1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-31; Part 2 of 7

and the world of the specialness of what was looking for these lakes no i don't think so other than the fact that there was such a unit they were working at this we may have from time to time to talk about whether they were making any progress or whether we were getting information that has come up on the seniors that at the meetings i don't recall any specific reference to the attention to the subject of leaks came up as a part of that statement that you were at one point with a plan which the president spoke to the nation as relates that that however was on a broad base is not specifically related to any individual week or two that the soviet national security are you know or if your status here is your

step meetings and in the morning say about be focusing in on this girl out there as a suspect suspect but in an effort to get more information about him i don't think so and not through those means it was of course a figure in this in public recording of it so i actually was at the time and whatever was in the press so that you know it was an effort to get a psychiatric profile on the state of that notion did you know that a group of aceh now to california to seek nuclear activity access to gut feelings records though was that i didn't know and mr reynolds i will be discussing this with you he did not discuss before sam dash moves on to other intelligence operations including operations sand wedge we're going to pause on the televisions coverage of the senate hearings will continue after breakfast station identification

on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service terry and ride continues its coverage or hearings by

the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert might be you as the questioning resumes mr haldeman as being asked whether he'd ever heard about john caulfield operations send wage proposal now an awareness language spoken over the years and that also was a proposal yes it was and it will monitor that of what occurred that when they withdraw and i'm going to get it it will be good the law i don't believe i did i think that that it served up and it's only somebody say know who says no it's my impression that that day nobody ever gotten to say no nobody ever said yes and so it never happened it's funny you ask you know that he was working for certain white

house projects and it was a man employed outside on certain white house projects may at some point to his name at that point did not pronounce it you know isn't government aramis the river is no now when it's a recruiter was playing an active role really reluctant president certainly for nineteen seventy while we wear and the communications that you were probably getting from the straw that there was concerned in the oncoming campaign of demonstrations and violence that might take place yes that was that was a matter that was discussed i mean you're welcome back that there was a feeling that there was a major development thousands of passing through the german who might be involved i don't

i don't recall discussion of intelligence capacity in that sense there was there was definitely a discussion of the problem and of needing to know what the nature of the problem was that it was most intense it in relation to the convention site and a potential problem when it was rumored to the building in san diego and we did have intelligence on that we had had the secret service for all directly or one that ran during the war it really is well at some point i'm not sure that you become aware during the

late nineteen seventy walk november december really not sure it is true that when i went it like i don't know for sure when he did he went to where the june seventeen <unk> was there was that the canadians at the un and you wear it wasn't what they were it was a poison counsel for the committee that's corporal his name came by my desk at some point in connection with his salary that was one of the cases where i think her salary was going to be very that was higher than we had been getting at the white house was out of alignment with some other sorry there was some discussion of the year of the souring question that connection in

your reporting you know that's the only us deliveries of one of your role in this now did you learn how to be miserable why then another meeting on every four nineteen seventy to examine the measure were buying the year yesterday that was it in recent months an alley also in the summer of nineteen seventy two by way of mr dean recounting to me the fact kirby's is the

assertion that there have been these two meetings as i recall would tell me that they have been in december and january nineteen seventy one seventy two and that there he had attended the two meetings that he had come to me after the second meeting and reported to me that i've been presented of intelligence that was totally inconceivable absurd the characters in some colorful phrase i think of that line and said that he had turned the plan all but detroit and then turning his plan are that he thought that that there should be no further discussions of this kind of an intelligence program intended to have dissipated no such discussions and it recommended the white house not participate if there were any such further discussions and there should not be any

and that it wasn't but now business partner now testifying that energy june seventeen yes yes it is and no i'm not positive i am it's a general recollection that this took place in the summer it's a clear recollection that it also took place in him march of this year mr dean well you know despite this being said the white house i don't recall with any clear recollection that i was willing to accept his duties very specific and very positive recounting to me of what had happened i didn't find an incomprehensible and that

i do i make one point that that arises in this that i have only recently become aware of them because my recollection very clearly is that must've been told me that these meetings took place in december january of nineteen seventy one seventy two and he reported to me after the second meeting i don't have any recollection of his ever saying to me but the specific meetings and intensive checking your facts and figures and lows and so forth checked my law to see whether in fact i have met with john dean at any point early in nineteen seventy two that could have been the meeting that he had described to me and i found that there had been such a meeting on february first that i assume was a meeting to which he referred to an alert was in the back of my mind at a

