1961 Couchiching conference; Opening address

We have tried to persuade our committee that the program could be if not approve at least would maintain its level. If we had put it far more Canadians in the speakers panel than had previously been the case. And now it is my pleasure to welcome you all to the thread here. Could switching confines of the Canadian Institute current affairs at Geneva park on Lake chain really Ontario this is the opening session of the 1961 Christian conference a summer symposium on national and international affairs arranged by the Canadian Institute on public affairs in cooperation with the CBC. Every day from now until next Friday we'll be bringing you a part of the evening meeting live from the conference hall. The conference chairman welcoming the delegates to this first session is the Reverend shown here and Minister of St. Columbus United Church Toronto.

I want to tell you also that you know already the subject of our conference this year is diplomacy in evolution. And now I've got Rick pleasure in turning over this conference to this evening session of the conference to the chairman. Mr. I must walk on. Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. It is my pleasure and duty to I think the pleasure is greater than the duty I do and do introduce first of all these speakers are the main speakers for the evening. And Mr. Ritchie Cantor. I don't think you need very much introduction because he's a journalist who has made an international reputation as a writer who can describe I can first of all find out. I watch scientists are doing and who can then describe what they are doing to us in a way which we can then I think understand far better than we did before. I what is going on in this world and what has gone on so fast in this

world over the last generation. He was born in Scotland he's as guarded going to corporate in Scotland and as I say he has developed into I think a unique being in this world in that capacity and that he has watched he is opening this conference with I was some outline I want the changes be. And later on on the 1st of October he takes up an appointment all goes to complete his appointment as how driven it jet in international relations at university that ladies and gentlemen I give you now Mr. Richard Carter. Thank you very much Mr. Watkins. Some years ago I wrote what was supposed to be a light hearted article called Waiting for my psych a psych incidentally was not my girlfriend. It described how I had had dinner in New York. I had caught my trans-Atlantic plane and had been lunching with my family in my garden and

sorry it was an exceptional some of that year the following day. But I just wasn't there with my family. I wasn't all that heavy baggage was coming by sea and it was quite obvious that I'd packed my psyche by mistake and it just hadn't caught up with me. Well the psychiatrist who happened to read the article wrote me a very nice letter from Zurich saying that this was no laughing matter. The speed of travel was such that people couldn't get psychologically adjusted. They would step out of one environment suddenly into another without waiting for their psyche to catch up with them. And he warned that this was causing very great stresses in international. Because statesmen and politicians rushing from one crisis conference to another never had time. To make the necessary psychological adjustments. Well today jet aircraft has diminished time and distance even more statesman

engage increasingly in direct negotiation summits and the like. Depend less on the ambassadors who are at least living there and their modern climate ties to the situation than the visiting firemen and much less nowadays on the diplomatic pouch or the Kurdish cable in fact it takes longer probably to decipher a cable than it takes a prime minister to fly the Atlantic. Everything now has a crisis urgency which doesn't give time to people time to think about the fundamental nature of the crisis itself. So as a doctor would say the perty mouth of minor political epilepsy is liable to build up Instagram now of a major convulsion. The speed of Transportation has done this. But signs through the speed of telecommunications has done something more on the shortwave my voice at this moment could be had more quickly by a listener in Tokyo than it could be had by the people at the back of this

hall. Because just reminder the speed of electromagnetic waves radio waves is one hundred eighty six thousand miles per second and consequently it travels faster than sound waves at 700 miles per hour. Consequently an announcement in Moscow can be had in Ottawa or Washington. In no time to talk. But meanwhile we haven't changed the sun of the night or the day so that the sleeping and waking times of those who have to deal with the repercussions of such pronouncements still on change to cope with the kind of international emergencies of which are rife today. We would need a diplomatic jewel line and a 24 hour vigil. Foreign Secretaries and their under secretaries ought to be working on shifts around the clock. When I was director of plans of political warfare in the British foreign office during the war I had to do just that sleep beside a scrambler telephone like a night porter

in a hotel. And I wasn't at all popular when I wanted a policy guidance a from an Eden. At 3:30 in the morning I also found it very difficult to convince my colleagues in the Foreign Office that policy was made as much by what we didn't say on the radio and so far as to what we might say if the speech made a speech and that would allowed to go by default. The hours of broadcast time which again while we were making up our minds was a strategical advantage to him. And this is increasingly true today. There's nothing to recommend this kind of open diplomacy. Which is like snatching a pass in a fast moving football game. It just happens to be a gradual fact of modern life with which we have to cope. It makes one side for the more leisure. When I resigned from the Foreign Office at the completion of my war service I left with my last will and testament. In which I tried to explain these things. I

