will suffer more than anybody else does and i know we didn't i don't know any other campaign appeared in the course of my year talking to people in other presidential campaigns i'm convinced that it is all in the nixon campaign i mean again these instances of very isolated and when they do occur we uncover them referring to quite a few instances in the last ten twelve years in state local and then

national campaigns but would you agree with me that this is the first time that dad this kind of an approach to its approach it has been then under the auspices of a presidential campaign structure with the possible exception of the nineteen sixty eight i'm not convinced about nineteen sixty eight but certainly in general yes i would agree with that that i would say that that this was brought in the nineteen sixty eight years i think this is a video doesn't come out certainly is totally unprecedented as far as many of the activities are concerned just on the mcgovern campaign and it may be that many of the things that

we now categorized as a dirty tricks that were done by freelancer people buy number of groups that i guess well it's a political campaign there's a reasonable presumption the nixon campaign i spoke at the event in new hampshire there were i would say we have the tooling that twenty thirty forty cases throughout the campaign rally in the spring but also in the fall when people were in charge of mcgovern campaign events would be called hold on whoever was calling was from the mcgovern campaign and believe that was not gonna take place there is not common or changing the date of the time when in fact that was not the case as all of that would be the delay preparations for the meeting for a day or so that'd be put back on what we have alice lived in

los angeles for example or just prior to a big rally at a sports arena every radio station in town once called about five o'clock that evening by someone purporting to be from mcgovern press others announcing that he'd been cancelled the cancellation was then put out all radio stations and that cost us a full time where you're able to correct it correct the report a lot of examples of that there are a lot of examples of traditional democratic leaders and labor people being found embarrassing times with insulting messages being told to be a certain meeting which should never took place and i think particularly in new jersey a couple of times and little people in the jersey city and i believe in in particular in the morning cold opens the mcgovern coordinator calling an order to be in a median age of course of that contributed to a lot of the bitterness of the democratic party as

well foreign secretary as a speaker mr meaney was told that he was not their arsenal is gary hart senator mcgovern's campaign manager says to me you know what's good for when your lover it did not go better relations between khamenei and senate are an indian american life of a feeling about this day or i believe it was about three or four days later because at that time we were trying to set up such a meeting and where you go well i was told about it from i believe a year columnist two reports generally on labor matters and he called and said that was to me was yours is called a maiden or tension out

meeting with senator mcgovern was angry and eight said that he had not made such a colony been out of the city and that echols was to be made there were to tell our estimate secretariat nominee because we tried to make it clear that we have now but i think they believe that you know and certainly there was no evidence in the record at that time indicate that anybody else was doing that selectively recall what only one day in late september audibly and asked me if i had called in the night before and i said no i have not and he then proceeded to tell me which is called someone had fun pretending to be me and disgust i said no this person pretending to be me said you know what we have this arrangement where thirty eight mcgovern it's eighty percent of the news

coverage and nixon gets twenty percent and i just wanna tell it's going fine but the press is starting to notice that neither shift about a little i think that one got a gold suspicious he got angry and color and he said david that connection or maybe a radical design but the color seem to know my schedule because you mentioned that i was going to be a new or whatever that was what indeed we were going to be in the air so the earliest that arab possibility i've never been able to understand the reason for that except possibly in the hopes that maybe mr cronkite and i would think there was humor involved in life say something to suggest that there was a generation of the call taking my letters in the summer ms williams means committee

you know i remembered that committee mr mabey runs and it is a committee that the buildings all have publicly over the assassination robert kennedy and i found it difficult to believe that without some inducement proven one of them provided jessica may i have a landmine some time before that it was not not in this committee yes it was what

about a demonstration in the lobby and i thought at the time there was something wrong with law be filled up with the number of people dressed in what used to be a bizarre manner even for miami beach they had a number of well it seemed to me and common complaints against senator mcgovern some of them wanted to know why stewart mott who have a lot of general motors stock was supporting senator mcgovern and general motors was committing some terrible act somewhere in the world for their words were not grateful audience seemed to me to be provoking a yeah a gauntlet with the police i spoke during that day to achieve for pomeranz in miami beach police department told him that under any circumstances we did not want a confrontation with

police hotel workers wanted only to get those people out of there were willing to call the police to do so i finally went out on top of the video and senator mcgovern would come and ultimately even if it finally what struck me at the time that they were not hippies with people just like it was just in miami beach what is the situation i'm not prepared to say that any or all of our more stimulated by the opposition they lived and certainly are we download the attacker and there were a number of those seem to be an extraordinary number of people showing up to meetings with a sign saying gays for mcgovern and

in general i think there probably was an attempt to make it seem that the mcgovern campaign and an unusual number of bizarre people are actually honest reporters testimony here that it was mr olson higher pickett to wear designer clothing and great i'm not in front of the white house with a mcgovern but i would imagine that that was duplicated at various times around the country you have to make and that the government government there was so there was a break in in the ohio headquarters a reptile in the ceiling was had been tampered with leading the people or believe in an attempt to make the place a bug there were some americans various headquarters around the country but some under suspicious circumstances that you see at the time that we didn't have the information that we

have now that this was partly a motivation family about the day in california in california served with him in effect and going after them to find out their preferences rating them on a scale of one to five of how they felt about senator mcgovern and then going out and pulling an option day i think we got it we look there was an adventure by that technique that's a small state with a democratic voters in california a couple million was truman decided that with the aid of a computer you'd be able to do the same thing in egypt for democratic candidates and through our

volunteers and we had to call him a computer list the name address phone number age race sex occupation and we whether they favored senator mcgovern were leaning toward him were undecided or leaning against him or were opposed to a one two three four and five we use that list on primary day to pull out the people we thought would be a march or worse on sightings of the video in the campaign there was a lot and delivered mail and the medicines especially fun so you know just a few months ago

and his associate whether they deliberately years advertisers during the primary and i don't know what i do know that after the primary mr camargo was not in control of a computerized list of every democrat in the state a california with his preferences as to senator mcgovern and california if you don't get the most of a substantial portion of democrats and your republican candidate will carry the state and i believe quite firmly that the possession of that list and the ability to mail directly through the floors and five they were all major difference in california in november i like that question

and specifically as i recall in testimony given before the canadian and in inquiries which i made of the internal security division of the justice department i think the committee and i were led to believe that the information given by the internal security division or five minutes and according to the committee to reelect president also made available you come into a relationship veteran campaign and the idea that a solicitor at the time i tried to get a statement out to the load that was full time to see that information from my internal security division or anywhere else in the justice over the mayor smitherman except his signature jessica

jones would you say that the record is quite adequate as a place to draw the line as to what to investigate as far as you're going to survive an event and the concerts those investigations i go beyond that senators and only question of examining public record but also acting in a campaign in an

open manner that is making no attempt to conceal we are from your work i think a little more serious question even though many are pouring through trash for example or checking out a candidate's personal habits which i agree is a dangerous even more dangerous than that is this earth a practice of putting out statements in the name a one candidate when in fact they're paid for in front of another i think that you have a very sophisticated washington is the united states as the question as to whether or not the new white house line on the personal lives of politicians were justified

at the edge of the american people came back at three percent to eight percent maybe some people like some people might be trying to justify that were committed and as usual the american border once i noticed that finding center with a considerable own gratification as well i have one more question and in the course of the campaign conversations between me and became known

very quickly under circumstances indicated to me that somebody else must've been listening because they're not matter to the listener governor i would be at the top most of the country it's they actually take it is that i believe that a great testimony of years to suggest that the cooking oil ms bee fb