1961 Couchiching conference; Technology and the developing states

From Geneva park on Lake teaching. We invite you to hear now part of the Sunday evening session of the 30th annual coaching conference. The conference is a summer symposium on national and international affairs arranged by the Canadian Institute on public affairs in cooperation with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. The theme this year is diplomacy and evolution and tonight's topic. Technology and the developing states not to introduce the speakers here is the chairman of the seedlings discussions. Harry Wilson of Toronto economic and financial consultant and a member of the board of directors of the Canadian Institute on public affairs. Mr. Wolfson. It is I suggest rather significant that overall the topic for our conference is diplomacy and evolution. Last night's keynote discussion entitled change the world almost exclusively with the application of science to the needs of the developing states certain central themes emerge from the discussion.

It was readily conceded that the attainment of national independence is not enough and that the emerging communities are rapidly realising that national independence can be but a mirage when hunger and squalor prevail flag waving is no substitute for food and help. And so all new nations in their understandable impatience to telescope time seek the key to their problems in the new magic of technology and turn in bewilderment to what has been called the supermarket of science. But does their salvation really hang upon atomic power. As Professor Blackett at the robot conference it is not the speed. Still more useful to them than the test tube. Unfortunately the key to their problems is not merely the volume of our aid. Even if we share with them in much greater measure than we have in the past

and even with no ideological strings attached. The true determinant of their problem is their capacity to use effectively and efficiently. The hope they seek and the help they receive particularly scientific and technological assistance the introduction of techniques from developed economies may not only be wasteful but indeed could be deeply injurious. When imposed upon burgeon or tired Lans We must indeed be ready to give even if it hurts us. But not in such measures and such manner that it hurts them. But here indeed is where the dilemma arises. The urgencies of the developing states are very acute. Can tangible improvements for the masses be achieved within a time

period that does not outrun their impatiens confronted as they are with this sense of extreme urgency. Can they and will they adopt even in a modified form of our own free institutions which though eminently appropriate for our societies can hardly function where the basic preconditions do not prevail. Must the emerging nations really look to the Chinese form of regimentation as the only effective means of achieving their salvation. Can we perhaps find a guide in community organizations such as the producers cooperatives of Denmark Israel or our own Antigonish fishing cooperatives or perhaps there's hope lie in a blend of limited freedoms and benevolent talk recy so that the developing areas can make adequate haste

and yet not jettison entirely the basic precepts and values which we Cardinall for the lasting dignity of all men. This then is the prime political problem which engages the developing states. It is not as some would see it the ideological conflicts between nature and Russia or east and west. Their quandary is whether by adopting some of our democratic forms adapting them to their own local conditions superimposing a measure of regimentation and direction. They can convert our aid effectively and rapidly and thus avoid the blandishments of the Chinese pattern. And will the developing states have the determination and the courage to forego the trappings of modern industry in favor of the more prosaic but sounder development of their resources both

natural and human. Last night reference was made in humor to semantics the meaning of words as it affected international relations both private and public. Tonight we should perhaps recognize that there may indeed be a question of semantics regarding the meaning of our conference diplomacy and evolution. The purpose of this conference is to examine among other matters the new factors which are emerging to influence relations between states. What new international institutions and groupings have appeared on the scene in recent years. The United Nations together with all its ancillary institutions the Common Market the Bandung Cochran's and others of similar character. Are they pursue the tasks of the emerging states. Are they

adequate for their purpose. Do they require modification elimination or extension. Do they offer suitable machinery to cope with the raw material of diplomacy which is the International Relations between national communities. Is the function of the international organizations to export to democratic forms and principles to new nations or should they be mainly concerned with assuring adequate help for efficiently administered areas. What can modern departed diplomacy offer as a guide to developing states in the resolution of the difficulties that the set them internally in their relations with similarly emerging nations. And finally in their partnership with older established nations to assist us in an exploration of these and allied questions we are fortunate in having with us tonight two distinguished visitors their

contribution tonight will form only a portion of the views and experiences which they will share with us during the forthcoming session. During this week when other aspects of the general team will be subject to examination. Miss yonder comes to us from France where he is an eminent statesman and teacher a member of the French parliament. Before the war he was a leading member of the French Resistance in 1942. He was the minister of the interior of France in 47 48. Minister of Finance from 49 to 52 minister of economics presently he is a distinguished professor at the University of Paris and a leading architect in the creation of the unified Socialist Party in a unifying your limbs with the independence of the dedicated intellectual with the wider horizons that are imposed by modern society and modern