general confirmation that he probably had come and told me about the situation and that was the time that you don't so i didn't realize mr basham tell watching these hearings that the chinese were no on january twenty seven and there were four and that was me then our meeting was to meet with me every first armenian there were first was the media which he told me about intelligence planet apparently was between the two buildings rather than after the second meeting and that may be the reason arlen specter but i have to determine whether there was any other meeting with his duty during that period of time in a final meeting in the months of january february except the media there were at first only receive gotten a lot better i would use your

law on the lot where the enemy you'll be hearing on the law i think they would imagine the genesis of the bases yeah this was not this was not an appointment book and i didn't maintain any appointment book because i didn't need any pre determined skeptic this to have was maintained by my secretary whose desk was immediately outside the only door to which there was access to my office and then she recorded it in this low every person coming into my office and the time that he came in and every person leaving my office in the time that he left that part of the law is very accurate and that was very accurately kept in that it was first hand knowledge of the of the secretary at the desk of people coming in and out that desk was always and

when i was in the office if migrants will certainly wasn't there another girl is a limo or she loved that the law does have some potential inaccuracy is in the effort to report my participation in meetings outside of my office because then she was only aware that i had left the office and was not always aware where atlanta with whom i had met mr lloyd oh geez the nineteen eighties i don't recall being so informed i don't recall any of the other thirteen or twenty nine decision items that were apparently also covered and that

memorandum agenda and it's not surprising in a way this is a disease like your attention at a price as master spies described it a three line item in a rather think political matters memorandum dealing with among other things apparently thirty decisions that have been made by mr mitchell at a meeting as the republican nominee and you know and that wouldn't be the normal process mr danish you're referring to the arizona talking paper that that he referred to him in terms of the year but i was that sometime shortly after that

and it's just i mean i was having a meeting with ms jinich it with anyone else with regard to the campaign on the committee on his own initiative within his area of responsibility or care for me a talking paper listing those items of discussion that he assumed would be useful or desirable to discuss at that meeting and i didn't i knew what i wanted to talk about what he was doing was time to jog me by women talking paper on items that i might not think about that he thought might be useful to discuss an eu varying ways i sometimes made margin notes that sometimes

made checks buy items and i sometimes made no market all mr obama i don't know it's down to me two years yes indeed

right now but it was destroyed oh i understand that mr strauss testimony that he destroyed documents so i presume that it would be i don't know whether it is or not you have you know long preparation for your testimony of your eyes and look at my notes here but you know i haven't did you know

this sophisticated salon writer and it and that you said this is the law reviews you said that the clean energy in the gate but this is mainly due to the break your testimony as you describe it and as i said in my statement i don't recall

oh my that's right mr stein statement which is really like a news knowing why he indicates that he destroyed what he considered to be politically embarrassing material and there was a recall under direct questioning he quite specifically said that he did not think he was destroying anything that don't contain any evidence of illegal work activity and he said that in a statement the business that was not a question now you recall

every cd then the eu accessibility is with special emphasis on the relationship you have to follow here that we receive that means i think that my intent to determine why someone else does something is is something that i should not get into a virus it's a feeling that we in this whole thing so much and to the opinions of what one person some other person might have

done rather than what that person knows he did or didn't wow you say that the staged robbery report is from nineteen seventy on that spirit did you during that year but the concerning loyalty incentives at her horrible accident yes i had a very high opinion of both his loyalty and his status as veracity june seventeen nineteen seventy two that seems to be the crucial question and then no i have to give i guess the most incredible possible answer i don't know that i simply don't remember how i learned about him or precisely when oracle but let me explain and then at

that time that weekend i was in key biscayne the president was in iowa city at this hotel and i'm sure that some time during that we can somebody told me that the democratic national committee had been broken into and i'm not sure who are watching what you're doing or wearable nothing disney animation and i will i think i get it and i think that came in a phone conversation with jeb magruder on the eighteenth on sunday which are it's always been my impression was placed by him to me but i understand he says displaced by needed him and i which is which that phone conversation the purpose of that was to

review a statement that the committee was planning to release and it was really significant junction with b either already publicized or assumed about to be publicized fact that mr mccourt who did have a connection with the committee had been one of those arrested at the year you're mine i don't believe i did yes these right now well when i think on the evening of

on monday evening which would be the key and it would you had a that when you have been reporting that about what you've written on the bubbly so i'm not sure they have a witness to be to that point the press by i believe we've been leaving you know what i think that's in a capsule of my record year that set the direction but the details that but i think the idea was to me the morning of the twentieth with and which i was present with mr mitchell mr bergman and that theme was used to being was in part about meeting an attorney general pointing out that meeting you recall that there was a general

