At Issue; 43; A Conversation with Stewart Udall

the national educational television network presents at issue a weekly commentary on events and people in the news at issue this week in washington a conversation with stewart udall the secretary of the interior of the united states talking with secretary of dollars the man who reports on the interior department for the washington post and author of the recently published book taxpayers they wrap jo used to ship secretary of the interior stewart udall is domain is as big as all outdoors he has been called the secretary in charge of everything he oversees half a billion acres of federal lands he is in charge of a watered the sopping project that may someday indeed make the desert bloom he is the government's landlord for half a million indians he has personally embroiled in controversy is between the advocates of public and private power is trying to get congress to provide more money for parts and right now millions of americans are

visiting the national parks but he helps to oversee mr yigal is frequently in the midst of controversies but he seems to thrive on them mr secretary what is your big controversy this week well you do is we have more than one i would say that they are at the moment the concerns or attempt to this entire area electric power transmission and do what to connect inner connect the plunger we're the southern california and hopes of its southwestern fact we have what if we can persuade enough people to compromise we would put together a combination trends of ford transmission lines it would cost nearly three quarters of a billion dollars and it would give eleven western states one of the most modern highly integrated like the park systems in the world is the idea here to send power down to southern california from oregon and washington the times when these dates don't need it and then the reverse the process has this was a good is

that this is part of it but you have the fact that big live the great hydroelectric river the room with the greatest volume and drops the fastest is a columbia river and i have a surplus a power they're all there in the air during her during almost to the yearly state will be most of the year when we get the big dams built rubin agreed to account on the columbia river and then in addition to the surplus power you have that the bridge can be produced the columbia river in parts of the southwest you have to do some are loans for air conditioning and pumping water you have at a peak load in the summer and the in the northwestern of the people in the weather the truth in exchange par back and forth and then save enormous amounts of money in the saline very low costs are for everybody isn't this project has really looking forward to the day when you may be able to send our clear across the united states from the

east to the west coast or williams this is what we're coming to and one of the proposals in this package that we're presenting is director at long distance transmission or a thousand miles a director at the end of this long long live without interruption and you can a cheap tremendous economies and we foresee the day in fact the soviet union the scandinavian countries already ahead of us in this you know when you have cities like new york and chicago in around chicago on the west coast will be connected to an integrated system so just unusual electric plant to the optimum of capacity this sounds like a great advance a great idea why there's so much controversy over over billions or controversy here really comes from the fact that you have a battleground practice fights been going on for fifteen years between the advocates of public and private power what i've been trying to say to

these people is that when you we've now reached a whole new period from a technological point you were to integrate the public and private systems which is what we're talking about in the in oregon washington montana idaho california arizona nevada when you put together all of the private system and the public system that you literally and to actually get five minute for this fight can be divided as a bonus benefit for everyone and then therefore some compromises necessary and there's some people on both sides here really don't want a compromise would rather every argument to keep their organization's going i would want to be too harsh in my criticism i think all of the people who are still arguing promises conditions and so and so some say simply the federal government ought to normalize the those who buy the federal government would be protected and others in the past have said that to their against the building of any

federal lines were quite naturally than compromise plan we've come up with is for four lines with about forty percent of the money being put up by the federal government said it was it was putting up ten percent to private companies put up fifty percent of it the benefits in this matter now is before congress gets on a decision by congress to provide the federal funds and authorizing legislation is needed the decision that spending why at the moment is whether congress will appropriate about fifty million dollars to get the project started as an inspector do that this year ah well it's all primates ready and i think this is the year of decision you don't make that decision if you are thinking of me two years ago a new plan could be for her isn't this also the year decision on such legislation as the wilderness bill and they land and water conservation bill which would provide money to move to buy additional land for parks what what is what's happening there you come to a point and there's been

