The Exchange; Interview with Mike Gravel

From New Hampshire Public Radio I'm Laura Conaway and this is the exchange. Meet Mike Gravel a Democratic presidential candidate former U.S. senator and as one colleague put it official bomb thrower in his party's presidential debates. Four of these people here will say that it's George Bush's war. It was facilitated by the Democrats. They brought the resolution up. One of them authored co-authored it here standing here. And so it's George Bush's war. But the Democrats war also after last week's New Hampshire debate and an earlier one this spring in South Carolina. The little known former senator generated a huge buzz on the Democratic party's left wing on progressive blogs writer after writer Ed Meyers Gravelle is the only candidate they feel is talking plain common good sense. Mostly they're praising Gravelles position on Iraq. Gravelle says Congress should make keeping troops in Iraq a felony and if President Bush didn't comply he'd spend five years in jail. Many mainstream Democrats consider

Greville's approach ridiculous but unorthodox ideas are a staple of the candidate's political history as is pushing others to see things his way. More than three decades ago in the U.S. Senate Gravelle fought another war with disputed tactics. In 1971 Mike reveil used a series of parliamentary and procedural maneuvers to read into the Senate record more than 4000 pages of the then secret Pentagon Papers which hastened the end of the Vietnam War. He also launched a successful one man five month filibuster to stop the military draft today in exchange. Democratic presidential candidate Mike reval is with us. We'll talk about his run for the presidency and get his take on the issues too including the war in Iraq his support for a national ballot initiative system and a national sales tax. Let's get you in to our conversation to call in 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800 8 9 2 and HPR and Senator Gravelle good morning thanks for coming in.

Thank you for having me on the line. Well many people Senator Gravel and you don't need me to tell you they're still questioning whether you're serious about running for president because you want to win or running for president because you just want to push your party to take a harder clearer stance on Iraq. What's your response to that. Wolf I want to push and at the same time I want to demonstrate to the American people that I can be a better president than anyone else running for office. Democrat or Republican and all offer leadership that will dazzle you and will turn this country around. From where it's going. 108 degrees. Where do you want to push them to. You couldn't win the oval office yourself. Where would you like to push the pushed and pushed him to end a war. They've got to end the war where as we speak people are dying and we are responsible for that that's immoral. And everybody who voted for the war including all of these supposed presidential candidates they can no longer lie. They can say well I didn't know it was going on then. There's enough evidence out now. They knew it was going on. And so if they do say they acted they were either incompetent and

shouldn't be president or they made a political decision that required the loss of life and they knew it. And that in my mind disqualifies them they're morally tone deaf to be president. Now to listen to the Democrats in that debate last week. All of them it seems said I oppose this war and when elected president I will end it and I'm doing my best right now to end it so they say they're against it too what's the difference between you and them. They're not doing anything to end it right now. What did they do. They got a resolution on a water bill so they could look good. It in fact is the height of hypocrisy in politics as usual. Sure they can end it here. Pelosi the speaker and Reid the leader in the Senate they will take their cues from the four people in Congress and the Senate on the House side. But I don't think he's got much suction with Pelosi but the four that would be Obama Hillary Biden and Dodd. They've got the power to force the Congress to turn around and end this war and that

means they do it. They exercise it through Reid and Pelosi. They're not doing it and so that in my mind is another let this test. They want to be president and they can't even get the Congress that they controlled to end this war. And I've given them the roadmap on how to do it. We should do is sure you're going to you're going to debate in a Senate. You have to invoke cloture. But what you do is you have a vote every single day until cloture is invoked and that lets the people find out and focus in on this confrontation and see who's voting for war and death who's voting for peace and get our troops home. Now that takes care of the filibuster in the Senate when he goes to the president he signs it. It comes back and you need two thirds start. Are you starting to lose me because there's a lot of parliamentary procedures that you're talking about. You're saying vote Congress to pass a law to make the war illegal correct. Clearly there'll be some difficulty filibustering in the Senate which means they talk

and talk and talk. Right so you can't bring it up to a vote and cloture means stop the filibuster. OK so go ahead pick it up now. So now what you do is the leader controls the calendar is Harry Reid what you do. He brings it up at noon on the first day the second day does away with weekends. You know we're going to make a little uncomfortable. No more vacations until this problem is solved. Since people are dying so now what he does every day he brings it up at noon. It's only a half hour for the vote. So there's a lot of other time to do other business for the people. And so you do this I would venture to say within 20 days within 20 days you'll see these people just turn before your eyes. Give me an example Sununu is talking about trying to reposition himself as our senator. That's right. And this forces that to happen. So it will be 20 days of this continuously every single day. You'll see that they'll overcome the filibuster. They'll get the necessary votes to pass it in the Senate. It's passed in the

