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I would love to leave their undergraduate level for learning about about a few other things. I don't think that working with Floyd anybody in our system on the basis of an undergraduate program to know the broadcasting. Of this is this I think this is a major point of this whole discussion. But before we get right to that let's let's look at the face. What are the feelings now existing. That. That make it necessary for the very sense to which is represented here and all the rest of the not present here to offer this kind of training on the undergraduate level or this kind of education from the undergraduate level. I normally don't post I don't think you can see a great deal I'm looking to anybody all is ever going to know to me the crucial thing about your man with his
Vatican assignment is not that he didn't know anything about the Vatican when he got you signed but was he the kind of person who had sense enough to realize your son would have the background to know where you were before you went to do it. I think this is something of a good education you can get. Yes I think this is true of course is it not also true. That it would be very difficult for instance if you had a. 30 day or 60 day assignment to document the Vatican and you had to educate yourself as to that he came that way. Time with data that someone will reflect to your work. Could I answer of one. I'm very much a 70. Some of the things you say you have a part with a hundred twenty five majors. And you have. Maybe 25 graduates. You say all of us
we will only teach broadcasting. Greg level what happens Vikki what happens to your heart. That's one thing the other thing and that is the crucial thing really. They did this just be a temporary temporary thing. But I will not go on this idea that there are no jobs for as a broadcaster because I you know maybe it's because I'm in a metropolitan area. Because I have a piece that does jobs on my desk right now that I can fill. And when somebody from Baltimore calls me up long distance and so we've got a job for a producer director you send us a boy two years ago we want another boy just like that. I might blow through a week. This is would seem to indicate that at least for me meeting someone. I can see problems elsewhere but I if I felt we were educating people not to work in broadcasting I'd lock up the store and go back to. Sell used cars. I like to think I got that one. Yeah I think that we can be trapped in your way into a false picture of
it is undoubtedly true if you look at that which regulates broadcasting curricula across the country. Find the largest number of times better than 50 percent probably do not go to work in broadcasting. That percentage drops a little if you say if you edge of that related field before brain broadcasting going to advertising we want a public relations and I think this is a legitimate avenue for them to pursue it that it's not a waste of their four years or five years or whatever it might be but they can't look at this against some realistic comparison. I think perhaps we tend to look at it in comparison I don't know that a study has been done on a site that converts let's say with the Department of Education where people are trained as teachers and I would certainly expect to find a much larger percentage of the people who go through teacher trainees producers wind up in the classroom. But even there you're going to find the figure falls far short of 100 percent. But ours is not quite the same kettle of fish. I think you have to compare the graduates of the Brotherhood if Dish to where they have the degree in broadcasting
with rightwards in other curriculum English majors going to something that is related in English and editorial. They certainly could use a global questions like how many people would study for years spent four years studying grades the great writers in the English language go on and become great writers who've obviously answered your own question. But even in India related to English and I was and I think I'm an example of someone who did not I was an underling and English majors in undergrad. But there's another chef I guess argue the point though induct wine favors neither going up our undergraduate training for Again we go into broadcasting. I'll be going and kind of have a great year something off. Therefore I have they've broadened their vote for me or I was lighter earlier in the year elite background I mean I wouldn't assume the English Premier League would be for anything other than that I would meet with even the teachers so I would say that right where you are back let me come in let me come to do in my own
defense I got and then you say there's a dichotomy between liberal arts education will easily. Stand up by myself on the back of the liberal arts and and the broadcasting major who is not really the product of a liberal arts curriculum I don't think that should be true and I don't think any of us would be willing to buy that broadcasting is not for years. How do you up records and I don't like the commercials I think all of us would well-practiced at least it should no it should not be and maybe in some ways it was going to be the same kind of liberal arts background with a specialization and a tricky reveal which in this case that would be right. I would over certainly the broadcasting major has more voice in the English department than the major over the rug. Well it was partly it's true that I did a survey some years back. I've found that this is not true it was a rug or book or especially if they didn't go out
this was coming very largely lost. I think I hate you. The woman expressed a desire to be a greater you know record level at the same time I vish the problem finding out that it was a stamp for God with a small sack leader. So the small group of five members could very well be supported drug which is. No greater numbers are also likely a lot fighting relegation. No time you know me well I suppose you think you're talking yourself. He serves as his lean right wing members as well as he has had a number yes you are a small percentage.
