1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-31; Part 6 of 7

it's been the first visit where it was and one of the meetings that of the things that the president was self also discuss the president and he has reason to subject himself like in that moment i was like you all are the hole and it certainly has the lead over president dated july twentieth nineteen seventy three abreast to the chairman of this committee so that was rather here senator he's been visible why

would even greater force complaints of private residential conversations then two presidential papers at ano opening statement on page ninety the assailant had access under the supervision of us secret service agent my hand written notes got in conversations with the president which and that presents while i presume from there's the secret service agent was with you at all times when i was in the files mr alexander yes and said you'll recall that in response to an inquiry mr bovee oh justify these tapes we're in the exclusive custody of a secret service agent at all times i don't recall i'm sure that was his understanding how can

explain how the state dictatorship in twenty four hours was placed in your custody and permitted to take low and listen in your living room oil been aware of it was i believe you and i presume it was a video posted on the wall yes i'm sure it was well the president said the page so much more than all the presidential papers you're going to get them when you were looking at your papers you honestly just devastation of all time and yet you were permitted to take their city hall and greg first of all i believe you said september twenty first always on fifty noes tape on september fifteen i stand corrected that so i just want to be sure we were kind of the right at the idea

at the time that i took a take home and listen to the existence of the tapes was not known to anyone other than the limited people that mr butterfield identified and it was not contemplated i don't believe that that its existence would ever be known people and it was a request to review material for the president which he knew i was familiar with and concerning a meeting in which i've been an agenda it's our nice to let me also say to say that that the record is completely open on this that day i also had several other tapes in my possession at that time of other meetings which it had also been suggested are requested that i review i did not listen to because i

believe the involvement i think all of the bombings which i had not been in attendance at any time in any arbitrary september fifteenth meeting i had been in a tennis for the entire and i decided not to listen to the tapes of the meetings to which i had not been are you suggesting that the special label all prosecutors placed on the stage about a deal made at no less a prior to that it was all right to go private citizens to have access to have no sir i think that the access here was not in a capacity as a private citizen that any capacity as a as a former assistant to the president who was aware of the assistance of the tape and was able and had been present at the meeting was able to review the tape for the president in and report on its content i gather from your opening remarks your mind the president very

much yes sir you have a york times knowing waiting in the subway of any operational instructions i in all honesty would not be able to say that wherever i have this debate any of his instructions knowingly i have informed him we have an elevated like a steel attorney mr wilson and says in the law the prisoners and unless my recollection for all you appear to some of us as beautiful even testify on this and then i'm reading senator i had to the dinner ready because i was wanting to be prepared for what ever the ruling might be i have put the other and then

also in the the committee record which would would have been the agenda i would've read at the committee not ruled that i was required to testify in serbia where a meeting at the time of your testimony that stage and a few others you are rather controversial as sir and the outcome of whether these gates be made public or not to buy the moral hazard and the presidents all indicated that that you know sir why did you join the president in the army one inch away the president's instruction why did it why did you not obey added not because the german ordered me not we recommended committee as i understand and instructed me that i must testify must not abide by that the instruction of the president to work with all any information are you pretty reliably every wish trump has committed every wish

is every war has been in every lawful order this committee properly made certain we know that you think would like to get from him that all the time it's because billy this week sir the special investigations unit later became known as the plumbers and the supervisor wasn't going to convince most of the growth in the city on this or

we have the cia the fbi the national security agency the defense intelligence agency and all these agencies are going all out why did you find the necessary investigation i did not find it necessary information and i did not for me and him and i saw him yes or the president for me you know i think the president is the one that has yet to explain that and i think he has in his statement on may twenty second but the statement suggest that the cia the fbi and the other agencies were not one and reforming their duties statement said and i'm quoting it created a situation the leak of the pentagon

papers in which the ability of the government to carry on foreign relations even in the best of circumstances could have been seriously compromise other governments no longer knew whether they could deal with the united states and confidence yes the background of the delicate negotiations the united states was an involvement on a number of fronts with regard to vietnam china and the middle east nuclear arms limitations us soviet relations and others which the utmost degree of confidentiality was vital it posed a threat so great as to require extraordinary actions therefore during that week following the pentagon papers publication by the president prove the creation of a special investigations unit within the white house as the president suggesting that senator i'm not the one big question that i was not involved in the creation of the unit i was aware that that i don't have firsthand knowledge has two reasons are the problems of all there are no violence in the middle of asia and disgust