house goes to the president. The president vetoes it because it's a bill that says the Iraq war is illegal and that's the way it comes back to the Congress. Now generally the way overrides take place is they'll have an override if they don't have the votes. They just drop it. The president prevails. We just saw that happen. So the president prevails. But that's not tough. That's wimpiness. So now here's how you get tough. Every single day in the rules permit this now confess it's never been done. But there's a few things that I did it never been done. They are very successful. And so all they get to do is every day at noon in the House and in the Senate they bring to override. Up for a vote. If they don't have the votes they bring it up the next day and the next day and the next day. And you'll see these people just turn between your eyes because you're talking about the people with their focus will understand what's going on. And it will be the political survival of these people if they don't vote to override the president

or if they don't then I tell you you see Republicans take control of the Congress for a generation because it will be so clear what this process is is a confrontation between the Congress and the president and of a nature that permits the American people to weigh into this confrontation and exercise their power on their elected officials. I would venture to say that would take 30 45 days. Well Laura that means that we have made a decision to get out by Labor Day and we got 120 days under the bill to do it. And so our troops are home by Christmas. And this is guaranteed to work. I know how politicians think and it's their survival and they'll do anything to survive. And that means they'll do the right thing in this case. The moral thing in order to survive politically. Senator Gravel I have a couple more questions about Iraq for you but I want to also invite our audience to join us chime in today 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Today in exchange we're talking with Democratic presidential candidate Mike Gravel former U.S. senator from Alaska.

He has a long and storied political career. He's gaining some attention now for his strong anti-war message. Mike Gravel served as the senator from Alaska from 1969 to 81. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 is the exchange number. What do you think about what you've seen of Senator Gravel if you watched the debates last week. What do you think about what he's saying on Iraq today. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800 892 and HPR. I will take a little different tack with you. Senator Gravel we've been focusing on how the Democrats have been as you said wimping out on this Iraq war. The concern you heard at the Republican debate is that if the U.S. just leaves just says goodbye the country falls into chaos. Even worse democracy has no chance at all taking root. All of a sudden it's this ripe a terrorist breeding ground threatening our security even more than it does now. What do you think about that. They're all wrong totally wrong. First off we heard the same thing during the Vietnam era.

If we leave the dominoes are going to fall. The whole area is going to go communist. It did not happen all of Southeast Asia did not go communist. And when we left they were able to put their act together as best they could. Now what will happen in Iraq. There may be a surge in violence. My God. If there's a civil war going on. Generally civil wars are won by victors. Maybe we can arrive at something else. And this is where by getting our troops out we can now take the initiative with really aggressive diplomacy. The other facet of this who make this statement is American arrogance. Stop and think. We're saying that we're the only ones that can figure this out. We're saying that the Iranians are stupid and that the that the Syrians and the Lebanese and Saudi Arabia that they don't know what's going on. These are the people that have a stake in the stability of the region. And so they're going to weigh in. The era the Saudis with the Sunnis the Iranians with the Shiites and in Obviously other influences on the Kurds.

And so they're going to use their best offices to try to quell the deal cut down. Now you've got a core of what you would call the al Qaeda and what they will do is you'll see the Shiites and the Sunnis turn on them because this wanton killing by let's say a foreign influence and that's what I would call that is not going to wash. So there will be some problems but you can deal with those problems a lot better than you can with our troops there. And what happens we're occupying that country. Eighty percent of people want us out. So that means when you get these insurgents not the al Qaeda who then cause a loss of life they bleed back into society you can't find them. And that's the key to it and that's how we fought the Revolutionary War. Let me fill up two points with you one you described it if the U.S. got out other interested parties would help Iraq shape its future help or battle it out within Iraq for control. I mean you could get on

both happen in a different country. You get no choice in that war. That's the mistake that George Bush the day he went to war and there was no reason to go to war. So there's a mistake that was made. How bad a mistake. We don't know how much is it going to cost us. We don't know we just know it's a mistake. But what you don't do is you don't keep digging the hole deeper. You turn around and use a new approach and that new approach is diplomacy and get American troops out of there. That's the only way we've got a chance to bring about stability in the area. Senator Gravelle some people say though you can't conduct diplomacy in the midst of chaos. So this so that American security is needed because you can't conduct diplomatic discussions and people are being armed and that's a rationale for American imperialism here. It's a little bit like you can't yell fire in a theater. And what. And of course that's been proven that hey you got to tell people where the exit is right in the middle of chaos. There's the eggs at the sides not on but there's the exit. And that's what we need. And so I just don't buy that for a half a

