1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-10-09; Part 3 of 3

it's been and that i would be if they were in violation of the reasons is the answer is sixteen which created his presidential campaign activities of the nineteen seventy two as that plan may relate to illegal unethical it is clearly limited to nineteen seventy two heroes extended for debate on the senate floor about whether the resolution should be amended to extend beyond nineteen seventy two resolution was my soulmate so we're dealing with nineteen seventy

two but it seems to me that we have a problem here of forgettable beyond illegal and into an ethical or undesirable the true value judgments and highly subjective an amazing new benchmark not sure that you can decide in the extract a particular course of action is unethical or undesirable place and that made some years ago unlike that statement the sort of fully understand why the next line questions that no way to circumvent the mandate all the resolution which created a four jurisdictions committee but rather to service some other guy this committee and making those judgments on whether certain conduct is undesirable

unethical as distinguished family as buckley you entered into considerable power play with senator wyden particularities uncertain instances of political ads and dj to hear him say that well it's tough or even some suggest little defense against certain matters that have been abused in this record would be that the democrats did it to maybe as your that's not an answer for that i am searching for some basis for a comparison very excellent question worker we do with additional measures objective analysis we need five

thank you political communities information about that one a position of the alleged on this kind of reporter to encourage the question what point what is the standard of conduct and politics and where you haven't given as much so far as well as what's to that it has one member of the committee be happening here i'm sorry i don't think people are to this committee's hearing were conscious that political information and the effort that made the documentary of that

on a telling point just a moment ago you were remember it it didn't work for me and the violations that a lot to inquire also in the conduct that they believe that the name may be unethical or undesirable now if that's so there was a general opinion in the political community of families at her age that gathering information and the surreptitious way to put a political espionage was the nominal an ordinary thing to do or even not unusual like many religions other instances of the previous year this podcast will probably cut off it was an expert witness

say not withstanding you mentioned particular information based on her to have an opinion not sir no problem as an expert witness but if we we're trying also that's probably what would happen that would be the next step but i gather you weren't just it easier correction the best practice in politics together information surreptitiously or secretly or deceptive yes not only are many ways to gather information about the opposition's position that i'm not circus the usual case going back to sixty four is a volunteer with an organization for some reason is this war and he goes to be a

lawyer it really is you even the other candidate the oppositional way of information rather than to another line is is that there is a way to be like the argument part i think it should be troubling for some way to find out if it's gonna be a legal organization describe some with some precision but what what is your value judgment you think that example young ladies a secretary who thinks that her boss is on the wrong track and she decides to convey information the other side op ed to be a violation of law here it would be extremely difficult situation

i think it is unfortunate and its effect on life is let's talk about the pack a lot of women were all aware of our imperfections but we also are aware and effort training even if it is a fact of life doesn't have to be a fact of life i'm speaking still love the example you gave us a sectarian side to spell it leaves the opposition without money or voluntarily leaves as odd things as though i think what happens in the political arena i think the books are filled with it happening up on capitol hill of employees have been the person on to the authorities and i think the executives downtown is lola i think he's just walk around washington needs at the arms of a number one thing

about it i have no practical it has to stop this type of thing she come up against a fundamental constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech the right to exercise the franchise well we're not dealing directly with a vote we are constantly dealing with a question to address that one they engage in political activity according to the dictates of his or her own actions white knit the american actions someone would decide that they owed a responsibility to disclose certain information assuming that it was not spectacularly less uncertainty and help desirable maybe the practical question so i think what you're telling me is that i know transference of information secretly or surreptitiously for what alimony is in your opinion of anonymity may not only politics in government

politics and business in this synagogue on how we stop the phone business and you won't you know when you get into this thicket and we get into that regularly encounter is deciding that something huge bet something a little less is probably not only go on the next step beyond that are we not only even am all i wanna get into this most of the shadings of purity we get into a conventional technique usually move up or down that spectrum and draw and so our work for him to decide that this be on this what you will not pay as we agree about that time honored tradition of congressional technique that we start out by saying that it ought to be a legal to engage and pay just for the sake of serving opposition political espionage we could do that monologue a lot of pain i suppose you could go and

then you have to spell out what would constitute the illegality a massive amount of automatic step that gets into another band of the spectrum regime are equally undifferentiated legally they should be unlawful surreptitiously gain documents without the knowledge of the owner of the photographs in the liver and the opposition that would be specific and i think it would be a violation of the aesthetic as well but i think that would cover in that situation i don't know any other situations i don't either it is and a particular runway i'm a politician and my father before me my gran orange politician my mother was a politician a