Incidentally if I'm like did I give you an easy feat. Well first to hear from a scanner share He's a man that has not had any training in left field of radio television and serving on educational reading on television as a part of it more intimately connected with him than most people in the country. Going back to the very beginning of educational television one of the first in the field working with alum do lunch in the old days of getting started. I would say much much of the inspiration and learning that I had as to how the same can be used that matters. What do you think of this situation. As to the problem exists I think I get a good tribute shoot for. The. Way it is clear that.
Oh that looks like a free upgrade or so you're going to get one for your information I think in all fairness you know where you got a point these guys out the Ivy Leaguers. It catches a Princeton man. We'll get this for you really I think where that likely it was me just thinking that if you put your point of what it was. That is. Where they'd put it. They were going they were going to be crying you directly or indirectly to just you for a lot or first fellow was technical and production first despite the fact that like you take a for the you know
maybe for the reason that the legislation regulation requiring or will he receive it was. As a result like I've seen this it up as a result of sudden growth of interest in the wage of broadcast station whereas for years we were at a cancer cell is the way just for the little station. What broke I would I would like a credit as I try to get something off holidays if anybody asked for you would you wager that it was fine that the significance of this is that there have been many cases commercial applications viewership and letter and with a good deal more.
And there this is. Significant education for you like a bond with your wages are 40 and up to the present. Again because the only people in the world. But we did a cable service in those folks and would go to the expense. Why convert or pay for your wages and that was not a very large percentage of the top population but with for a period here the car you're doing you're going to be a position to be educational and they will provide a link that may hit. The watch. And you're looking to
watch them later. Below are the only way to educate are going to be able to meet with these new commercial is if there's a problem. Oh it was to your public Mickey Mouse's. But there are sure just a shortage of like a living developing skills. First. Deliver a program that will track you want to. Get our the bottle for You. Your week. VHF station education child the perception that this is the. Reason we're far away. Like
to well we do watch the station. My wife first of 30 was really good for Murphy. However since I really love the boy rest well I want to play for educational week with programs that have been broadcast by either that or state that were produced by Katie Price was marked by a lady. No make yes or no for this recent series Road to the white very very well and I'm sure that you had occasional broadcasters that followed one of those tracking polls like water and it will require an awful lot of
technical skill or going to the cradle while failing but will be lucky for it then the quality of the teaching and this come back was to just get your good faith. But as a rule like anything else but yourself for experience and the experienced teacher. Whether you face to face with will probably be more of a pressure school because you are going to get their experience of that was so bored at the start of this year the work. Should be pursued vigorously and that the financial expert was a result of a lot of you except for the low wages should be sort of rest but I think they can be made to
be there. It was about professional. Let's see if we can summarize this first quickly here what we have said I think. You can certainly add to us are truck from in this case we add we have a definite problem according to statistics read here by Mary and I think carry pretty well of a country that most of the training. Our education in the field in schools of education are departments or schools of communication or departments of radio television film throughout the country are oriented toward. Commercial employment. That the schools of education have practically neglected the
field. Another of the situations there are in some areas. A decline in opportunities for direct employment in the field and in other areas there are increasing opportunities but no one to fill them and people are being brought in from other disciplines or other experiences. Another problem that has been brought out is. That there is a difference. Are. The questions of difference between the kind of understandings and skills necessary for commercial television and the education television. And there's a question as to what is educational television. And. Such areas just mentioned. Certain programs of
general education on Channel 13 and has spoken about mass audiences and. That I'm sure that there's other people sitting here possibly right Wyman here who would think that. A major concern. And I feel somewhat this way myself is not with mass audiences and with attempting to lure people away merely for their. Recreation. With intellectual programmes but far. For minority audiences for special interests that can't be achieved in any other way. Large audiences but not mass audiences. And are there differences in training here. Should. We're not sure that. We're not sure that we can take a PE sophomore or junior in
college has been sat here and. Give him a decent education in the last two or three years of his college career and give him all of the technical skills involved in broadcasting. On the other hand it's been pointed out if we go into. Go into a total graduate program demanding this background we have a faculty problem can we. Where will we get a faculty or how can we support a faculty do an adequate job. For a small number of students that would be involved at this stage of the game. In. Any graduate program and yet Dr Wyman pointed out that that possibly if this were all on a graduate level that. That this faculty problem would only be a temporary thing maybe things resolve itself. Actually we have said I think Victor that we're not getting
any specific training that's adequate. For our use of television in education. That it's definitely needed regardless of the situation existing in the commercial field. We've said that there is some doubt as to whether or not. Skills can be carried over from one. So with that I think that we ought to go into the second phase where we can. Concerning weather and save what do we think as a group from our collective backgrounds experience. Ought to be the kind of a training program. Leave aside for the moment the practical problems we'll talk about those later. What ought to be provided. In the institutions of higher learning in the United States concerned with providing professional training. What ought to be provided.
