On the Record; 002; Interview with Kevin Sullivan and Robert Genuario

The following is an original. Thank you. I'm Bob Douglas and welcome to On The Record Our guest this week our state senator Kevin Sullivan. He is a Democrat from West Hartford. He was re-elected to a fourth term and he's a deputy majority leader and he co-chairs the Education Committee in the general assembly. And we welcome state senator Robert Janeiro. He is a Republican from Norwalk. He also has been re-elected to a second term. He serves as an assistant minority leader and he is the ranking Republican member of the Education Committee. Joining us is Peter urban of the Meriden record Journal. Welcome to both of you thanks for joining us on our program today. Senator Robert Sullivan a week ago when the legislature opened governor

Weicker proposed a desegregation process he didn't call it a plan it got enormous reaction not only in Connecticut but really throughout the country. Do you take that proposal in that plan is something serious that you're going to have to deal with this session. The governor certainly knows how to steal the show from the get go and I think he's done this a couple of other things so far that have had that impact. It raises a very serious issue that's been out there for a long time in the state of Connecticut and that is the issue of equal opportunity and equal outcomes of strong outcomes for kids. The Education Committee will take this proposal seriously particularly to the degree that it talks about a process rather than any particular outcome gives people a kind of bottom up opportunity to think about it talk about it. I think we're going to be a little concerned about making that process broader than he has. But it's a good starting point for an important discussion. What was the reaction or was there much of a

reaction and with Harford you're one of those towns right next to Hartford. I think it depends A different kinds of reactions and first of all I would say on the whole I think the reaction has been one of understanding that there is an issue that has to be talked about that we have to continue to deal with. Obviously when you translate that down to the individual parent whether that parents in Hartford or West Hartford and what the consequences may or may not be for the child the parents going to be concerned about one thing no matter what their philosophy is and that is what's best for my kid what's going to assure that after we're done with this process. My child's going to learn better it's going to have a better opportunity than before. So I'd say the overall reaction has been one of somewhat watchful waiting. Not a closing of doors but also I don't think an embrace of any particular solution. Senator what's your read on the waker speech and the proposal that he put before thought to put forth before you and your colleagues on. Similarly I think that the governor obviously addressed an issue that need to be

addressed and he put it in the forefront of the General Assembly. There's no question that there are problems particularly in our urban school systems and perhaps more emphasis in many of my colleagues would feel that more emphasis been put on not just the question of desegregation integration but also on addressing the issue of quality and in urban school systems. I don't think the governor would disagree with that I think that's an integral part of any of any any solution. And most importantly I think that we have to understand that the governor is proposing a vehicle is giving local communities and regions an opportunity to address that issue. I think people are concerned about what types of specifics will follow what types of specifics the governor will try to tie to those to those requests and those studies. But that's the type of stuff that

legislative sessions are made up in. And I think people are anxious to get on with it. We got the way the way it's written now there doesn't seem to be any incentives for the schools to participate for other towns there's no carrots and sticks that they call as they call it. Do you see that as a problem do you think towns are going to jump in board and want to deal with this problem or do you think it's going to be another one of these things where a study is made and then it's put off. Well I think to the extent to talk about carrot and sticks it's the reality of the fact that solutions cause some solutions cost money. If a series of school systems get together and decide that they want to promote a magnet school. To address some of the problems that the governor has raised a magnet school costs money. If two systems want to get together and voluntarily allow their students to interact and to attend classes in each other's systems

that results in transportation and transportation costs money. So I think all school systems are wary of the fact that these solutions or many of the solutions that that might come about from this are solutions that are going to cost dollars and they don't want to be in a position where they have to fund these solutions out of their current operating budgets around the local tax base. That's a that's a real concern. Indeed one of the objections from urban legislators that I've started to hear is that if there is a net cost and I suspect the governor will before February comes and goes. We're talking a little bit more about incentives and sanctions that if there is a net cost of this is that going to be at the expense of in the short term at least the great majority of kids in cities who are already behind the eight ball in terms of the quality of their schools the quality of their programs in the quality of their education. So I think that's an important ingredient in this debate.

