1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-24; Part 3 of 5

the pain in addition national security situation under a situation considerable moment that the nation in the top secret documents and their apparent delivery the soviet answer i'll never was my view that heavenly as individuals i have had had done something that was completely irrational in in that like the others are operating international security setting and priscilla to either instructions or authorization and that being the case which i

considered i think well you know talk about what a prosecutor talk about if they killed him along with it an employee of a federal them unaware of financial security characteristic of the talking well the army asserts that one i suppose that i didn't give it a lot of thought that you have and a couple of individuals here with long training and experience as law enforcement or intelligence people in the government for twenty years living or seventy something years back and it just never occurred to mediate a series like that now and

now there is i will well i certainly was trying to weaken parliament i considered at the special units in the world the president's inherent constitutional are and this particular episode the reckoning in california like don't do that then within the president's inherent constitutional powers as as

spelled out in eighteen a us law that's right he's eighty eight i think i think what is normal in the press these days is perhaps at a difficult thing for any of this to the law particularly in the senate even at the time or you're going to be dealing

or vacant at the time of the campaign you it depends on how many of the facts how much of the fact that much understanding of the sifted through the daily press well i think if it is a clearly understood that the president has the constitutional power to prevent the media the trial of national security secrets as as i am spending cuts and that is well understood by the american people and that an episode like that scene in that conflict there should be a pro mr president that's right

president which was in march of this year he expressed essential in the view that i've just stay that this was an important vital national security and boring and that he considered it to be well with them the constitutional obligation and the function of the president's own more that's the perspective of post messages nice job films this relates to you some of the subject matter that i'm at this point not able

to talk to the committee about which the president has impressed with the highest secrecy classification which he feels is is very motivated national security because now we're in an end of that he has met me communicate his concerns about that the number of people and he in turn her son communicate his decision in that regard the number of people in the second round mm hmm you're welcome the break with cream you know i can't i can't speak for the president and i can only say that i was sort of in the moment to buy

well i suppose instruction from the president to relate to a number of investigations which especially in that you supervised are engaged in one where another over a period of miles spending at nine months anyway not only the information i can say when john dingell may the peterson

at the information on the photographs and all those yes sir no no last november he told mr clovis and they told him that both mr silbert mr peterson at this information and vote and i've never discussed this week it's beef between the

pittsburgh a floor vote brought under a break for lunch interrupting sam dash is questioning of john ehrlichman in a moment we will pursue the authorization for the break in at the office of daniel ellsberg's psychiatrist public television's coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after a pause for a station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service it's by the

pay off but the

posies and that continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities you again correspondent jim

lehrer as i go back to that hearing is the subject matter is the breakdown of the office of daniel ellsberg's psychiatrist he counsels and there are still asking the questions ms bair no well i don't know they maintain it an awareness of the president's constitutional powers fast but do you recall when we have

been discuss this issue i'm going to give you and they didn't take any action well oh well isn't that is marlon brandon dillon gallery in this convention i don't think you ask me whether my legal opinion was wordsworth what you ask me what i did and that's what we go that troubled me about it was that it was that it was totally an interest only won one anticipated by any unauthorized miami and that was

it that has been my husband my consistent impression that is it's not based on any personal now the new vaccine people over a covert investigation now to takeover and remains a breaking in every answer your questions no well let me review my mind right now it is

i don't know we analyse the cia operative at that that was disappointing and conservatives that's right here we are

now in this senate we were related to him thank you there is many times how are you in this edition we were and his recommendation

oh no interpretation that serviced that this was inside our previous conversation in which it was contemplated that these two men would go to the coast to do this investigation as that as the president's statement on may twenty second set the effort here was to find out everything they could be found out about people in the circumstances surrounding ellsberg in all respects about whether a psychiatric profile as such helps an investigator that situation is something that experts worry that that's something that i certainly can't second decimal point here is that the investigation was already authorized and was gonna go for that court in its literal meaning and its everyday mean is simply that as a a cover operation that is to say that you don't know by yourself as being an

investigator from the senate committee or if you want to hear the rest of the bank my concern in the region in the use of the term over here was that i was not keen on the concept of the white house having investigators and i just don't think that for me public standpoint from public relations standpoint from a policy standpoint that say that that's a desirable situation and i was i was not anxious to have anybody go in and five two white house press credentials and say i'm from the white house and i want to say that a question that is a sense in which i can see at

least of this investigation of being a covert investigation and that's the sense in which endorsed hear what i do in my in my head now if you're asking me whether this means that i had in my voice that there was going to be breaking and i certainly did not ever to remark by member committee point two is that one can see a medical thought and i visited at the bottom of the dock or a violin solo record a writer and all i know that's not so imagine those of you who've been in in private practice well recognize that there are latino perfectly legal ways that medical information is leaking if you please and that's the thing ai weiwei or another this information could be abused by an investigator who was trained and who knew he was looking for follow up that was