discussion of what information was and sent a breakdown in a relationship with matty i have no specific recollection of the content of that meeting that i'm sure that given area type situation or get married oh yeah it's bleak on twenty six figure this isn't an example out my log of june twentieth does not show a meeting with those people that i've identified that that and then my summary here is the result of information from other sources what my log shows is immediate job elements office which is all my secretary would know she didn't know who was in the meeting and

so that you were going to do juanita page over twenty thirty years that doesn't show me a totally un and the summary of it you know but that doesn't show community that i think that i talk with dean on the phone that day that morning i don't believe i'm a manager now where did you go

not necessarily no i was a kid as i say the only be that i seem to be doing that week was the be a million and bistros office of tony are out at union it leave you flat yes sir your emails at

thank you the white house it is now us well no that misstatement i can honestly tell you wanna get into one that i have made up a more detailed statement before another senate committee that's looking into this matter considerable detail i'd be glad to read that statement or put in tirana has a question and they created it he

was in effect order of by re re investigation of cia activities or to restrict the investigations he recalls a conversation i'm not sure of the accuracy and i don't think you want to get into the specifics of the store's testimony i think you're asking for my recollection of that conversation so without commenting on either the accuracy of mr wallace recollection or were your recitation of the biggest is he's given a number of different statements and the positions in this thing that would make it rather complex but that the meeting one of the purposes of the meeting as a sign to me by president twenty on the morning of the twenty third to me

to me in addition ascertaining whether there was any cia obama whether there was any cia concern about earlier activities of people who had been arrested at the watergate was to tell the cia directors that the fbi had expressed concern that as to whether there was cia paul ballman or more any engagement that actually holds a great ad for a second that was i did not know that prior to our meeting with astronomers the waters because telecommuting <unk> told me at the meeting that there was no cia involvement in the watergate operation and that he had so informed directorate so i learned that that that be added not priming why was a war that is a problem because

there seems to be a very difficult thing to get across with that because there were other items of concern the matter the question raised was not solely the question of whether the cia had been involved in the watergate break in but also whether the investigation of the watergate break in which was to be thorough and total could possibly impinged upon the activities totally unrelated to watergate and related to national security or a covert cia operations the activities of some of the individuals who had also been involved in the watergate and had been arrested at the border but then this involves at rubio the media and took a route through mexico and back with a video that are now

in the possession of some of our that i cried don't recall a state of knowledge about the whole circuit of activity at the time of the june twenty third meeting what you recall recall discussing at that meeting that they want a concession that the cia might want to have it and i don't recall the mexican question being raised either by the president that morning in his instructions to be donating or by me in the meeting are now we're we're going to follow the moral sand i was not at that time i was not until a certain all was under investigation by the end of the other senate committee

mr diaz you parents dread i like the voice or a summary of how it is well you're right i mean there's a whole we do it

during the brutal i know the mental model low an accessory discuss rumors involve know i came up and i plan to develop a router to tell it all rendered to be better than she knows any word you have more recent information directly about that did not rise today to testify that he was very religious the reason he was a really overt the committee was that he was this who report that the un

report that and then inform you that wasn't it and that would be a serious question of whether it together the grand juror you recall the makings of reports he did not formally and where you can yeah that information that led you to be exact about the recruiters allow and the great innovative were working at that time i don't believe so at the i like the only way i would have rather than being telling me which i don't think he did would be if there were press reports and i again it's hard to remember what was said when that there were various allegations at various times as too someone some of the reporting you write that no

matter how do we will pay it you must measure with the metal is that the body what this committee that he learned for the first time and they're being debriefed by martin amis a row inmate living that he learned for the first time these operations into the eu and the middle as well so that is then the reborn and you resident in the vision that we've you know you recall a little reporting what he wrote in a very those are if i could expand the

size what would be america's mr welter of journalism there were more that made my share this year and so we get more yes or no answer from him that would differ mr lieberman may or may not be a significant to the record than it used to be not particularly in a system where it was wet <unk> one other requests at this time i'm having trouble following some of this testimony not only in terms of a resemblance but in terms of records the previous trends in the eighties when as in this case mr mitchell testified so and so it would be very helpful if council will now