and given that get it as opposed to combine has indicated he looked at me as well as to other people or direction or google or so disposable was this or people i'm not sure or a peronist ehrlichman at least and in that connection with the us to its payments and that there may have been others mr camargo well i was thinking that up for mr camargo has said as he indicated you have to be as well as two other people from time to time i try stated that as does require for mr cobb of testimony hear our final question for montanans on the same page is still cruz a responsible such proposals foreign

reporters you're rueful i'm not sure what his name was he was the man who opposed to governor wallace in the primary for the nomination for governor was discounting aware of this war he was aware the source of the support i'm sure he was aware of the support was you were nations or i don't know i had nothing to do with her dealings with the candidate or during his campaign people i don't know what you know you're not curious nasr because this was worked out by other people who were rising campaign and the president on the political situation in south korea satisfied that these four hundred thousand dollars went to the program i have no knowledge as to whether they did or whether they did not i don't know and as one now in jobs we were not i was not in charge of the fund

senators to come up was but your request until proven use on the spot that's correct request the request was made for you this the only very major allocation of funds for this purpose podcast this week there's an opening remarks and harry of advertisements material you have to give the final ok that's because those related to a presidential policy you run at that states makes it makes a statement it it becomes a statement by the president and i wanted to be sure that the white house and the final there is a concern about a minute details of those as but not as an expenditure of one thousand miles that is correct related to the opposition agrees

so i understand that you listen to that tape of march twenty first in a poem you listen to that tape of september the fifteenth in the early part of july and i am we have to get the transcript which is now in my hand knows to the testimony that he gave earlier this afternoon but that i hear you say that you were put into a dilemma and why the white house relative to those tapes nasr thrown into question and you think that you were put into a dilemma by the letters alive in twenty thirteen the president of the united states to this committee i've i am better that i

would say that in the dilemma i think that i found myself in a dilemma as i was preparing to stay as i realized that that i would be testifying as to my knowledge of the content of those two meetings and that there was the day that i heard the tapes as well as having been present at both meetings and there was the additional factor of my having heard the tape of that part of the march twenty first review which i was not there and that's clearly protocol wasn't ruined careers you're preparing for this committee did it was for concern we read the sentence in that presidential water which said accordingly the tapes richard been under my sole personal control will remain so none has been transcribed republican and will be yes that would be the question but the problem was

really close before that that in my own mind in the sense that i knew that was a problem what was a major crop in nature the problem was that i had knowledge to me which i attended in which i was going to testify but that i also had my recollection of those meetings were first by having her more recently the tapes of those meetings and that i have her be a portion of the march twenty first meeting which i was not in attendance out that it is so but meehan and i think senator baker discovered what was rather difficult situation but with this statement i have to be a different problem the president stayed at these tapes will not be made public and yet my testimony as to that part of the march twenty first meeting in which i was not in attendance was in effect a

violation of the euro bond publicizing of the things i did not feel that my testimony as to the other parts that marked my first mate were arrested the totality of the september fifteenth meeting those that say bravo for that reason i requested my counsel to get a determination from the white house as to how it will deal with the situation is not a problem and that you knew what you in the states so that they that you refer to that in the case of one of the leaves you took notes which may or may not be interpreted as transcribing articles of open with mammy not being treated as transcribing this is what you knew to get bit after these elections

the statement is made or the impressions given that nobody else but the president has had these tapes is that the essence of the problem now because that the president knew that i heard that but clearly the impression is given to follow through his committee in the water the committee has to follow that nobody other than these tapes or listen to these days is even that wasn't that the concern among know there was a concern in my mind was how i would do with when my situation concerning my testimony before this committee what would you would you describe that sentence then as being accurate in light of the fact that you had had access to the tapes think of it and that you had just really this sense again her