member of the congregation and always tell when i still politics sometimes steve i think that i have not not exaggerated view of his service and responsibility to serve maybe not all her life but to serve i think of the early pages you go sir limestone or whatever they do but politics that is citizen participation politics is gonna continue to take a bomb or if we leave this business of understanding that's the waste so it always happens and that's what's gonna believe about what he's been doing about it i'm not and you suggest interior experience and familiarity with the subject up and you suggested we change that attitude and perception of politics showing weekend began a political espionage

and he was in the other lung not really we were talking today intending to talk about past week thirteen letters in and no accusations that they belong in the same bag of tricks that all interest and i'm not sure that that i see you know that that would be illegal abortion can go a whole range of generations but it can talk about i'm a taxicab driver today documents that are going to be turned over to the opposition to talk about the situation of printing school is literature about thank you demonstrations

promoting people that demonstrated peacefully or violently carrying signs that are unflattering or ego on american you legislate against those things or give us any suggestion though where they fall on the spectrum what about this push to me that politics is taking a bomb or go into some of that money for the first day earlier this season i had i think you've been doing a job for the past three months example that we may create as a result of these hearings and minds of the public this week we have mixed reactions and witnesses say that that may be the greatest contribution mayor saying that it

probably will have a contract that politics and the solution so that coin like most points has two sides we're a legislative body and well public information an example as one of our legitimate implied powers might use an executive order to raise as one of our implied powers it's not our principal obligation our principal obligations recommend legislation i gather an opposition recommend any specific legislation that we might take account of an hour or most likely you've brought forth about the book here in the course of your testimony which have never seen a know nothing about but my curiosity will permit me not to ask you what it so that this is a series of news clips

and the nineteen sixty four campaign in west virginia in nineteen sixty four well like right now jurisdiction executives this game is about mr jimmy wong and any on the shoulders senator aiken only senator aiken induces howard says don't despair there's a great reservoir of evil in the world and we're not about to exhaustion and i'm sure we are

in fake outlet in connection with this witnesses' testimony for just a moment when i'm through and it is true that the mandate of this committee does not extend beyond nineteen seventy two except to the extent that suggested that is not only of value a subject the quality of immoral or undesirable assisting with legal weekend edition from npr news to certifying relevant portion of our record to the standing jurisdiction committees and so you're not limited to nineteen seventy two father and the matters that have been made here and development association the fact that things weren't all sweetness and light in nineteen seventy two doesn't mean look close ties to happen in other elections that saw

usually that don't you think it's all right to do some of things you did because i've been done in time and i have to say that on this point the other members of this committee an interrogator you mr msall that you an expert in political activities and in cars unless you certain about the political questions as a nation you think you are committed to a political icon

he used campaign funds will receive buy it for that purpose when our persons and whereas an ocean apart my answer would be no no testimony that well you will think it's alright right mo to all it's going to take to sabotage the campaign of a person seeking presidential nomination all it's the last item on his skill activities by

the obama campaign and welcome i think it is it is because i think you know a lot of testimony before this committee that the president said it doesn't it comes to disrupt and one thousand i don't think anytime we disrupted the campaign of sentiments well no one knows you were cranking i think again is it is within his rights to gather

intelligence on the opposition i think that the method that he goes it certainly makes a difference penetration infiltration of an opposition's campaign headquarters trains that type of thing i don't see anything illegal about that and a section that i i don't see that live around in the session and i do you do see there's appetizers disruption and wind the new law is all about that about the ambiguities of you what's going on oh

yeah the airport if we let you're welcome well anyway you can go you can only go out with concerns are complex about was about a disappointing what you get i have no problem with a person's was a decision you have no problem with thousands well you can so you have to come to caucus all accounts thompson's i can say that the absence of that and that had to do with

this uprising against thing and only that notion of farm only slight the pages all right and then returned to the muskie campaign organization an eleven point lead civil war canales was for the committed to real it was big news well i don't know whether that cell was about one album that this is

what the justices said that the lives of men is accused of prosecution for the spiel in the word so a pentagon papers some technicality that the amount made you question about to start because you so narrow margin he still papers in their hand thank you now the lungs and then sharon wilson was his letters that you take out of the wall and all that

and then i'll return the documents to go slow on immigration and a lot of registered a lot of the committee to reelect several so badly sixty seven dozens of iraqis i have no idea how many there were well you know this is it area since nineteen sixty four not much if anything western europe or the us can you chose the