second. One more thing I've heard you make the analogy before with Vietnam you know gee we are worried Vietnam would capitulate to communism and the whole Southeast Asia would become communist and it didn't. And yet Senator Gravelle the Vietnamese seemed focus on getting the U.S. out of their country. They didn't have a stated goal of destroying America killing Americans across the globe. Vietnamese didn't get into an airplane and fly over here and smash into buildings in New York City in Washington D.C. So it feels different. It is different. It is very varied. Vietnam was a backwater of the world and so it wasn't all that serious. Its impact was serious on us morally. Now with respect to Iraq we created the training ground for the al-Qaeda terrorists there there. Had we not invaded they would not have come forward. Now the argument that they're going to come over here and do it. That's ridiculous. Terrorism has been with mankind from the beginning. And so we deal with terrorists not as a set piece

war we deal with it as a police action as an intelligence action and we get off of what we're been doing. You know the reaction to 9/11 has been horrific. We have done more damage to ourselves than than bin Laden ever thought he could do. And to our to our liberties to our way of life just stop and think when you go to an airport right now you think that's working. I mean they've done studies that it doesn't work. But what it does do is it gets you used to not having your freedom gets used to being searched easily it creates a sense of fear. We Americans for the last 50 years have been induced to fear and fear and fear whether we fear terrorist whether we fear communist whether we fear gays will we fear blacks anybody who's different immigrants we've got to fear them. You know they're going to come over the border and get a bill. This is really unfortunate to what it's doing to the American culture into the American psyche. FDR had a great statement. That was when he when he faced the

problems of the depression which were on the order of what we face today. You have nothing to fear but fear itself. And I as president when I'm elected I will call upon the courage in all of us the courage to face up to the threats that we have in the world and deal with them intelligently rather than reactively destroying our democracy out of fear. Well let me ask you this then if what you say is true in politicians for the last 50 years as you said have been fear mongering the public. Why does the public buy it if we're so such a great people why are we buying this fearful method when we're buying it because we're a great people. True but we're not any better than anybody else in the world. We're truly not. And that's one of the things this false triumphalism. Just look at the statistics. We're nowhere. Number one in anything that counts whether it's education whether it's health. We're down in the middle or in the cellar. And of course we are number one we're number one in weaponry. We're number one in spending consumer spending. We're number one in debt government

debt personal debt and corporate debt and we're number one in the people we have in jail and of course because our politicians politics as usual continue to lie to us. We're number one in delusion. Senator Gravel It sounds like a perfect point to stop and take some calls. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 is our number 1 800 8 to HPR and to Antron first for Catherine has been waiting. Hi Catherine go ahead you're on the air. Are are so hot. Are really called on how wonderful we are or how little I learn from your grock or provoke are completely wanted or one question or comment.

Keep in mind you take one question go ahead. Well first of all how how close. You know kind of like. Here we know common Kircher never grew up. OK. Senator first time I've heard that and you know so you're right. I had not thought of it in terms of McCarthyism. You're exactly right. And also Palmer ism that occurred right after the first world war. It seems that we have a weakness in this psychologically and it comes from triumphalism we think we're so much better than anybody else and that is what deludes us. She also asked about your position in the debates and I did want to ask you about that Senator Gravel. As I understand you almost weren't allowed into that may South Carolina debate. What happened there and then you were on stage last week here in New Hampshire. Well no CNN cut me out and union leader joined the TV they did cut me out of the debate in South Carolina was no problem. No. But but here's what happened. They cut me out. We put out a release one release that this was unfair. This was

censorship and the reaction across in here in New Hampshire and in other parts of the country. It was enough to cause them to change their minds so they then made a decision because they told me and they were very gracious in the local TV station Union-Leader I heard nothing but. But then they also told me nationally at CNN oh don't worry you're now in the debate. You qualify. I don't know what was behind it. I do know this that I was a maverick when I was in the Senate. And of course when I left I didn't have I wasn't a lobbyist and I know that corporate America and the let's say the normal the normal politics really we're happy to see me leave for the very simple reason that they don't want to be embarrassed and there's so many things that they do they're so ridiculous and so easy to embarrass but they're not bad people. It's the structure of representative government that's at fault not the individuals.