family were tapes which had been under my sole personal control will remain so none has been transcribed are made public and normally i would say that that was accurate at the time it was was written because they had been under the president's control and directed me to listen to them and report to him on i was acting on his behalf doing so and the capacity were you working on the president i'm out there specifically to the us september fifteenth at which you heard in early july the ninth tenth eleventh of july as i understand it is certainly not an oil in the united states government no i was not i was a former employer the government former assistant to the president who was one of the few people who have knowledge of the existence of the tapes and that firsthand knowledge of the content of them at having them present day

dionne of a columnist they're not as important as well and not his employer but i assure you that i will be as a private citizen carry out the instructions of the president is effectively i'm going to be as i would have an employee injury even consider that the president doesn't control these tapes while they were in your house i think that's a i think he was until only knew that i had on investing listen to them you have their report to have on the content of them and return them to a fight the rasmussen streets none has been transcribed you go ahead and transcribed a portion of the states that want to do i made notes

and your answer transcribe dada i would make i made notes in the same sense that i would make notes of lower in the meat that if i made notes in a meeting and transcribing would be due to expand those or order to in the case of the tape and transcribing would be my duty literal reproductions could the president control over the president control what you did with these tapes or you have the president control or not sensory is whether sen nunn has been transcribed are made public and you feel it when the president turn something or to a private citizen of effect has now gone outside government channels is in public stance

i don't know at the time he said that it had been made public and in a sense i don't view having the listener that they'd been ordered to report him on it was a matter of making it public i think he had every reason to believe he did the coalition of your definition very precise definition of these words in a letter july twenty third from the president to this committee you don't know that there's any good accuracy of that statement relative vacuum you have had access to tapes of earlier date with the president and sent my access to be totally under his control well we have an awful lot of things have you know in the last couple months and i realized that the open and in numbers and in quality anecdote almost

puts us into a state of shell shocked that day when i read a sentence and so i took that and we got a letter on the committee quantitative anonymize soldiers will control remain so none has been transcribed republican nominee i think probably i got the same question to ask the american people got to the fact that nobody else is going on and the possession of those tapes or listen to those things now we have your explanation of a set in very now turns as to this particular set it is a matter as a matter of common sense it would seem to me anyway that the dilemma that you found yourself in with a dilemma created as between the words of the president in his life uribe your question implies

and then when you said it was not contemplated the existence the stage would never be known how to contemplate withholding the existence of these tapes in this committee in a neo us attorney's special prosecutor i have never contemplated the existence of the va know they these were tapes that were produced with the knowledge of very limited number of people are for very limited purposes and that was my understanding that they would get their existence would not become the last year to year an individual and as one part of a wrench that is most anxious to get all truth for the american people and the jury room statement ms davis follows quote one of the great tragedies of our time is at the moment at

least a cloud hangs over the accomplishments of the past four years the promise of the next four years because of watergate its aftermath and related matters this point and seizing broad charges and counter charges allegations innuendo hearsay rumor speculation hypothesis which i devoutly hope these hearings in the current work just part of the special prosecutor will bring an early investment conclusion of the nation's leadership again turn their thoughts their efforts to more productive enterprise if either stayed on page two the opening statements followed for confidence when the entire crew has no will be clear to the american people president nixon watergate here still of the current restrictions

you've taken on your own initiative to clear this matter than to assist insane to have the full trooper during watergate cover up and made known the american people which that i might just call was not in response to the prestigious committee or some other congressional committee year this administration on its own nation before the world done nothing for the press because of it set year ago that was more appropriate for me to try to do whatever i would do before the proper legislative judicial bodies i have attempted to cooperate as fully as i can with your staff and several long meetings and to the opportunity to do so before the full

committee which i'm not doing i have told the grand jury and everything that i can tell them to try to meet with the us attorney's review the thing with a short meeting universal the position on the matters germane to their lawsuit to the attorneys representing the democratic national committee and their associates as for sweaty ministrations done it's my understanding that the administration conducted through its appropriate arms the fbi the justice department enormously expensive investigation an enormously prosecution i have raised the question with principally john bain was our contact with that investigation sometimes at my own instance and sometimes it's the instance of the president