I think you know that one of the things that. Concern that's raised is what happens if you do have the magnet schools or the shared programs. In the past what seems to have happened with magnet schools is the brighter kids move to those the ones that have already some incentive to learn or the kids that are athletic who want to get into a program of football program go to another town. But the kids that are really need the help are left there in the urban schools. Do you think that there is some other solution other than just mandate mandating bussing that they can really look at. That seems to be the fear in the towns that that's what's This is ultimately going to come down to that. I think we're a long way away from mandated busing. I don't think there is the support for the act. Throughout the system throughout the state throughout the system throughout the legislature so I think we're a long way away from mandated busing. The point you address is a very valid one and one of the things we have to look

at. But that's one of the reasons that we can't just look at a magnet school as a replacement school or a intra district cooperation as a replacement effort. We really have to get to the heart the heart of the urban school system. And if some of the some of the students in the urban school systems are going to these magnet schools we have to look at the best way to educate the students who choose not to go to the magnet schools or who are not encouraged to go to the magnet school. We also want to look at student counseling. In the urban level want to see whether there are students who have the ability to make that transition but have never been encouraged to do that. But counselors cost money too. And there needs to be a net increase in educational opportunity I think that's one of the rish issues with bussing it's one of the issues with a lot of some of the magnet proposals we see they seem to be just duplicating on a magnet basis moving kids around to do the same things they ought to be doing back home in their regular schools. If we can connect this for example in early childhood where we know we can make a difference and we're

doing very little in this state compared to what we need to do if you can say to parents in an area in an series of towns something that's not happening for your kid where you are right now can happen for your child you'll be net better off then I think you make a more persuasive case to the public on this issue. What's your level of concern about what may be the result of this now ongoing chef vs. on a case being played out in the courts. The governor warning that we may have something that the courts may very well decide and we meaning the legislature and your constituents won't be deciding what your level of concern of what might be the result of this court case. I think there's some hysteria at this point if we look back on the Horton case and remember that we've had Horton One important to a nearly Horton three courts do not in the first instance even if they were to rule against the state of Connecticut in this case and I don't think that's a foregone conclusion. But even if the court would rule against the state it's certainly not my expectation and history doesn't bear out that the

court is going to suddenly impose some sort of solution. What they're going to do is essentially as the governor has done is turn to the legislature and say yes we have found a constitutional impairment. Now you divine and will keep jurisdiction will keep an eye on what you do. You divine a solution to this. So I think in a sense whether that court case was there or not this issue exists. We probably would still need to be dealing with it. Your level of concern why I think that the the importance of the court case if nothing else is that it has raised the level of attention. Governor I think is absolutely correct not to wait until the court decision is over. It's an issue that the legislature should be addressing probably should've started addressing long before this and to the extent that the the court case has been an impetus to this or is the defense of some people are saying well we really do have to look at this. I think that's a positive. I think that's a positive but. But I think that this is something that the legislature working with the governor can handle particularly if we use

the the the the system of going to local boards of education and allowing them to combine and use their creativity and their skills. If the legislature devises something without that input they're going to be looking at numbers and quotas and this and that back up at the local boards of education. And even working in an intra district cooperative fashion they would be concerned with what's happening in the schools. And you're going to have a better solution and a better. Better cooperation among parents teachers administrators throughout the region. Implementing what is ultimately decided as members of the Education Committee how frustrated are you when you see mastery tests results and some came out this week and they're still very bad particularly in the inner cities very poor for example. Again in the city of Hartford It's not like the taxpayers of the state of Connecticut and the legislature is not pouring significant amounts of

money in the Hartford's and in the New Haven's and in the Bridgeport says the both of you would know very well and you have to the results say year after year. They don't seem very bright or Oh Bob I've made this point a little at the beginning of this of this program and that is that there is a a second piece to the discussion and the second piece is qualitative output. What is the result. What are we seeing as a result some of the testimony in the Chef cases very dramatically in a strange way made this made this point. What happened to the money. Where did it go. The fact that there's testimony that kids don't have pencils in the classroom suggests to me that there is something fundamentally wrong in what's being done to allocate those funds that they're not finding their way to the children of the city they're not having the result that we want. Now I would also say to you that it makes it a bigger case for remembering we have to focus generally on qualitative improvement. It's not just the cities. I can show you some very sound suburban and rural communities that are 40 percent of their kids 45 percent of their kids

are not performing the way we would want them to in the mastery tests. There's a bigger issue here that has to be connected. That's quality and that's performance lose sight of that and we lose sight of everything that's important. Senator are we getting our money's worth. Well you know if you look at the systems in Bridgeport New Haven at Harvard and you ask do we have quality education systems. And then you step back from the education system itself and you say these are cities that have vast amounts of poverty. Business is leaving crime and drugs. And then you ask yourself. Why do we have difficult difficulties in our school systems there. Connecticut as a whole has to address the problem of its urban communities in general. Education is a component of it but there's nothing the education committee can do or the legislature can do to improve urban school systems in a vacuum. There are things that can be done. There are specific programs that

