Formosa and Chiang Kai-shek's Dream

The following program is from N-E-T, the National Educational Television Network. The United Nations is the organization with powers of decision, which will strongly affect the future of Formosa and nationalist China. This is James Fleming at the UN, speaking for National Educational Television. The recent vote to decide Chinese representation at the United Nations was close, 47-47 with 20 abstentions. It is possible that in the next assembly the vote may go against the nationalists and their chief supporter, the United States. With this vote, whatever it may be, cannot change a de facto situation that has existed for 16 years and will probably continue to exist. There are two China's.

One is Formosa, the other is on the mainland. The film we are about to see is about the smaller China, nationalist China, and comes to us from the Hong Kong Bureau of ZDF, a West German television network. Their cameraman were given freedom to roam throughout Formosa and the Pescadores, the islands just off the mainland. After the film, we shall go inside the United Nations to interview two men who are highly qualified to discuss the future of Formosa and who will comment as well on this film report. They are UN Ambassador from Formosa, Ambassador Yu Chia, and Mr. Roger Hilsman, he's the former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for far eastern affairs and now Professor of Government at Columbia University. They are in Taipei, the capital of the Republic of China, also called nationalist China,

or Formosa, or Taiwan. The island is about as big as Switzerland, with 12 million inhabitants. On Formosa, there is peace, order, and prosperity. There radically, a civil war has been raging from this island for the last 15 years. That is theory. The nationalists have lost the civil war against the Communists. They know it, but they won't admit it. The people on Formosa know it, but they don't dare say it. The civil war is now a great verbal war, and the Communists on the mainland retaliate in time. Why isn't there war? The answer lies with American power. The U.S. Seventh Fleet is the sword which lies between the two contestants. American strength maintains the Chinese peace. The United States has given Formosa weapons and economic help. Thousands of dollars per capita.

Soon the economic aid will be stopped because it becomes superfluous. Formosa can look after itself. The economy is financially sound. The export surplus grows each year. 1964, Formosa had $250 million in the bank. The Communists may have achieved some economic success on the Chinese mainland. The degree of that success is questionable. What is not questionable is this fact, that the highest living standards in Asia belong to those countries which are the most sharply anti-communist. These countries which are most closely allied to America, Japan, is Asia's outstanding economic power, after her come Formosa, Thailand, Hong Kong, and Malaysia. The goods in these shops may seem modest to Americans, but for the red Chinese, for the Indonesian, the Indian, the Laotian, the Burmese, this to pop on store would be

a dream. The average income in Formosa is $125 per year, not a high fee. But it is five times as much as that of India, many times more than red channels. And the prices are low. In glasses, wristwatches, bicycles, radios, sewing machines are five greatly desired goods in Asia. In Formosa, these luxuries are available and then so. Politically and intellectually, nationalist China is far from the democracy. The group of military and political exiles who run it were defeated in 1949 by the Communist

back on the mainland. They lost because of Communist power, their own mistakes, their own inadequacies. The man at the head is Generalissimo Shon Kai-shek, everything revolves around him. For 40 years, the attention of China and the world has been concentrated on Cheng. He is now 78 years old, his wife is 64. Few married couples in China or any other country have led longer or more eventful lives together. But the length of their performance on the great stage has petrified the image, so that too many they now seem as lifeless monuments, but they are here and still very much alive. Everything about them is on an heroic scale. Their rise, their failures, their misdeeds, their behavior in adversity.

They allowed their people to be swallowed up in the red flood, but they still hoped that the flood can not only be stopped for it has been stopped, but turned back. Now, Mao Zedong has the big bomb, starvation in Mao's country is over. President Johnson does not want the war with red China, neither did President Kennedy or President Eisenhower. The dream of recovering the mainland by force has faded with the years. But the generalissimo and madam Cheng hold their speck of island with its 12 million inhabitants, their exile home with a firm and sovereign grip. And they hold the flag high. But the annual state parade, the 600,000 man army shows its great strength. Their leader whips their emotions with the words, soon we shall go forward to final victory.

Soon the communist scum will break down. Soon, it's already 16 years. Recomparing the mainland is no mean trick. The red Chinese have firm political control. They have an inexhaustible supply of men, and now they have the bomb. How do you explain all this to young officers? The anti-communist teacher is an educated man, a professor of philosophy. He has dissected and packaged the theory and practice of his communist opponents. He has logically deduced the coming down fall of the king. The nationalists swim naked through the water, they go barefoot on land. The nationalist frogmen practice for a future attack.