For a person now in the general field of education. Aren't general field communication that's going to involve themselves totally in education. And considering your education is a broad field I mean the kind of thing that you're talking about general adult education continuing education. Systematic instruction in schools colleges. The differences between. Higher education instruction and. Grade school education. What kind of training ideally ought to be provided and where I'd like to be but what are the curriculum to be at what level of it to be and in what school out of the night and then take the first crack at that. They feel like inadvertently give the impression that on vocational training in broadcasting and I think that I don't like I don't know how you can't answer the
question but I think I can set outbred some of the parameters on which I'm sure will immediately bring an insight at least usually somebody's name or see there's a word he did not like and use English course. That's right that's right I was an education minor I think I can tell you. But they keep the little dialogic nerve like very well illustrates things that I'm going to say and that is what I sometimes call my question nor was theory of it too they've managed to define it in back to. Back to front. First of all this need to be educated meet the needs of Saint Louis Freeh influence of the liberal arts. Background the broad background in English and in artwork history and political science that any person he does not need to know all about the Vatican body to know where to look to find out about that kind of curiosity. Do this I think we all immediately read. With a two headed part of it really
distilled from my experience with the father a good friend of mine whom I went to elementary school in high school. What is happening to your Mr. Wolf is not. I would guess the best attorney in New York City. He's probably not the best engineering New York City but a greater attorney who knows nothing about engineering or not do the kind of work that he does. And the most skillful engineer who had no background in law did not do the kind of legal work. And here we have I think the same kind of situation built on the foundation of the general liberal arts reform which all of us need for medication for life. I think that the first minute occasional broadcast the first of all that we need not first of all both of these requirements are you know something about broadcast. And then you know something about the educational process. I started out in broadcasting with WNYC in New York and W NYU all of the employees first of all because of legal ethics problems that you can only hire people in the most
worth of education either as teachers or as historians. Do you want to get the man to get the man's paycheck deliberately women or at least the money must be teachers. But everyone was your McAndrew and you don't want one. People also presented it like you have to know what it is you're suing anyone except anybody or they do they will form you out for a couple of years in school somewhere. You are bringing the classroom teacher and you go out and be a blessing teacher find out what you really feel about before you come back. You're not like your friend who says I'm the producer when you people decide whether you want to do out or reduced not sell. So we've got to leave them these I think these these two here and I do the reason for the leaders but there is a cure for two leading educational reform right here in the great similarity. Our courses are unique in things like. Programming and production radio and television and programming and production for commercial work here where the programming
for the bridge here is not right. A program was a program. Good programming on the shoulder injury whether it's sponsor your own sponsors whether it's a special about the Vatican or whether it's on the west room I think that's got to mean the same kind of criteria by the educational broadcaster. Does something that is it's basically very different I think a commercial broadcaster at least this is certainly true in school on any level and that is it is only a part of the educational process. You watch especially on the back and you know nothing about the issues and you know nothing or very little to begin with and you tell you what here's a little white you know any assumes that your interest will end at that 59 30 as the credits come up and we think of like him going to the station. Right. It does not suggest that you go out and read this book prepare for this exam meet with your colleagues for this discussion that occasional what you're asking for. And I think they realize a distinct difference. So very. Easy to lead producer who