In my case I went to the Senate and everything basically that I accomplished I did in four years and it was after that it is just treading water. And I'm so happy that I lost because there but for the grace of God go I being corrupted by the process. And I wasn't then when I was there or to a degree I'm like anybody else. I mean taking money and so I could yeah I could play the game. But but I wasn't happy as disgusted. So when I left office I was totally disillusioned. I didn't appreciate my accomplishments till much later. And so I went out into private life just tried to make a living but I am a student of history and of human governance. And so that's when I came up with this idea that the answer here is in just only two venues for possible change. One is the government where the problem is the other is the people. So you have to go to the people but what is it you go to the people with. We all think that

the power is voting on election non-toll enough and manipulated manipulated by the campaign. And you don't have much of a choice. So you vote for a personality that you really don't know what's in your hearts and minds. But now the answer is is to understand where the power the central power of government is lawmaking. So if we can make people lawmakers they can make a decision on all of the policy issues that affect your lives and that's what's the most important thing of all this generation we're going to die. But what's going to happen. We have to leave a legacy with the people where we've completed the work of the Founding Fathers. This is the let me see if I've got it right. The National Initiative for democracy. Correct. And what it is it's a federal ballot initiative to put the tools in place so that you Laura and everybody to hear my voice can make laws on things that affect your lives. In partnership with the elected officials who will then do a better job it's a win win situation.

I definitely want to ask you more about that Senator Gravel but I want to take another call before we have to go to a break so let's go to Brattleboro Vermont. But hold on we are going to follow up on that. This is Tom. He's in Brattleboro. Hi Tom go ahead. Hi Mike. Hi how are you doing. Very good. Very good. I know battle abroad. You were dead. Unfortunately I missed. Oh I was down there when I was 10 years old. I mean I had an uncle I had an uncle that lived the battle bro. He was a butcher. I doubt it. Hey every time I hear you I have an epiphany. You know you're one of the few guys out here that's making sense. I mean you and Ron Paul. Different message. All sensible. Nobody else is making sense. Nobody's listening. Oh just heard Lieberman yesterday sounds like he wants to run. Let's go to he does want to nuke Iran and he's got he's got cohorts running for president of the United States. It's a sick situation. And we've got to do something about it.

What do you think about the idea that Iran could threaten us with nuclear weapons. This is what the Republicans said now. Well the Democrats did not agree with this. It's ridiculous. Well you know they did they did say the same way they did. No it's ridiculous. Iran has never been started a war in 110 years. They have no ideas for expansion right now. The only thing they got into a war is when Saddam Hussein invaded them what are they a threat to us. One. One missile from our Trident submarine Just one could destroy all of Iran. One missile could destroy all of North Korea. What is the threat to us. We've got 19 of those submarines and plus we spend more on our defense than the rest of the world put together. What are we afraid of. We've got a bad case of paranoia. Tom thanks Tom for the call. You know Senator Gravelle I your fortunes changed since those two debates. You know South Carolina New Hampshire in June giving you exposure to national is like I was hit with lightning on the South Carolina debate. You know I was in that

both personally and otherwise and all of a sudden we started raising money coming in fact we've opened up offices this last week. And so it's going to change. It's going to be a slow change but people who like it encourages encourages me to Tom saying he had an epiphany. I can't tell you how that nourishes me. And so there are some people out there the national media doesn't want to recognize they're there but they're there and I need them after a short break we're going to turn to some other issues including your push for the National Initiative for democracy. And we'll get some biography of the man from Alaska. Stay with us. This is the exchange on an HP. Support for New Hampshire Public Radio comes from. You are a member is from Larrimer Clowery Spera offering a wide range of real estate services in New Hampshire and Vermont from 12 offices and online at l m s r e dord Kong. From Nathan Wexler

and company CPA and business adviser is timely and responsive. Providing assistance with aquisitions sales and succession planning to businesses 2 2 4 5 3 5 7. And Granite State College the university system of New Hampshire statewide college for adults offering associate and Bachelor degree programs information at Granite dot edu. More with Democratic presidential candidate Mike reval on the exchange on New Hampshire Public Radio and at 10:00 on the Diane Rehm Show. New advances in stem cell research and the scientific and political implications. This is New Hampshire Public Radio. This is the exchange I'm Laura Conaway. Tomorrow an exchange at twenty five and twenty five series continues with Andrew Wolinski the man behind the Claremont lawsuits. Find out more at our Web site and HPR. Leave us your comments there too. Senator Mike Gravel is with us the former U.S. senator from Alaska. He's now a Democratic presidential candidate. And Senator Gravelle

I want to just step back from the issues for a couple minutes and get a little biography on you because our listeners are just getting to know you. Now first of all as I understand you grew up not far from here Springfield Massachusetts French-Canadian parents. How does a nice New England boy end up in Alaska. I wanted to run for the Senate and my parents were very modest hardworking people and I had no particular context. I worked a lot of campaigns. But you know in Massachusetts you either you're Irish or Italian. Those are the people who rule the political roost. And so I graduated from Columbia had this. So I knew I had to put my Taproot down someplace and stay there and work it out. And so I went to Alaska broke when I got there got a job the very next day. And 12 years later I'm sitting in the United States Senate and with that Chinese proverb I love the quote and that is work hard and be lucky. And that's what I'm doing for president. I'm working hard as hard as I can.