But this is not enough for invasion. An invasion needs ship supplies, air transport. U.S. officers observe the maneuvers. America supplies instructors and modern weapons, supports and protects the nationalist Chinese army, but not for attack, only for defense. These starfighter jets are strong enough to stop any attack from Mao's old Soviet bombers. The nationalists have some of the best pilots in the world. They are always on the alert, always in touch with units of the U.S. Seventh Fleet.

But not for the purpose of attack, only for defense. America gives the nationalists Nike Hercules defense missiles as well, but not for attack, only for defense. Chiang Kai-shek's own fleet is too small for an invasion, and the United States does not support its expansion. The landing craft lie there rust away.

Diplomatically too, Chiang Kai-shek is running into difficulty. More and more countries are breaking off their relations with Formosa and sending their ambassadors to Peking. Above all, Formosa is fighting bitterly to maintain its diplomatic recognition with African states. The recent UN vote on Red China's admission to the world body showed 47 in favor, 47 opposed, 20 abstentions. Africa has the balance of power in the United Nations. So Formosa is extending help to the developing countries of Africa. Many Africans come to Formosa. They can learn a great deal from the nationalist Chinese, above all, in agriculture.

The farmers of Formosa are among the best in the world. For 50 years from 1895 to 1945, Japan was the island's colonial ruler. Japan needed food shops from its Chinese colony and instructed Formosa's farmers in modern techniques. The grey water buffalo, the ancient companion of every farmer in Asia, plods along beside the mechanical plow, the mechanical buffalo as it's called. Today, Formosa farmers use fertilizers, tractors, bulldozers. They are more modern than any country in Asia, except Japan. Life is good in the village. Formosons have long since emerged from the one crop rice economy common to many Asian

nations. A climate, the soil, the irrigation are good. One is diversified. The children are as pretty as the apples. The markets are filled with fresh vegetables, appetizing fruits. A symbol of progress is the three-wheeled motor car. It takes the place of the single mule found in most Asian countries. The people love these machines and they carry the greatest variety of goods and people.

Formosa no longer has a peasant population in which each individual looks as if he carries the weight of centuries of suffering. Three-wheelers give them mobility, they rattle over the roads by the thousands. But everywhere, at the side of the road, there are the anti-aircraft guns. The farmer and his three-wheeler and the wristwatch and the anti-aircraft guns. That is Formosa. His tongue's regime can be judged by the Formoson farmer, then we can say the regime is a good one. The farmer does not have the freedoms of the Democratic West, but he has his own land. On that land he is free.

In Asia, that's saying a good deal. If the guns were somewhere else, we might imagine ourselves in ancient China. The delicate beauty seems an ideal subject for a master Chinese painter with his careful brushstrokes.

Formosa has made great strides toward full industrialization in recent years with the help of America. As an agriculture, the nationalists have been able to build on foundations laid by Japan in its half-century of occupation. Formoson has tripled since 1950. The yearly rate of economic growth is an outstanding seven percent. The percentage compares favorably with West Germany's high economic growth rate in Europe. Formosa's population growth is about three and one half percent annually. So the increasing standard of living is only moderately challenged by the birth rate. One power in Formosa is cheaper than Japan, workers are just as good, and generally just is well-trained. But Formosa is small, its domestic market is limited, exports are increasing rapidly, but Formosa must stand in the shadow of the Japanese giant, thus there is a residue of unemployed.

Almost half the population consists of students and children. There are far too many students. They come to the university in great numbers, but many drop out along the way. There is no great mineral wealth, but heavy industry has come to Formosa. The production of electricity has increased and in Cauchon, a factory produces aluminum. Some 14,000 factories have been created since 1950. Machinery, electrical instruments, and medicines are manufactured domestically. Automobiles are assembled from imported parts. Last year for the first time, the total value of manufacturers surpassed that of agriculture. Formosa is no longer an underdeveloped country. The government invites far an investment, it is liberal toward private enterprise.