recalled the palmy days a farm a stone in politics a crisis would be building up behind the scenes and tatters the British ambassador would very discreetly. Take Napoleon's mistress out to dinner. He would ply her with good food and lots of wine and himself with good food and lots of wine and discover who was who and what was what in this particular crisis. The next day he would have an inexcusable hangover and since the dispatch of this importance would have to be written in his own handwriting I may add ladies and gentlemen that even during the war we had to write dispatches in our own handwriting. He would defend it. Quite understandably until well the next day it would then be sent to Cali by person because of course a Queen's Messenger wouldn't go by anything so crude as a trade and there would be a storm in the channel in the packet but couldn't cross or would have to wait. He would then arrive having driven again from Dover by post here to arrive a darning street to find a lot of promise

and there was shooting in Yorkshire and was not to be disturbed by the time that dispatchers considered the crisis would have taken care of itself. Now that one hundred years later when all that Mr Khrushchev has to do is to time a broadcast speech at a moment awkward enough to the president of the United States at his press conference. Science in this way has helped to change the mechanism of the book The plumber said. But it is even more drastically change the world with which diplomacy has to deal. The instruments of mass communication radio television films and the printing press have completely altered the approached to people and to problems you know when we disapprove of what these medias say we call it propaganda when it suits us we call it presenting our way of life. But even when the facts are cosmetically treated and selectively presented facts themselves

have a habit of sticking my nose unlike batters have a good scotch one. Will be carried into unlikely places to produce surprising growth somewhere else. Mr. Chapman the winds of change are estatic new nations owe their best to the radio. Ideas penetrate even to the most remote parts of the world. Freedom through this dissemination spreads like an infection and it has become epidemic. Sometimes as a delayed action a kind of political timebomb effect which is liable to go off when you least expect it. Sometimes as in the case of the physical propagation of radio waves themselves there is what the telecommunications people call a skip. I love the stretching nine years ago I was in the hills of central Java. I was there for the United Nations to see what science was doing in a beneficial way.

With the advent of penicillin it's possible to cure that horrible disease yours which afflicts and cripple cripples tens of millions of people in the tropical countries with one shot of penicillin. You can cure a case of yours. And this had been done so effectively in this particular region by the World Health Organization and the UNICEF Children's Fund that the whole of the area of Central Java had been clear. Well in one of the hill villages I asked the beneficiary. The illiterate Japanese peasants whether they'd ever heard of the United Nations. Well you may know it was the intervention of the good offices commission of the United Nations which confirmed the engineers ins in the freedom. And if you like involve the Dutch in a loss of an empire those people had never heard of the United Nations. But in the conversation which was being interpreted they used two phrases in English. One was an Atlantic Charter and the other one was atom bomb.

Now I've pursued these two phrases too then the Atlantic Charter not the United Nations had given them the political freedom I delayed action if you like of wartime propaganda about the four freedoms. The second the release of atomic energy and the greatest material achievement of Manson's the Contras a far was to these illiterate Japanese peasants. The bomb which the white man had dropped on the yellow and would never have dropped on the white. Now here's a matter of the most profound importance in international relations. Science released atomic energy with cataclysmic effect and we ourselves know the emotional overtones which it has produced amongst those who realize the implications of its scientific military and peaceful uses. But consider the significance of this attitude of those Japanese. We might spend hours in perfectly rational but I assure you quite fruitless discussion

as to whether we'd had the bomb before the end of Hitler's war. We would have dropped it on Germany whatever we made it was all we did. That history is against us. It was dropped on the yellow man. A fact which the white man can never disavow to the satisfaction of hundreds of millions of Colored People. Especially as in the mean time whenever we ever wanted to test a bigger and a more dangerous bomb. It has always seemed to be. And to them to take at the risk of the colored people the Americans in the Marshall Islands the Russians behind the Urals the British in the South Pacific and the French in Africa in this as in so many other things science and its use or misuse has become a profoundly disturbing factor disturbing far beyond the range of the rational discussions we may have in this conference. Although I suspect we're likely to find that these discussions however rational and well

informed will be equally disturbing. There are I repeat few places in the world where the implications of modern science have not penetrated we. You can imagine and we could look at a map and we see it so drastically changed since 1945. All we could hear the roll call of the nations and the United Nations Assembly. Now nearly twice as many as there were when the organization was full. We see a map colored with new countries whose names we scarcely recognize but who have achieved political freedom. Well Mr. Chairman ladies and gentlemen when the intoxicating effects of political independence where all that is as I found in my travels the morning after the night before people are apt to wake up in those countries those countries of the new freedoms and discover that freedom has been robbed of its meaning that justice hunger