Europe. Mr. Borat comes from an older civilization a man of excellent training a rich experience a couple's intellectual discipline with native insight. And this enables him to assess with particular relevance the welter of problems which emerge when modern aspirations are imposed upon new societies or old societies. Faced with newly found independence and I'll give you miss you for the. Mr Chairman ladies and gentleman I should like to present to you some observations. Under the din and under principles of a policy which we should have in my opinion in the relations ways we deal with the and adept up country. I just bring the principle and I hope that

in the discussion period we have the possibility of getting more into detail. We have some pretty ubiquity. What I read of the prerequisite of Independence and the prerequisites of entailed dependence. It is impossible for a new country all foreign old country would begin to deadlock meant to do anything. If he does not have political independence and complete political independence because people won't wear it if they don't find that they are where King Fahd himself. And what is true of the country is true of what is the great majority of the population of the country defilement. There is no possibility of economic development if before all the farm has not been put in a situation where he will take

profit out of his own wealth and we know be dependent for me cry on a bigger land over now all from the usual problem didn't middleman Neues donating to market so that the agri generate foam. Even if it is realized that the expense of some financial interests linked with our own countries and the organization of big enough connection markets have a pretty terrific wisit to economic development. This vote independence. But we have also to look at the prerequisites of entire dependence because even when the country has got independence this country remains depending on the other people on the economy. As at the present time the under developed countries our producers offer all makyo

units a Greek or tomorrow industry and they depend on the price we paid for what dey do export and we have to realize that in the year that people pay seven fifty eight for the price of room at here you'll see the world market has been making these count raise lose six times small died when did receive at the time through the Weald bank and help coming from the west. So the first thing is to find some devices for a minimum stabbing ideation of the prices of our own materials in the world and also when these countries begin to industrialize they feel the necessity to expose the products of their industry to play textiles into our own countries in order to earn the necessary money.

Currencies in order to buy the machinery which is they say sorry for the economic development and we have to accept it. To organize perhaps through international agreement is quite a regular increase of the export of these industries and to organize. I lanced exchange of goods between these countries and I'll say and I say at the beginning that if the underdeveloped countries doesn't have independence doesn't have a gravy and reforms doesn't have to be patient of the price has to offer and a minimum opening of the border and lowering of carrots for their first industrial goods. It is not useful to go on with what I am going to say now because already East will be simply I use

words without any real usefulness. If the prerequisites has not been entirely satisfied before. SECOND NOW WE GOOD quite into the problem. Two things IPL quite clear. One is that the countries cannot me part of my journey in their development alone and they need external and external help cannot come the weight came in the 19th century through investment of private capital. First the majority of these companies. Cannot make dey own Dave look meant completely. They have to do it but I don't know if quite clearly they have to reanalyze them send the must of the sacrifices of the primitive accumulation of capital.

But if they can't do it because they find but to next time and the usefulness of the external aid is to be directed directly at the button NIC which does exist at a given time. You know order to enable the interested country to go through its own wealth and eat it. But it's quite clear that the method used by China doesn't seem to be adopted by the majority of the country. If one of these country is very very big like Russia like China it is possible. To accumulate inefficient a computer not to price carry the sufferings of the population to Spain for but it is possible. But I venture to say that for a

smaller country like the majority of African or Latino American country it is not even possible because the possibilities are too small or did even cation all of the production. It's not enough to enable a country to make help devlopment quite alone. They need and extend now these extend a helping of 19th century came through doing it through the capitalistic world which was done in and at that time you know got a 19th century pulp 75 years of British friends invested 7.5 percent of their national income into debt up countries that time cannot die United States Australia and so on and so on. I think it is because of this investment that these countries

become became great industrial companies today. But curiously enough at the present time we are investing on a tool a little more than 2 percent of our national income putting together out public health private investment and so on and so on. Not a total what we did in the 19th century and one I would venture to say that first private capital doesn't go in you know in newly developing countries because the risks at home that day where in the 19th century we are now getting into the well and even those who speak of free enterprise. I might be seeing some salt for planning even without seeing it and so do I could I don't know of any new countries fighting fodder in depth I didn't see bigger.