However, in a semi-socialistic manner, it retains control of numerous key industrial plants. It exercises all the management functions which are common in the police or communist state. America has been pressuring the government to loosen this control. The most important trade partners of Formosa are Japan and the United States. Then comes Korea, Hong Kong, and South Vietnam. The best customer in Europe is West Germany, which buys one fourth of the canned fruit produced in Formosa. America buys many thousands of cans of pineapple packaged in this factory. The factory is modern and the food is thoroughly appetizing.

Managing director is Mr. Yung Kao Hong. His personal history is typical of that of many industry leaders in Formosa. Yung Kao Hong is a Formosa. He does not belong to the ruling Chinese class, which after the war came over with a Chiang Kai-shek from the mainland and took all the best jobs. He comes from those who in 1949 were for a while shamefully oppressed. Yung Kao Hong's family owned larger states. He was a landlord. Chiang Kai-shek's officials nationalize nearly all his land. In return, they gave him shares in a projected pineapple factory. At the time, the pineapple factory did not exist.

Today it is flourishing, built up with loans and managerial skill. Yung Kao Hong is a shareholder and its director. He's doing well. He has long since become reconciled to the change. Yung Kao Hong rarely goes to the village of his fathers. For him, it is a memory. The land once belonged to him and to his brothers. This land, as far as the eye can see, now it belongs to small farmers. The old mansion is empty, used off and on as a community center. Today he's the general manager of the factory, Yung Kao Hong is not sentimental.

In the long run, he is profited from the Nationalist Chinese Land Reform program. This calculated and peaceful revolution. Land Reform has improved the life of the peasants, yet it has not eliminated an educated minority of the well to do. There's less intentions between Formosans and their nationalist Chinese rulers. In 1953, the government forced the great landowners to sell all their land to the tenants at the price of two and a half years harvests, a cheap price in the Orient and a very ingenious plan. The state compensated the landowners with stocks and bonds. Ninety percent of the agricultural land in Formosa belongs to those who work at themselves. Members have doubled in the last ten years. One wonders what might have happened if Chiang Kai-shek and his Gomintang government had carried through the same Land Reform program 20 years ago on the mainland.

But on the mainland, many in the Chiang Kai-shek regime were landowners themselves. In Formosa, they gave away other people's land, the land of the native landlords. It's easier than giving away your own. Today, Land Reform is a great success. The price of cardiac shan, though, remains the bitter rice of exile. The two million exiles from the mainland have, after years of repression, made the ten million Formosans richer. The mainland Chinese control the power. They command the military, the police, and in the villages. It is the police who have the last word. A thick net of bureaucracy overlays the island's stifling individual initiative. The army of officials are badly paid, somewhat corrupt, lazy, and disorganized. The natives have been able to work themselves up into the ranks of administration.

The free and fair elections exist for district and community councils. A Formosan, Fao Yushu, an able administrator, was elected mayor of Taipei. He does not belong to the ruling Gomintang party. He represents, however, the present limits of political independence for Formosans. Formosas interior affairs are managed by a provincial government, a chief of the provincial government is nominated by Chiang Kai-shek, and is always one of his own comrades. Thus, the fiction is maintained that Formosan is only a small part of the still-existing total Chinese state. The idea that Formosa is part of the greater China, and that the nationalist-ar its rightful rulers is indoctrinated into the children of the native Formosans. They would probably rather be independent Formosans.

They aren't much interested in nationalist pretensions to all China, the Gomintang party, and the ideological heritage of its founder, Sunyat Sen. The youth movements are under the command of Chiang Kai-shek's eldest son, Chiang Ching Kuo, who hopes that his youth activities will give him a foundation of support so that he can inherit his father's regime. There is, at the least, religious tolerance in Formosa. The regime feels bound by old Chinese tradition. Chiang would like to lead the Formosans who have been somewhat influenced by the Japanese back to the ways of old China. His cultural policy seems unnecessarily conservative. Much that is new is avoided, for the simple reason that the Communists are taking such initiatives. The tourist is a beneficiary of Chiang's policy.

This is the old China, preserved as a wonderful relic from the past. From the mainland, Communists have altered everything by force and murder. There are many painters on the island, creative in both the traditional and the most modern styles. Lanin Ting is one of the great masters of Chinese art. These pictures hang in galleries throughout the world. Formosa has the best and most complete collections of Chinese art and historical documents in the world. They come originally from the Imperial Museums and Peking. Look, I check, took them with them when he fled the mainland. Here a famous calligraphist is at work.

