Interview with Paul Robeson Jr.

To start by asking you to talk about your mother's testimony before the committee and what you remember of it including for our viewers you know why she was called a mother was called before the McCarthy committee and there was a big distinction between the House Un-American Activities Committee. Which started out just about every year. My mother was called by the Senate that committee the so-called McCarthy committee which was considerably different than the House committee because it was much more threatening. The Senate was after sort of proven communist subversive spies that kind of thing. So that you were in much greater jeopardy if you were called by the McCarthy committee because you had to testify first in secret. If you refuse to calm a subpoena was much more serious

than trying to avoid being called by the House Un-American Activities Committee. So it was more threatening. That's one thing. So and also that one of the reasons they called my mother is it was clear they wanted wanted through her to get after my father who to them was was a much bigger catch. All Oshie in her own right by then I had established quite a presence as a progressive and as a fighter for civil rights on her own not just as quote Mrs. Robson. So it was in the context of a double threat to the family as a whole to her so that the preparation was very intense we had a very fine counsel. Milton Friedman who was an expert in testimony before specifically that committee I mean people specialize them. So she had a lot of preparation in how to deal with the question about

well are you a member of the Communist Party etc. etc. The difficulty there is that if you refused to answer. Which constitutionally have the right to do under the First Amendment. The existing laws had undermined the First Amendment to the extent that you could only refuse on the basis of the Fifth Amendment which says I refused to answer because it may incriminate me. Well that puts you in oppositional What do you have to hide. So it's in the public mind. If you did that in public you would be branded as since you won't say you're not a communist you must be one therefore you're subversive therefore you're unemployable. You can't even work in a factory because you're suspected subversive. So it ends your economic viability. And that was enough to intimidate people into

saying OK I give up. I'm not one. While And for most people I mean known communists were already and most of them had been prosecuted and were in jail. Under the Smith Act for which penalize you for being a member so. That was a whole different but assuming one wasn't and didn't know anybody who was. Once you answer the question you then had waived your Fifth Amendment rights which meant do you know anybody who you think might be. And you have to answer. In other words you then are made to be an informer. So especially when it involves family people. In this case well it's ropes and you've waived your Fifth Amendment is your husband what is your son one. Is your cousin one. Then she's between a rock and a hard place so just legally speaking she was in considerable jeopardy and.

If she answered in any way mistakenly she could put the entire family in jeopardy. So it's in that context well-briefed and it's interesting because we had like sessions a couple sessions where various people and one side of a dad did played the role of you know the council or McCarthy himself and there's a pretty good actor. So he could have you know and I wasn't bad in the council wasn't bad so mother had had some real some real practice. And the other thing about my mother is she was very able in a situation like that she had a background in science and she was an excellent public speaker very quick mind and very fast on her feet and fearless as a personality. So she was good. I

mean she was really good actually I kidded there's a better she's going than you. By you might say too much stuff you know out of it. And he said yeah you're right. So in any case she went down and the rest is history. The the. In camera in other words the secret testimony which McCarthy took to test out witnesses to get the people he's the bully in the public session. Mother decided it's part of the strategy to be very quiet and laid back at the secret testimony so he would color it in public. At which point she planned to get after him in every way before she said OK I use the Fifth Amendment. And she would get a lot of like send out every question. And she chose her base for doing that. The issue of

segregation in the United States that this persecution and of people generally and the erosion of civil rights has to do with the racist history of the. American politics and society and so on. So as a black woman I'm here representing life people struggle against that so she stayed as much as possible within that which would disadvantage. McCarthy who predictably sort of was put a well we're not racist here. So she had the advantage and in the public testimony kept it at least I think reading would show that the whole way until he finally said Well you're probably not a party member and this and that. I hope you become less naive or something like that but you're a nice lady please go home. Thank you very much. And mother was quite polite and so on and that was that. But she had certainly want to a clear. Victory over

