Midday; Electoral college

As we promised you we're going to talk a little bit about the Electoral College. One of the things that I am finding out in my advanced age is that things are not always what they seem to be. For instance I was standing in the conference room of the office where I work during the week and talking to someone about how we can actually go and I said gee you know I've never in the flesh seen an elector I want to say really exist and so forth and this person said well you're standing next to one. And so I asked Roger Frank if he would consent to join me this morning and talk about the Electoral College and for the next 20 minutes or so we're going to do that. First of all is it safe to say that there is no campus for the Electoral College. Well that's a very safe assumption. It's a long held tradition that we don't have a campus for the colleges no football team and we aren't even in a bowl game this year. OK. It is sort of a secure institution not in theory but in fact most people have never seen intellect or they don't know what it is. They have no idea what it's all about.

Well in Electoral College the Electoral College process gets rather lost I think because as the election takes place and we hear the the folks on radio and television make their projections and say the 10 electoral votes in Minnesota are going to Carter in this case. Carter last time Nixon before that. They once that's done people rather forget about the collies they aren't aware that the luck tours will meet again in December to formally cast a vote which is transmitted to the secretary of the House of Representatives and the president the Senate and then the tally is made later on in early January. And then we decide who the president is and what what is going on is merely following a constitutional edict that's all. You answered one of my questions and that was how many electors does Minnesota have. But how is that determined. The number of electors a state has is determined by the

very simple procedure. The number of U.S. senators that is two is added to the number of congressional districts. The state has Minnesota has eight so we have 10. 10 electoral votes in Minnesota and the fact that we have 10 makes us just a very medium sized state in far as electoral packages go. Some states have as few as three and as you know California has 45 I believe due to areas such as Washington D.C. and have them District. Columbia has three electors I think as you can tell by my witty conversation about this. My familiarity with electorial electoral colleges is based mainly on I Minnesota experiences. OK but I know that as I look at the news magazines and newspapers I see them identifying various electoral values to states have you. Have you done much since you are an elector now in fact have you done much reading about the original thoughts of the founding fathers on the electoral college why why this

and this set up is it is it that they didn't trust the elect in the electorate or if i hope that no one takes the answer to this question as a basis for their response in a test in American history. But it's my understanding that when we put this country together there was a problem with. Respect or trust for the common man. So it was proper that very significant people in the community were identified to take the voting totals and bring them to a central place where a decision could be made. You get remember in early eighteen hundreds they didn't have the communication procedures we have now where we can flash something on a screen or pick up a telephone and call in. They had to physically hand carry the tallies to the location where the tallies were being computed in total. So that's that is why we have electors. That's one of the reasons why and they used to have to get the stagecoach and ride cross-country from

new all Minnesota to St. Paul to cast their vote and that took a considerable amount of time. It was a very significant step because the vote was very important as it is now. I don't know how old you have to be to remember this but there was a time when the U.S. Senators were not selected by the by a direct vote of the people. That only happened about I think an 1013 of rational men constitutional men was passed to allow that. That was a job done by the legislature. So that was not to say there is not trust of the people is one thing that I guess they just the is an old feeling that there was an old feeling that the people were not as well educated in the earlier days and now they're better able to make those decisions for themselves because I guess education is a big thing. Compulsory education. There is speculation every presidential year that the popular vote might be different than greater than perhaps the electoral vote in favor of a candidate in other words let's say during this past election there was speculation that Jimmy

Carter's popular vote total might be higher than his than his opponents but that the electoral vote would go his way and consequently there are moves by comes to mind. As a longtime campaigner against a college are you a supporter of the Electoral College concept and if so why. I support the Electoral College concept. I guess there are two reasons One is I'm not a very good reason and that is because that's the way it is and that's that's not a very good reason to support it. But one reason I support it is because the other reason is because it makes Minnesota a a contest ground. If there were no Electoral College and we went totally on popular vote there would be very little reason to for one to concerns or concern oneself with. With Minnesota we really don't have a national election we have 50 elections as what we have for a presidency and a person who in order to win must carry enough states with enough electoral votes to win the

election. If we just if we just cut it back to popular vote I think we'd end up with more campaign than ever being done on television. More campaign than ever being done on radio and through through the media. Probably very few live visits anywhere. A candidate's gotta stir up interest in his candidacy. And the best way to do it is get out with the folks and see you I think. Isn't there a counter argument that says that there are some states that are paid very little attention because they have very few electoral votes and that the heavy campaigning goes on in California and New York. Well that's right you're right that's very true. But can you imagine how little attention they get if they didn't have an electoral vote with no electoral votes they probably get no attention except the court would ever see a presidential candidate I doubt it. OK. Let's talk a little bit about your position as an elector or you obviously did not do this because you wanted to gain the limelight. It's not it is not a highly visible position.