So it's quite clear that private capital he's not so much going away and when he goes I don't goes to your robot to kind of act but not so much in debt and other developed countries. But I would say that when you do what private capital does is not always the best thing. And it goes into speculation and into trade in order to take benefits of the variation of the prices of imports and exports. And it's not about the best interests of the country consumed or sometime it goes to reinvestment by day companies. But then they are putting in very highly probably sleep technique an industry lobby so psyche which remains at the 16th or 17th century and there is no connection between the two types of production indicators where there

was a kind of to have a connection indicates that the planning of Iraq was before the investment Gharyan the reform was not made. The only result was to make it a little richer the average stock actually of the big land overdoes and to create multi figure it is not a majority of the people so that you had the report and deliberation of Iraq as one of the reasons. It seems that private capital when it comes to loonies not bringing it really is something positive. If I'm thinking of some example of Africa I think of a situation when private capital comes and build up a big dam and perhaps find books it tries to begin as you mean you can't and during the time of the bidding he's making a tremendous appeal of welcome and the workers leave the village and the social life of defeat it is these organize

and then when the dam is built and when if any progress if technically up to date plant works and does not need very many were already she's thrown out and the result is society's entirely dissolved and if one wants to introduce such a program a CVS brand one has at the same time to transform the condition of agriculture and one has at the same time to develop beside small industries you know order to create a national region or market to react saw girls went down after the building of the dime. All the debating ought to be done. Which means that these has to be done inside offi planning governing the whole route of agriculture and of the different types of industry. Now planning is an absolute necessity for the development of these countries.

I don't because sometimes they used it without planning and I got an impression and I put simply old dandies I Alza one after the other. That guy name means option and I would put as the first option is the creation of this fact this fickle instrument which made their mistakes. Which one is bound to commit. Defense thing is to create the unit of measurement of your own mistakes. You know to know them and to be able to make them on time. All the reasons may be catastrophic. I've got choices. Let us remember that before oh I just got an evolution where somewhere else we had the agricultural revolution and enclosure movement in England and I just think to do we usually differ loping countries

now using a faggot culture in order to be able to feed it to people while going to India in just three weeks is going to be created not a revolution of angry culture but simply a progress. Better seeds better instruments. I dumped the conditions of the cum train every time we have been trying to make it big. Taken you could revolutionize Greek culture that I sometimes been at that's right Rick because I felt the people did not understand what we have to do at any time to really for the people to do how you want them to one day. Ah I dipped brazen time and progress little by little from one level to the other endangered street I used a big ocean between my doom industry technical capability.

And concentrated on the production of the machinery under consumers industry now everything is different from one country to another according to his capacity. I need to need to have a little of both but I may venture to say that if it is an efficient way to have some big Modi'in industries for export to the currencies necessary to buy some moment you know one has to think fast to give mean pro-human due to people who haven't got anything. And so to use very much labor intensive production at least at the beginning and to create a smoke even if she fired to mock it. Janie arise in different places in order to find an outlet for up addiction Crees of the conduct of the life of the people. If one tries to go to Dame must progress techniques at the beginning at

least to a bit during danger may get better your day will be in big information or a process and sometimes the result will be quite steep. No one here out of problems. And it's quite clear that in order to be a good country in you it's necessary to have an important leader was got power and authority and it's impossible to introduce in discount rate a type of parliamentary democracy to which we all use now. We are used and we get that we did not introduce democracy in our country is before the first they couldn't make progress had to be made and before we too was possible to satisfy did need of the people by giving them all the hype we had documents before all

but value meant the same thing as democracy parliament was created for all the obvious talk to country lord. I think it is some 50 or 80 100 years later that uni Besson shit for ages been using documents in favor of democracy. So it's quite clear that ball game is going to be the same thing. I think that what we have to try and what we have to ask these people is to keep opening it. I'M BY idea of an opening of democracy. I mean a pussy BTP up discussion. I mean to relate to people who are in power in DC daily but it's so cute of power and to be good enough for all of them to create something which can be

friendly week higher than they need you know to not to be there to find them something and perhaps another copy of it is possible but I believe free press but I'm a liberal movement. They use movement it women's movement. So even Sci-Fi cation we introduce the beginning of rallies. If these does exist I see that I go see Beattie days of the devlopment whole cult of fiction and we must not ask not expect moan at the beginning because at the beginning it is this fish are a too obvious stronger story people love you guys do a whole repopulation to Wells to fight against hunger and to fight against nature and to fight against space and we what can we do. I think that we need to have it.