But I got to be lucky. And it's the American people that will determine if I'm lucky or not to become president as I understand you want to go into politics somewhere like you said but you didn't have the political roots or contacts or family. You narrowed it down to New Mexico and Alaska and you chose Alaska because you didn't like warm weather that is. And I still don't like warm weather. I live in Arlington right now and I'm not happy but I got no choice. How come you got no choice. Why can't you live in Alaska. Well because it would make sense. I was I headed up three non-profit corporations that created them and all of the work I was doing to try and figure out how we're going to empower the people that took 10 years I'd been at it really 15 years or more than that. I've been at it 40 years because in the book in 1971 that I wrote citizen power I was grappling with that very problem in fact I had contests an index at the end of said laws to make waves by for the people to make waves by.

So I was grappling with that but then it was only a night in nineteen ninety that I really landed on the fact that it's the people and the people in. How do you do it. It took me 10 years to write the law and I had 16 years of age and it looks very simple now but it's all there. The playing is all there for the people to just vote for it. It goes right around the government that a government can't stop it can't do anything about it. When we get 60 million American people who vote for the National Initiative about that number it becomes the law of the land and the tools are there for the people to determine their own policies about their life. Well and let's get on that then since you brought it up again. This would look like the ballot initiatives that we see in 23 or 24 states where there's five or six issues vote yes or no on x y z. So this is your proposal to make the American people more in charge of their destiny really. Very much so. And of course it's a very very great improvement over what you see 24 states. Lawmaking is a very deliberative process in all of those procedures.

There's there's no deliberation and even with that there's legislation that has passed by and large is as good as anything that comes out of legislative bodies. And when it comes to fiscal matters far and away more important the people are more conservative than their leaders because of those structure. Does you run for office only bring home the bacon I'm trying to bribe you. Well the people know you're doing that with their money. They're not stupid. In fact it's surprising that they can now I'm not talking about individuals I'm talking about a constituency. They're more knowledgeable. They're smarter than their leaders because their leaders are struck. I'll give you an example or as briefly as I can what goes on in the mind of an elected official when the issue comes up first thing how is this going to affect my job. That's not bad thought. That's political survival. That's right. But it's but it's human nature I may have kids in school that they got to pay for. Then the next thing. How does this affect the people who put the money up to get me here keep me here. Then third How does affect my party. Because if my party is in power I'm in

power. Now we're at the fourth level and we haven't even talked about the public interest. I have a couple of follow ups for you on this and then we really should go back to our callers. Senator Gravel in some states where you see ballot initiatives you see and we've seen them in Maine for example we don't have here in New Hampshire you see huge money battles to win over voters interests converging from all over the country. You know it seems like not even a battle over the issues but who can make the scariest TV ad. So how would that not happen with this giant corporate union or whatever interests you know wage a TV war to get me to vote no or yes. One of the elements of the cost because it's a package. It's a constitutional amendment and a federal statute that puts forth the procedures on how you legislate. But there's a provision in the Custers amendment that says only a natural person can give money for or against an initiative that means all corporate interest and there's penalties that go to jail to go to jail if the

if if you catch them taking money and bonuses and putting them into the campaign. But but even to be individuals who still influence may not work for corporations. I mean there's every campaign finance law there's a way to wiggle around it. There isn't there isn't. Because the alternative is to provide a sufficient amount of information guaranteed to get to them a person under this law that I've written a person would have to hide to not know what's going on. And secondly you have elections that would be one week long 7:27 everybody would be registered for life and the communications process would be everybody would receive a pamphlet. There would be a television show that would be designed on the issue and a radio and newspaper all of that by the electoral trust that would try to educate the American people and that information gets to them. No url earlier than earlier between 30 and 15 days because people don't pay attention to the issues until it's close to the vote. And so this

is all in the bill and the bill is five thousand six hundred words but people don't have time to read that. It's the same thing. If I were to sit here and lecture on how we pass a bill in Congress the eyes glaze over what is necessary. And this I think is best defined by our slogan. Let the people decide. One more question on this and then we're going to back to our clients. We could do a whole hour on this and then some. Yeah definitely. My own experience Senator Gravel living very briefly in California the night before election day I had to study I think two dozen proposals. After a while I felt overwhelmed. I felt like I didn't understand half of them and I just kind of based my vote on a cursory reading because it was probably midnight because there was you had to study it like like studying for a giant exam. I just kind of cross my fingers and hope that I was reflecting my own beliefs. I mean how would this not happen with your initiative. People just getting overwhelmed by having to decide these major issues two ways. One is what your experience was nothing compared to the 300 plus