The ability to write beautifully, still the notes, intellectual achievement. The masterpiece before us is a rendition of the Nationalist slogan, Re-Calcored the Fataland. The schoolchildren wrestled for years with the complicated brushwork of the Chinese script. Nothing has been ordered in the lettering since the great reform achieved by Emperor Ching-Chi Hong 2000 years ago. In 1911, the Socialist Revolutionary simplified the script. The simplification is being developed in Maoist People's Republic and has been raised to the status of law by the Communists. But Ching-Chi-Chi-Chi is a conservative. Simplification of the script is forbidden. Any book printed abroad in the so-called Communist lettering, irrespective of contents is held by the censors. So the schoolchildren have to learn in all 5,000 different characters. Today, what they write can hardly be read by Chinese compatriots on the mainland.

And this is a typewriter with 5,000 different characters, five banks of letters which have to be changed and inserted. Having a letter is a slow process. There's a need for well-educated secretaries. Any four motions in Chinese speak and write English, German, and other foreign languages. Most nations recognize either Communists or Nationalist China.

There are only a few states who've taken no position vis-a-vis the most populated nation on Earth who make no comments, do no business, and allow everything to drag. Among them are West Germany, Monaco, and Andorar. They talk neither with peaking nor with Taipei. There are good grounds for communication with one or the other, but to talk to neither is the graveyard of any independent foreign policy. The Chinese theater has an ancient tradition. This art is translated with brushstrokes and pathos into expressive Chinese Wagnerian operas. Stories are played over and over again, and become part of a permanent repertory. The most famous legend has the title, Do Not Forget.

We are in two. It is the story of a king in adversity, who just like General Cheng, has been driven into exile by his enemies to an outpost called Chu. Chu is even smaller than Formosa. But the king finally triumphs and recovers the empire. The people here in song, what can be done with the Roy Currie? The photons are away from the western world, who are likely to be worse. There's absolutely noWhatever, and the defenders are close.

We'll be very smiling. Boy, boy, boy, boy! Boy, boy, boy, boy, boy! Don't forget, we are in chuk. The legendary words were written personally by Chung on the peak of the embattled island of Camoy. This is his, and also America is best It is a front line against the mainland communists. Only a small, straight, six to ten miles wide separates the island from the People's Republic. For years, the Red Artillery plowed up the sand with hundreds of thousands of shells. The worst bombardment was in 1960. Since then, it's been quieter. The 50,000 inhabitants have repaired their houses. The 80,000 soldiers have gone underground in fortress chaos.

Now, Camoy is heavily fortified. Tremendous installations have been carved out of the rock. An underground auditorium is also a theater for the soldiers. It can hold a thousand men. The command post is hundreds of yards deep in rocks. The command post is hundreds of yards deep in rocks. Heavy guns and machine guns are positioned all over the island. The coast is mine. Camoy and the neighboring island of Matsu

are symbolic for Shanghai-shex regime. The islands are heavily fortified barriers that must be taken before Mount St. Tung can attack Formosa. National soldiers are young, disciplined, and in top physical shape. Their weapons are first raped. Their living quarters and rations are modest. They are not veterans of China's civil war who came over from the mainland with Shanghai-shex. Through the rank of Lieutenant, they are all Formosans who know the Chinese mainland only vicariously. The Chinese fatherland, which they are told must be reconquered, is not their native land. Life on Camoy and Matsu is dull, so morale is always a problem. But the soldiers are disciplined. On an afternoon-off duty, there's only one place to go, the city of Kinmen. Streets are thronged with khaki green uniforms,

and the shops, there's an abundance of food. Prices are cheap, the soldiers' modest pay goes far. These civilians are under military command. Working parties have to patch up the roofs time and again. For the last four years, since the last great bombardment, the war comes only every second day. Then the batteries on the mainland blast out a couple of dozen shells. Inside them, there's propaganda material. They inflict no damage, even the children are accustomed to it. The school khakiard is adorned with patriotic posters, such as this one, which says, careful the enemy is listing. There are always practice alarms. Damage caused by mainland action receives

compensation from Chiang Kai-shek, who also uses these islands as the subject of a powerful propaganda campaign. For political visitors who fly over from Formosa, come on and become both the fortress and the show place. One of the most popular tourist attractions is the release of balloons. Inside the balloons is a series of leaflets targeting the communists with slogans, such as Mount Satan is a lucky of the Russians. These performances are staged mainly for the benefit of the anti-communist overseas Chinese, who would as hoped return to their Chinese communities in Singapore or Hong Kong, and report on the cleverness superiority of the nationalist Chinese. The sniper troops are an especially successful propaganda company. They put on astonishingly diverse and highly amusing performances. Even the security officers like to see them photographed.

