1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-27; Part 2 of 5

it's b said documents i had to come up in my own mind with a persuasive argument as to why not eat six and destroy documents i decided the best way to persuade and was dominant the american people yes it was because i told mr weiner why did you suggest this ipo mr safire ask i want to be able to testify that i turn everything order the fbi and subsequent when i came out and they were getting more

specific than that well what was the conversation in the office of the time the documents were drawn there was a conversation as a semi i received with great plans to meet with him and said why didn't you reduce the meeting i have the impression of whitman was going to meet with mr graham something else and it wasn't specifically on this i think you suggested mr kohut moment of meeting with very determined documents also again the remainder over the open on it on a thirty or over the weekend that said there's a

delay here and co written on monday he said i'm reading this year this evening yesterday he was called up and the reception area a man mr ukman maybe national committee raised the matter and said that these are materials from that you can say by billy beane has turned over other material to the beer directly you have a new discussion with proper documents and laid them on a coffee table that i'm sure that was about this was you know this was a way that i believe we handle the situation if i was nervous you might be grilling

i was going with it meaning polygamy now prior to his coming in the office understand that un general assembly been done and my question is did you have any discussions during that time i want you to be it was for one understood what the meeting was four so was misled have any extended discussion are very politically sensitive that as i recall i call them political dynamite when i raised them with rage that he should take custody of them and that i would be away and that far as the white house was concerned

that destroyed about things the fbi files well it was because he was told that they should never be legally make public something that did you discuss something to that effect before he came into office yeah man if this was explaining him need at that point in time there are placed the documents at a small so the briefcase not really replace that money and legal briefcases that he placed the consent and seemed quite willing to

paint them you couldn't even say anything understand that maybe this was a proper procedure all unusual one and what was precisely defining said to mr gray about the documents was when i saw that they were from mr hans save at the right politically sensitive i've been explained in that we've turned the restaurateur over to the agents i think they really it would just be a very serious problem for the president during a reelection year there's something about the light conversation i think that they didn't comedian my creative ideas that time at that time

that doesn't threaten us air strike me as one of my normal phrases well the best of your collection what did you say in this diverse that's a moment that i can't recall a precise words that other than the fact that we are trailing come from one state to the best of my knowledge it'll make the watergate leak it would be used up in for political dynamite that later became public embarrassment and republicans did you ever promised to grab up these documents after that meeting i can recall calling him i recall that i believe yesterday i had one discusses with counsel now that i had a conversation and some time and mr gray in his office in which he told me he had taken of that mystic connecticut and he said he was either going to read the law had read them and i i just cannot recall which it was that he said because it was a passing conversation

you don't recall too conversations mr currier meeting with him in his office in your office or the fall asking him what he needs and he indicated to me asking him what you've done now i've read that they are that he had taken in connecticut we discuss meeting with and what was that there was a meeting i do not rico it could have been on the leak problems we're having now you recall aig in a meeting of these documents if you're in its was a big date on what you might be right i do recall a median

grade of justice came out he told me had taken in connecticut i was not really said he had read them always going to read them or something of this nature did you ever ask your creation yes i did i recall the justice department that probably in early january and that timeless ray came up to me and put the body on the said johnny depp to hang tight i'm not disclosing these governments must have nothing to him i said don't understand and others but i at the time i had been questioned by the years i thought i had to tell mr peterson if i was going to go forward and right that was going to come out that you had never asked him on many other occasions at

the same time so the conversation is never believed mm hmm are all the things i'm sure and everybody smiles at that if they really you know they give them not only is that one thing you don't destroy that's quite another another situation hoping that time i'd never seen alive again might be interpreted as wanting to be destroyed not necessarily i'm sure that a lot of things in the bill that we should never seen a lot and they had to destroy something else i see a great distinction center and two let's go to the august press conference were only president referred to write the new report my

understanding is that you and again you indicated great surprise this so called the report because as i understand it you felt that you had not been conducting an investigation anytime the president and other states mentioned your name as a great surprise to be another example when the president shortly after the supreme court handed down the death penalty decision iraq mr buchanan who's preparing the president president went on television and said i just talked to my counsel about this decision and he has his opinion and i was actually quite surprised to hear my name on television and i give them advice and turkey's decision one that had never talked about it as a great surprise to many another thing happened sen dodd he will continue his

fine tooth comb survey of dean's testimony in a moment now to include a very detailed reviewer dean's meetings with president nixon we're going to take a little pause now and just like you know that when we do we don't cut anything out there to stop a videotape for wow so you can have a bit of a rest of your station can identify itself and we start running again is nothing cut out of these earrings public television's coverage all the hearings will continue after a pause for a station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs a public broadcasting service fb fb