pages in the in Oregon that was sent really. The problem is that that's why you string out the votes. You have a week long to vote and then you can only have probably 52 issues that could come up. But the example of Switzerland Switzerland right now does about four issues a year. The Swiss have is the only country in the world that has direct democracy which like we're talking about a partnership between the elected and the people it was put in place in 1848. The Swiss have four cultures four languages four religions have no resources. We're at war all the time. And since 1848 they've been at peace and they are now per capita one of the wealthiest people in the world. Now stop and think what distinguishes the Swiss from everybody else including ourselves was the fact that they brought in the people as partners in the governance of their society. It works and all we have to do is have a little faith in what's

what's the what's up. What I'm saying here is an reserved faith in the people. That's what it takes to buy into this. Let's go back to our caller Senator Gravelle today on the exchange. Democratic presidential candidate Mike Gravel former U.S. senator from Alaska serving from 1969 to 81. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 is the number and to Dublin where Rosemary is waiting. Hi Rosemary go ahead. Hi Laura. Thank you for focusing on this topic. And Senator I appreciate what you're saying and I agree with so much resonating with me. I want to know the difference between your stance and dentistry and I understand that you would make the war illegal. OK Rosemary thanks. Then just like all elected officials I've never been able to persuade anyone that tried with Dennis a long time ago because I was supporting him in 0 4 then as an elected official. I don't think he has the same faith in the American people that I do. I think that the American people are smarter than this and smarter than me and smarter than the whole darn

Congress. All we got to do is empower them so they can act in partnership with their elected officials in every government jurisdiction of the United States. That's a difference between Dennis or myself. I think I'm a little tougher in that and I think I would bring a balance a quality of leadership that I don't think would have X-1. I was his last speech. I just I just enjoyed it. He has a lot of moral content spiritual content what he's talking about and I admire that in him. And I think I have all that plus I think it can be a tough guy to get these things done. This is this is tough business governing. And we live in a very difficult world and we do have to protect ourselves and we but we can protect ourselves rationally intelligently. And like I say what I would do is call upon the courage and people and the reason I use courage because that's how you implement the rest of your virtues. Thanks for the call and let's go to Lebanon where Brenda is waiting. Hi Brenda go ahead.

Hi. Thanks for taking my call. My question is how do you propose to get laws changed that matter to the people when we do we take the same steps now as the general public to try and get lost in Princeton to protect ourselves and their nothing happened. How do you propose to get those laws. I mean that we the common people try to get implemented. I think that's exactly right. Fact is as president it would probably take a year after I became president and of course the people have to vote for this is not just the Congress at all. I don't want the Congress to vote on it. The people get to do it. And now here I have I have a lot of like my health care plan my tax plan. The Congress is not going to pass that because it takes away power from them. And it's it's often it's out of the box. But you take these plans whether it's reforming taxes health care. People vote for this in a second. They just need the procedures to be able to do this and my

vote will just be equal to any other citizens. And so some people that may not like my vote on a woman's right to choose find they can vote their way and cancel my vote. But I feel that the American people when given the power they will absolutely solve a whole host of issues in India in a month a month and a half two months. You know Senator Gravel when it's time for us to look at our health care policies here at NIH PR you know I can barely understand some of the writing so I'm having a hard time. Again I don't know if I want to be asked about health care policy the federal budget. Military decisions. I mean there's an argument that that's better left to the experts meaning lawmakers people that we elect I left Congressman to take care of that for me. That's right. And look what you're getting that that's right. What you're getting and and this is an assumption that they really know what's going on. They do but many times they can't vote. And the example is going to

war in Iraq. All of these presidential candidates to Congress know what is going on. This is a shell game and they wanted to pursue it. And we had a president who literally was off his rocker and they bought into that. Here I'll give you a figure. Fifty five million Americans did not buy into the war. Fifty five million. Now the majority of the Congress of the United States bought into it but not 55 million Americans. Doesn't that tell you something about where the wisdom is in this country. Fifty five million Americans out of a country of almost 300 million out of a constituency of 130 million cars and adults that are getting through the you don't make a decision. Let's go to Bartlett next. Laura is on the exchange. Go ahead Laura. Yes this just following up on tax reform. I feel totally disenfranchised. Senator Gravel where I say I work very very hard and I have absolutely no say in where my federal income tax dollars are spent and if every year I got something in the mail that said Would you like to spend your income tax dollars on the