They shoot well. This is a demonstration of German Chinese friendship, and they certainly hit the target. privilege. God... God! God... The propaganda artillery has taken up its usual position on the most exposed tip of the island. At the moment, one can see and hear the mainland. Editors, announcers, and technicians sit in bomb proof shelters.

Dear brothers and sisters, says the announcer, tens of thousands of you have already fled from the Communist prison. Party officials are among them. Now they live with us. They are happy and prosperous. News, appeals, editorials. When the wind is favorable, a Communist loudspeaker answers recklessly from the mainland. So continues, a desperate and monotonous dialogue of a divided nation. Chinese on this side, Chinese on that. They are only separated by a few miles of water, but its water is sewn with thousands of dangerous minds. The man with the army telescope sees the land on the other side, but it is blurred.

And what he knows of the mainland comes mainly from the eyes of memory. This is James Fleming. With me in conference room 8 at the UN, the Republic of China's ambassador, Yu Chia, and Mr. Roger Hillsman, who is a professor of government at Columbia University, and a former Assistant Secretary of State Far Eastern Affairs. Well, gentlemen, we've just seen this film, and certainly the first thing to say, Mr. Ambassador, is that Far Mosa is indeed a prosperous and viable economy. How has this developed? Well, I think it is largely the result of the land reform program, which we carried out. And very hard work in the part of the Chinese and people on from OSHA. It really is really almost a miracle. I remember talking to an Irish official from Ireland, around about the same size,

and he was so impressed with this enormous growth rate of 7%, which is the highest in Asia, and indeed very high for almost anywhere in the world. If this could be repeated elsewhere in Asia, it would solve the problems that the age-old problems of starvation and poverty. I know that from your side and even from the side of the mainland Chinese, there is almost total resistance to the idea of two chinos. But are we coming to that? Professor Hillsman, is that going to be an eventual solution for Far Mosa in the mainland? Well, I think you ought to take it in a little slower here, Mr. Flynn. These are very delicate and very complicated problems. I think that it should stress that the nationalist government on Far Mosa has... I don't think anyone has any illusions that their 600,000-man army is going to be able to reconquer the mainland by the use of military force. I think the 600,000-man army is designed to be defensive, to prevent the Chinese communists from using force to conquer Far Mosa.

The nationalist government, mainly their policy, is then to say, to use the political it means for reuniting it. You hear this over and over again. Maybe there are some who still advocate in military use, but I think you ought to leave that net impression. Now, then the question is, going past that, is really goes to the question of the strength of the Chinese communist regime. Secretary Dulles, in 1957, gave a major American policy speech of that time. I'm talking about United States policies opposed to the nationalist Chinese policy. And he described the Chinese communist regime on the mainland as a passing phase. And an enunciated American policy that would try to ease that passing, try to hasten that passing, a policy of opposing the recognition, opposing the country, the UN, opposing trade with them, all of this, and encouraging our lives to do the same. Now, I think that it is true that the United States and the people of the United States, I think, have become somewhat disillusioned with the idea that the Chinese communists are all that weak.

I think probably we've watched the commune program, we've watched the Great Leap Forward, which shook the regime. Certainly made it clear that the people didn't really like it, but nevertheless also demonstrated that the regime did have a firm grip on the mainland. Now, in that sense, perhaps there is a diversity here. Mr. Master, this is a delicate question. I suppose all diplomatic questions are delicate. But we can't ignore the growing strength in the United Nations for the admission of communist China to this body. What's your estimation of that strength? Well, before I answer this part of your question, I like to supplement what Professor Hilsman has said. Now, we have to bear in mind that the government on Taiwan is not a government in exile. That is the government on Chinese soil.