young mr colin powell my recollection is that requests had been authorized reporters as i've said before it was to find out everything possible about ellsberg his associates his methods is it everything surrounding this business of the material for the psychiatric profile heart i was concerned was a man matter fact i wasn't even sure until i went back and refresh my recollection we're looking at this document the middle of june of this year where this all came in sequence and when i've been asked about it perhaps even one of the committees that but i

recall simply when it just finally ranger i was asked which came first the psychiatric profile graft for the trip and what you or i could recall but you know the visibility i didn't even know the recruiters as a matter fact until i was told in the end the rather reason that your understanding somebody else i suppose a lot of this an investigation

i don't know well i don't know that whether they would be a medical record setter at a clinic where an important factor if you know that you just want that when it went in there they define it again i don't i don't think that we have the words here are our not my words they are the words of the other writers or the man that thing that thing that was important to me by the work over was that these people would not identify themselves as investigators follow the white house or anything at this time and that

there their identities were not me and unnecessarily it is as one of the members was one of a number of possibilities you're asking me to define places in somebody else's memoir visions and frankly what i thought i was improving while also

ms tejada i'm just asking no i don't recall and he is as volatile you know as a youngster

and you say okay usually goes to and now you go that well now that's about how many questions on this and i don't recall any subset of facts now i'm unstoppable phone calls a matter fact because where i wasn't there and i'm quite sure that take any calls now this question that i had with a related to the necessity of putting investigators out on the clothes to investigate over over and beyond the fbi have

the pittsburgh you know low that some time and that you had a discussion with a list of programs to young and which this specific question among the service after getting the file in july i don't recall that i came along with that there's industry in japan

and we would sit down users you're doing is very very unique now i don't i don't recall some conversation i would it would be my guess that if we had had the conversation that that would have made the memo support we don't know now that isn't that isn't ordinarily the way we did business daily time i would be asked for something like this is that they had trouble getting in to see me they want to do they want to set up an agenda is that when we

did get together we had a number of them at the white house and you recall that us to pull together a number of the papers that we have at all were all together there they now i don't think my request urine was since he was leaving although special units documentation should be gathered and one point seven to be transferred to the president's five year review them no they weren't

there is no other the receiving documents as i recall was introduced this document has been in my file and i saw where the other day and now now i realize i know i think i have it in my files this and a number of other things relating to be i don't know i do

know that at the time the mystery and leaving altogether everything and i believe he turned all those documents over the top hamas you use that young with you know the well that what actually was not on the twenty seven as i recall it was earlier the man i had an appointment with the mystery and shortly after mr dean kamen say that the white house was being blackmailed by how and i reviewed with both pro benny on out because this was all white men in my recollection what it was that mr vaughn might say what the what the national security aspects of this war again and went over the program

and in that in the light of the of blackmail a time that must have been on the twentieth and the twenty first you're not later than the twenty second mark well yeah the positions now but the conversation basically was for me to inquire mr yun get as much information it as i talk about what it was that was in effect threatening to set and he one of his generals if i may

the girls in them twenty twenty one twenty two march somewhere in there i didn't have a conversation with the president that the holy see suggesting i have had a memorandum in my obstacles and that's a yellow ball i mean it goes way way back it's because big the peaks

because biko the proof bill it's b as my

initial i don't have a pleasant recollections are you that even you know that is on the same day both were <unk> colson from you and i'd go on the assumption that the proposal undertaking but i would be very i would be successful i would appreciate receiving you by next wednesday on how and when you believe the materials good news caller yes i've seen them recently and i thought now i just have one question that others question later

but you also when you were concerned that he so what would be counted on whether that i think you respond with forty one in the middle is that right yes yes it's what i was told was that there were photographs of the interior of the awe that show that the ransacking elementary so to take place

in damascus and it is and i know that i didn't have any reason to expect i mean this is this is

i receive information a psychiatrist and in the community it was the bees he's resigning so over the years an

update i see i really like it you pursue maddox so that was a problem i'm karen

this is now it is the president's decision and obviously that's what happened clearly recall must've been coming into my house and say you'll never guess that the bounce that this thing has taken that your son has got the pictures and the way you describe it the mainland when a nervous around there he took pictures and he left to fill in the camera and when we returned to cameron to the cia developed that film was developed and then sent over to the justice department and that there was this address

and that doctor's name and libby standing in front of a place and to and we've seen this the cia against sort of traditional media companies all the homes for them to get a free developing an arranger and so they have these puppets and sent them over to the justice department but in any event i can't i couldn't tell you what and in the circumstances and then he says that one thing was counseling them on his testimony at the time he was coming before the senate for confirmation that the public transportation you told them that not all but petersen has weathered mr silverman as well now here again this is

hearsay and it's it's only as good as the best tomorrow i'm going as being and i think the last one in the world about that us one is b since nineteen seventy one i think i think that's right

all right as joe no oh

not terribly so i think that sometime in the nineteen thirty film about libby's involved and the only connection that i had with regard to five was this fall from the secret service that said that his name had been in the possession of one of the people i don't like it the same information video was any of this information the new season i can't say elsewhere was not there came a time