environment on renewable energy on helping the elderly on education on the farm bill commodities of my choice so that I could make sure that I was eating really healthful pure food which is a big problem in this country. Right now they're trying to undermine organic standards to about 28 different ingredients. So you want to be asked these questions you want to have some say in where my money is spent and how it is spent. Yes. You know you mentioned income taxes. Go ahead Senator. First of all the only way you're going to have that is to turn around and be able to make laws that you'll miss. Again your next initiative for democracy now I understand you support a national sales tax. Oh very much so because our present income tax is so corrupt and the wealth wealthy people have gamed it so badly that the people in the poor carry the burden. But but both the income tax and sales taxes are progressive taxes. We can make it even more progressive with a rebate on that potential taxes that you would be paying for the essentials of life clothing housing medicine even

transportation. And that's a way to make a sales tax less regressive because the big criticism now is that it hurts the poor the most well is not progress. In fact the plan that I have is a hundred times better than anything that they have right now. Stop and think if you're poor you only get any benefit if you've got income supposing you're poor and you've got no income. You've got nothing you've got a choice to go on welfare go sleep under a bridge. Under my plan you would get a cash flow coming to you because you'd get rebated you get rebated what the tax would be on these essentials of life. Now you may not want to spend as much as the next person is essential. So that's a cash flow that you have and that and this lady who just called in she could now go get her paycheck and just no federal deductions in her paycheck. So she gets this cash flow plus her paycheck. And then what we have is a situation where the wealthy who spend the money they spend the most money will be paying the most tax.

As I understand if you already are quite poor you don't pay any tax. There's a minimum that you have to make sure that you pay income tax. That's right. They don't pay any tax so you don't get any benefit either because you've got to have income to get this earned income credit. So if you have no earned income you don't get anything from the government. How come a national sales tax if it's such a good idea has never flown because it dilutes the power of the Congress and regardless of how beneficial something is they will never do anything that reduces their power. How does it reduce their power. Very simply because I was on the Finance Committee for eight years and the Finance Committee and the ways and means committee we reasserted the economy of the nation. The Appropriations Committee only only gives it takes the money that the revenue comes in but we control the entire economy. And so when you take that step and every time you hear a politician or let's give a subsidy here let's help them. All they're doing is raising the tax code is four feet high. Nobody understands it because everybody has a little thing in there and that's what's corrupting and

when you think that your congressman is going to take good care of you when there's thirty thousand lobbyists in Washington who are there to take care of who can put up the money. Don't hold your breath for us solving any problems that way. Laura thanks for the call and again the exchange number is 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Our guest today in exchange Democratic presidential candidate Mike Gravel former U.S. senator from Alaska. Chime in. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. And does Senator Gravelle over to Dover where Mary is on the line. Mary go ahead. Hello. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. I applaud the senator for his common sense but I'm concerned about getting nominated by his own party. He's chuckling Mary had said to her glary I'm worried too. But you know make a difference is first off Obama and Hillary and they're piquing make sure they're on top right now a campaign

election process is linear. I don't have to be number one now I have to be number one next January. And so between now and then people like yourself who feel that I do have a message I want that message. You talk it up to your friends. You ask people to get on our Web site contribute $5 to whatever it takes whatever they can afford. I received the person the other day a cheque for $1 and it excited me more than maxing out a 23:00. He wrote the first check I received when I when I file was for $1. Again we bet these two checks that I received for a dollar each. And lo and behold it was an artist from Greenwich Village who sent the check. And all I can say is we're averaging about $70 an average contribution. That's great. Nobody's going to own me for and I'll never get the corporate interest because here's what happens in Congress the lobbyists bundle the checks they go to executives they bundle the checks. Turn it into let's say Hillary-Obama and follow the money. It's

interesting that we know that money corrupts the political process and here these people are raising millions and millions they're talking about $100 billion to get the nomination. What level of corruption have we reached. I wear as a badge of honor that I'm not kind of have millions and millions of dollars. That's an honor for me and these people are proving that they're selling themselves out by the pound. Still Senator Gravel your supporters probably would want you to have enough money to be able to compete effectively $10000000 does it nicely. Really really. And how much do you have. Oh right now we probably have 30000 in the bank and we're using personal bankruptcy before you jump into this. Oh yeah. No person and I did. I had a health problem four years ago and it was a tough year. I've got rods in my back with screws and I've got neuropathy and I haven't had a painless day for seven years. But I'm healthier than Jack Kennedy was

when he became president and I'm a heck of a lot more agile than FDR. So don't let that bother you and don't let age bother you. Keep in mind John the 23rd pope in the 60s 78 years old he was made pope and he did more to change the Catholic Church than been done in five years the only live for four years. Nelson Mandela got out of jail when he was in his 70s. Conrad odd in our left office at 85 years old Churchill de Gaulle they all came back and the second time around in a 70s and 80s age you know one thing I bring to the table which is the most important ingredient of all is I have moral judgment and I can make that judgment every day and I'll pick the people who do the job and people will be first who will get a hold of our defense posture and education will be number one health care number one. Fair taxation we don't have fair taxes climate this taxation system that I have. I call it the fair green taxation. Stop and think we're going to change this nation from a consuming nation to a savings nation like