martin jerry council an update their notes that we know what records are speaking out and if it's in a statement that the witnesses made as in the case most strongly like that an updated foreign reporters i don't expect that we can change horses little stream into that today but if we could do it as a beginning a second mr riedel providing rural senators references as well as recruiters testimony that would relate to mr orban on mr strahm harvest vessels those references to the chants are questions i have not been interviewed almost two days since the us mr mitchell well and this just on just on i mean you

and a family it's an important job mr jama i was a very frightening one occasion runs in the strongest morning that's right this week i think that they are

so the river we're subject i'm not suggesting that council would robertson they're questioned the tragic number i'm simply saying that it should be available so that we want to know we can i do not suggest that the members of the committee under new procedures length of their inquiry may also carry a greater burden of examination so what am i asking the chairman not and it is a new procedure therefore i certainly would not call court today as council profound questions that assume that testimony or statement of what was previously they have available on their notes a transcript that would record so i can go either way this is

i will make that available foreign and spends quiet and supply dc office you conveniently manage to actually enacted it's just that i was going to expand on the no answer to that question of like that not the no answer but the no in answer to the question are the reason i say that is that i did not know of any of the items that i can recall reading in the newspaper or hearing <unk> mitchell testified to under the category of white house horrors at this time last year i learned of some of the end of march and april of this year and others of them in the course of these hearings but i did not know of the items that have been enumerated in i think if you have his genitals testimony there if you have something or you could lose those those specific things

he catalogued his white house wares i believe that i did not know of the existence of it was that the testimony he's pro audio were great and i did not know the idea of the you did not know the answer i did know security work now the women that certain funds or been raised with a little piece of the offense sometimes in the period shortly after the watergate break in and i'm not sure again of any specific date or occasion on which i became aware of that but i

was told some time in that period and that was still at other times subsequently i'm sure by john b and i think possibly also by john mitchell that there was an effort by the committee to raise funds to pay for the legal fees and for family support of the defendants who have been arrested in the watergate burglary now when that information to receive that information from the game or the middle finger is a question that is while mr mitchell who was putting up the campaign the deal with the president would be involved in raising funds to political views and family of the workers are no i didn't this was answered no information received in just this prisoner

that anyone will you consider that that became public that it might be a matter though i didn't consider why not i'm not sure that one is able to explain why he didn't think something that i didn't get but let me say that that said as a partial explanation i have had a general awareness that but there was a public effort to raise funds forty a watergate defendants and i don't know that i knew that these efforts were different than the public and for me you know what it was there was a reference to a cuban acumen fund that you know there's an effort to raise it or not and i never heard any discussion of this in in any context other than as a group the defendant's lawyers there was no discussion of individuals by name and his interview is satan considered the question is it your view that a persons who have no

opposition and in the administering the president's reelection campaign as the president's counsel and any business or dissipating and raising olivia and legal fees for burglars wiretap mr spears there's this is not a question to ask of myself four no more modular more those are the un do anything by listening to invest in reference to your recollection that even though but i don't think i was called on to condone or condemn it and i think i receive information and then that was the only thing getting information that could be expected that if you disagreed with that actually would tell not necessarily i don't think it was submitted

to me for approval i think it was transmitted to be as information of what information you are now when you are i caused this or anyone else that is that is that it was not and i think a year her testimony they have indicated for the money went back to the committee that's where you saw i knew of no connection between the money going back to three hundred

and fifty thousand or or whatever i went back now the committee that you were aware of no connection between that money going back and the need for more more confidently legal defense thirties and forties of these were good but let me very specifically referred to to my statement and to the development of the events in that regard i can repeat the state but if you want to or because briefly answer questions as i said in my statement yesterday and i was asked when was distraught after the election what should be done with the video cash fund that event custodian out i told him and it should be returned or not returned a turned over to the committee to reelect and that he should work out these are doing that with john be subsequently i was told it was a problem

doing subsequently took that i was told by john be again as i have been told earlier that there was a it's continually for legal finds the movies for the watergate defendants and at that time following this sequence of events i then said we have a desire to deliver funds to the committee the committee apparently has a desire for fox and i suggested that being tried to carry out both of those two objectives which he subsequently did you know that we have this three and dial no no they did not in my understanding represent campaign funds the three hundred and fifty thousand dollars came from as i indicated in my statement be what's known now i think as the nineteen sixty eight primary

surplus finalizing campaign not just different in the senate to campaign and this was money that neglected from where the election i did not know by what means this money had been collected or for what purpose i knew as i testified that mr camargo was a custodian of a very substantial cash on after the nineteen sixty election i've heard it justified to hear that that was generated as anybody has as a surprise from funds raised in the nineteen sixty eight primaries well i guess you knew that the money with the american sentiment in color in possession of the president or the government or just not ever i learned that subsequently also it was my understanding that the money was under control and in the possession of his to come up either now when you ask