when there was a there was a feeling that at least on my part based on what we've been was telling me about the unfolding events that mr mcgregor may have had some a bow and that culminated in a meeting with the attorney general the end of july so i wouldn't rule specifically discussed but just where their eye i acquired information i can i think that when you well as i say i can't i can't say any indiana i do recall discussing with the president in the comments of a very violent misdemeanor rising out of a meeting in july thirty one in the first week

the first occasion that's right we're leaving that's a vision

an unrelated covert operation of the cia or the activities of the white house investigation and steve this was no ordinary cia investigation but what he really did or related tax be included anyone that were you know we were asked to meet with the cia people at a point in time i think some months in advance of alarming rate the president made it very clear they hold special unit activity was impressed with the highest level of security classifications simply was not that i had passed that along to a young group and others but i don't

recall ever talking to either about investigations which might lead to the specialist either power or so not really the desert and as i say i can i i can't say that we have to one meeting with the cia i'm on the first i don't recall any conversations or efforts to protect that the activities of a special unit from the fbi the sequence of events

out without having talked with the president about it was not until the sixth or seventh of law that i really had a conversation with the president about that's seven and had an awful feeling for what his concerns employees ms bergman and the president's view of the office and meeting with the president for no one else can that make a fifty five minutes or just plain my question is

that was according to my notes of the meeting was basically taken to do such things and welfare reform and i was just about to come up to talk with members of congress about the hr one which was and many many others that it was a room which and related debates it is or a porsche well special investigation unit mr thompson what was the only had a wife of about sixty to ninety days it was formed in the twenty fourteen july nineteen seventy one by the twentieth of september

the president had had this officially been delighted mr hoover and the attorney general is a richly stimulating the justice department they were very much back in business in the present attorney general had a meeting and the whole the whole the pentagon papers business back of the justice or there was one investigation it carried on into the end of the year and by christmas time or the first of the year while and incidentally that one only of all one member of the heat of the you know the rest of them were it was nineteen seventy two with that i don't think anybody was thinking in those kinds of

times wisconsin they were thinking in terms of here were some people who were the white house there are long gone from the white house and a more clear but it's possible for people to impute to the white house some implication in this in this silly act by reason of their former one where i don't think anybody was taking these polls new dark secrets or that there was any of that there was anything that they might say that would be harmful media campaign the president those times or is it is july six or seven years when we talk about the cia and when i got a feel for why it was that i had been asked to sit in this meeting that mr holman and i met with right there we gave

him a second and it wasn't as crystal clear well i mean one sign of scientists agree with me the interpretation statement that you're getting but that the facts that that morning mr olson renee the president wants to set a meeting now i did that mr cuomo lead the meeting in party the president's message to the director and to the deputy director and i was very much a moderate let me just a second and pretty much less until they're evolved from the meeting eight figure out what the what was the conversation a clear impression that they might be about and so the conclusion of an exemplary was that there was an actor at the fbi would sit down together and talk through what the problem it with

afterward guess afterward i learned from a prayer that his concerns were as they are set out there in the state that this associate unrelated to the watergate many ways there might be cia operations which would be on and you have to understand that right at this time we were experiencing massive leaps in the air so that the fruits of the fbi investigation might go up being a morning newspaper on time magazine mortar pit the concern there was that the fbi was it would come upon information right in the fbi files and you read your newspaper in the cia would be comparable it is football you

do that way that you get from attending a meeting of the six or seven right she stated it within a few days i was there was a way to about the imax your best witness on that effort all about that and i got things secondhand up to as they say six or seven july when we had a great conversation two to ensure that the activities of special investigations in went out and i felt that there were standing in nineteen seventy two i don't recall a new set of specific instructions and it is a test that's fine i'm not aware of a clown or stations or any specific instructions from mr gray or anyone else

to look out for this area or stay out of the syrian think that there were internal instruct mr young secretary was to be interviewed by npr and yesterday his office contacted her to make sure that she knew about the standing instructions that the special units activities or not the biggest blow you know eugene conversation with you so

that's you know a specific instructions to keep their special investigations unit is activism and oh wow i really didn't want to buy an internal activism but there's a very specific very strong very poignant use even threatened to receive watergate yes sir you are six mr orr no i think you have misunderstood

we had a meeting with mr helms was the wars that don't want you there were eight series of conversations then as was all happening between awards and has to break the conclusion of those conversations came around the sixth or seventh of july the president then top with mr greco in his instructions to mr gray were in view of the cia's conclusion that there was no danger in such exposure and then back to me that i was to pass on instagram and mister gray was to the time the scope of the investigation so that by the sixty seven til i am i can only thing that played down for unity and the second year but me well

i think it was the eighties and not having sex you saw that was thursday the six on that day the president had determined the men are in conversation with mr gray there was no cia involvement of the local council for legal exposure yes sir i'm sorry it's the day i said that i understood from our conversation what his concerns war ii it may have a full explanation of why he had asked that we meet with mr helms and so on his back on them in the first week and use him for he obviously had a separate source of

information that he was acting on that at that time you think that there might be more that there might be cia operations which somehow or other to be compromised by an unlimited fbi investigation and really the purpose of that that to me i would want is in and how it was just it was to find out if there was any way fb