a sales tax ID. Right. I have to ask you though about the age issue when you raised it. So I'm asking you now you're 76 years old. Seventy seven seventy seven. So 78 when I'm sworn in. So after one year I won a four year term. You would be 82 now. I'm not going to run again. I have tremendous respect for my elders and their energy and their ideas and their wisdom and their experience. But 82 is getting up there in years for such a demanding job as leading the United States of America should have stopped to think. How old do you think the leaders of the Senate are. They're all much older than I am and they're still leading the Senate. You would say they're doing a pretty bad job but they're not doing a bad job because of the structural nature. Not because they're bad people. They want to do the right thing the problem is the structurally cannot. And they give in to human nature. So no here all you're talking about is president of the United States. Ronald Reagan was now I don't have any

Alzheimer's in my family so I'm in good shape. But but I would just say this the key thing is is judgment. Stop and think Obama has got a celebrity status. He doesn't have any experience to speak of. And so and he's gravitating. I had great hopes for him. He's gravitating to politics as usual you can tell but his position on the war right now. And so here you want somebody who is young. Fine. But in most cultures they revere older people because they have wisdom and you consult with them. Well I'll do a little more than consult because I'm a pretty aggressive guy and I'm a pretty tough guy. And so as a president you're going to get you're going to get a lot. And I think at the end of four years people they'll be happy to see me go because by God he was a whirling dervish. Let's take one more. This is Josh in Berlin. Go ahead Josh. You're on the Exchange. Hi Laura. Hi. Hi. Hi. I have a question. You mentioned Switzerland. Now they

have to you. They have a universal draft of longstanding and they were able to resist the encroachment of the Kaiser in World War 1 and also Nazi Germany a fascist certainly in World War Two in a world war 1 World War Two when the Korean War we were able. In Vietnam we had the draft and you can see what it's doing to our volunteer army. It's putting the strain on them to such a degree that I think a draft the draft amendment that you helped defeat the draft I think in some ways is largely responsible for this. And you brought up Switzerland as a citizens army and they have the draft. Why don't we. Good question Josh thanks for the call and very relevant to your experience. And I and I take that to heart because what's happening today is what I planned to happen when I was draft when I was filibustering the draft we are denying George Bush the boots on the ground to go into Iran now. And of course what's causing political problem is not that we have 58000 dead bodies

know what's causing the problem is using the reserves causes political problems and we see this happen. And so this is the only way we're going. And so overall entier army makes it more difficult for president to go to war. Is that what you're saying. That's right. To go to war. And you can you can go to war but then it hurts faster because it took us 10 years in Vietnam to get out. We're now in our fifth year and we could get out now. And if the people had the power to get out last year. But but but where we're get we're essentially opposing a guy like Bush who really is in another world. What about the argument Senator Gravel though that if there were a draft as Josh says that more people would feel the pain across a broader spectrum of society and that that would cause the war to end more quickly. Charlie Rangel for example dead wrong is in favor. He's dead wrong because stop and think you'd have to have a draft for six years. The technology demands that you can't draft somebody for two years. Secondly you've got to draft women. Why not. We have them dying an

over there so I don't think a lot of people are going to put up having to have daughters drafted and having been drafted for six years just not going to happen. We can do it with a volunteer army. Stop and think. The problem today is we shouldn't be there. That's the problem. It's not that we should be there with more troops. That's how Lyndon Johnson was able to bring about fifty eight thousand dead Americans. Josh I appreciate the question. Thank you for chiming in and one last one for you Senator Gravel. There's some speculation that after the Democratic nominee is settled and if it's not you that you'll run as a liberal third party Ralph Nader type candidacy do you care to comment on that speculation. No I don't I because I think that the shot is to go ahead and get the Democratic. I love the Democratic Party. I think it needs to be rebuilt and it has to be rebuilt with some courage and leadership. And it's not getting it right now. I mean you wouldn't jump out and try and promote your ideas as a third party to always promote my ideas. I've been doing it from here on as a third party and I would say Laura

that that's kind of a gotcha question. Gotcha. I'm so grateful for you for having me. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Mike Gravel He's a former U.S. senator from Alaska from 1969 to 81 he's running as a Democratic presidential candidate. The exchange is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio. The producer is Ty Fraley The engineer Dan COLGAN volunteer has Priscilla Malcolm theme music was composed by Bob Lord Exchange's executive producer Keith shields and I'm Laura