her in the public testimony so it was quite sensational then because people had been badly trampled especially in the public testimony because most of them were the weaker witnesses. What was it like for your family then as you had mentioned before that there wasn't just scrutiny there for your mother and your father but for the whole family. There was a lot of concern. I mean Mother I have to say was truly fearless. I guess even she was. I mean you're you're not you're crazy if you're not scared of situations like that. But she carried it off amazingly well and was in a good psychological mode to deal with it. I think we all were concerned because we were well aware of the danger and there was also a physical danger that went with it because if you were branded as a subversive then you

were. Sort of a target for every right wing or not or. Well I mean you were one of the people who was would be a natural target for all sorts of violence and that at the time we were mother was still and the family was still based in the house. That although it was up for sale in Enfield and it's right on the main highway so we'd be sitting ducks. As I recall what's wonderful about it and feel than I'll never forget this and the parents of it is that the neighbors and the community was totally supportive. Not that Into Slavery necessarily agreed with our politics but we were neighbors we were people that they knew. And by gum nobody was going to mess with us and they just rallied around in a very moving way so I'd say one of my best

memories of that time is the total solidarity of all of our neighbors and everybody in the community many of whom were Republicans and quite conservative that's got nothing to do with the personal stuff you got a right out of the Constitution that whatever views you have we don't care what kind of is you may be or not be that's your business. There was just no issue and that was one say the least very very moving for all of us and something that it's a warm spot in all of our hearts for Enfield in the community ever since. When you look at that time you were there from 41 to 53. So just about when I went to college and then Maryland I was married in 1940 and and settled in New York. And of course that traveled a lot but the sort of the home days until 53 was was in fields. But you must have always I mean this trouble for your father really began much earlier and much earlier

surely the government being aware of his what they would consider well actually interestingly enough. I have a great deal on the Freedom of Information Act of material FBI CIA intelligence of all kinds. HUGE files. I mean tens of thousands. I've got about 5 6000 pages worth. But there are tens of thousands that exist or existed and since nineteen thirty nine forty the FBI was very much into surveillance of him. And by 1942 Hoover had made a special project of going after Paul Robson. Interesting. Although he was immensely popular throughout the U.S. except in the South until forty nine and even an IQ 46 after he had testified before the House Un-American Activities Committee. He was still the most popular concert singer in America

the next season one thousand forty six forty seven. The last best concert tour he ever had. So although he was considered subversive by the government the people didn't consider him that way at all and his views were well-known. OK. That is all well known throughout the 40s and he was radical then as he was later even more so to some degree I think. During the Roosevelt administration of World War 2 when the Soviet Union was our ally it was no big deal. But then when the Cold War occurred everything switched and he didn't use. It's not that he became more or less radical he just continued with the same views he always had and the country saw around to a completely different stance. Went far to the right and that happened not under a Republican administration but if you recall under Truman's a ministration So the

serious intense persecution of Paul Robeson was begun under the Truman administration not by the battle Republicans my party included. So there is a lesson in that. The erosion of civil rights then and now is a bipartisan thing not just quote right wing Republicans or right wing Democrats. It's you know it's so hard to think of how to ask a question to you about your father because they're so there's so much about him. But if you were to look and try to define what his career was a about was it more about the politics than the performance or more. How would you encapsulate it. The other way around. The first volume of my book is called the undiscovered pull ropes and the first one is called an artist's journey that's the first half of his life to 1939 the second half is called the Prophet's

Quest. I'd say he grew up as a preacher's son and he in one sense was always a preacher's son. And I would say his his singing his use of his artistry especially his voice singing was something like Martin Luther King in his sermons. Same culture same preachers Son same idea in our culture we call it you see Grace and some get there very few Learn to give grace. That was he was about that. He was about giving grace this voice. But when. He reached the point where. He felt and he felt that he owed that talent to do something with it for humanity as a whole but especially for African-Americans as a whole.