Aylmore hunger and justice all more impoverished just a sick o more disease ridden and justice frustrated in the office they're seeking for a better way of life. But there is a profound new factor in their frustration. They know that the wit of man can produce more food. The disease is not the will of the gods but can be demonstrably cured by the means available to man and that there are so many things which they never knew they wanted which they now positively know they need. With all our scientific advances it seems to be a case and thousands of millions of people throughout the world are aware of that. I'm to them the top shall still be given. The advanced countries are becoming richer and more prosperous and the underdeveloped countries are becoming poorer. And that 10 years after what we have as a new social philosophy and what President Truman called a bold new program by which the advanced

countries were to share their science their technology and their economic resources with peoples who were less better off. We've had mutual aid and technical assistance and on my travels for the United Nations and specialized agencies which have taken me to most parts of the world. I have seen what is needed what is possible what is being done and what is lacking through the limited limited financially limited that is activities of the United Nations special agencies giving technical assistance and through the more lavish examples of bilateral aid. People are being shown what is scientifically and technically possible but there is a great and a growing danger that this kind of technical assistance those demonstrations of the beneficial which we shouldn't want to deny anyone that those demonstrations are becoming window shopping. We're showing people what they could have if they had the means to get them. And we are not giving them the means. They're just

pressing their noses against a plate glass window like children looking at toys at Christmas. They have not the means to go shopping in what Professor p.m. as black it's called the supermarket of signs. They can't even afford about investment what the real what are the real needs and the real potential. The first and the most obvious need is to meet the rapid increase in population. It took homo sapien 200000 years to reach the present population figures of about 3000 million. It will take home a sap and less than four years to double that figure. In 1980 the figure will be inescapable four thousand million. By inescapably I mean that there is no conceivable means of restricting population short of nuclear war which will make it less than that figure. It may be more the pressures are

growing mainly in those countries which we call underdeveloped that is set in people who say that if people insist on treating on breeding like animals they should be allowed to die like animals that we should if necessary withhold the advances of medicine those advances which are exercising control. They didn't gentleman. This is genocide. It is asking us to discriminate against certain races certain races who are impoverished to the point where they cannot do it for themselves. But in any event it's absolute nonsense because there is no WE in this case who can decide these other new nations and their governments will insist on having and insist on applying those advances. The

numbers of with which we are confronted are not the real problem. It's a time time time. Time the speed of change. In this case of population within the next twenty years we shall have at least to double the present production of food. Because apart from numerical increase half the population of the world at this moment is under Nottage it will need all the science and the wisdom of man to do that and we cannot in the advanced countries have any attitude of condescension. We are all in it together. In 20 years time the United States which we were told at school was as great self-sufficient country will be dependent for more than half its raw materials for its industries and for is maintaining of a standard of life on countries outside its boundaries. If we don't help the underdeveloped countries to increase their capacity to produce We shall not share in their results. We

have to ensure our future good will and therefore our access to the sources by helping them now. I wish people and politicians would occasionally think all look at another kind of map. For one thing it would temper this out against this condescension of north temperate zone. I use the north temperate zone quite deliberately because it includes North America Europe USSR and Japan. The technologically highly advanced countries and also because geographically latitudes have a great deal to do with their advancement. Let me recall to the order to take office Rostov calls it of their prosperity began for all practical purposes with the invention of the steam engine. That's the scientific and technological revolution which is the basis of the superiority of the supremacy in fact and the disparity is

no older than the United States of America in fact. Benjamin Franklin was corresponding about what's a steam engine when he is also arguing with the British government about the Stamp Act. Will this power this power of steam in the first instance in Britain then in Western Europe and in America then in Japan and then in Russia. It was possible to produce the goods which produced the wealth which produced the education which produced the scientific research which produced more wealth. But all this was based on steam and the accessibility of fossil fuels. Coal later oil and natural gas. But as the world power conference has repeatedly reminded us over 90 percent of the accessible coal and over 80 percent of the oil and natural gas was north of latitude 20 which I don't ask you to imagine is on the map but it is just south of the Tropic of Cancer.