thinks that what he does have no relationship and he has no interest in working for one team afterward is. Not proof you're awkward Miles he's naive about what the requirements of what he's doing. We agree very much franker seat. I'm supposed to think tradition number one is that we've always been smart about education for those of us you might feel it was a liar to boot. And yet years of education or said something it didn't take so that we need ordinary people in Iraq it's me and you they need to know something about teaching or eat make a cheap prices they need to know about not just a picture taker or something good by teachers. The camera shaking a taker know something about number two I think and the others will be the schools and colleges of education who think that this is probably in their field and are not looking to the broadcasters and say to them Well this is part of instructional away or enhanced instructional process
we think you need people know something about maybe you would like it coming off this minute. Beat you everywhere like if I calculate a Geisha send somebody out for somewhere in the service. Some television studios and he is now a television outlet and they do not quite right. But I feel very much indeed toward your tricolor the worker allegedly does this make any sense at all. If I'm going to graduate does it make any sense for immigration to take the E-Street liberal arts curriculum so they can major in English for a while. With the education courses required for certification. And. A. Minor. In broadcasting so that the background of the technique and so on that history could be gotten
out of the way on particular level playing for the graduate to be a concentration. Of on education programs like the undergraduate program would be trivial or I do a very scholarly opinion on napping I'd like this to be completely unique to moving away from the not likely conflict going to get a noisy crowd out early I better get my uni are really going to play you know when he gets to which people apply. I'm getting the 19th at. Looking for your breakfast president the better guy you will next time think that wrote a series of life and I am going to pull the witness really really really. Can't be all that negative campaigning. I'm sorry I think I think you need something I think you are going into this business it depends on what level you're going to do it. For instance I think if you're going and really at the university level that Bret asked you what you need here is the kind of
preparation you would give yourself if you're going to teach a university you very likely find yourself doing both get to Europe. And to the extent to which guess what are very popular you're told you're going into a school system where the programming of the military education you want to go through I leased a large part of the sequence that would provide that what it was that would give you the training and the only reasonable teacher to go if you will do that. Probably should do it before you come back into the studio. If you are the secondary level this is a this is a no. Story I think generally favor the idea I seem to be opposed to what Greg was saying. For that I don't want to clarify the point that I think ideally it would be a good system if we could. What broadcast free on me on a master's level Columbia University for instance treats journalism this way but most places don't and most places can't and I think that's good when we object to the some of us a great objection to the idea. We're talking in terms of in pragmatic terms rather than the terms of the
ability of the ideas. Study one of the difficulties you get into broadcasting for more than on anything more than minor in broadcasting on the undergraduate level is that your masters candidates are sort of experience and we are your masters and it will spend a good bit of their time learning techniques which are really not appropriate I think to the master. Well we have a master's program where we some people come to our own undergraduate program but when people come from outside some of the most successful ones we've had one from Albany a good many who know you may find it before they can really start on that kind of work that we consider worthwhile in the master's level got to go back a quarter or four sitting on skills courses. I don't want to give us a feel for the things we want to abide by for him not to do is everybody's it's right but what are we doing. I believe this is the right way to go. We what they skills courses on the lower divisions. They. Do year in
senior years but devoted general terms to integrate the skill with some kind of it in private. You need both radio and Hillary and general field management ministration and on the master's level and we go back to the application. The best thing to do I know under a broader understanding of the whole medium and how it relates to education and society. So we really come full circle. The first course put it in our curriculum. It's called background in broadcasting and primarily historical sociological a bushy white broadcast. When I teach the course I don't want students it's what broadcasting is and we're going to discover what brought us the years in America and how it got that way because it got that way by actually in some cases like resigning by the Johnny come full circle. Will you read them again the sociological implications that brought your case I guess I have got to where you were me in another article.