That's a fact. That fact my my involved with electoral college is based on a couple things. One is get I understand it becoming intellect or is a unique situation because it's done every four years at the Congressional District Convention. And every four years at the state political convention at the Congressional District Convention they elect the elect or to be to represent the congressional district at the state convention they elect to elect doors to represent the two US Senators. I've been rather active in the Democratic Party since about 1960 I guess and I've been to congressional district conventions. I think every year that they've held them and we've always had to at the last minute look at our list of nominations coming out of committee and say who we are who's going to be elected. We've got to hunt down a person and the

electorate's position ends up being. I have an honorary thing it's kind of a salute to some old codger who just hung around for a while and been a good person and worked hard for the party and it would let old what's his name. Well I hold Roger for me out of this here. That's that's about right. As a matter of fact I went to the damning Committee this year at our district convention and I said I'm here to just take a lot of pressure off because I've chaired this committee every two years for about six years. And I said that we've always had to scratch and scratch to find a candidate for the position of elect or so I am the candidate for electorate and almost in unison about 20 miles dropped open. And the one that wasn't open said What's an elector and I don't fault anyone for that they elect or is just it's a phantom is what it is. And. But I I received a nomination I was elected and another reason I have a small interest in the elector's office I was very fortunate to work on the staff of Governor Wendell

Anderson. And in in one thousand the presidential election one hundred seventy two. This is the governor's office has a responsibility in handling the electoral process the voting process and the governor asked me to work with member Warren spanners the staff I've had cheese to to kind of research see what obligation the state has the governor's office has an attorney general's office has a secretary of state's office in this whole process. So by banshees did a really solid study and gave me a memo on it he and I sat down and worked out everything. So we were all set for the electors meeting and if you strange thing that's strange unique things about the electors if you want me to just sure take a minute or two more. Yeah. As I recall that memo that we used in 1972 and in 76 it says that the electorial must appear in the governor's office the day prior to the meeting of the electors and that is written in the law. And I understand the reason for that to be because in the old times when the Elector had to come in by horseback from Rosso

Minnesota for example they wanted to make certain that he that the electorate was going to be there the day the electors were to meet so if he wasn't there the night before they were worried about him being there the next day. So in order to make certain that the electors there on Tuesday they want the Elector there on Monday night or Monday afternoon. So you have to put in a formal appearance and say to Governor Quinn I'm here. That's I don't know. See I would guess that depends on how Governor Quinn and his staff handle it. They may want to. They may choose to waive that and say look we're not you know you live in Burnsville I think you can probably find your way to St. Paul tomorrow morning. I don't know what they're going to do. I don't know that I shouldn't even say that Governor Quinn a staff because I don't remember who handles that I think whoever handles it is someone who finally said I think it's my job maybe to a Secretary of State John Breaux might might take that I don't know. And I want to make it clear if those folks are listening I'm not sitting around complaining about what they're doing or not doing or making assignments to them just that I think someone will make a decision that here's how we're going to do.

I know that four years ago John Breaux did a very good job of bringing the electors together of discussing electoral policy and activity with them and out of that meeting of the electorate meeting came a recommendation to Congress that some action be taken on amending the Electoral College and some way I forgot what the action was. But there was something down that time as I recall. So being an elector really hasn't affected your life all that much nor will it in the future. I think that. I feel kind of comfortable that I'm one of this pride about the 50th or 55 first election we've had. I will be one of fifty one people who have ever had this job in the second congressional district that on a dime will get me a phone call I think. All right so once again a congressional district. Caucus conventions each elect one elector. That's correct. And then the state convention likes to. Now if if Ronald Reagan had won the state you would not be elect That's correct that's correct so the Republicans would pick Republicans picked a slate of electors who did not. Yes it's really the Republican