Now I may say that that 80 percent of oil and natural gas is probably an underestimate. In view of the fact that you and Canada are now proposing to open up what I regard as potentially one of the richest oil fields of which is in your own islands. It's obvious from such a map that the people of those countries which we now call underdeveloped could have had no role at all in the first industrial revolution. Other than that which they had just won a Heroes award in the drawers of water the pure producers of raw materials for the factories and all the stomachs of the Industrial Workers of the countries which had this geological advantage and so they got left behind in the breakthrough to material prosperity. Now ladies and gentlemen a unit of power can be equated very simply to currency. There are the $1000 countries where the average income per capita is over a thousand dollars a year. And the $100 countries and the 10 to one

disparity is the amount of power which they use on the basis of seven hundred fifty thousand million kilowatt hours of electricity generated in the United States each man woman and child in the USA has the equivalent of 85 human slaves. Any modern factory worker in a highly developed country can with a flick of a switch and with no muscle effort to himself command the energy equivalent to 150 human slaves. And if you want to see what this relevance means it would take 3 million gallons slaves to row their Queen Elizabeth across the Atlantic in five days. Just imagine the Triarii mother the galley ship that that would represent. But in the underdeveloped countries 80 to 90 percent of the energy depends on muscle power using energy in its most Spens a form of food calories. And this means that a unit of muscle power is 20 times more than

the cost of a unit of electricity produced it called a hole. The British atomic energy station how don't you see here is the profound irony. The poorest people in the world can only afford to use the most expensive power muscle power not imagine. Take another look at the map south of that line of latitude 20 degrees north is the equitorial the rain belt with a super abundance of water. And if the countries could afford the installations an enormous potential of hydroelectric power. But you know you can't shift around for cataracts. Geologically determined and not necessarily where they're needed most power transmission of a long distance is enormously expensive. But for a very brief moment around about the time of the peaceful use of atomic energy conference in 1955 a great

illusion was created. The underdeveloped country is less about energy. Atomic power which is not restricted by geology or geography and which look like they're short cut into the second industrial revolution. Now that looks like a hope to kind of naturally wherein the actors which we have building in Britain produce civil but economic Only when their capacity is big. 300000 to 500000 kilowatts and if they can work 24 hours a day. Now that implies a national grid daughter a vast industrial conurbation which can sustain this base load throughout 24 hours. The smaller plants with which the industries of the less developed countries might grow up. And that's important not yet available. They need to enrich fuel efficient materials which are used in bombs and that fissile materials locked up in a

bomb stockpile. They just can't have at this moment the kind that kind of plan. So we have this paradox. You must of industries to absolve POV but you must have the power to have the industry. You must have the interests to afford atomic power and without it you can't afford to have the industry. So once again it's a case of under them the top shall be given. Now think of that map again. Below that line most of the people in the world. They're multiplying. And in 40 years time they will represent 4 to 1 the population of America Europe and the Soviet Union. The world has changed very rapidly is going to change even more rapidly. And it doesn't seem to me as a problem your two hour discussions this week that at the present time statesmanship all our diplomacy has taken into account what is going to happen to international relationships in the next

20 years. All the demands of the new insurgent Nations for economic conditions of their own survival or indeed what is going to happen when I do not say it is. I say when they're quire the scientific and technical means for satisfying the people's legitimate demands for the greater well-being. One thing is manifest and true on this small planet round which a piece of manmade can circle 20 times a day 4000 million people in the next 20 years. I've got to contrive to live together all to die together. So a man has now all the power of veto over his own pathetic he can solve the population problem quite simply he can have a nuclear war. Ours is a global civilization past civilizations could die in their own backyard and another civilization would replace them. They would

leave in the dust of their own creation. The pyramids of Egypt the ziggurats of Mesopotamia the boosts of their material achievements the sum of their arrogance and the headstones of the civilization would die through the neglect of the conditions of their own survival. I'm a perpetual But sometimes I have an apocalyptic vision. We too have our parents our arrogance our pyramids in space and I see a manmade satellite circling for all eternity round a dead planet a world which died of too much signs and too little wisdom. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen we now come to the second part of our discussion. I

don't think I should begin it without saying a word of very deep thanks to Mr Ritchie CALDA and to say any more 10 percent any more. I would after what you had and your expression of your view was I think probably be an impertinence. And as chairman of this meeting I it's not my purpose to hold up or provide any gap between the speech and the questions and discussion which we ought to have which we're going to have. But it seems to me we're starting on a week of problems which arise from this kind of background of science. And there are two things I would like to emphasize. Because we are moving from what has been mostly scientific up to this moment to the political. One is the obvious one that the answer to this well but I put it this way what Richie colorist said is a blueprint group into the situation. We know that the answer is a political one because it will stem from public opinion and public opinion. Even in any country I will have its impact and its