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pay from washington and vibe continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert mcneil as we go back to the areas senator bernie wants to know about these alleged role in the watergate get station wabe here what we are doing all this time when you have a need to at least on three oh two he was sitting in what witnesses from the white house and the fbi interviewing who have money calls to people about it you talk to mr gray about it several times you as i understand it were courting joe halderman ehrlichman that you don't

call investigation what do you tell him well i participated in a cover up i was giving my orders from my superiors and doing what i thought was expected of me at that time and following those orders or not you think that might have been interpreted by some people as a rather thorough investigation in the past i think that i would use anything and every investigative means i could conceive up and that i was not turtles not investigating all of them certainly i never pressed mr strong own involvement i certainly was investigating the white house the only person i was worried investigation interestingly while as a

private investigations there was no investigation right by your question was a dog you think that somebody else might have thought you were investigating from the activity that i just described it i don't want to tell you that all the members of the judiciary committee during the great hearings is wrong impression that you're conducting a rather large investigation was one issue the same analogy i'm sure that a lot of people thought and the president recited what the substance of the death penalty was that the president might have concluded that you're conducting an investigation well really it was the homeowners they're out and one or the other were reporting to him what was going on as you testified to many times in this is and i was just like i have no idea how this ended up in the book i had no conversations with various creative time i don't know i have no idea what was happening i have just like

that but mr haldeman frequently made notes when i was reporting to him the usual places and i'm a senior melissa you indicated great surprise and there's a rather consternation about the fact that you were said about the president's conduct of

investigation i said please mr holmes rigid wings and in your name there's a national protest mr nasr well most of the others locked up in the middle of my message that feeling i said this bothers me that i mean i think it has to do it would've been a sunni area you suggested that

and i think that what happened from what i understand is the problem of the cia may have already met a cia and they told me hey rachel i think that we should explore the possibility of the cia and some assistants well i guess my question for a major round up to you and then you brought up through all this questions i ask

operatives they couldn't anyway cia doesn't come up i don't really understand the whole world now because even today there's some arrangement were the operative is taken care of that somebody does get in trouble this was discussed in this conversation that some of the people might well be operatives it would be taking the cia might have a very legitimate interest in protecting them you mean you thought this time though seven people who were caught in the watergate it was quite clear i asked was that you knew that the cia had nothing to do of what yes sir i was about what we're willing to try to involve the cia can begin to explain what it for muggers the suggestion that these men

could have been date night this was looked at as a protest the way to deal with the situation of things were by the needs absolutely nothing to do well initially though i had two after he made a very clear that his knowledge and they did not have a problem it was about a whole but this would be a solution it was not a solution i continue to pursue it with them asking if there was anything in fact i could go on all this isn't growing in preparation for my next question did you ever does occur in the united states somebody was driving

and that was my reporting well it's going to come back if we can and the beginning of that eerie silence operation hangover ii alice fordham in jerusalem well as i explained that i would carry a message for example when it was when mr obama mr eckman agreed that the cia would be a very bad idea i took this information about it the reelection committee made them said what we have to do something now mr the discussion was that we need to come up from a no they knew that there's nothing i could say that would get us to come up the line and say they would get to come out the line

was asked about mr haldeman ehrlichman and see if they could get they would administer security which they did and then i can make a message to must come up no no and i told her to come out while you come back you want thousands of luzon and twenty nine where you meet minimum of our hotel in the coffee shop initially the coffee shop was too busy and i know i was easily within a room i was about a situation like that mr

bateman yeah as usual you don't well i don't know what i told him is that i had to convey why would he be interested in well ok what i would have picked that one time i was very concerned because they might be directed at the united states and that was the sisters is even though well what did you tell him you needed him for to raise money for one that's what it came to her one that is correct not want want want to dominate the political sense these individuals are usually the reason you don't mind i would be surprised well i thought that the money and one for a number of women of bail money and attorneys the tentative support of the

defendants in the family is there so some of the reasons you have mentioned that i can recall that when mr erlichman was asking me about some of my testimony said well i always assumed this was for humanitarian purposes and i said now you know we talked about specifics i play contains and the like the data supported the bale and the like to meet individuals who have been found in the democratic national committee who could begin unraveling the whole matter i think you understand i'm not sure i would've thought i think that would be every human thing to do if you're employed some people got caught a minimal resources of that i would say that would be a fairly logical flying that you might raise