debate on the war is bill for eight or ten years the conservation fund bill is something that we produce during this administration and the store bought it come to a head in this this congress will either be in my opinion a historic congressman conservation point of view because the wilderness bill the conservation fund bill to save the outdoors and to help the states get in the field liza legislation will be remembered fifty years from now as having significant in terms of art land policy and our people to lie and relationships what why is it so hard to save the outdoors well it's not only a matter of the fact that you have competing interests of different groups that that want to use the outdoors in the western part of the country the mining interests the timber increase that raising people they all have interests which actually they're going to protect them know when you assert a public interest to

buy part of the land or set of the cyber part really eastern part of the united states when you try and set aside a national seashore on a new area for national park the people on the land that release because you have to buy the land from private people who will it and make it into a public track you actually have it and inside were tested that in the western and the federal government and we taxpayers already own the land billy isn't there an effort often on the part of the cattlemen timber interests to tijuana get this land practically for nothing so they can exploit it is this a factor in the summer substantial factor because the video these interests and the groups who use the public domain when it's the national forests or the public lands a right of use

which has a basis along that goes back really to the early period of the west and when you began to say that part of this land should be set aside for recreational use primary for recreation your buyout necessity excluding are limiting their use has been unnaturally a <unk> virginia were this bill has essentially been a controversy between the conservation groups who want the right of people to use wilderness for their campaign for all the traditional outdoor uses fishing hunting and so on you know the people who just want to take it mara liasson let's leave this alone lehman and permanent condition love that you have for that purpose and the bia other people who say well we have a traditional right to my ear to harvest timber and so on that we go on to be excluded we want our rights to be retained and this is the

type of dispute in controversy that's really a classic controversy in the western partners are you've written a book called quiet crisis and you made a lot of spoken around the country about the problem of preserving open spaces with all the land that we still have in this country are we really in danger of running out of the door recreational areas and you're seventeen divide the problem of really into two parts i think of the western part of the country all of california certainly an exception that we still know in a sense have a surplus of land and the land people ratio is something that i don't worry about the present moment oh i think a lot of our largest cities do have those problems is the mississippi's it really different problem low because teddy roosevelt and his great concept of setting aside and reserving public plan for wildlife parks and national forests this happened late in our history only sixty years ago and

never in eastern party united states there's to land in public option the states have inadequate park systems more cities have an inadequate open space and none of the words and this is where the real quiet crisis centers critically around with a greater population centers nasa raising brightest ministration if we'd been made big major effort in a priority sentenced to say that that's a sea shorts and a man that we open those conservation fund bill to encourage all the states and counties and cities to get in the business of planning other out of the war is so that we can maintain a beautiful country and so we can maintain possibly the same type of people to land relationships of them so importantly our history as of yet even know since you've been such an interior has been difficult within the administration hasn't not to provide that money for the purchase of land for parts as

i recall a land conservation deal i was with these collectors for the use of the parks will be used to buy additional land for recreational purposes and yet it's very easy to get through congress of billions of dollars to the space program which many people question is a congress is not aware of these problems are the people just not excited well i think that the people haven't been excited in the past why i sense all over the country are a growing concern about what's happening to our countryside in our landscapes and that congress has been rather indignantly in the past and hasn't been as concerned as it should've been about the american out of the wars and the country's the conservation fund believes historical and for the first time we set aside a special fund that had been done before we do in our highway program and we dedicate this as a farm to saving all all kinds of outdoor

areas by the states and by the federal government so before it's too late before they're priced out of the market that we can do the kind of job that needs to be done to preserve outdoor market in the interior department seems to deal in an affront here's another front iran is near water is solving program to blue a group of russians on this country looking over what what we've been trying to do that i would get into the point where we can't take the salt out of the seawater and produced fresh water cheaply well we can can do and we have five plants in this country that are producing the largest one million gallons a day these are experimental plants were still in a pretty extensive research program and the development techniques of separating us all in the water probably late in the water and the i think we're on the verge now of making the