greatest effect on those people in political power. I would I would like to say something else too which perhaps is not quite so obvious and that we can't forget that while some of our problems involved in all this change are entirely new for white people as well as the colored people. Some of them are not. Some of them perhaps like the position in Berlin I really know more than kind of new versions of old problems. And so part of the time where we are on what I might call uncharted sea is when we can only rely on the things which we are born with such as principled goodwill and sanity. And I hope common sense and when indeed when I was problems past attitudes are far more hindrance and help. And then we got the other kind of problem the problem where history will tell us that we. What happens if we make mistakes. And what happens if we treat problems as something which our being too new instead of learning from our history books. What happened to other people who made the same kind of mistake as so. Or

after all we've had tonight. I don't think I need Sandy more and I think it's an understatement that we do live in difficult times. But there is hope that we are able to match the right remedy a tool the right problem and sell it we shan't attempt to use the wrong method and our method for a new problem or a new message from the old. In other words is the old parallel. What is the wind what is the age it's about. Now we have with us as you see on the platform a panel which I hope will start after a discussion and I would like very briefly to introduce them. There are four for yes Bill Stevenson a journalist John Easton a scientist Gordon Hawkins educationist and who described as I was a businessman when I should've put him first. Now how would you like to start the ball rolling. Mr. Chairman I have a question a comment and a question that I'd like to put which would relate

directly to the first point that Mr. coda made. The rapidity of change in travel and communications and the cycle of logical adjustment required as related to the diplomatic function which is a theme of this conference after all. I want to put it to you that we perhaps do ourselves a great disservice by regarding this as a disaster and a curtain and a major convulsion that we have to come to terms with that we are one stage behind in the diplomatic game if we are mourning if we regard it as part of our equipment to mourn the passing of the old ways in communication and travel. Are we not now at a stage where we've got to throw off the tradition and the cliche of diplomatic intercourse and begin to get an approach. In fact begin to get people who by training by mentoring equipment by metabolism as well as by physique can come to terms with the

fact of speedy travel who aren't bothered about the location of their psyche who are just as capable of being perceptive and articulate on the wing as well as in the ROT. It seems to me that this is an extremely important point that we need to make quite clear I'm not arguing for personal diplomacy or summitry or itinerant political leadership only that we need this capacity to travel to be disdainful of the obligations of speedy travel and moving from one climate to another and so on. Let me give you a personal example. If I move out of the humidity of a Toronto day into the pleasant air conditioned office that I work it there is a shock that is of this order of shock. But when I'm there I don't have to wait to my psyche. My psyche is in there waiting for me. If you know what I mean. Because this is what I want to be I feel sufficiently disdainful of the process of getting there the fact of air conditioning to want to get on with what is in that office and the same thing may be true with

diplomacy. It seems to me that I'm justified in putting this point to use because I among your many admirers see you with someone who has done this kind of thing who has been hovering really perceptive about world affairs being a sort of intellectual equal as it were. Will you not have academic chains which may shackle you down and limit your well your true capacity that is the question I take it as well as a comment that is a question and a comment. Mr. Chairman I'd just like to say that I don't want me don't want what I said to miss understood I was appraising the situation not approving the situation as a segue. I don't regard this as bad at all. What I'm saying is that we have not yet got accustomed to the process and the fact is that there's no reason why Mr. McMillan shouldn't fly over for lunch with President candidate and talk over the latest development. But what is very important is this that if you are in fact regarding people as did. I mean if

you're regarding people as coming say from Russia or from the heart of the Congo I incidentally traveled from the Congo to New York with a politician a African politician who's never been in there before and he came over here in what six and a half hours and he stepped out into a New York blizzard. What I mean by what I was trying to say and that was the point of my last will and testament which is that of mine with the Foreign Office and the foreign secretary that this is a fact of life. I'm not I'm not for one moment applauding it to talk. What I'm saying is A as the kind of thing we should be considering over this week of diplomacy and evolution is how you have all this kind of person you're talking about. I don't believe that you do it by simply treating the thing on the basis of all time statesmanship or as I found in the Foreign Office. A sort of atmosphere of a 19th century family solicitor's office you could always find the treaty. In this case the deed box

if you looked for it you had time to look for it. But we've got to do now is to key the whole thing up to the point of the fact that this is one of them. And I'm not using that in I might say the pious stance it is physically one way that we can move as fast as this we can deal with these situations if we are sensible human beings and exactly the way that we will say that is the point that's the challenge. I would to breed but develop a situation in which the man on the spot and he must be on the spot. That's to say the man was evaluating the situation. Can be just as dangerous as a bear who is not of value as a man is coming in with preconceived ideas. Jeff you must have the background of facts. At the same time balance by the capacity for commonsense of the people who are dealing with this situation. But it does call justice. The situation today calls for the politician a demagogue who can in fact speak into a microphone without his teeth rattling into an