money to pay for these expenditures well senator i'm saying and i was quite sure that come up understood at what the purpose of his mission was he told me that he wanted to use that your last or with the library's it if we're going to make such payments openly why not put it on the campaign expenditures your testimony is raising money oh support for tennessee and you did not discuss specifically that this money was being raised the paper's size is that correct specifically what the white house and mr obama understood given the whole proceeding that has been set up in houston a few last words that this was not true for humanitarian purposes

rules and he went first what did you say an unplanned know what was the understanding about the instructions that were going to be given to his comeback it is you mentioned a meeting in a new office i don't recall the rescue came with somalia's interim the major disabilities mr camargo took notes and put into

his own code on a very small piece of paper the information that mr mcgrew had an opposite of what you saw me to come up and ask me if i really get me to my office and i said fine it i didn't really know what is at the white house and met personally was equivalent of the us military or the animosity this is true meeting you didn't pay any attention to it all just talk amongst was when i would say i wasn't a i wasn't totally unaware that they were talking about it i can recall specifically the dollar amounts

i did take some telephone calls stump because the comeuppance was being very careful and in deciding how he's going to decipher down the slaughter of the stimulus policy is himself let's turn out of the september fifteenth meeting with the president of the home and interest up on me from her testimony it was a very cordial circumstances the president asked me to sit down but mayor

bob hope and what it what i've been doing an appreciation for it and you know immediately you have a i understand and i would have to go into greater detail did you discuss the criminal cases that were coming along for trial as we get there was that it was the criminal case that point there was the entire seven were being farmers conference yesterday to discuss the common core is so they haven't fallen common cause that is correct did you discuss the patent hearings that were imminent that has any idea how long these discussions there

i would say that the entire meeting lasted thirty minutes or so forty minutes did you or discuss any aspects of the watergate that that meeting with the president for example if you tell him anything about on the mainland on the menu good job indictments had been indictments stop lady because the only other lincoln at the white house as we have discussed earlier and obsession with the mendenhall woman was was magruder units remain new about wanting you have an orphanage and get into any idea that it was bin laden maybe

the us are used a strong emotional about it not huge businesses testimony in august well how can you say that the president knew all about peace and from a simple observation by him to walk but senator if your eyes and you know how your stuff operates as an image of your staff understand how you operate and about reporting requirements proceed details this was the hottest issue that was going in the campaign i can't believe that the fact that we are going to contain

this does matter with total escape the president's attention and it was to me a confirmation an accompaniment to me that i had done this thank you juli niemann discussing david greene it is diseases and i

want to follow my mind it's not a reporter but our impressions of the conversation that well and the impression i had was that you know you've been doing these things fifteen is anything about it let's turn to workers to gravity was then you talk to him in june and advised him about is that coming into view of the fbi that correct he did

it and i presumed that you know i'm his participation legally church thought he was not fully explicit that and that's why what was not until november i went out and had a full interview with him to find out the dimensions of the involvement of mr chaikin has just run i really do my reporting and that's it many

of the writers the purpose of the meeting with mrs regret it was to advise them to have an information from the fbi about strong and that's about it two fifteen thousand two hundred jobs now where you are in charge of the money i can answer that question i know that most astronomers to power partly on the week of june nineteenth twenty or thirty twenty first a relatively mr starr and mr richard hauer these findings have now been expanded yesterday to take custody of that money

you have to have money you know i was working on this i had been given a couple of simon's dollars to get the men that do that and also gets a lot of music in those days romney

i did not exactly sit down and plan this thing out and i realized i was not going to have money to pay that the honeymoon in their expenses are and that was a very easy thing for me to do to reach in and take out what i thought i would need a time low it was forty eight hundred and fifty dollars two fifty how are you i thought about two weeks down then

i also work at food expenses the government and disturbing and travel expenses much in the coverage i mean i don't know i've got about two

thousand or be the honeymoon and no i didn't know what we would have people that would be a serbian in my life to be a safe amount virtually all my expenses we're calling her testimony to seven to have neglected or forgotten to get some money out of an account in new york and not wanted to go for four thousand eight hundred and fifty dollars i needed money that's it you are calling for is not an issue i've

made several attempts to do i'm renee montagne are you i have not sat down and tried to reconstruct it makes them a chair i might be possible to do i don't know in dealing with cash that i use like i wonder if you were trying to do for the committee reconstruction anything to replace it i have