He was on top of the world. They call him America's number one negro whatever that's worth. In 1944. He felt it not nothing unless you lift while you climb unless all 15 million then African-Americans had the same option as he did not one by one bit by bit. Not just the middle class and I just the top 10 20 percent. So I think that the collision his collision with quota system was cultural more than political. I asked him once what what his priorities were well he said I'm a I'm a human being first African-American second and whatever politics as Third although I'm of course one that I forgot that and I this was a clear set of priorities and above all I'd say he was a person of the Spirit even more than of the intellect.

We had an extraordinary intellect. But I'd say he was one of the few who could give him a sense give grace something like I think of Martin Luther King. I do. I think of Nehru. As I think of if you picked a politician. Other than there or from the west. It's the visionaries I think of interesting totally different personalities but the Russian Mikhail Gorbachev was just to give grace to to do something for humanity. Not even the main thing is to build a great nation. No it's more than that it's humanity so I think my father came from there and this is politics only makes sense in that context. Although he could be a pragmatist all kinds of things. But I think that's the core of him.

So when you look at this particular event of the transcripts being released reminds us of that time McCarthyism. You look at that time and then you look at this time here and you see some parallels. I do. I do. The first one is is political in that I think the threat is much greater. First technological in that the weapons of surveillance and intrusion and manipulation of the public through media and technology are vastly greater. Than what's now I have century ago. Secondly. The political system is more congealed. There is less opportunity for dissent. Less media less of a range of opinion that can be expressed through the regular media through the mass media. There is a

much lesser public consciousness. I mean we much more have been trained to think alike. And somebody who doesn't think the same way is immediately suspect some kind of way what or why do you have to be the sky at the garden party we want to we don't want to deal with that. The Russians actually have a wonderful phrase for they call it the knuckle moistly ashit which means it's a complicated sounding word and means. Sinker differently. Literally someone who thinks differently and that's that's a dissident. That's the word for dissidents. But we're getting there that people are beginning to be afraid to think differently for fear they're going to get in trouble. And that's sort of a self-censored that's even greater today than then.

Interestingly enough and it happened then under a Democratic administration is when McCarthyism began. So there's this image that many of us sometimes fall into well this kind of stuff with only those bad old right wing Republicans do this. It's not true. It's it's it's part of our system and way of thinking. And the most important thing is to just draw those parallels. The other thing that's significant is that. In our family. The cutting edge of resistance to the committees turned out to be my mother not my father. Early harbinger of the modern women's movement. Don't be afraid to go where nobody tried before. That's my mother and half a century later her time has come as well this is one of the Renaissance woman.

Of her time who would have been recognised as a renaissance woman had she not chosen to be Mrs. Robeson. So the CI devoted most of her life to this extraordinary man who she knew could do more for humanity at large than she could even in two lifetimes and therefore made the enormous sacrifice Well you know I'll help him do that that's my contribution. That's extraordinary. Extraordinary. So what are the lessons there for us. Go with your heart. Not just with your mind. Above all do what you think is right even if it means sacrifice rather than just going along to get along. In the end you don't have to live with yourself so maybe success at any price. Or the sort of the motto winning is not only everything it's the only thing. Maybe that's not the way to

go. I think that's the most important thing. Then I think people individually and collectively you know as much as people in my family have suffered in this country it's a great country and a great people. If we just. Learn to to do the right thing as we feel it. There's no mystery about that. We if were decent healthy people we weep. If we go with our feelings on the average we're not going to go wrong if we deny them we're going to be in a heap of trouble. I want to ask you a little bit about your childhood yet such an interesting rearing. What do you think your parents did for you in terms I mean they expose you to a different type of schooling. Can you describe that a little bit what that's done for you. Well first of all I got two distinctly different