ought to be done but the legislature also has to seriously look at the problems of our urban communities and that's you know that's a topic and methods upon which we've been discussing for years and the governor is also trying to inform the states attention to that. One of the things that we ought to be looking at specifically in the educational area is is strengthening and beefing up our opportunities for pre-kindergarten programs. Most of the research and most of the educators would agree that if you're talking about a large pool of disadvantaged children that come from a community of disadvantaged children. That if they have not had the opportunities that some of the suburban children have had in nursery schools and pre-K programs that they started a tremendous disadvantage. The state really ought to be looking at that as a place where we can get a good bang for its buck where we can get the most quality out of out of our public school expenditures. You know there are a few poses that have been made already some

suggestions of what can be done. Some of them include more having like a high school equip equivalent graduation exam and trying to make it more accountable putting some tougher standards out there and other proposals to lengthen the school day. Your committee is going to be taking a look at these. Do you see any of these things coming through or where do you see improvements that are actually going to come out this year for those of you know what we've done I mean last year I think it was we have put in place a 10th grade mastery instrument. We have put in place a process of certifying on the records of students whether they were successful or not and that speaks of some lack of confidence I guess in the traditional high school diploma. We have legislation not only lengthening the school year but frankly extending downward the school attendance age. Few people realize that in Connecticut your kids really don't have to be in school until they're 7 and that's a fairly late start along the lines of what Bob suggesting about getting early

start for kids. I think those proposals are going to get very strong consideration to deal with early childhood proposals that deal with in some fashion strengthening the accountability and the performance of what we have in place will get fair consideration I remember once in the school year and you've just begun a debate about who's going to pay for it how much is it going to cost. And are you going to negotiate over that or not with the teachers. But I think they're going to get a strong consideration. Do you see anything that's going to come out this year that can specifically help the cities and or the cities any kind of legislation that is out there that may not cost a lot of money but may do something some good to improve the education there. Well I would I would hope that the legislature would pass the funding for a pre-K program directed at depending on how much funding is available directed at either all priority school districts or directed at the at that was where the problems are the most severe.

I think that that would be a huge step forward in addressing some of the problems that we have. I also think that there will be tremendous discussion about about funding of schools this year in the allocation of funds between cities and suburbs so you're going to see more of that as well. But yes there will be things that the legislature can do this year. One of the things that we what I think we have to be afraid of. Is the legislators taking the position that well we have a commission on educational excellence and their report isn't due for another year and we have the governor's proposal so if we if we devise a plan to allow the regional boards to get together and discuss this that we ought not to do anything too distinctive of this session and that would be a mistake. I think that education is in the spotlight. We have some momentum and I think it's an issue that we

want to we want to address the session to the extent that we can. Senator Sullivan to the to what extent is the budget crunch going to have on this whole idea of increasing or improving state aid to local communities in terms of education funding we're hearing figures of a 4 to 700 million dollar possible budget gap. There is supposed to be more state aid going to 169 towns this year. Are Zach going to be a serious problem for you and your colleagues. Well I think anything the budget is the issue of 1993 you know all of the benches again. The simple fact is that the program statutory growth of the general aid formula in education is roughly 300 million plus. We don't have that amount of growth virtually in the revenues of the state of Connecticut for all of the demands on the state budget so that isn't going to happen. The question really is. What are the priorities of the legislature I suspect Bob and I would rather be ready strongly that to the extent that there is any

additional money it ought to be in education I would make the additional cases here as it ought to be in early childhood. We're going to be competing with our colleagues who are saying no no you've got to look at my program I'm going to look at my demand on that on that budget. The one thing we have to be careful of and I think the governor has to be particularly careful of this in his bed message in February. The issue he has raised at the opening day sets a process in place. If he adds on to this as he has in the past a fight between city and suburb city and small town over reallocating education funding I think we're going to be hard pressed to have any ground made on either of those two issues which suggested whatever we can do in education let's do it in a very targeted way. Let's not go back into that formula. Let's let the commission do that and I do disagree with Bob in that respect let's not tinker. Let's not be compelled to legislate just because we're legislators. Let's do what we can in a very targeted way for the neediest highest taxed high as the highest need communities in the state.

Senator Connecticut says cities and towns. Are you telling your constituents to expect less this year or the same. Well they can read the papers very well and frankly we're looking forward to the governor's budget. I represent two different types of communities I represent an urban area and a suburban area. The suburban area already does not get that much funding from the state. I think they and they know that that money that they get is at risk. My particular district has always had some unique problems with with convincing the legislature that it is an urban area and needs the funding. But in recent years I think they've been successful in that case has been made so and I'm very optimistic that their funding will be maintained. We've got about 8 minutes left. Peter do you get. I want to get a little bit back to the the testing and such of the mastery tests. They're talking about redoing. They're going to come up with a new exam next