as to why or whether we can get all these facts and get them put together and get them out to get them no i did not diversity to getting miners devastated along the way i now today see reasons for that failure that i didn't see at the time and as i said in my statement i still don't view i know what actually did happen or who actually did it or how do the first one to say this is i read your statement every wannabe actions which you indicate to me was a reaction action reaction to this committee or the roster moving for but had huge i'm making a statement before the committee on the one hand to me that that you advocated putting

up getting a red state as a repository of the truth yes sir i think there's a much greater repository in the testimony of firsthand witnesses that takes really only two several meetings with the president the problems of the watergate and the things that we were trying to get out over a long period of time until march twenty first or if you want to go back to forever twenty seven didn't relate to it to be presented at all and i think that the facts the defeat the imagination takes her who's going to bring the facts are that that's the essence of my question you

president did bring the fact that i would think that that the place was a lovely that the facts will be brought out an appropriate action taken with regard to those facts is that the judicial process which i have full confidence is no deal is the proper place to deal with criminal act so the american people are know the truth now on the leadership of their executive branch of the leadership of the judicial and legislative branches centuries my answer is that when you're dealing with criminal acts and dealing with with the questions of the final questions of loyalty that place for them to be dealt with the forum for the hamilton is the judicial process a lot of work from bela times the times that i was just in my closing statement will have additional time and on measure also leery of the cost of their out what to do about this committee

maybe the best way to put this committee given the executive branch of the united states drew stood for in control the entire mountain won the best cleanest most of our lord wear buttons all right i'm calling for right out and as i indicated in my statement that was one of the principal purposes of the cost of meeting in a moment senator mount traveler ids questions about those presidential traits that mr haldeman obtained are now we're going to pass public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after a break for station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs a public broadcasting service terry and pike continues its

coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert macneil as we go back to the hearings it is senator among employers during with a witness thank you when you do a basic number fifteen play your own review indicates that you play in your home this is what that kind of man they played the hat i don't have a tape player for this i was supplied with a tape player by most trouble with a machine i dont know serve as a battery operated just portable tape recording device was a regular portable machine yes sir and then ami thank you play it once did you have a recording device on this machine those

are just a straight play where it's opposite as you probably know if it's okay to tape machine that both reports of machine is capable of reporting for a plane ticket can only do one thing at a time at the time i was using it was playing not report show you play the tape from the beginning to the end of it that the takeover but that part of it that part of the tape that concerned the september fifteenth meeting they want it yes and i didn't write and play the entire side because the states cover for an extended period of time and the question that i played was only that portion of relating to the meeting with ms trevino i had to skip a little bit and listen to actually date september fifteenth was an afternoon in which i was the whip the president often when i listen to little bit stiff fine word of the meeting started this is the least and i listened to that in its entirety and then turn it off and were all the real the unabomb you've been taking parties at the white house

i don't know senator i don't have not reviewed the ones century in what is this one next so is it just that invites them having that span of seven have a standard of the solos of an average year and then the yeah my twenty first tape would you say yeah that was about the same size this or saw the star the same surgery and i want to play that i want to play the tape that much money for a staff meeting and what what kind of a tape recorder either the same or nervous so on to the one i used to have for the september fifty three i knew only a random tape wants and use its top and occasionally and then make notes things that said about it that is courteous now

how long did it take you to have these notes and the transcribed an outsider how long did it take you to play this tape and there are longer it takes you to make notes from the state's voter id well what would you estimate the gang with respect to the mikes twenty first thing that's difficult to do was on a nurture it now did the mines too the first tape have the conversation and dialogue between the president and mr dean as well as the dialogue in which you participated after the president and mr dean what i listened to was the entire content of the president's

meeting with this treaty did you think i was present for the final four in the sky did you listen to your rescue the forty minutes which i was present yes yes sir and there i was in the same day yes or are now if it was a seven day i'm not sure anyone known as no one said this would be only about thirty minutes and that's on the speed of the tape senator the tape recording machine head and in fact i had a problem with that because the machine has a number of settings for how fast to run the day i was at a i don't know it was there were i think four different settings and when i first started that noise you're familiar with the tape it's running too fast and it i moved it down to the lowest speed that the tape recording