The reason that is to do whatever it can to deliver the people from the tyranny of the communists on the mainland. I know that there are great odds against us, but then the history of freedom is made by people who are not afraid of fighting against great odds, and we can see the other side of a brick wall. So, whatever odds are against us, I think you can count on our people's determination to what we can to deliver our own people from the communist oppression. Now, as to the UN picture, I think I would not think that next year the tie would be turning against us, because I think there are more and more countries in Africa and Asia. They are beginning to realize what the Chinese communists really wanted to do, and how much subversion is being conducted in their own countries.

And I think before the next general assembly, I am counting on a more favorable atmosphere in the UN. One of the items the film brought out was the fact of the Formosan population as contrasted with the population of Chinese who came from the mainland. Is there now any substantial political movement in Formosa, let us say, to compare with the unrest of 1947, which says that the native Formosans feel antagonisms toward their Chinese government? Actually, the people on Formosa are all Chinese in origin, and of course for a period they were under Japanese colonial administration. But I think the people on the mainland wanted to be united to China, that's why after the war, the province of Taiwan became a part of China.

And I think too much has been made as to the difference between the Formosans and mainlanders. I don't think there is any active movement to be separated from the Chinese people. And actually, the leader of the so-called Formosan, independence movement, who was in Japan, Liao, and then Liao returned the Formosan now. And his movement, so-called movement, I think, has disintegrated. Let me say a little bit about this. Of course, one's information comes from contacts. I haven't been Formosan recently, but I have the impression that a little bit more has been made of the difference between the mainlanders and the Formosans than is reasonable.

It's probably the difference between, let's say, a down-east Yankee and an American Southerner. Now, it is perfectly true that in the first, in the beginning, when the Nationalist government people came over from the mainland, there was oppression, and there was a very tense period. But I would only say that I have the impression now from people who were native-born Formosans that I've known and talked to educated men. Do I think have accepted that the root is the one, as you saw in the film, the root that the mayor of Taipei has taken. That is, to come up in the regime and so on. And I think a marriage of them, and of course, the more time goes on, the more this is going to happen. There is intermarriage and all the rest of it, you see. So if there are the differences between a down-east Yankee and a Southerner, they will disappear. But then you come, I think, to the question we've been feeling with, and I think we probably don't go right ahead and face it.

And I will do it, if you wish, from the point of view of an American. The two China question, the question of what happens. I think, as far as the United States is concerned, I can no longer speak for my government because I'm no longer a system secretary, but I can tell you what I think our policy should be. What I would want to be. I would want the United States to remain firm in its determination to guarantee the people on Formosa their freedom or their freedom of choice. If they want to go and rejoin the mainland, or if the people in the mainland want to rejoin the government on Formosa, I think that's fine. But I think that we should, as the United States, stand behind our commitments with these people. If they want to resist, I think that we also, however, should insist that it not be done by war, not by force, in either way. But if the people on Formosa, of all kinds, as the years go by, are unable to reunite peacefully with the mainland. And I think we should resist a communist attempt to reconquer it, and if they then move in the direction of an independent country, well, that's fine.

But I think we should be firm in our determination. I'm talking a little longer, but I'd like to make one other point. Now, that is this, that I think that the United States has to look to its interests. I think that our obligation to the people on Formosa is discharged by our determination to defend them against attack to give them a freedom of choice. Beyond that, however, as an American who has studied the Far East, I think that my recommendation to my own government would be that regretables all it is, though I would not have wished it, I think the Chinese communists are firmly in the saddle on the mainland. And I see no prospects of there being toppled by anything except a world war in which we're involved. And therefore, I think that we ought to lay the groundwork now for that eventuality. That is the eventuality of a continuation of the communist Chinese on the mainland in power. I had the great privilege when I was still a system secretary of delivering a speech, also in San Francisco in 1963, which laid out this policy in a perfectly open and public way.

It pointed out that the difference between the situation to death and the speech was given, and dollars was that we no longer thought that the Chinese communists were a passing phase. And though they were worthless and that we were determined to support the Formosans that we maintain the policy of flexibility. That is, the Chinese became less aggressive, less ruthless. We were willing to talk to them, willing to negotiate with them, willing to lay the groundwork for a peaceful world. Ambassador Liu, I believe you would have some thoughts about it. Yes, well, here I'm afraid I can agree with the professor of my respect to his very great knowledge of Chinese affairs. I think the Chinese communists seem to be in effective control, but I think they have really been losing ground even internationally. Although the UN wrote a couple of weeks ago, seemed to give the other impression.