exactly the same way we've got a situation where diplomats and statesmen have got to adjust themselves to the speed of travel. I'm not deploring On the contrary I think it's part of the unity of the earth but we that is the fact that was what I was appraising. We have come down from 50000 feet from and discuss one of the practical problems that Mr. Richard has. Mr Calder has touched upon the urgent need to find some ounce of the population growth. It seems to me that it's quite easy to pass abstract comments on the urgency of the problem. But what are we actually prepared to do to relieve the pressure of population in underdeveloped countries which are by and large the countries in Asia and Africa. Countries which are still under various kinds of limitation on immigration quotas to the large and empty countries of the West. Now what are we to do in this case in case of

this kind. The United Kingdom in the last few weeks has been reported to be considering much stricter limitations on immigration to the UK. In the past the United Kingdom has been I think taking an undue share of the load and accepting people from the Commonwealth who could not get into other countries like Canada. But are we prepared to do. Do you want to put a question as you put it this way if you will people all those people who do this be allowed to be around more. So I suggest that people should be allowed to move around more freely but let's get done something concrete but here in Canada should we be doing it in a practical sense to help to relieve this pressure. Well manifestly when looking critically imagining that you're going to have and then Russians Chinese Japanese or something like that you want to be encouraging immigration because this is one of the great underdeveloped countries the world underdeveloped

in the best sense of the world in the sense of not merely neglected It's never been tackled in this way. But Mary just elaborate on that because I've given a great deal of time and thought in fact I just finished a book on the way across in the plane as the speed of modern travel today on this problem of how you deal with a starving world here. Whatever. Grain grain arrays may be bursting with is not simply to dole out food. I think you ought to be doling out food I think if hunger is persistent in the world then hungry people should be fed but that is not the answer. We cannot live on a soup kitchen economy. We can to live to live on food which is gift food. Therefore you've got to work into a situation which will help these countries to develop in their own regions their capacity to feed themselves or you get a situation which we try to get 14 years ago when people's eyes were quite so bloodshot

and myopic as they are today. When we drill if faced with a world of misery after the war when we try to find a solution for this and by DAWs world football's conception of the way in which the distribution of food throughout the world would have been politically economically decontaminated put it that way. But this problem is so complex because what you're asking is a very rapid advance in the Standard Life of the people. If you can get people to live like animals they will in fact breed like animals. There is no other answer. I mean this is the truth and the facts throughout the world. The but also if you raise their standard of life they begin to get different objectives. I mean you said it when I said in my. Opening remarks that there was no solution to this problem of the 4000 million I would point out to you that in Japan they have

harvest the birthrate in the last seven years. It is still not a solution in my numerical terms because by nine thousand nine hundred eighty here there will still be a one hundred five million people in Japan. We've got to feed them. Now there is at this moment I assure you we are capable of feeding more than the 3000 million we've got today more than a 4000 million will get in 100 80 by methods which we don't even have to invent by simply extending what is best and what we know today and applying. But behind that is the fact that the people haven't got the money to use it. They haven't got what the United Nations and others have got the capacity at this moment to disseminate that kind of information. So what we are facing as I said very urgently is the time factor. How do we organize the world to apply the science and technology and I mean sister good husband which will in fact produce the food for these people to death.

And in the next 20 years there is no problem from the point of view of what we can do. The question is like you is are we going to do it as a color. You said and I have a space here so I can quote the newly independent countries are apt to discover that freedom has lost its meaning that they are just as hungry and just as poor and just as sick when they have achieved independence as before but now surely political freedom has never had the meaning or implication of economic prosperity. We in the west stand for political freedom. The Soviets are against such freedom. But both of us have the capacity to be wealthy and to help technologically and economically the backward nations. It is an inference from this that diplomacy has to find some way of separating the economic task ahead of us from the political ideological differences we have in other words. We saw surely never get ahead with this task of the economic task you've

outlined. If we allow it to be hampered by the interplay and rivalry of the politics. That absolutely into play and rival of the politics of me I come back and say that you really cannot separate the political and economic essence of freedom. I mean one of the complaints of the peoples of their subject countries is that weve been taking advantage of them and they expect to get far better out of their appointed leader. As I say it's the morning after I mean political freedom independence flag wagging is one great exultant moment. But when they come around to the point where they then find that as I say not better off in many cases worse off and I speak with some feeling having come out of the Congo and that is that you would then find that this is in fact you've been cheated or what you thought political freedom really meant. You don't in fact get a great deal of satisfaction of saying I'm a freak. That's the moment of exultation that's when you go out and cheer on Independence Day. But the morning