Considering that these help is simply a paying the regular income tax we've seen every source I did good will have to pay me you know to to help those who yet don't have a genuine rosy tease. Just think all the deanery TV Could you take. I don't praise in time we don't have to need to ask too much because it's not the sisterly to say too much. If they cannot help you to be you can also have it purely district people effect at any given time be adapted exactly to the possibilities and I think that we could have a program of really good at helping to end up dead up countries Iif we all are devoted to eternally why not two per cent of our national income at the present time. Which of course we are very far from doing. But if we do it we have to realize that.

Depression has to come from the country. So I would rather say from to come tres cunts. And when day I'll smoke or ones like you know America Africa it's better for all of them to get to get into preparation of their prime and to have a prime for a group of countries at the same time to have negotiated with the countries which can bring some help and to have it negotiated through national. I don't enter yet into deep caves. I don't see how it's to be read you're not organization like Europe all of the United Nations. The essential thing is that these organizations be national.

Fast have enough money to give a guarantee for all for all five years and go out from Dish cupidity of the annual vote of the budget which he's already stupid for us but completely impossible when one has to deal with and update the countries because the euro is not a reality in the economy. One has to give longer periods and then the negotiation has to be done through a group which is independent from the government you know to to throw out any military incursions and to have it given to the people here I think I may see that to most important thing is not only to elaborate quite good technique but to should look to the developed countries. He studied

right back then. Wanting to give to him and then to give. Today people who look not by my lens noted by Tory can't you guys ation that through negotiation discussion it de-centralized running to progress a step by step toward the betterment of the country sion of life of their people by making an appeal to the need to create give of each individual and look at a community. Thank you Mr. Thank you very much indeed. And now to comment upon

his remarks and observations. I will ask Mr. Boyd. So ladies and gentlemen my objective here is not so much to comment on the entirely on exceptionable principles that Philip has propounded but to reassure him that we have in India carried them out. We became free in 1947 and for the first three years we were preparing for the plan in exactly the way that Professor Philip desires up as you know other countries to follow. We had points to evolve the democratic constitution. We hadn't used a large measure out of a grade in the fall. We had established a certain amount of political stability. We had the first election under the

system of universal franchise. And present Philip you'll be glad to know that we had also contrived to discover a leader to carry us forward. Indiscreet adventure. But this apparently was not totally educate one of the pups. We found that we were born in a divided world and we had to live in it and we had to progress in it. We had to take account of the world as it was in 1980. Just about the time when we became free there was still DDD Fardy the warden in the China was still being we soon after came the Korean wall. And

not only that there was the perineal danger of a larger war looming long. The choice offered us in this peculiar world was of joining the Russian bloc which is utterly distasteful to us for more reasons than one. Joining me are American block but that too had certain amount of danger ahead. We were although we are newly freed we are not a careful not losing any element of the newly Green Fleet. Therefore we follow the third cost of freedom to think freedom to decide

for ourselves in this dangerous way. It was a very difficult past two leaders. It was so simple far for it is so simple I should say continues to be so for any country to join a plot. And then in the United Nations behind your perspective but that is not what we did. We followed the more difficult cause. It was liable to be misunderstood as indeed we have understood more than once. But it suited of a genius. It was in conformity with history. Our geographical needs and of a conviction that we may be a new country. But we have something to impart to the world. This is into the type of diplomacy which

meets our economic needs and it also fulfill of a critical wish. It has also in practice I think served as a stabilizing factor in the world. This is evidenced by the role India has played in bringing about the closure of the China settlement the end of the Korean War and or the series. The list could be linked. We are very much in Congo at present. We could play this role only because of the trust policies and among the competence. Order the detachment we brought to bear upon problems as the sole guiding principle of India in this respect was peace

and for the good fisheries we could not possibly progress as we found out repartee enough did in the very brief period of the Dispy of the cost of the plan went up by 20 percent. Some doubts of course have all have arisen regarding the efficacious policy for instance in relation to Pakistan and I would venture to suggest to you that this problem has been greatly complicated by the way the military balance has been disturbed in the south in the subcontinent by the supply of military aid by the US. This is also been put in of relations with China. It has grabbed about five square miles of a dock which is probably no East and