I'm not too sure if you have but you did raise a question here that I think ought to be at least pointed up before you comment on what you started going further you said that unfortunately we can't do this in most places that is have this. Be on the graduate or the undergraduate level. Oh I don't mean that we can't have a fee on the Nagano would like to use it pragmatically in this but at the moment. We're trying to think beyond the essential needs of the present compulsion. Actually when we take this attitude in the system this is a general latitude. We all. Are. Concerned with what we are doing. It's because we are thinking. In terms of what is now existing. Maybe when we think of the point of the
thing I want to throw out to you maybe you. Why we're thinking or trying to think the same through. That we've got to think in terms of not what it is. But what up to be and what could be if if we are willing we are able rather to get our colleagues and. Fellow faculty members to think in the same terms. The. I think the overriding. Influence here. Is whether we know it or not the fact that higher education the structure and organization of higher education in spite of what you felt was not all what you're working at which are being paid for is within the next 10 to 20 years is going to be completely changed it has to be. We cannot continue the fallacy
in higher education of having a university organization based upon the old medieval structure. And yet given all of these modern history card kids so something is going to have to be done. The Southern Regional Education Board with some 300 colleges universities has come. That conclusion I think in many ways a long time ago and through its membership. So maybe here we are the same just the way things ought to be. And really the way they could be not completely dreaming outside the world of the dream and within a context and then we can take up these practical problems finding. A. Good. Job of New York State. Burke said. I was pretty sure he had worked out. I would go on with this in part but I think that one is that it's going to be a.
New course and you approaches is. For the educational broadcaster. Not to. Let's keep personnel and the education to get it. To Happen understanding of education is going to require. A kind of understanding. I think it's an. Education in its role in society and its objectives have a much broader gauge kind of course than most schools of education now offer. They're coming through for certification which is. Yes but whether this should all be done in the. Undergraduate or graduate level is still a problem. I really feel that everyone let me go back and start into this. I think that practically every other phase of education formal and informal classroom industry wherever it is going to be carried out is going to be carried on in part with broadcast media.
I think this is unavoidable. The classroom teacher has been ignoring it for a long time. I think it is going to be in practically every class. Not only. But much of the work of the teachers in the future is going to involve not only receiving and using newer media and the broadcast media but many teachers are going to be involved in teaching to cameras and to microphones. Furthermore I think that nearly every school building is going to have some sort of a media center with a lot of radio television equipment in it and in charge of some sort of a media specialist that every school system is going to have a sort of super production distributing producing media center that are neat for people with a knowledge of broadcasting is multiplying very
rapidly at the present time in education. Hence every teacher needs some training in what the broadcast medium can do. Some teachers need extensive training in how to live to work in front of a camera. And a microphone and an even smaller group need to be the people who would know about it fades and dissolves and decibels and lumens and all of the other things that go into it. Quality productions of. Education that are going to be televised. So. Why would I then just say that rights and. How we get those people in the world with great teachers that means I think the road to this is an undergraduate teacher education program that is based primarily on an academic major. You said we couldn't say we do this but to say just the same.
We do not require the undergraduate academic majors and a minor in the education and this really doesn't leave room for a minority in broadcasting is really what I'm seeing are we to develop we do you know. Really not really. We really say that we with 18 hours in building 18 hours to go so that is why in addition to those who are in school the education certification 36 hour major and 200 second area so they're here if they're going to really like Woody Allen. Yes but this is this is the test of it in terms of what we mean by an educated person. We're hoping that a teacher. In the school system or a specialized instructor in a college. Or a producers directors program person in the studio would be an
educated person. And an educated person. It seems to me must of necessity be. Broadly aware of. All the disciplines and have some understanding of the interrelationship of discipline. Now isn't that a pretty sad commentary on the development of this educated person. When we take a child out of high school. Who has been subjected to all the pressures of secondary education and immediately before he gets any grounding into the kind of inquiry that's necessary on the collegiate level to start him off with processes and skills of the sort I don't think right. Actually I fully appreciate because often a
practical necessity is that has held us in the past to give teacher education on the undergraduate level. But the result is we will be real honest with ourselves. Back. A generation or two or three of an educated teachers who know more about the methodology of teaching than they know about subject matter and when they go back to graduate school are given more again of how to do it on the basis of what to do. Now this is considered heresy by far but this is true. True but we're doing something about it. All right. The only thing I'm suggesting here is if we add to what we are presently doing even though we're doing something about this part into this new field of communication and we have this to the bird