us or are on a lot of the money that was in control in possession of history khan market which we have been using during the war period from sixty eight to seventy two among other for other purposes have been using for for coal i think is a substantial amount of a crippling during that period and my point was it was my understanding that that money was going what ever was left of that money was going to be turned into the campaign committee and would be considered part of a cash on hand or whatever i started reporting period april seventh i think prior to the start of that reporting period i they didn't request and it was discussed with mr mitchell mr stanza i'm sure also with mr cromartie weird at the same time or a different time the my request at three hundred and fifty thousand dollars of that remaining funds be set aside and not turned over to the committee and not therefore be made part of the campaign funds i subsequently learned

that i thought that money was to be picked up from <unk> come up i thought it was in his possession i subsequently learned that that the money had already apparently then commingle in some way with other funds that did relate to the previous seventy two campaign but i don't know when why not the fonz and it became a bit of a combat controller that you know these funds have something to do with political campaign with political campaigns yes but not necessarily with the nineteen seventy two president obama said that it was an incentive is born with one campaign at the mine was related to that it was money wasted on the law and so you you said it came from

campaign funds instances important the seventy two campaign i made the basis of time in seventy two the money you won't end who was being sent back to committee and crew of abuse that was being used against these and forties i did not specifically know that any or all of this money would be used nor do i know now that many of the world that has been used for that purpose and investment was that at a time when we're also learning to me and you loesser did not approve of the need for the money is basically i did know it and i was not in a position to approve of the need for the money for that purpose and my interest at that time was in

delivering the money to become a lot of high interest was not my motive in other words was not for the purpose of whatever the committee was going to do with the money my motive was that my potential use for the funds had no no longer existed and i did not want the responsibility of maintaining custody of the fans they're leaving at the baghdad they knew the money was running for the house or i'm sorry i can't leave it at that well as the rivers that there is this an alliance i imagine them at the committee's report on illegal and world war ii i think it's a work that way by the committee and the committee bob now that's correct

but i did not know mr days what was to be done with the funds that were delivered i didn't know whether any or all of them were to be used for that purpose i did not know that they were not well over another or you instruct them when the money went over that it would be improper use of campaign funds langley defense of the way at the time i made no instructions as to the use of the funds no sir i thought that the funds were no longer appropriately kept under mind control and authority and that they should be turned over to the committee to reelect in and handled by them and we are not concerned about the committee to reelect president conduct its business in a way that might embarrass the president united states and i thought that the committee was going to conduct its business in a way that would embarrass the president i would've raised a question like as an artist and when this question on this issue as banning political campaign

or the defense of the i don't know and i don't know what it depends on the circumstances of the situation the circumstances and the situation i don't know that i can make a judgment on that i think again i don't know really yet what the circumstances actually aren't what was done and for what purpose as a result it's very clear that there is an enormous embarrassment as a result of the overall situation yes sir now going into the year to think that a meeting of fifteen review board that the vital and i think the river fact that was at the meeting with the president and most of the idea that what their testimony on that and i think the statement is quite the complete on that i think the committee has a somewhat somber court contending

that the testimony was a statement was that you did a review of the states and that you accept that as the states actually and it's very much alive but this year those correct to not not all are dealing with the thing thats correct eighth of the media september fifteenth i did listen to him in july of this year now well a little more detail in italy for people who initiate their own weapon or you're listening to that bit i'm not sure whether whether i did or whether the president didn't a message to me but it was one where the other on the basis of that time it ended up they did that i should listen to him and give him the report as to its

content you know when you actually see that or went along it was i was here this was a third world to california and i came back to washington for a several day period that i believe was july ninth tenth of the lobster or approximately in that time that would have been during that trip out of your morning there's no question that they are now out and what form of evidence that it was a real it was a was it except for when you were visible long was that it's a real it's a regular tape roundtable real in a box you listen to this year oh

that's correct here and while that's her and you are within the liver too you were doing well and it was delivered to me at the european against office that i was using what the reason i was back there was to spend some time reviewing those files and i can take out and those are video be up in the attic and i was over there and they provided me with an office to work and when i was not in the file in the papers delivered to me at that office was elected this time this particular thing the colors i had already heard as i indicated the march twenty first take the president as he has said had already listened to some of the other tapes this was a tape that he had not and

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