after is much more difficult. This is the challenge of diplomacy. And that is to say rival but I challenge a rival is this the challenge of rival as this is that if you are in fact alive in these countries. That all the governments of these countries are cheating the governments of these countries are denying the governments of these countries the capacities to do what their people want to do which is economic and economic aid then in fact you are putting these governments and has it and I may say very categorically that democracy is a word that rumbles very meaningless and empty bellies. This is something which I want to emphasize very strongly because this is the great illusion illusion of freedom is one thing. The illusion of democracy whatever it is we want is another. If you cannot give the content and meaning to freedom and democracy as indeed that there are the Russians in the material sense of feeding people are quite likely to do. Then you have lost this game the diplomatic game of east and west.

PS Yes just your emotions which the caller suggested. If I understood him correctly that a technical assistance provider under developed countries was now turning out to be largely window shopping. At the same time he suggested that. The soup kitchen for other systems was unsatisfactory. Well I was I understand technical assistance it is a means of instructing the people of the underdeveloped countries ensuring them how to accomplish these things rather than carrying out a sample case and asked him take their choice as my understanding is just as wrong. That is quite right but the point is you see don't you or you see if you can show to people what is technically possible to scientifically possible but if you then don't provide them with the results if you don't help this prince of the special fund of the United Nations to follow through. If you don't in fact create a much greater input of economic resources in

these countries to give them the capacity to take up then all you're doing is dangling something in front of them. Which is an essence of frustration I once said of Afghanistan would be the first digit democracy because you had people marching on Kabul demanding DDT because the next tribal whatever was the demonstration area and stop scratching. Part of getting rid of malaria and typhus. But you see what you show that is something that they then urgently want and the pressures which you produce is in fact does by recoil produce the frustration. So what you've got to do is to consolidate technical systems. Heaven forbid I I am going to spend my life going around on technical systems that I'm not applauding at I'm gonna say that our jargon is the thing we're trying to do will be completely defeated unless we can solve it unless we give them. And coming back to the soup kitchen this answers this my point about supplying food out of result reserves as well as I suggest we should do it

people hunger is not the permanent answer. We're again doing something which is only a demonstration of the fact that the Western Hemisphere has got more food in the eastern hemisphere. So what you've got to do is to use as I would suggest and I'm suggesting elsewhere that you do what has been tried out in India. I think probably like our subject direction have a set experimenter by the United States in which if you give food from your surpluses to a country you make available to the government of the country which then sells it and then as it were plows back what it is into the fertilizers for next year's crops for the country or into developing new breeds of whatever it is. But at least. Something which is a growing pansit and not some one tango. That's all I'm saying as a German Yes. STEVENSON Yes. Mr. Professor Calder in his experience as a U.N. technician does he feel that there is any prospect of a

real global approach to these global prop problems that is can we anticipate in the very near future. Within this 20 year critical period a day when the United States the Western Allies and the Soviet Union and the communist bloc may get together in a much freer spirit of cooperation to tackle problems such as in India. I am as I said. In my opening remarks I'm an optimist and I don't see any reason and this is not just wishful thinking I don't see any reason why there should not be set the one I wish what I was doing or trying to do tonight was to give an appraisal of a situation which has got no ideological inflexions I deliver you as the chairman left the politics out of it. And what we're talking about now is an appraisal of a situation which is inherently significant to the Russians as it is to us. That's what you are what we're talking about is how small.

As I said. That lie goes around a 20 times a day is very small. And then we've got to contrive to live together or die together. But the point is that in the contrivance of all the knowledge which is available now let me tell you this that in a practical sense apart from the political sense where you do get real cooperation you do get it. People just don't realize this on the ground the situation is and doesn't look like what it looks to us in the general assembly or elsewhere. You do get the cooperation and Russians in India are cooperating very very well indeed on those things. Indians have known how to use not saying even in terms of expediency intelligence diligently use the East-West relationship and they've combined it. Now here you've got a situation which will yield enormous fruit but all all all quarters now in things where you are where you'll find the points of departure whether great areas of ignorance about what is possible.