big jump in a very large plans which will bring the cost down sharply it's now about a year one dollar per thousand gallons if we can get it down to thirty thirty thirty five cents from all that then we have it in range of what some communities and is it tv what is the key to this of the marriage of nuclear energy without water day solving using nuclear power to the job what listeners want the things that i kind of developed a really interesting last three years are the idea of marrying nuclear energy and saving water number one number two of having one large plant that would produce wool electric power promised a turban and water then leaving soon be a very good flexibility in that a third is that they have discovered some new processes that they're quite promising this reverse osmosis which i'll describe it to protect people is a good example what these things have happened in the last

two months in this field the israeli prime minister was here you know how important water is in the middle east he went out a look at some of our plans we have a new program with lamb we have a team of our experts in saudi arabia egypt's president johnson himself requested and that we have this conference with the team of experts in the soviet union there are in this country right now and we expect to make a return visit in the next few months and so it's a real growth of interest in this project have you been able to get this congress in this project more easily than you have in the wilderness bill are you getting the money you need from congress congress is bare facts of the members of congress are really have the vision to get the program started and the

appropriations i would say up to this point have been adequate we're probably reaching a point now where the next big jump is too into a big expense of plant than we can find a community that will build a farm at the federal government itself just to demonstrate to the world that can be done was then whatever's necessary forty fifty million dollars perhaps ago one of these law large class to show that it can be done and were convinced them that to a bigger organizations like westinghouse electric and others will take up the ball on that one and you haven't simply a commercial lab can go anywhere in the world it'll still congresses have been literally in this film i don't i will say that viruses tell the programme back like any research program you can only go so fast in we'll crash would something like the manhattan project for the space project that you could move faster there's no doubt about that but considering the the right of action that apparently have been decided upon

the world you've seen congress both from inside and the outside might say before an insect into served in congress for six six years six years from alone in arizona how the earlier cabinet member look when you were sitting up on the hill and conversely out in these two guys sitting up there look to you now from the other end of the show the gun there well i think there's a very young one playing that is striking about the changing jobs is that a congressman particular dishonor can be concerned about a state but congress has to be parochial he's elected by congressional district and he asked it can find most of his efforts to taking care of the needs of his constituents and and looking after the legislation that they need and that most congressman i think this is understandable ten to

preoccupy themselves whether along the district and i have to do this and when you don't have to do it many of the best congress where cars are truly early united states congress and then they get concerned many of them were national problems i'm not saying that all of them are pro life but the whole the office itself tends to make you divulge more and more of your time to your oil industry and limit your interest in if the congressman is doing this was really on looking after the larger problems such as we climb the water gets on the fence or any of the big problems is philip connors is adequate attention to these issues well i think of three when you get really i think this is one what was intended by the framers of our constitution that balance apart leagues i get him of necessity is one of the makers of as a limited cabinet i have to thank for fifty states and i can't

look even at the problems of a single state without bouncing off are trying to fit this into a pattern of what the national interest that wherever what the long term future of the nation needs and so you you know you of necessity have to think very broadly in an and an executive from the president of course with all his leadership responsibilities is always presumably looking at what the nation needs what what the country's going to need in the next ten years or twenty five years on the other hand the listeners many of them lust see the same vision many of mrs the leaders are the ones who misunderstand this but on the other hand there are a lot of them that dont see because they're preoccupied with these immediate local concerns of the broad long term needs of the country and so you've got a way of pulling and hauling going on out of this comes the compromises that make an actual

policy but i think the president always has to be either we're far side of the more liberal in the most of congress because that's the way his job is structured you serve now under two presidents and there are marked differences in the way mr kenny operated in the way mr johnson doesn't why would say that for the way the similarities to strike me wrong the difference is what i suppose some audience well i think i think the way that they're using arms the cabinet are quite similar is anything with each of them maybelle and a great deal of ornately says it's true for the virus in the farm and its response of those are concerns they may get into the picture and a time of their interest and they have their own input into our policymaking same time i think in way in the way that they they use the cabinet the way that they help move a legislative program