year with some tougher standards than they were already. The Department of Education was saying that don't expect the scores are going to be as good as they've been or the same the probably dropped a little bit. Do you see. It seemed to me that the test part of the world why they were doing it was to assess over time improvements in education do you see this change is changing that or how do you see this actually working in the future. Connecticut's had by national standards probably the very best assessment program the Connecticut mastery test in this country. What they're proposing and what in fact the legislature has asked them to do is to make sure that that test moves over time more in the direction of performing rather than just circling the right answer on a on a test form. Many states are moving in this direction as well. What you want to know particularly as you get along in

grades is not what little bits of information you have but can you do something with that information. Can you be presented with a problem and come up with a solution and give that back as the answer. We also want to make sure in the 10th and eighth grade that we're looking at more than just reading and writing language arts and math as important as they are we want to see some integration of those skills and science and social studies in the later grades that's where they're headed with the mastery test program. So what will I think as students much as the listening piece does now where you have to listen and then respond to take take the knowledge and show that you can apply it. We have among the highest paid school teachers in the entire country and usually in most towns people who work in education the administration are among the highest paid people in local communities. Do both of you sense that there is still considerable people support if you will constituent support out there for more money for education.

Senator Sullivan I think there is a general support for that principle but there probably is a more troubled level of commitment to it I mean the economy has undermined and everything in our own personal lives and our public lives in this respect I think people are more and more concerned than they ever have been about how much they can afford. My sense is that elementary and secondary education as a proposition still is very high in folks minds. Generally a sense that it's their children's education is pretty good that it ought to be where we put our dollars. But then the question is how many more dollars can I afford to put there. It's going to be hard. The public is supportive but not supportive at any cost. Senator Yeah I agree I would agree with that concept. And I think what is important to the public and I think one of the reasons is that over the last several years they've become a little disillusioned with it is that when they put more money into education they want to know that they're getting more out. We do have the highest paid teachers in the nation and that's as it should be we would that's something we

should be proud of. But there also comes a point when as a society we have to ask ourselves and as a state if we if the state of Connecticut and its municipalities collective collectively are going to put 3 percent a year or more into education over the course of the next three years three years from now do we want to have 9 percent more teachers reducing quiet class size and 9 percent more AIDS. Assisting students and 9 percent more materials to help them or that we want to have the same system with the same people getting 9 percent more. That's an issue that I think a lot of the population in the state of Connecticut is asking. And I I think there is an overall opinion that we have been fair. Two public sector employees on a broad basis that that has been a good thing to do. But right now we now that we have been fear we have to look at

how we get more and more services and more educational value. For the dollar additional dollars we put in at this juncture. Senator good. Do you see more money being put into it. Not specifically a learning programs that are in the school systems but some of the human service programs that people have talked about. School breakfast and such and a guidance counselor type of things where they might be able to deal with some of the concerns that you raised about the cities that have all these other problems as well other than just trying to educate the children. Well I think that particularly as our economy continues to stagger you'll see more and more and more crime more and more implementation of things like school breakfast programs. I think each district on its own has to make the decision as to whether it wants to put more money into counselors versus teachers versus aides. That's the type of

thing that differs from district to district the needs in Hartford are much different than the needs in Simsbury. And and I think that that is properly a decision that is best made on the local level. If more funding is given to the urban areas next year then certainly that's an that's an area that they want to look to spend that money in because that's a big need in the urban areas. On the other hand it would be silly for the state to suggest that that same need exists elsewhere let the Board of Education make that determination because the parents are going to clamor at the Board of Education if they don't think the money is being spent in a correct fashion. The center's only got about a minute and a half left. We haven't talked about higher education. Some of the issues that are going to be before your committee you think this session the health and status of higher education in the state. I think higher education is one it ought to worry us all because we really have as legislators have to take some blame for this and governor clearly in the state we've lost track a great deal of what's going on in higher ed in part it's been this focus on budget and in part it's been this focus on

elementary and secondary education. I think we're going to want to take a nother long look at the quality of the physical facilities we are offering in higher education and why the administration has not done more on the legislation we gave him a year and a half ago to start to repair the facilities that are out there. We will be taking a look at the issue of financial aid some redefinitions at the federal level are going to make more students in Connecticut eligible for financial aid but guess what. There's no more aid from Washington or anywhere else to help them with costs as costs go up. So I think those two issues as well as the issue of productivity teaching productivity and resource use in public higher ed are going to be a major focus for the community for the long year. Another tough agenda Gentlemen thank you very much for joining us we're out of time. Thank you for being with us this week. Our guests have been state senator Kevin Sullivan Democrat of West Hartford and state senator Robert Janeiro. He is a Republican from Norwalk. Our thanks to Peter urban of the Meriden record Journal and I'm Bob Douglas Please join us again next

time for another interview on the record.