no idea i only live without the money of mine put back in your college and not just going to reconstruct their predicament is you do know and then taking up another one of the legend know only the ones following the original you know i'm not aware what time ago snow well i hope they're very clear limited but there was no intention of my party never took them out i'd understood later that by the time i'd taken about money it's that remote from the sixty eight primaries and fifty two

when i went to the government mr shepherd on the thirtieth of march and i don't recall exactly when we got a round of that we spent most time getting up at my explanation of accidental shutting down in the details of that one time a poem i had this money in it and a lot also as it were no no

the one time that i had a stick that that imagery and i said that's a dishonest thing to do and it won't be explained that i didn't make money where is the money now ms peet if they are true he said that some that i disagree with to know what is an adult characters as we have to like that definition like the situation as mike

milligan to do what's going to bring on our first dog who was a new loretta lynn was the home and that his administration was going to do to home watching him to a lawyer he was i want the truth

council on how mr cohen who is also a suburban pakistan told him about the chapter i've known chapter from some years ago we had a casual acquaintance turned warwick that autonomy how many years ago three or four years and i'd like him when i met him i knew he had been a prosecutor and enjoyed a good reputation and then i also go on the twenty eight and twenty nine and several other friends to ask them who they might suggest as a very capable and assesses situation from for me i wondered about my parliament and anybody else's problem that had never been done based on the facts that i knew mr olsen at one

stage and he realized that when i my conversation been on a mike nichols and so he withdrew and about that same time mr mcallister was retained i think dave joseph all reimbursements and

the government and that a reimbursement from the reelection committee for an expenditure for the convention that those were the only reimbursements oh my it had been a house or to get him a river that doesn't like or has recently moved into my head i was in the neighborhood family mm hmm we know it was very very very fortunate

in the white house it is you i don't know treuer

do you think that is yes you are this report i understand that mr erlichman was unwilling to use mr ziegler and there was a meeting on september thirteenth that it would you would be issued

turning to the author of a clemency to mr mccollum as i understand it you made the arrangements for the call that is a curtain and uncommunicative the league was made to invest in a car and i think in terms like it comes from the highest authority in the white house is that substantially fewer correct you know survive explain my testimony i was proceeding on a conversation that happens to them after that mr lippman indicated mr olsen also indicated that in about the matter a meeting

it's been it's big before this committee so it's a gutsy three hours total i would be surprised but i did see one section of the questioning and i believe we've been questioning them and which he made reference to this i think what you're referring to is he referred to the fact that my memory had gotten suddenly funding i have never said that before this committee understood what happened between with any clarity

between federal authorities and june seventeen and i was we were talking about that he i think he also was referring to a meeting on human and messy meetings and referring to the fact that on march twenty five and i was i did not want to engage in a discussion of my recollection of meetings that we gonna let people and i had made my decision by that time is what i was going to do and i didn't want to get into a debate on it look back i take that conversation that is not let me leave from his testimony hill anew before the committee you said i think

when was this can you reduce number that would've been generally it was before that meeting the harlem with holmes it must've been in the summer it was when he indicated to me that he did not know how the water the implant something the earth and i said john you're not remember something and i became concerned of course over that that the conversation because obviously that could be an indication of things some place else now the recall libya had any conversations with him or was it the inaugural committee were basically went around what he's going to do it with the one

thousand dollars the conversation it occurred not going to run for office he said that he was going to test the waters because he thought he had met so many people in a campaign ad if the financial backing and now was the time to move i got that without telling them he was the message has brought down the road in that church it may be putting a lot of people who have gone out to back him and gabi and i tried to he was and he added my

job those were the energy was to have a job or a discussion then i cannot recall a specific conversation will lead and mark i when i was at camp david and his resolve this is a wine exhibits i've submitted one when he wanted me to have a reflection of what election leading the way here and i said to him it's my record at camp david

important news you and he were discussing i guess the watergate him what led up and then his impression was a viewer think that ended i guess about three these images office discussion of electronic logging with where do you fall out of all her but i was never clear on what happened between february and june seventeenth i've got them on a number of occasions it was a revelation to me

meaning money and you why is that i think that statement mentions that what i've seen in their conversations the president rather nonchalant in dealing with a man we discussed it does mm hmm

if the president it was well this meeting of the twenty first the jewish guy into the president's fall on you know about why i would say with every detail because if you know it's taken me six hours to read a statement to this committee which airs i think i think that's right

thank you as i was reading it and i was relieved fb the