things from my two parents of the very different people and yet it made it coherent whole. I think from from my father. Some of his focus on the greater vision outer and inner. From my mother. I got. This feeling of you can do anything you decide to do. Anybody Don't worry about there's no path there is nothing to stop you and she both of them demonstrated that and in real life themselves and in their relationship with me the most important thing they did together for me is help make me my own person. This free me to be my own person. So I wasn't terminally ill for a whole life which many people are sort of under your parents

even till the day you die. Their message was go for it. It don't follow our paths. Make your own you know whatever you want to do that but that's fine with me I'm not waiting for you to sing your first note although you probably have got a good voice and this and that. But then there was this wonderful great sense of humor he said but if you decide to be a you know an actor and singer I would suggest that you leave Old Man River and old fellow to me. Pick something that's your own message was do your own thing never imitate someone else. The only important people singing people are originals. Be an original. Which was a great message given his stature. I mean for you it's almost irresistible you want to be like you like that. He helped me go a different way.

And yet you certainly have taken on a responsibility for what they have. But their history and their legacy. Yes because I think they both had something to offer humanity. I mean they sound a little pompous but I don't mean it in that way. They shared their gifts and in their accomplishments trials and errors and all. I think lessons great are lessons to be learned. And so to that degree I think I have a responsibility to pass on the knowledge with commentary but not guidance. In other words them as them. Unfiltered check them out. And on the other hand I think I've learned enough hopefully enough humility from my father was a humble man in the best sense. Not to try and dress them up from my point of view that warts and all. Just

put them up there they don't need my help. They'll do fine on their own. I think that's sometimes a difficult lesson to learn because one's ego wants to sort of well I'm going to put them in the history books. You want to avoid that just let them speak for themselves. You know something about. My father that was an intangible and people that was bigger than than what you saw and even what you experience but he left you with something that and there were two people who described that in the better I think than I could one was James Baldwin who said of Paul Robeson. He gave us the power to perceive and the courage to resist. On us

more spiritual level. Bishop Jacqueline Hobart is a presiding bishop of the Aimee Zion Church you look at you which was my father's a funeral which was in his brother's church mother Zion Church in Harlem and he said it's part of the eulogy was taken from the Galatians of the Bible and the theme of it is let no man trouble me because I bear on my body the marks of Jesus. He said Paul bears on his body the marks of Jesus. But no cross no crown. It was worth it. Don't mourn for him. Organize somehow that that says it all of what people got from him and how they felt about that. I mean he did endure so much in terms of persecution but he wasn't a martyr it was part of his job is what Bishop was saying and you can there. I think

what he meant and what the dad was saying and in various ways. You can bear on your body the marks of Jesus you can aspire to live your life like Jesus in other words. But remember that you cannot be like Him you can only aspire to live your life according to Jesus is not the king but the path. So those who think literally I can be like Jesus and suffer from it. A a kind of self-defeating. Arrogance that's not what any religion not just the image of Jesus is about. It's about a way and that's internal. Not if I can do this I can be a king. You see and I think that insight which Ted had as a young man and which the bishop

Hobart was was emphasizing an interruption something that not just in the United States but everywhere in the world. This Modern World. People need to internalize in their own way whether you're a nonbeliever a believer a Buddhist from Islam anywhere that's a human thing which is internal to the nature to everything. These are very wise words to say the least. So you mean it in the end you think your father was was at peace with what happened they never felt the injustice I mean what happened to him. Well I think he felt the injustice but he felt that he and he knew this was going to happen. My fact he didn't think he would survive. He felt that he would be killed in 1949 and he had come come to terms with that. As it turned out he wasn't. But he

knew the price he would have to pay any paid it willingly because it came with the territory. If you if you decide that even becoming a profit this is antithetical to an artist an artist isn't built to be a profit not his job. He wasn't supposed to be doing what Martin was doing but there wasn't anybody else to do it then. So he went and did it. I think I think that he and he said after all this and I'm 58 and in London I remember he was asked just this question aren't you better don't you want to get even with us. He said no. He thought of it and said If you want freedom you have to suffer sometime. That was it.