Actually, I have always maintained that the Chinese communists would bring their own downfall through their own deeds. Now, you read recently about the increasing privilege between Moscow and Paping. Now, if the Chinese communists cannot live in peace in the communist world, and disrupts the unity of the communist world, you can imagine what a disruptive influence is in the free world. So, I played no hope of any peaceful coexistence between the free world and the Chinese communists. I believe that eventually they would bring their own downfall. So, I still think that there was something in what Mr. Dowley said that it was a passing phase.

Of 16 years have passed, but 16 years is not a very long period in the history of men. Actually, after the World War II, I find that many world problems have become frozen, and none of them has been solved in the last 16 years. I certainly agree with the ambassador about the aggressiveness and roughlessness of the Chinese communists. There's no doubt of this. The distinction I was making, though Mr. Ambassador, was that though I agree with you that they are ruthless, I would certainly be opposed to the recognition of communist China, for example, unless they so fundamentally changed that they were not any longer the ruthless and aggressive mission that they have been, or the admission, into the UN. But I was making the point that I thought they were in control of the mainland, and that we have to live with this. We have to learn to accommodate with this.

Now, I think they are headed towards a collision course with the rest of the world, and unless they change. But I would still advocate for my own country policies that combine firmness in standing up to Chinese communist aggression, very firm indeed, but combine it with a flexibility of a willingness to accommodate if they will change their aggressive policies. The kind of policy that President Kennedy pursued at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, where he was very firm with the Soviets about removing the missiles, but provided a way out for them that they could honorably pull the missiles out, and also had the flexibility to sign a test ban tree, which was in the good of the United States, nuclear weapons test ban tree, and in the good of humanity, once they demonstrated they were willing to take the missiles out of Cuba. But for my own country, say, we must stand up to Chinese communist aggression, because we must, and be firm in this in our determination to meet their aggression. But at the same time, I think we should always have the posture that if they will reform, if they will move in a direction of a peaceful world, we will be willing to. We won't be vindictive about it.

But there's no sign of that direction. There is no sign whatsoever. All the evidence points to the contrary. There are behind the aggression Vietnam, for example. There are attack on India in 1962. There's no question that there is no sign of it at all yet. Professor Hilsman, as I saw the film, I was reminded that Kamoy and Matsu were once very much part of our public dialogue in this country, and we haven't heard much about it lately, time and its politicians over here have denigrated the military worth of these islands. I think the significance of Kimoy and Matsu is political. I think President Chong would say that if he gave up the islands, which are a thorn in the side of the Chinese communist, which are, I think, probably an obstacle to a true China policy, if you will, I think that's why he wants to hold on to them, that drawing a lion down the streets of Formosa, with Formosa on one side in the mainland and the other, makes it easier for every nation in the world to adopt a true China policy.

His continuing to hold Kimoy and Matsu only five miles off the mainland has political significance rather than military it seems to me. You agree, Mr. Master? Oh, I agree with observation that it is of great political significance, but I would go one step further, and that is, I think we mustn't underestimate its military value. I mean, I know that Dr. Hilsman is not in favor of any invasion plan, but if that should come about, that certainly is a stepping stone to the mainland, but above all, I think for defensive purposes, the islands are indispensable to us. I remember some years ago when I was flying over that area with our own Minister of Defense, General Yu, he explained to me that, for instance, this is Formosa Straits, here is Formosa with a lot of clips around on this side. Now, without this islands, the enemy can just come up to the shores of Formosa before you discover that they are there.

But with the Kimoy and Matsu, we had that warning, and it does provide a sort of shield for the defense of Formosa. Mr. Master, as we speak of Formosa today, aren't we speaking from the American point of view in rather a different context than, let us say, a year ago, and I'm referring, of course, to events in Vietnam as that situation accelerates in intensity. Does Formosa have a particularly new meaning for America and your view in the events in Vietnam? No. I think so. I think we are holding on to a very important sector of defense in the Pacific. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. Thank you, Professor Hilsman. We are grateful to the Republic of China's Ambassador to the United Nations, his Excellency Luce, and to Professor Roger Hilsman of Columbia, former Assistant Secretary of State on Far Eastern Affairs, for their reviews of the film report we've seen.

This is James Fleming, speaking for National Educational Television. Thank you, and good night. This is N-E-T, the National Educational Television Network.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.