but the similarities rather than the differences that strike me and i think the differences are related primarily their own background and experience and the personality and personnel in the center of this mr kennedy yeah halderman a cabinet meeting said that he felt that you for example we're not really concerned with the problems of post office song is as mr johnson helped the more frequent cabinet meetings well i think i think probably few he's gathered this just excited fighters some of their concept of the camp is quite so we're like i've always tend to agree in the lane we don't look beyond that to pray don't look on the cabinet then as a a group of advisors but rather as a group of men each with a particular problems to be done well lately i think the concept of the cabinet that these two

presidents share is that we do have certain common problems we ought to get together and discuss things but the cabinet isn't as president eisenhower kennedy use it it doesn't affect an effective instrument avoided arrest that is a national advisory board to sit down and have a bull session on the actual problems we sit down as a cameraman discuss the economy because this is something we're all concerned problems such as the economy and government and how we operate more efficiently and things of that kind of cut across all the different parties can remember still have these informal luncheons you had for a while remember you're telling me a year or two ago that you just got together informally all this went on for a couple years i think it's been nine months resources we had one of these rallies useful are these were useful i think we got through one of the now some of us do continue to have lunch had discussed you're from arizona solicitor broader

from arizona are two very different men in your political philosophies can you explain what has happened in the southwest now eis is area become so conservative what what what has gone on in your state in the last fifteen years of confidence of course the i think arizona what's happened in arizona itself in another other parts of the south is quite similar to what happened in eastern florida in that you have had because of your super climate portions number of retired people and people are well to do and that this actually has tended to have an influence on the climate i would certainly the friend of the center of the war over to say that i think is no personally in his politics and his leadership have accelerated this process in miles today but

this is a typo on plants in i think is not confine entire to the southwest and that's what's going to make this campaign very interesting the degree to which this type of conservative philosophy has an appeal american people suffer some people think there is a kind of a middle class revolt going on the country against the government against high taxes there's always been this feeling in the west the west has wanted federal help but at the same time the sectarian carriers never the most popular person in the west are these two opposing forces become greater in the country who think well i i think this is the question elections were and certain point frankly i don't sense nationwide a wall of this and i think this is basically a question of whether people are willing to accept the complex problems that

we have in our society i think that too we have big government today because we're a big country and then we have a big economy no matter who is the president likely to have the government hand and i want think this is inevitable i think when the tiber world we have to become an assistant because we're going to have to have it now we talk about his big earthy you have from strong arm and i think this is the question of whether we can deal with our problems with its the problems are cities have today and i wish our cities could handle their problems by themselves but they can't they need some help from the federal government some directions getting some financial help them and so on down the line and i i think we really have two groups of people that he won over simplifying those who see the world in all its complexity and diversity and are willing to try and the tackle the problems that you haven't except this as a framework within which to work out the problem for those who really are looking back on a

stealthy way i think there's a lot of the stuff in the boer war movement and to the timeline things were simpler they could somehow magic are some easy process that there you can simplify and reduce government in what play a small role in a line and the relaxed after all was a protection of the community is an attack on a school for highways or you name it here you have the frustrations and your job what would you say have been you've been your biggest frustration as secretary of interior and what has been your greatest success well i think we're probably maybe better he asked this question amongst them now because a lot of the things that i've spent four years nearly four years working on her are going to come to a culmination are the first day and i think the big problem we have in the country today is what turned on the overall environment we're going to have our armor in the past the conservation point of view you have people that were concerned about

saving trees are saving parks are saying wow like wow because of technology because of the growth of the country in the growth of population all these resources are interrelated and i don't think that we can wage a fight any longer simply for clean water cleaner or to protect the outdoors or protect fish a while i did the wilderness i think it's all one fight i think the american people have to get in this and see it as one big fight and i think we made some success we've had some success in the end changing its focus on the concrete we've tried has the department to help the american people see this we've tried to propose a series of programs that would help the american people understand this as one big conservation fighting to keep a beautiful country and to protect all these resources under one plant and i think this is this is what we're trying to do and i do mr secretary

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