Now I would say I have traveled I don't know many hundreds of thousands of miles of deserts and so on. But in the reclamation of deserts for example what we were looking for was knowledge. Shared knowledge the experience in the American desert the desert of the United States and I got planted in the Alps are Straley and desert for example as a hot air in the Middle East and indeed the Catacomb deserts of the USSR. We have learned a great deal from not only from the achievements and the great achievements of the Soviet Union for example desert reclamation was a very important factor to feed you but also than not although with some reluctant Cheers we're now learning their mistakes and their mistakes are just as you're in this thing. I was learning about the way they've done it because from that we will avoid the kind of mistakes which in fact would be put us all in has it. So we are on my level of

discussion as to say where we're really dealing with technical problems with technical people. We have got the Accord today there is no problem. We get these people discussing on both sides of the aisle on the practical problems. Now how do we communicate this into the diplomacy and the politics of the Cold War. This is not my terms of reference are receiving so I am leaving that to the discussions of the week and you have a question present. They are scientist. So am I. Let me get on to a somewhat technical question. You made it sound as though the quality of people of the world was something to do with latitude. You mention that the first industrial revolution happened where it did happen because north of 20 degrees was where all the fossil fuels were and south of that there were none or not many and not much. Now another way of putting out is to say that we benefited from the

energy of sunlight that got locked up in the billions of years ago. Yes now we have to look surely for some direction in which the topical nations are favored compared with ourselves and their favorites and their enormous amount of energy that is coming in right now it's the solar energy coming in day in day out and getting locked up in plants and so on. Doesn't this suggest that perhaps. One of the really important things for science to do is to get a tremendous crack at this problem of harnessing the solar energy and problems of photosynthesis and so on so that we can reach a stage in which the bright Congolese have great advantages over the sunless Scots. I wouldn't like that. Look at my son down from Scotland. This is a gift to me very simply yes I remember I was plowing through the harbor with a friend

signed up to the knees and burning sand and one of the remarks he was made to me was pointing up to the Sun he said is our atomic reactor. And it's true. That is where we can derive and should derive the potential energy of the world. Now this is true but what is defeated us is the fact that people in the north Templars are not being so well and with sunlight as a people and they're all a part of the world. I don't give enough thought to this. There is a great deal of thought being given our intensive thought but the point is that over the years we've neglected some lie because it was wasn't and Scotland wasn't there so we didn't bother about sunlight. But in the end in this picture I met a fact I'm going on from here directly to the United Nations conference and Rome which is dealing with us believe it or not new sources of energy. And what are the new sources of energy. This incidentally as a substitute for the

Atomic Energy Conference we should have had this year three years after 1958 and we're going over to a new source of energy now one of the new sources of energy. Wonderful. It's when it's water it's sunlight. It's just the energy the energy which comes out of the earth. And we're looking there for the kind of answers which in fact will have probably more meaning and then an atomic energy itself. For example one of the most exciting things is coming out of this conference is geothermal energy the energy which comes up visibly to get geysers or gays or whatever you call them over here Iceland and the United States and in New Zealand and so far the gases that come up and it lead and drive Incidentally the Italian State Railways. They got all this coming out of there. Now if you look at the map I'm sorry to keep on insisting on match because the listeners can see it. But the thing is that if you look at a

map you have got a very curious read nation geological and geographical. You've got in fact running right through the underdeveloped countries we're talking about one of the largest and indeed the most continuous source of geothermal energy. You've only got a border and we've never looked for it before but if you look at the volcanic systems of the world you will find in fact the kind of just as you look now there what we're starting again. We're starting in 1961 to look at the problems that we ought to be looking at a thousand years ago in solar energy. The answers are coming up and I will come up much faster now that the combined mind of man and I mean that is not concentrating on it. And we had a conference last year. We mean if we're listening to a part of the first session of the 1961 coaching conference which is held annually at Geneva park a YMCA camp on Lake teaching Nira Radia Ontario the chairman this evening was Ernest Watkins author and commentator on Canadian and international affairs and member of the Alberta

legislature for Calgary. The principal speaker was Richie Calder professor of international relations at the University of Edinburgh presenting the opening address on the theme of this year's conference diplomacy and evolution. The conference continues until Friday and we should bring you part of the sessions each evening. We invite you to consult your local newspaper for specific broadcast times to morrow morning at 11:00 Eastern Daylight Time which will be broadcasting the church service which the delegates will be attending at the conference hall. A good teaching conference is arranged by the Canadian Institute on public affairs in cooperation with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation templates of the discussions may be obtained within about two months after the conference ends by writing to the University of Toronto press Toronto five Bob Wilson speaking. This is CBC Radio the Trans Canada network.