machine operator that are not provided the sound proper us to how long time to play the tape a new estimate that than those of the media to eight hundred and five minutes sixty minutes sixty five minutes before i came in and forty minutes after i came in a total of a hundred and five minutes and would you say that they're the paper ran an hour and forty minutes while hundred and five letter forty five minutes an hour and forty five minutes yet unsure about that yes a bunch reasonably sure i as i said in the time when i listen to it that's what an update you had ended up and find out for assad and i can speed that a pet that's halfway around and i see that it is and it's easily or so

that easily david's it's a matter of fact i'm unsure can be ascertained i know that they recorded these tapes at the smallest possible speeds those to get the most amount of joe onto an individual real because you can imagine this says it was producing what love take on that would change the states haven't had a friend that it's my understanding that this was an o and telling the idea by several staff members of the technical security division of the secret service now let's go into another subject matters be believe you stated that the president didn't get interested in trying to unravel the possible involvement of the white house until after the march twenty first me when he hadn't

announced that then he won an intensive investigation is that correct he did make an announcement about the march twenty first lady well he announced on april seventeen on march the twenty first the head that i determined that he would conduct and begin an intensive investigation into the watergate affair which he had done it he was announcing a month later that he had done so why not do this before and why did you in london why didn't have you initiate investigations of euro some americans think for myself i didn't invest initiated investigation my own in this or any other matter simply because i was not the person to initiate investigations or conduct investigations and particularly in this matter which was the subject of as i understood the most intensive are one of the most intensive investigations in american history i really you know relied on what mr

bing was doing and that he relied on information which he was bringing to you and that's why you didn't then manifests great concern for the president always that affect what we relied on what the federal investigation the justices however were doing as reported to us by mr de canas result of that from time to time by the attorney general and others the information which you were receiving from the federal bureau of investigation the information which are worth saving from mr dean that you felt that there was no need to implement those investigations and start out no or yourself weiner exception which is that i was not receiving any information from the fbi i was received yesterday was i was receiving information was writing it to anybody who might have taken to the

president regarding what are the fbi information he was not importing add to libya information too many of a certain race not to be i what information he really was important to us was in summary forms an unbearable and nobody in the white house watergate matter which was the earlier views specific concern responsibility right now in the washington post on october tenth a pianist or a the following in a filing to the filings that fbi agents have established that the watergate bugging incident stand around a massive campaign of political spying sabotage conducted on behalf of president nixon's re election and directed by officials of the white house and the committee for

the reelection ali resident now in the article continues this excited a concern of those people in the white house to keep bills that specifically and they assistant to the president for domestic affairs mr erlichman in the senate the story inside some kind of concerned too it agreed that there've been a number of stories many of them with some degree of accuracy and many of them with no accuracy whatsoever so the story is is one step in raising question on that but certainly not definitive mass a senator that that the allegation and i don't have that story before mean that the allegation they're as i recall and attempted to tie a number of what i believe to be of the time i'm related that's together into a massive wallow in our roads to find their espionage and sabotage minister mr chairman mao you

let me finish my friends in oakland now on october the sixteenth there was another story linking after combat as a journey for the president and with mr cigarette then on and the evening star monday october twenty thirteen there was a story linking this to the assistant director of the crp their eye on october twenty fifteen washington post there was another story linking mr chabon the strong when he's in the white house than twenty years nineteen seventy two there was a story in washington while making mr white apron and a strong and also another story later on linking with make a list on mr golson and reciting an article in time magazine that and all these things and other stories

excited the onset of those people who had the administrative responsibility to inform the president just what was going on so now that we certainly didn't have that set senator the president of course was fully aware of those stories to ask what's with enough to excite the attention of the president to those a humane say well you mean to tell me that he gets counted to do i did and how so one generation

we know you do you're welcome i prefer that as one alternative in another statement not giving migration nineties as the over and then the decision of the the committee is now you want to be don't worry and they're not alone who had given his interrogation tapes you