electors of Minnesota running against the minute the Democratic electors. And in 1900 too and President Nixon carried the state put the program together and the Republican electors came in and there were some people there I knew and recognized. And in 76 when Mr. Carter Mr. Mondale carried the state I recall seeing all the Democrats around the table and the voters a voter especially when it's preordained as a result of these states citizens making its decision. You told me I think during the week that you've gotten a call so apparently you were not totally obscure people have access to you as a way of finding out a strange call. I got back to work the other day and I had a note my desk and said Please call so-and-so about the Electoral College and I apologize if that person is listening but I forgot the person's name. But he said I'm a schoolteacher and I understand that you are an elector or and I'm a Democrat and I just wondered how did you get that job. And I proceeded to tell him and I said if you're a teacher why don't you know how I got the job.

If you teach the kids about this sort of thing why am I. He said you know maybe you're right. But he asked me how I got it and I told him that I was a long term long time pollen I had just hung around and they were taking Satta taking care of us older fellows that needed some attention probably. But because it's a once every four year shot and they'll probably be will be covered I suppose as we have in the past by the television radio and newspaper and more as a lark as opposed any real news item is more of a feature item I would think Mark than a big news item Electoral College meets I don't think we've ever had a headline. All right let's let's. Long as we're on that subject let's talk about the chances of electoral college doing something crazy some sort of concerted lobbying effort and big buy off and let's say that someone with billions of dollars goes around and says Raj will make you a millionaire if you vote for so-and-so is there or is there a potential for fraud in the Electoral College. Gosh I don't think so I'll tell you what. You would have to affect so many people. And it would have to be pulled off with clock like precision.

It would have to be done in supreme and ultimate secrecy to pull off a coup like that. It would be easier to get the folks out of Iran I think than and put something like this together. I know that if somebody came to me and said we've got two hundred and seventy two hundred sixty nine electors what we need two hundred seventy to pull this off. Here's two million dollars would you do it. I take my debtors I'd be so happy that almost asked me to do it probably but I don't. I just think it's too complicated and I also think regardless of what the public's attitude is toward politicians I think by and large ninety nine point something or other percent of politicians are honest you gotta remember that

in politics all you've got going for you is your word handshake and you don't get very far in politics. If early on in your political career other politicians find your word is worthless that you promise to do something you won't do it. I just think it's it might make a great novel or a wonderful film by somebody. But it's pretty far fetched. There is a possibility isn't there that one or two electors like tours may throw caution to the winds and vote for Mickey Mouse or not make a mouse yappy But Ed Clark I think I think that in 1968. And elect or in the south. Jumped off the Democratic group and voted for for WALLACE I'm not sure but that sticks in my memory. You know I've toyed you when you sit around with this kind of thing and you say to yourself what's going on what are you going to do. Well obviously I'm going to go there and vote for Jimmy Carter for president Mr. Mondale for vice president because that's what I directed to do. But if I chose to vote for Walter

Mondale for president and Jimmy Carter for vice president I'm not sure that there's any punishment for doing that. I was going to ask you if you're under any sort of obligation. Mark I don't believe we are except public pressure or ridicule or I would think that that would make Mr. Mondale kind of unhappy if I were to do something that goofy. Because he is a respecter of the system and I would not do anything that bears him into good state of Minnesota. And I think it also be a dumb thing for me to do personally. Other than that one phone call we talked about have you had any sort of lobbying pressure. You know very low profile. I think that we're going to be like Haley's Comet except once every 75 years is once every four years we're going to pop up and they're going to say here they are again folks. And there they go. And that's all it's going to be. Do you know who your other fellow electors are.