in this case it is one silver lining probably not the only one. That policy has brought to suffer a certain rift between Russia and the communist China. Russia has adopted an attitude of friendly neutrality in this dispute. She has never done in any other dispute in relation to her great ally China. Russia has also US against repeat helicopters and other materials for use on the Indochina border so you might see a finding of fighting China with the help Russia to some extent. Form of diplomacy which combined with the rest of the

world the force of this concept in the surrounding area. Certain amount of success. Africa possibly. It has of course meaning problem. How to loosen up the blocks which have hardened into this intractable position and how to spread over diplomatic to be country. And I think the solution of the future possibly depend to the measure of success in this. Well we have now heard the presentation by the

observations of Mr. Byrd and we welcome any questions from the floor. There are persons in the world to take the microphones to anybody wishing to pose a question gentlemen. Mr. Carroll I would like to have said so. How could I believe that the speaker has reservations about capital accumulating. What does he think would be the most constructive method in the circumstances that we increasing the supply of it. Where the question is how in the end of the country

can the capital would be a grave industrial capital investment capital would be raised now if you think the example of history had interesting eyes ation of Japan's capital was extract it almost entirely out of what was the majority of the population. The farmers and he didn't and don't 936 the taxes speed bad to farmers that land tax free present in more than 80 percent of the budget. That this had been possible because before that day I'd been throwing away the land all day I beat it Keating the farmers and dab you know pinning any increases in the agricultural production to a neighborhood a farmer I just seem time to feed imagine you're eating up the cost of industrialization and to increase its

own stand up. Right now my guess is that beginning problem Madhuri of these countries it is from the land that the resources will come this far this reason that I think that a fairness thing is a transformation of Agriculture. The progress of the conditions of the crop besides that you may have a certain number of direct taxes keep imported goods because you have got sometimes in this city it is the west coming bourgeois elite which has an entirely different kind of life from the majority of their population and which is almost entirely living on imported goods. So

a taxation of these important looks very good. Quite actively look to the rest of the population. We'll bring the country beautician of these type of people and I think this will be the most important of resources at the beginning. Then you know as much as the industry gardens. It will be possible to have a regular income tax but then can't do it at the beginning but at the same time. I didn't say that I was opposed to the investment coming. From private capital through profit. It may be useful to provide that the investment is made in to read and saw the rewards. If that belief in the plan of the country what you perceive is the purely in deep value

investment which in the beginning of and developed countries almost always goes to trade and peculation our land and houses and not the dollar in industrial production. Thank you. Question of. First of all I would like to ask you a question. What effect has a five year plan that you had had on the per capita national income has resulted in an improvement in the lot of the person. Or have you mean merely in order to keep up in the same people. I'm glad you asked me this question because I can think the effect of technological development particularly adverse effects is not usually talked about. Two things have really complicated our problem is the discovery of

DDT. But for the plant the most unwanted thing. In the past criminals took care of populations and saw nothing but the discovery European countries which we have adopted an effectively have a population. As you can see from 350 million to four hundred and thirty eight million and beyond local conditions we were counting on something like a little over 400 million. And that was the whole plan. The last long and largest will not be able to find out the cause of it.

We would think possibly some people food and disappearing in some corners but it is not that we have discovered it had gone and gone into the early on. And it has. Make it a problem and this is one of the effects of technological defense and to chart a course not to be deprived upon because the solution of the problem I guess lies in that science will see him solve the problems it creates. Question. First of all the considerable respect. The point about semantics that I was not raised and I don't think it was true. I think it's quite a problem.

Certainly. Max I was wondering if he would agree that one of anger in this whole matter of training in public administration. I noticed. Extraordinary. Plame was used and that was done at the national level. It will have to be done largely by public servants and I was wondering. Elaborate on any suggestion about training public administrators. Regarding the distinguished gentleman from. I would.