medicine when you can be a parent of the top political ok to prove it you're fired i believe we're in an all new investigative somebody else i'm asking about elective politics of them that your investigation what you've been through epic and made it a real like that and what you mean is the new black person stops in other words can you name a single concrete contribution you've made an audio cameos in the political life in europe occasional political process will

you know you can take your parent that one of the best by only one question for that was that well maybe not have their message fusion gate of this committee i hate my theory is that a candidate is over right and in the big problem for him to gather intelligence on the opposition and i think it's done in most if not all right well out of the campaign was run so for example about their campaigns just like didn't want to you know any intelligence and the whale i refuse to accept the theory that would also add them martyrs mosque was in every generation market the meritorious and watch him why did all the

greenman are saying anything that i was in the lead so far the question whether or not the russians are as i understand it there you don't really true cause any disruption human nature well read us that one comment is being football season new console ll season coming from ice on it how about the public record don't you think that's a fair place to go on anything that is a matter of public record and then in the course of an election as research

shows most of them and that anything that isn't and it is not a matter of public record thousand dollars per year that year that you were a new gm much of that was public information which you a major that was a matter of public record and you say this is in and photograph than taxicabs and plants and that human rights record you were in residence that was not on the public record carter center i didn't have any designer when i started this i had no idea what would evolve from what i was interested in is what i was asked to do a center of position papers of staff list that kind of human in a resident in the public record you had been arrested and that was not a bill through

normal channels to the ball it was emotional is this the first time the base and this is the first time is this the first time that you have conducted this type of an operation where you receive papers from the spot a potent weapon and turn the results of your work over to a ticker individual political pieces you've done that senate as far as politics goes the first time i have been saved and successfully penetrated the communist party of the ku klux klan the mafia and the films and worse and the same with a plan similar to the

us he's always the same but this is a first this committee you know really which is the whole country or our discussion but this is the first time that you've done that i got to know it it's not nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty four of a global economy he's actually was first the new recruits have a lot of it that would say that there was some of that nineteen sixty four campaign virginia i had people reporting to me that were working for the democratic candidate

obama and he had my people reporting to him so this was done not only the muskie campaign friday regulars first ban on foreigners and also you know it was performed in nineteen sixty four when you the others were you and so on the bases everybody does it and say listen i say it's common that political intelligence gathering and political espionage has carried on and most political campaigns let's

listen he's the chairman of a witness who would follow mr buckley which is mr michael mcguire away his counsel was frank had eight louisville kentucky is unable to get through the committee until about four four thirty and therefore we are unable to produce witnesses to family at this time i thought that was that was due to constrain make the base in that i'm someone in creative audio it is not that though it's set in the abyss on that distinction between deception

deceit oh well nor welcome to know about that with the peace deal that was then but to mention his position that espionage and intelligence gathering as part and parcel of the american political process well is it and also to what degree is it isn't summer questions have their elicit answers that senator baker in particular emphasized in his questioning of mr buckley but despite those of nasa not impose some bumps some of them to our guest expert for the union mike mcallister ms mclester trying is a political scientist at the eagleton institute of politics at rutgers university is president of baker in a blister associates a political consulting furniture here in washington is ron advises

candidates in the planning and running a political campaigns and as such they worked on campaigns at all levels and tennessee all while new york maryland missouri california and many many other states like to begin with mike the obvious question john buckley says that espionage is routine in american politics uranium is a routine does everybody do it i don't think so i think it's an aberration i think it's an exception when it happens i don't think it's routine at all and i just disagree with what was the book visit ok now you make a distinction between espionage and intelligence gathering by an outside actually one intelligence on on the opposition we often try to get as much intelligence and through research about the opposition about the candidates as you can but the things he was talking about planting people in opposition headquarters general espionage or that i tried to

become for years for candidate i don't think that's done very much of american politics it what is not done is had not done because of the great ethical standards of people in politics early on or some other areas well i'd like to say yes to that but that really wouldn't be fair i think it's not it's not useful it's too easy i think when you talk about espionage james bond type atmosphere that mr buckley i think would have us believe prevails in american politics that there is value to the type of information might be able to get in that were obviously there's information that we can get a copy of the budget opposition candidate showing where certain outweighs even ago how much for televisions in a copy of a pole but that's not the candidate for you get from low level volunteers and campaign what about the kind of information