No I don't. And easy enough to find out I think of it. I know that if a person wants to discover who the electors are in the state of Minnesota they call the state DFL office. And in that list can be given to the people. But. I suspect that when I go to the electors meeting and look around the table I'll see people like myself who that I've seen at conventions for years and just a tad of the gray in the hair a little loose of the job. Maybe that sort of thing. But they'll be there proudly doing their job as I think I will be. And I guess I'd rather selfish aspect of my role. I will be reapportionment next time and I may not be in the 2nd District next time to get a shot at this position and nobody else really wanted it I did if I did have opposition a nomination from the floor against me. During the voting procedure or just nomination by the committee doesn't always work in the Democratic Party I suppose a Republican either. But I had competition from the floor and respecting ages the voters did they thought that that old guy really have a shot at it after all

those years. Do you get a plaque or anything when you're not. Selfishly I hope we do. And I'm not going to sit here and tell the people who put it together how to do it. But. We rushed out and made out. I don't know how many certificates we put together when I was a governor Anderson. Maybe a hundred I don't know if we made a hundred at last as only for 40 or 40 years but I don't know where they'd be in that governor's office. But we gave everyone a little citation that said they were in Elect or in the presidential election of so-and-so. That might be a neat thing to have and I'm not soliciting for it. But it would be a nice little moment oh OK let's tell our listeners it's five minutes to nine and this is the news and information service of Minnesota Public Radio. We're talking with Roger Frank who is an actual member of the Electoral College and who will on December 10th I think it's December 15th. I don't know if a date is set always or if it's like the third Wednesday of the month but I read somewhere it was December 15th. But I'm sure that I'll be notified and it will be in the press and so on. So

on that day or on the previous day you'll go up and make an appearance. If you if that's what we're directed to do I know the law calls for that. But people are pretty dependable nowadays and unless there's a prospect of a very foul weather and having trouble getting in from Minnesota that's the hometown of one of the electors. I'm not sure that would be great pressure that a person has to be there. I don't know what will happen it depends on the organizers and I think if you buy pages in an ad buy pages from Attorney General Spanish and others you know the process as well as anyone in the state because he has worked on it and I know that the secretary grows offices worked on it so there is not going to be any mess ups we're going to get our votes in and it will be sent to the secretary of the House of Representatives. That was one thing when I was covering the legislature for another radio station and I was over there for about four years. It was sort of fascinating to me to see beyond the theory of how things worked.

Let's see there was a there was a basket where the bills were put and so forth you know the mechanics of actually how it was done were fascinating to me. What what are the mechanics of the electoral vote do you fill out a ballot. Do you call Jimmy Carter and say Urd. Well the best of my memory. The governor's office will be sent or maybe the secretary of state's office I forgot will be sent in and the envelope will contain ballots and the ballots must be followed in a certain manner or procedure. Your vote I think you vote for the vice president first and then you sign the ballot and they then they tally the ballots and fill it out and there's this. There's a delegation leader who's responsible to do that a delegation secretary and so on. It's very formalized so that there is accountability. Once that is done then you vote for the president then you go through the process again of counting and becoming accountable and then they're put in a special and loping they're forwarded to the secretary of the House of Representatives. And then

on some data I think in early January those ballots are counted and lo and behold we have ourselves a president and vice president. We went over this earlier when we had a call from someone asking about the electoral college as opposed to the popular vote and whether or not the Electoral College could in fact be abolished. Well in order to be abolished you have to have a constitutional amendment by as you mentioned earlier was a great leader in abolishing the Electoral College. As many of you know he was defeated in the election of 1000 or 80 or so. One of the leading proponents of abolishing the college will not be in the Congress. He has been fighting that battle for many many years and has not been successful I would guess if now that he's defeated the prospects of that taking place that change taking place is much much less now. OK we've been speaking this morning with Roger Frank who is a member of the Electoral College one of 10 in Minnesota. And have you been

contacted by the governor's office yet Roger. No no but I'm but I'm sure I will I think it would be in spite of the projections of the media until the state canvassing board meets I think it would be. Improper not the right word but it would be imprudent to contact electors I think that there is a very formalized Carlysle you can if you really can't afford to make a mistake and it pretty obvious to me that Mr Carter's won the election I'm sure but in Minnesota and everybody else knows that. But until the state canvassing board acts I don't think anyone should be contacting electors once that formal decision has been certified. Then the next step can take place but you watch government mark for a long time and so on and the government goes slow because once in a while it's such a serious job they can't make mistakes and they get panned for that occasionally and I think wrongfully many times but mistakes are something we try to avoid government.

OK so on the news and information service we will be listening for a report about December 15th and the Electoral College and we will know someone who actually took part in the process.