always have that to have to stay in the moment that we will go where is your political effects for the rhyme or is right as gena like i can affirm that there that this was this act was indeed nothing new under the sun because this is the procedure we've been following in this matter ever since i retained counsel and since it appeared before a number of committees of the senate the house of representatives before the grand jury and before the us attorneys whenever any question arose relating to whitehouse restriction presidential restriction on my testimony whether it was in the early days of this process here executive privilege at which time i was foreclosed from testifying as did anything relating to have a conversation with the president or whether it was a question of national security which was imposed upon by testimony in some other areas or whether as

it has been in recent days the question of the separation of powers in each case where such a question arose four appeared that it was going to arrive i asked my counsel to request advice from the white house as to how we work to deal with this council received that advice in the form of a letter from the council of the white house and such letter was delivered in case do yourself regarding executive privilege and that to be a grand jury in the us attorney's report executive privilege and so it's that this was not and to process that was as as of the arrival of the tapes our new york bureau maybe b well yeah thank

you we're cool i know mr david yeah as i said in my statement that mr chairman i do not recall being present in that meeting but the president's law does show that i was in for the first twelve minutes or for that performance at the start during that time it was risky how you

doing concert when the legal residents if you're wrong in the march twenty thirteen he told me that i may have the va it was his understanding that strong and he's been all that you have no hope a lot it was not very distraught that was the ones that strive had held in custody during the campaign that well yes sir lonnie i'm not sure that even when

you are the return of the committee i don't believe it and say that you have to do it while you're while i have the feeling is determined that he had already the army describes the very activity to the president at some earlier point and he simply alluded to it in this when you don't know all right i'll pay the money a patient landed yesterday and he also told them that well he was talking about the

antiviral yes sir and then miami through a mall and then he said mr paulson recalls meeting call reclamation of the levee well as career and he also said that he plans to honor the answer no sir i don't i don't believe it was any reference to an individual in connection with the book marco rubio no sir

yes sir or when he said there was some problem regarding the brooking institution as i recall and i don't believe in my recollection i don't know what's in that meeting or another meeting that the way he referred to it was a second story job with the brookings i don't want to second stage of his essence but in any event whatever it was was carried out i had not heard this story about the allegation of arming the rookies until low but he goes and they said there's a possibility that the maximum zimbabwean reagan were city didn't know image was another and then he also co wrote that was meant to know that our people have to raise money that's correct

yes sir and they discussed some of them how much it would take to all this year and he's elevated up he's he said the elevated years now oh i should put that the way it really famous picture vermont was that being said on the presence of how much money is his barry talking about earnings at over three years probably a million dollars that would be very hard there it is very hard to raise that money and the president said it's it's not hard to raise that we can raise a million dollars and then get into the questions of one case before i even have a meeting and making a statement but it would

be wrong and in other exploration of this given the time to find out what he was talking about you know long the eu one of course mark generally familiar with that so they're so you said that the president the deal that the president said about raising the money and you say you don't know is that that would be wrong and there was considerable our discussion about what you do what being would recommend what should be done and it out what this process isn't the sort of thing that was a there's a very similar story look at that i don't understand the request of the discussion

and now they know that the bottom of all the runways and then i'll tell him to get local called render with him in except that about that the wrong what we do yes and i think the differences in the media the parents and indeed testimony is i don't understand it but he said it will take a million dollars and the president said that's no problem that was the end of the last minute that that was not the end of them are well i think that's a terribly important difference is for the us military would be about imagined way to your right he's back

so let's talk about the money for a minute i want to talk about it excess of fines and you say you understand were left over from the nineteen sixty eight campaign also about three hundred thousand now you have any information about how those nineteen sixty eight and raised to get those orders and get your own apartment well it was my understanding that i think was my original understanding about will through this entire interim period that whatever funds it was a lot that was whirling what i understand from the testimony has been given here that there was a certain obligation an additional mountain in bank deposits and i'm i'm talking about the nineteen sixty eight campaign surprise pop song like if i understand that the testimony that's been given year and i should be trying to characterize it but

my recollection is that you've been told that there was a million little over a million million one or something like that in cash left over from sixty eight campaign that was my understanding and about six hundred thousand and four seven hundred thousand in as both fb