about police that as an example it was getting out of the year the musky stationary bikes itinerary scraps of speeches this kind of the questionnaire the streets by his actions since he started showing up late for the appointed drops i find i'm time you know let's say that you might request they're not necessarily as you as an individual you assemble of the professional out in politics within a political campaign push marks and has questions raised in a hearing today the person walks in and says lot i'm for your man lester and yet the opposition is just offered me a nifty job and their campaign headquarters and would you like for me to go in and take the job worthy opponent now get all your permission i can allow for military honor of their races but would you set what should be said in years well as a hypothetical situation i think that was a crow fortunate to have to face i don't think i could live with an effort

to be a double agent dylan suggesting and why cities so you just kind of bringing information i don't really think it would happen if you thought the other guys i think that look i have a question that senator baker is taken down the next step where you were prisoners and commending volunteer to be a spy but it's somebody who worked for the opposition is saying the light and is now in favor of your client and says look i have the va secretary to the campaign manager of your opponent i know the poll cite fact i have a copy of the goal of a complete budget that question marks in which you say get out of here get out of my sight that's tomorrow for you to even offer that sort of line or is that in and the real world would people in them it's a new person i now have in the real world with professional say honestly i'll be glad to look at the polling is rooted in the real world of professional would say yeah but they say because that profession was enabled as he believes

in his campaign and i suppose you could argue that the secretary seeing white is our candidate getting messages are talking about them it's the just the way the information is gathered as we have to go on is not the information itself in other words you would say that if you had walked all that you would want anybody to break in and get right right i think these are tough questions but i think and most practical situations the information we would get about an opposition candidate is required in very dreary and varied always research voting records scott as the value of espionage act question a question that practice of being carried on because there really is no value to a sadly in most campaigns up probably should note

that presidential politics is different kind of politics because the press as almost a hundred percent attention on presidential politics all the time that small thing to magnify couldn't get volunteers infiltrator might be accepted even if we know what about this interesting places that the bubbly right which was that an enormous defense has written what he did was that after all the edmund muskie was a candidate for president united states nothing that he does is private including newspapers and that this was a justification for gathering intelligence information he even the method that he used to do that back then except that a candidate just like a football coach or anybody else i think should be allowed to privacy and the right to plan make the best use of his money in time his position papers et cetera

in strategic ways i think politicians and the press in a republic property and they are under scrutiny but i think the president nixon defends the confidentiality of the president it that you could easily defend the confidentiality of a candidate who is preparing a campaign as professional who runs campaigns were loaded going to do are we going to a plane do you think this point on it for a while well candidates want to be a non politicians now i think the first election after the hearing started a candidate ran for office with a slower than the usual like me because i have never been in ordinary politics and so the honest approach to emphasize the fact that he is not a politician is it's going to be in the

present a presumption that incumbents people going around connected with politics which unfortunately has a very very low reputation of the nba in trouble republicans and democrats are fighting incumbents generally acknowledged republicans probably can do more for democrats right now are that the whole system sort of like a little closer it was a line up will include more witnesses in this dirty tricks field beyond that the committee is again juggling his schedule and bigger players learned that the future may include some big name from the campaign of nineteen seventy two the committee this week for the first time will investigate charges of democratic dirty tricks in the nineteen seventy two presidential campaign in effect the senators will be following on the testimony of another star witness is a turnabout parliament a former presidential chief of staff alleged in this whole incident last summer haven't been in charge of participants in a demonstration

against president nixon in september of nineteen seventy two were recruited from his opponents los angeles headquarters phillip tarr california coordinator for the mcgovern for president campaign will be questioned by the senators about use of phone banks in the mcgovern headquarters to recruit those demonstrators before tour the committee a scheduling mr for michael mcnally also known this adventure to an alleged spy in the camp of hubert humphrey another democratic candidate us soldiers are scheduled to hear from some really big names in a campaign organization mcgregor who headed the committee to reelect president obama was senator muskie's campaign manager and to i'm a veteran campaign officials five megawatts and gary hart the dirty tricks things will be interrupted for two weeks and the senators recess from october twelve twenty nine this means the committee will go beyond its original of amber first deadline and even after that was scheduled to hear two or three weeks of campaign financing testimony i will

be back tomorrow night with mr mcmahon always testimony until then for our guest mike mcallister and for him back in the day i'm jim lehrer thank you and goodnight from washington you've been watching devil the devil videotape coverage of the hearing of the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities this program was made possible by grants from the corporation for public broadcasting and the ford foundation as a production of that division of the greater washington educational telecommunications association say new team names fb