A discussion of the cost of topological development. Whether or not he has been serving as an example of the possibility of a telescope revolution. Well the first question is if the problem of training African ministry. Now I hear there are a great number of questions. Are you Greek debt. Training publican ministration and then training after the basic population also. Is perhaps the most important. Here we are feeding a certain number of difficulties in may need under developed countries there is an old tradition

where manual work was the work of the sleeve and as soon as one had some intellect he went to the station and power and I think one of the first thing is to bridge this difference and decent governance between the majority of the population who isn't defeated. And intellectualism. Why soon as these From want to go in and mini station and high posts of the I minister. I had presently a bit curious experience myself. I am Kellerman in France of the French federation of youth culture house which is in the city the

center of the cultural life of the young people and I've got the school where I am at training. Did you Director of such houses. African friends were interested and asked me to receive in part is the now school for one year except a number of young people. You don't have to learn to use houses in different states in Africa and I had them for one year 15 of them. But one year after when they came back to Africa none of them was directing a youth houses there where almost all of them ministers of use in the government. Now that shows that that had been we need some good training but the training I had been made and I think that if it ain't potent thing it's to try to ask the most important thing is to train the people in the media not the leader that people need to meet them.

And the people. What you have to try to train them where they are and not to bring them in foreign countries not even in the capital of their own country because the might of the video when he has been in order to receive some training outside of its video refused to go back. So we have two things at the same time talk and we have to create an experience and your cost to bring gaming where some countries can provide it and to train the people we need the brains of planning at the beginning. But I believe that the most important thing is to change the habits were indicated and doing Crees the agricultural production. I think that the most important thing is to build a village. People who are going to be needed

by all the village. And I have been during two years and that drives up the depressed state of me and I meet Can you about D.C. experience because I think it's quite typical. When I arrived they told me we want to take you back. I said no but I guess that you see we don't know what our population is so we don't know what I should eat. And then I organized a commission. People of all groups and we had discussion and that discussion and day to day became conscious of their problems deeply the young elements quite well and the only thing I did was to make some practical wouldn't be seen dead so I said All right.

If anything you ask him to take me up track and then a prepared speech. I need to do yes but I must talk to think we have to be in the eyes and everything. And then we take them to a few projects even if it would be possible to ask. And people are able to know what national accountability isn't to calculate a national income and the output input. Not too much but you get big groups and VCs going now and then at the same time I went in touch with a former student of mine and he's now denied secretary of this week's US cognitive Association looked at two or three radians indomie where people had some tradition of mutuality all age groups and some Sunny Danny

and we took one day and some people will receive a suspicious training in some type of agriculture which appears to be specially suited fault places and we are now preparing to eat the religious leaders copied ages away I've been accepting to bring together some and you know to be corporate IP exploitation of the land. The director was been spatially fault. But we think that the Chinese method because everything is voluntary and you take as your ground an existing country but you mobilize the people voluntarily. Look at TV. They feed the result so that they can relate to the beat up on the other which has been

specially prepared. I think this is really the most important people to do the training but to do that taken the training to introduce our school system from the west and you know to generate a set of people who have the most extreme nationalists we have the people who are insisting to introduce absolutely the French system of education. They believe that they would be looked upon as favor the French system of education. Now that's not what they need to have to be today. According to this it is build up at the beginning around the rebuilding of the beach which I think is the problem to solve. Thank you Mr. Moore. I presume I understood the question. The question is whether India can say as an example for

the rest of the country. Metro planning is that. Is that the question. Not specifically what I have in mind is this question of what have been called the telescope revolution from a lot of rock that you current telescope things to match and that in a map perhaps been example of a telescope technological revolution. Well I was wondering if you would elaborate on the promise of man. We haven't achieved it. What you might call technological revolution and such but we have achieved I think a fair measure of success in economic development through a planned economy. Now if I may be permitted to

elaborate on this I think that the credit for the concept of planning would probably go to Russia. We bought a thing from them as I presume unaligned country. We can be permitted to create the concept as such need not the whole thing as indeed we have done. So that is point one. I think the credit should go live. Second we would give you the listening to part of the evening session of the 1961 coaching countryman's broadcast live from the conference hall on the shore of Lake Nira Radia Ontario. The conference is arranged by the Canadian Institute on public affairs in cooperation with the

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and sessions continue until next Friday evening listeners planning to hear or attend the sessions. I should note that on Wednesday evening and Friday evening the meeting will begin at 7:30 Eastern Daylight Time. Half an hour earlier than the usual starting time transcripts of the papers presented and the discussions taking place will be available about two months after the conference ends. From the University of Toronto press Toronto five Ontario prices $2. That address again. University of Toronto press Toronto five Ontario tomorrow evening at 8:00 Eastern daylight time we shall again be broadcasting direct from the conference hall and the subject will be the politics of Independence. Bob Wilson speaking this is CBC Radio the TransCanada network.