of undergraduate and diluting the educational content. Of and by educational here I mean for the educated person the knowledge content of the undergraduate school. Are we expecting too much of 15 or 16 or 18 hours of. Sameness. We're going to I'm going to force my way in. I'm going. To get I think we're perhaps in danger of confusing ourselves like ducks but a different breeds exactly and not distinguishing between I think I've been talking for the most part about whether it's necessary I think for a man who is in the broadcasting studio as a producer and director was in the office of an administrator rebroadcasting close closed or open circuit. I think we're talking now about a teacher in the classroom who is very the Knoppix was one of the
consumers you know class of the consumers of televised education and I think we have another thing entirely and there we are we don't need 18 additional units now in how to make use of fatality. I think there would be. First of all as a liberally educated person this teacher what there has been there is not enough of us in the curricular curricula all over the country in my field and what the effects of many of the mass media including television are on our society. We don't understand most and many of us any more about this than we know about the Vatican and we that it's considerably it's of the importance of the second thing is that as a teacher how does education how does television fit into the educational process. Well we might add one more three year course curriculum but I would be opposed to that because I think that what we've all been saying is very true are you going to revolutionize education. And as television becomes a part of the total educational process it will be one of the should be one of those things even
now be one of those that you consider in all educational courses where you talk about educational philosophy. I think you now need to talk about what affects television and on restructuring our world or how it's used in terms of our colossally of education when you talk about methodology. You need to talk about out what how to make use a birthing class and how you follow up west of the televised lesson which Buntin existing courses. My point is that by and large there is there is room for these things and we recognise that we stop training teachers. How to teach in 1938 and start training on how to teach in 1968 which is when they will be in the classroom. If suggesting the revision of the course content rather than the addition of the bricks. That's right out of the needle. This is heresy because I mean and here we are unique and hard. But. Actually our audio visual courses. Are still not happy and people who are trained in television tell the utilization doing television utilization part.
They just take it for granted everything applies this is a police car audio visual courses of the first time in our schools these days and yet we can't measure color and consequently we find that the people who are going out of our institutions and going into the schools are the ones that are not using television. The teachers then business will go out she knows teaching and so forth you know heat of power. She's the one who's turning to television she's the one that I get back and utilization courses which are strictly to how do you use television and I want we harbored radio and television we dropped just the only television and radio and television in the courtroom. So I think there's a there's a job that we have to do all around the other direction and Shruti do you know. The early I think you're right or. You're more so. But the same thing the saying about the fish
thing can be said for a few hours and that is that we consider the stakes for our steady credits to the broadcasting curriculum. You know how do you produce for education's all right and this is goes back to the question I asked really probably is time clarified I don't think there is a difference in treat people for educational television and drinking for commercial television. The persons differ in how he uses it will be good. And just like a man is supposed to go find out something about the back are telling me not to go out go find out something about education and what is needed in the classroom and so on but last last year we had 400 books 400 people come to us for jobs and a place for me. He's the real reformer become dolls for jobs. Listed Now these are the ones really what I'm finding it was less than that given medication and cable stations he'd be delighted with or he would get a
letter from channel to St. Paul's and boy that the producer uses great cancellation St. Louis case radio we feel like didn't start here so I can see those for a while. In our own our own station I might say it is probably three quarters under thirty three. Channel 10 speed cameras and in-breeding who should stop somewhere but we're at least hiring our own people's what we consider their qualified quote educational producer directors. Now. I do feel that there's a problem when you when you go to the in-school production and this is where I go with Dr. Wyman say that it's a master's program in you know in school educational broadcasting or at least with an emphasis there is maybe a real possibility with the Seder something of course you know an educational television program says to us that there are no basic
concepts of programming. Now I disagree because this is where I got a touch and say My golly you know OK maybe we're not going to the mass but to get anybody out of your program worthwhile. But I think I think here if I may my me speaks for me. I think here we go back to what I listed as one of the things brought out here is a problem and I think the mistake is are the problem rather than a mistake as that that was one of semantics. We're not really sure of our definitions when we're talking about educational broadcasting or educational programming on. I have found for a number of years that commercial stations and making their reports to the FCC to make their public service look good for a radio license of listening to big broadcasting of you local college football games and high school football games Education City we're hearing here
and I'm sure that that I will take great exception to some of the fare on Channel 13 and I'm sure that I went on champ to win and Minneapolis and certainly and Channel 10 it so happens there Shia Texas has a knack and I feel that that here we really need to re-examine this thing and I don't think it can be done quickly. But there are some broad principles that that need to be considered when we're trying to define what we mean by education broadcasting obviously educational broadcasting our educational programming. Let's put it this way on television whether it's today.
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Professional Training - Room 8 - Reel 2
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